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Northern Ireland26108 Posts
On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran
Not just contenders, also people who actually won things as well, who actually took those steps.
Taeja without wrist problems? Who knows? People forget that Maru has been gradually getting better throughout the entirety of SC2 up to now where he hit god tier. People forget that Maru has been playing for a very, very long time, kind of like Serral. Both have been ever-improving for basically all of SC3 and they are were they are now. So the idea that a Healrgt Taeja wouldn’t be up there I think is wrong. Maru is as much a veteran as he would hypothetically be today
Byun did incredible things on his own and without the team structure too.
It’s just such a shame that these guys aren’t around today. I’m not a Terran player myself but I think the game benefits from relative racial parity at the highest level anyway, there’s more variation in games and it’s just generally more interesting.
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On April 10 2019 09:33 Vincenzo wrote:
I see a heated debate about T vP and Maru's performance.
From my experience, T v P is not balanced since 2018 regardless of Maru's success and the noise that it creates when analyzing the scene. He is an outlier but it is also true that 2 out of his 3 GSLS were against two mentally broken down Protoss (Zest and Stats played horrible those days). However, I value his wins against Dark (WESG) and TY (GSL), since his contenders did not lose their minds. Both finals were spectacular and ended up 4-3.
Having said this, with independence of Maru, to fix T v P, one option is to think about ''epic balanced matches'' and look at the state of the game at that time. For example, the IEM 2017 T v P finals of TY vs Stats, was won strategically, by mind games and slightly better decision making. But that was a very well played and balanced finals: two players of the same level, same team, that know perfectly each other. I enjoyed a lot watching the other day that series and it made me think that some changes like bringing back the old widow mines could help to balance the thing. It will not involve changes in Z or P and therefore will not affect the existing situation in Z v P.
I guess this is better than undertaking a radical change in the race as some people suggested in this thread.
I feel like the old widow mines made it so that P had to open with either Oracle or quick robo in order to protect yourself from the incoming mine drop. Both of those openings have pretty easy mid-games to abuse as Terran making the matchup that much harder for P.
I don't mind the upgrade, in order to make Widow Mines really useful, but it also gives the unit a pretty narrow use case.
Biggest problem is still an inflexible tier-3 late game (imo). Anyone tried Thors in late game TvP with any success?
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran
Most of these were lost already in HotS and they had no impact on LotV, if you check the start of LotV everything looks fine. (not necessary meaning it was fine  )
The only 2 big losses in the Terran department for LotV are Dream and ByuN. But maybe there's an issue with Terran if even Korea struggles to find them Maybe Blizzard needs to pay Classic to return to Terran
Soulkey? ByuL?
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On April 10 2019 10:26 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 09:33 Vincenzo wrote:
I see a heated debate about T vP and Maru's performance.
From my experience, T v P is not balanced since 2018 regardless of Maru's success and the noise that it creates when analyzing the scene. He is an outlier but it is also true that 2 out of his 3 GSLS were against two mentally broken down Protoss (Zest and Stats played horrible those days). However, I value his wins against Dark (WESG) and TY (GSL), since his contenders did not lose their minds. Both finals were spectacular and ended up 4-3.
Having said this, with independence of Maru, to fix T v P, one option is to think about ''epic balanced matches'' and look at the state of the game at that time. For example, the IEM 2017 T v P finals of TY vs Stats, was won strategically, by mind games and slightly better decision making. But that was a very well played and balanced finals: two players of the same level, same team, that know perfectly each other. I enjoyed a lot watching the other day that series and it made me think that some changes like bringing back the old widow mines could help to balance the thing. It will not involve changes in Z or P and therefore will not affect the existing situation in Z v P.
I guess this is better than undertaking a radical change in the race as some people suggested in this thread.
I feel like the old widow mines made it so that P had to open with either Oracle or quick robo in order to protect yourself from the incoming mine drop. Both of those openings have pretty easy mid-games to abuse as Terran making the matchup that much harder for P. I don't mind the upgrade, in order to make Widow Mines really useful, but it also gives the unit a pretty narrow use case. Biggest problem is still an inflexible tier-3 late game (imo). Anyone tried Thors in late game TvP with any success?
P still has Immortals.
What about Cattlebruisers? Everyone loves Cattlebruiser and you have the tech setup anyway with ranged Libs. Maybe some changes to Yamato only so it can't be abused in the early game. Higher range (Tempest range) or AoE damage? Or another upgrade entirely which also needs a fusion core, like +1 range
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Looking at the bracket, looks like another soO finals boys
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Northern Ireland26108 Posts
I don’t think HoTs/Legacy is that important a cutoff point, the main point of transition was when the Kespa players got to grips with the switch
Then the best players already in the scene plus the best of the new arrivals constituted the top players with an even higher level of play, which pushed players who couldn’t quite keep up out of championship relevancy.
It has been the same players for really quite some time, across all 3 races. The best HoTs players either left the scene or were still the best players in Legacy
Sure Dream was a loss to his race too, but so was Flash. He got so irritatingly hyped sometimes in a way that wasn’t his fault that there’s a tendency to underrate him if anything for the player he actually was, especially as he was getting better.
Mvp is legit too long ago to speculate too much, although it’s fun anyway. He’s only a year older than Classic after all. Plus a smarter player than most (or at least good at following a plan, I’m not privy to how he prepped his builds and gameplans).
Taeja was a beast in his day, quite conceivably would have got better. Who doesn’t love Bomber and Polt?
Interesting tidbit from Ty’s trivia. I knew it was true when I read it but, one of those that you double take on initially - He is the second Terran player to reach the GSL finals since Mvp in 2012, the first being INnoVation.
Which was some 4 years? In the less than 4 years since then we’ve had Byun win a GSL, Gumigod win one, Inno win another and Maru do a three-peat.
Tournament racial splits are something else, as a viewer I care now about that than if a particular race ultimately wins it, if it’s a weekend tournament anyway. In that respect looking back at least over GSLs even then it’s not that horrific by that metric either.
And still, none of that particular matters regarding matchup balance as it currently stands today.
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Anyone know why DRG no-show again?... I just want to see him play in premier event again.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 10 2019 18:23 Wombat_NI wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I don’t think HoTs/Legacy is that important a cutoff point, the main point of transition was when the Kespa players got to grips with the switch
Then the best players already in the scene plus the best of the new arrivals constituted the top players with an even higher level of play, which pushed players who couldn’t quite keep up out of championship relevancy.
It has been the same players for really quite some time, across all 3 races. The best HoTs players either left the scene or were still the best players in Legacy
Sure Dream was a loss to his race too, but so was Flash. He got so irritatingly hyped sometimes in a way that wasn’t his fault that there’s a tendency to underrate him if anything for the player he actually was, especially as he was getting better.
Mvp is legit too long ago to speculate too much, although it’s fun anyway. He’s only a year older than Classic after all. Plus a smarter player than most (or at least good at following a plan, I’m not privy to how he prepped his builds and gameplans).
Taeja was a beast in his day, quite conceivably would have got better. Who doesn’t love Bomber and Polt?
Interesting tidbit from Ty’s trivia. I knew it was true when I read it but, one of those that you double take on initially - He is the second Terran player to reach the GSL finals since Mvp in 2012, the first being INnoVation.
Which was some 4 years? In the less than 4 years since then we’ve had Byun win a GSL, Gumigod win one, Inno win another and Maru do a three-peat.
Tournament racial splits are something else, as a viewer I care now about that than if a particular race ultimately wins it, if it’s a weekend tournament anyway. In that respect looking back at least over GSLs even then it’s not that horrific by that metric either.
And still, none of that particular matters regarding matchup balance as it currently stands today.
Well, the point is that I believe the balance is fine, it's a design issue of Terran and LotV. That's why I ignore HotS Terrans. I don't like SC2 Flash but he was a good Terran we lost, yes, KeSPA going away was a bad move and we lost some good Terrans, but it didn't seem as an impact until 2017-ish and 2018 is a disaster if you remove Maru and Serral as both are statistically anomalies(don't remember the term and removing Serral is just to be fair, it doesn't have much impact on the Zerg side of things IMO).
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Northern Ireland26108 Posts
On April 10 2019 17:35 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 10:26 renaissanceMAN wrote:On April 10 2019 09:33 Vincenzo wrote:
I see a heated debate about T vP and Maru's performance.
From my experience, T v P is not balanced since 2018 regardless of Maru's success and the noise that it creates when analyzing the scene. He is an outlier but it is also true that 2 out of his 3 GSLS were against two mentally broken down Protoss (Zest and Stats played horrible those days). However, I value his wins against Dark (WESG) and TY (GSL), since his contenders did not lose their minds. Both finals were spectacular and ended up 4-3.
Having said this, with independence of Maru, to fix T v P, one option is to think about ''epic balanced matches'' and look at the state of the game at that time. For example, the IEM 2017 T v P finals of TY vs Stats, was won strategically, by mind games and slightly better decision making. But that was a very well played and balanced finals: two players of the same level, same team, that know perfectly each other. I enjoyed a lot watching the other day that series and it made me think that some changes like bringing back the old widow mines could help to balance the thing. It will not involve changes in Z or P and therefore will not affect the existing situation in Z v P.
I guess this is better than undertaking a radical change in the race as some people suggested in this thread.
I feel like the old widow mines made it so that P had to open with either Oracle or quick robo in order to protect yourself from the incoming mine drop. Both of those openings have pretty easy mid-games to abuse as Terran making the matchup that much harder for P. I don't mind the upgrade, in order to make Widow Mines really useful, but it also gives the unit a pretty narrow use case. Biggest problem is still an inflexible tier-3 late game (imo). Anyone tried Thors in late game TvP with any success? P still has Immortals. What about Cattlebruisers? Everyone loves Cattlebruiser and you have the tech setup anyway with ranged Libs. Maybe some changes to Yamato only so it can't be abused in the early game. Higher range (Tempest range) or AoE damage? Or another upgrade entirely which also needs a fusion core, like +1 range
I hate Battlecruisers outside of novelty, likewise Carriers. They just lack micro potential, Carriers could have it if they worked more like in BW, but they don’t alas.
I generally hate airballs vs airballs in SC2 because they circumvent terrain for one, and just generally suck.
A Yamato with that range, combined with scans is 100% uncounterable by Zerg if you get to those super lategame scenarios. Tempests you can soft counter by denying vision at least. Scan, Yamato Broods or vipers, retreat back, repeat.
A Yamato with splash will just melt everything unless the splash is really quite low, in which case it doesn’t really fill any useful holes in the Terran arsenal.
Terran has, in totality the best and most well-designed units in the game. Unfortunately you can’t use them, it’s not possible. Outside of being hard as hell to control them all, it’s relative production inflexibility added to gameflow as well.
The risk/reward flips the longer a game goes in terms of offensive options in being out on the map, which doesn’t help either, which I think brings problems.
An early nydus build that’s aggressive is risky and basically has to do a lot of damage, likewise a big warp prism pressure (as in, actually warps units in, not your variant where it carries a few units and you lift micro and poke).
Later in games Terran has to commit more and more to get anything done, and Protoss and Zerg have to commit very little.
You get to fly a warp prism in and decide based on what you see whether to warp in tons of zealots, or you can fly away and not do that. Likewise a Zerg can just run back through a nydus if it’s not looking a good idea.
I wouldn’t give Terran similar tools, probably nerf those a bit and, indirectly that gives Terran more offensive options by default. If you can’t get backstabbed quite as hardcore, you can move out more aggressively.
You can’t nerf too much about the prism without breaking PvZ though. Zergs are too good, creep spread is too far out to push with pylon warpins. You shouldn’t be able to cancel warpins without cost as you can currently, that’s my real issue with it vs T in a risk/reward sense. A cancel generally only occurs when you’ve miscalculated or your opponent has reacted really well, which is a mistake IMO and there should be some cost, say 50%. Sniping a warp prism you should lose 100% of the cost.
Protoss are generally mineral dumping and have a lot to spare when they’re doing this. As it stands their economic commitment is say, 1000 minerals and 10 zealots wrecking your production/workers, 0 for an ‘oh shit’ cancel and fly your Prism away, or the cost of a prism if it gets sniped. A failed attempt should cost more, when a success has you warping units right into an enemy base.
I think Zerg players are severely underusing nydus canals in the late game, after enthusiastically adopting them in other phases. I think we’ll see them being too strong when this changes.
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Some fair points about Yamato changes, I agree
With the latter half of your post I have to partially disagree though. 1 Ghost can be enough, Nukes and EMP's are extremely powerful with almost no cost! And they are invisible FFS.
There is so little APM wasted on the Terran side and a LOOOOOT on the other side.
Also 2 Medivacs full of bio can kill Protoss production or Zerg tech quite easily and is not a big commitment at all in the late game. You can even scan where / if it's safe to go in
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Northern Ireland26108 Posts
On April 10 2019 20:36 Harris1st wrote:
Some fair points about Yamato changes, I agree
With the latter half of your post I have to partially disagree though. 1 Ghost can be enough, Nukes and EMP's are extremely powerful with almost no cost! And they are invisible FFS.
There is so little APM wasted on the Terran side and a LOOOOOT on the other side.
Also 2 Medivacs full of bio can kill Protoss production or Zerg tech quite easily and is not a big commitment at all in the late game. You can even scan where / if it's safe to go in
They can, the danger period isn’t really the late game though, it’s the mid-game.
You’re teching, relatively unit thin and spread out across 3 bases. Throughout all of SC2, through all the various all-ins Terran have come up with this has always, always been the consistent period where Protoss is vulnerable (albeit 2 basss instead of 3 back in the day.
Late game not so much, your eco has kicked in, you have tons of warpgates to reactively warp-in, and you have better observer coverage, you’ve got money for cannons
Zerg too. There are phases of the game where you have to be super aware, split units properly to defend drops. Later in games you have enough money to plug quite a few holes, also your creep spread tends to give you more general map vision by then.
The other risk of dropping and one I don’t think is talked about as much, is it either makes your main bio army worse the fewer vacs you have, or makes your liberator/air transition harder.
Any medivac lost is either lost, or if replaced cuts into the production time of your Starports
Protoss need one warp prism to ferry tons of usually zealots to wherever you can find a safe spot. If you do lose it you lose a lot of potential aggressively, replacing one prism isn’t a massive deal in locking down your robo.
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Maru would have a much better chance for this tournament, if he ends up 2nd in GSL. Top half of the bracket is stacked
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On April 10 2019 21:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Maru would have a much better chance for this tournament, if he ends up 2nd in GSL. Top half of the bracket is stacked
That makes sense: Get second in a tournament that pays 150.000 $ and 25K WCS points to have a chance in a tournament thats pays 25% of that
More serious: ST is not Maru's tournament anyway. This will the "comeback" of Stats! Upper bracket is stacked nicely!
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On April 10 2019 22:00 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 21:32 Geo.Rion wrote:
Maru would have a much better chance for this tournament, if he ends up 2nd in GSL. Top half of the bracket is stacked
That makes sense: Get second in a tournament that pays 150.000 $ and 25K WCS points to have a chance in a tournament thats pays 25% of that More serious: ST is not Maru's tournament anyway. This will the "comeback" of Stats! Upper bracket is stacked nicely!
wasnt suggesting that Maru should throw the code S finals :D just saying, upper half looks sick
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terran banned? or is blizzard still not able to balance tvp? sad. dead game-.-
User was warned for this post
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On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak.
it's not only "feels like" since long time it's like save call... and blizzard don't get it at all... terran is not playable against protoss, it's so obvious... every match where same level of pro vs ter pro will win, showed in all EU, US and especially KOR matches... maru is just like the exception proves the rule! so sad, one cannot watch this game anymore due to imbalance..
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Anyone else think it'll be Dark vs. sOs in the finals?
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On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran
Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong.
That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost.
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On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost.
Agree...and I've been on here for years, I only just realized your name wasn't "chairosaur". TIL I'm dyslexic...
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On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost.
Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you).
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EPT
