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On April 11 2019 21:37 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 20:12 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 19:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 11 2019 18:18 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 16:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Polt & Bomber dominated mostly WCS where the big part of their victories come from. Talking about Mvp at 2019 as a loss to the scene is kinda weird when his prime was 2012. I don't know, that's like 7 years difference and 2 game releases later? MKP Prime(intended  ) time was what, 2011? Can we also mention Terrans lost iloveoov? (who would be more related to LotV than Mvp because he was the head coach in SKT T1). While I love all these Terrans and still miss them - let's be fair Both Bomber and Polt won a GSL title and they mostly beat koreans to win their other trophies. Also, Sniper and RorO won their only Premier Tournament before Mvp won his last while MKP reached HotSix final in December 2014; your point either doesn't hit the mark or affects players from both lists equally. Same applies to the Zergs. MKP in 2k14 wasn't the top Terran, I'm not denying he was good Terran, but his top time was 2k11. They(Bomber & Polt) mostly won against lower tier Koreans in WCS, let's not pretend those were top tier Koreans. Which GSL Bomber won? He won WCS Global tournament, IIRC he has never won GSL Code S. Maybe I'm blind(as my memory is bad) because I can't see it in Liquipedia either. Polt won Souper Tournament in 2k11 and we can discuss if it's a full-size GSL, from the race distribution it appears as GomTvT era Anyway, I didn't say they have never done anything against top Koreans, but the biggest part of their victories is from WCS so it's not like Korean scene is losing that many victories/titles. Taeja/ByuN/MMA are a totally different discussion. And I am still huge Bomber fanboy, I love him more than Maru. With those criteria, both Sniper's and RorO's victories in Code S shouldn't be valued since they happened during BLInfestor era. The main point here is that Terran lost many more top players than Zerg(and Protoss) or that they were not replaced by new players of the same caliber. The main reason I replied is that Terrans didn't lost that mnay premier tournaments in quality of the wins when talking about Polt/Bomber. Yes, they won some stacked tournaments but no, winning WCS NA shouldn't count as that was the "B tier" Korean tournament, we can call it Code B FFS even ForGG had bigger impact than Mvp or MKP in the past 5 years as he won a tournament over a damn Life! We have at least 3 top Terrans now - Maru, Innovation and TY, 2 good - Bunny and Gumi. Then we have Cure, Keen, aLive. And probably some more. And out of all this players only 1 qualified because he's a Code S monster and 1 managed to qualify through qualifications. Hurricane, Parting(the current one), Patience over Inno/TY/Bunny? With THOSE map PvT numbers? I just don't accept the "we lost terrans" argument.
Wait a second, I am not saying these last results in Super Tournament were due to the fact Mvp and MKP aren't playing anymore; there is indeed a trend for Protoss to win over Terran in korean qualifiers in 2019(I wouldn't personally go further into claims of Terran being underpowered).
On the other hand, denying Terran is the race that lost the highest amount of unreplaced players of high caliber seems delusional. Winning non korean WCS isn't necessarily a requisite for being a lower korean player; Duckdeok and Pigbaby weren't top players, Polt and Bomber were, I see no possible discussions here.
New Zerg rose to replace the ones who left(the notable exception being Life) while the majority of the best Protoss players are still around(and they can't do much more than dominating qualifiers, isn't it weird?).
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On April 11 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 07:31 Charoisaur wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same. Representative of what, exactly? This obsession for considering korean leagues only immensely narrows the perspective; TaeJa and Symbol are not players of the same caliber. The Terran who were listed shaped Starcraft 2, they were overall way more relevant than those Zerg.
I didn't say you should only consider korean leagues. It's a bad way to go about it. But only looking at the number of championship and treating them all the same like you did is even less representative. TaeJa has won 11 championships. Soulkey has won 1. But I'd argue they were both equally important for their race.
Out of those terran players listed more competed in foreign tournaments compared to Zerg players so they naturally have more championship.
You're just cherry-picking a statistic that fits your narrative.
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On April 11 2019 23:58 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 07:31 Charoisaur wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same. Representative of what, exactly? This obsession for considering korean leagues only immensely narrows the perspective; TaeJa and Symbol are not players of the same caliber. The Terran who were listed shaped Starcraft 2, they were overall way more relevant than those Zerg. I didn't say you should only consider korean leagues. It's a bad way to go about it. But only looking at the number of championship and treating them all the same like you did is even less representative. TaeJa has won 11 championships. Soulkey has won 1. But I'd argue they were both equally important for their race. Out of those terran players listed more competed in foreign tournaments compared to Zerg players so they naturally have more championship. You're just cherry-picking a statistic that fits your narrative.
It's actually the overall amount of Premier tournaments won by those players, if you call it cherrypicking…
I disagree, Soulkey was a preminent Zerg, the best of his race at times, but TaeJa occupies a higher spot in the history of Sc2.
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On April 12 2019 03:04 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 23:58 Charoisaur wrote:On April 11 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 07:31 Charoisaur wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same. Representative of what, exactly? This obsession for considering korean leagues only immensely narrows the perspective; TaeJa and Symbol are not players of the same caliber. The Terran who were listed shaped Starcraft 2, they were overall way more relevant than those Zerg. I didn't say you should only consider korean leagues. It's a bad way to go about it. But only looking at the number of championship and treating them all the same like you did is even less representative. TaeJa has won 11 championships. Soulkey has won 1. But I'd argue they were both equally important for their race. Out of those terran players listed more competed in foreign tournaments compared to Zerg players so they naturally have more championship. You're just cherry-picking a statistic that fits your narrative. It's actually the overall amount of Premier tournaments won by those players, if you call it cherrypicking… I disagree, Soulkey was a preminent Zerg, the best of his race at times, but TaeJa occupies a higher spot in the history of Sc2.
I don't know if you actually "cherry picked" the statistic but its a very skewed way to compare both groups.
If we decide to pick premier tournaments and use that as basis for comparison that should mean that all the players mentioned or at least both groups have had an equal number of opportunities to win tournaments.
Disregarding that foreign events like WCS are much easier to win (which kind of makes the comparison unfair too as others have mentioned) how many events are in korea and possible for most kespa players to take part in compared to koreans players signed to foreign teams playing internationally.
Lets look at the players mentioned.
Zerg: Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong.
Terran: MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking and Bomber.
If we remove the players that were signed to kespa(for the majority of their career) and thus unable to participate in most foreign tourneys and the players that just didn't travel outside of korea how would it look?
Zerg: Hyun and Jaedong.
Terran: Taeja, Polt, Byun, MMA, and Bomber.
Yes The terran players above have more championships than the zerg players. There are a lot of korean terrans that farmed WCS and foreign weekender tournaments that have left yes, they have a lot of victories but just like other posters have said that doesn't mean that Polt is greater than Soulkey just because of number of premier victories.
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EPT
