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Holy shit 1st place and 2nd place of GSL playing against Stats and SoO in Ro16. Brutal
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On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you).
Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same.
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On April 11 2019 06:25 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Agree...and I've been on here for years, I only just realized your name wasn't "chairosaur". TIL I'm dyslexic...
Wth it's not Chairosaur?
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On April 11 2019 07:31 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same.
Representative of what, exactly? This obsession for considering korean leagues only immensely narrows the perspective; TaeJa and Symbol are not players of the same caliber.
The Terran who were listed shaped Starcraft 2, they were overall way more relevant than those Zerg.
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Northern Ireland26108 Posts
On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost.
One I don’t think they have, really. Also when I first injected this angle to the thread I also added ‘and didn’t have new players step up.’
So for Zergs, Serral has stepped up to the plate, Rogue went from a talent to a tournament winning player, etc.
Basically all of those players were either really good players who didn’t win anything, or players who did but fell out of competitive relevancy. And by that I mean Nestea. Life would be one of the best players in the world today but we know what happened there.
We’re not comparing like with like here, as Terrans love to do, especially when they’re being hipster. ‘Cure is as good as Flash so he’s no loss to the race’ etc
I’ll always include strong wristed Taeja despite being speculative. Byun peaked to be a monster and is Gomez
I haven’t 100% checked, I think if you exclude Life, Taeja alone has more Premiers than your entire list of players, or it’s at least close.
So yes Terran has been unlucky in both an injury sense and a military service in who it has afflicted.
This isn’t to justify Terran balance whining, which tbh I’m sick of, but to mitigate it. They’ve been unlucky in more of their very best players have left the scene for various reasons.
This is no different for other races, they’ve just not been as unfortunate in how these issues have fallen.
Take Classic, Zest and Stats out of Protoss and see how they do, or Dark Rogue and soO from Zerg
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Northern Ireland26108 Posts
On April 11 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 07:31 Charoisaur wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same. Representative of what, exactly? This obsession for considering korean leagues only immensely narrows the perspective; TaeJa and Symbol are not players of the same caliber. The Terran who were listed shaped Starcraft 2, they were overall way more relevant than those Zerg.
Yes. Taeja may not have won a GSL, both in reality and in a hypothetical sense. Agree with you
Could he have without the wrist problems? Obviously, come on. He did ridiculous things in the game in his era. I mean preposterous things at times.
At the time maybe people went overboard, maybe his GSL relative failures were relevant. He seems to be underrated nowadays, tbh.
Level of play was different sure, there’s probably never been a better player in blind play than Taeja at his peak relative to his peers in SC2 history. Which is, IMO kinda important. Preparation skill is seen as more ‘true’ but that’s just because the GSL is a prep tournament, and it’s the most prestigious tournament. A strategy game should reward both prep and adaptation.
Maru has literally been playing since the first GSL and it took him a long time to become the Maru of today. The idea that Taeja couldn’t be at LEAST competitive without health issues is silly IMO
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Canada8989 Posts
On April 11 2019 07:49 burnturn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 06:25 mierin wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Agree...and I've been on here for years, I only just realized your name wasn't "chairosaur". TIL I'm dyslexic... Wth it's not Chairosaur?
Oh wtf yes, I was a 100% sure it was a "chair" - "dinosaur" pun haha
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On April 11 2019 08:19 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 08:00 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 07:31 Charoisaur wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Only looking at GSL victories is more representive than treating every tournament the same. Representative of what, exactly? This obsession for considering korean leagues only immensely narrows the perspective; TaeJa and Symbol are not players of the same caliber. The Terran who were listed shaped Starcraft 2, they were overall way more relevant than those Zerg. Yes. Taeja may not have won a GSL, both in reality and in a hypothetical sense. Agree with you Could he have without the wrist problems? Obviously, come on. He did ridiculous things in the game in his era. I mean preposterous things at times. At the time maybe people went overboard, maybe his GSL relative failures were relevant. He seems to be underrated nowadays, tbh. Level of play was different sure, there’s probably never been a better player in blind play than Taeja at his peak relative to his peers in SC2 history. Which is, IMO kinda important. Preparation skill is seen as more ‘true’ but that’s just because the GSL is a prep tournament, and it’s the most prestigious tournament. A strategy game should reward both prep and adaptation. Maru has literally been playing since the first GSL and it took him a long time to become the Maru of today. The idea that Taeja couldn’t be at LEAST competitive without health issues is silly IMO
I agree that being prepared and being adaptive are both great skills. One is not necessarily harder than the other.
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On April 11 2019 10:23 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 07:49 burnturn wrote:On April 11 2019 06:25 mierin wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Agree...and I've been on here for years, I only just realized your name wasn't "chairosaur". TIL I'm dyslexic... Wth it's not Chairosaur? Oh wtf yes, I was a 100% sure it was a "chair" - "dinosaur" pun haha
I was too, I'm glad at least 2 people were as challenged as I was :p
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On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now?
What happens to those statistics if you remove Maru from them?
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On April 09 2019 06:44 renaissanceMAN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. I was gonna post something to this effect on one of the other recent tournament threads—Maru does good because Maru is a tried & true beast, whose only weakness may be that he needs slightly more prep time than some of his fellow players.
He's also a Prime Terran which means that he is his own worst enemy.
His loss to sOs @ Blizzcon last season was the most Prime Terran thing that any Prime Terran has ever done.
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On April 11 2019 15:53 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 06:44 renaissanceMAN wrote:On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. I was gonna post something to this effect on one of the other recent tournament threads—Maru does good because Maru is a tried & true beast, whose only weakness may be that he needs slightly more prep time than some of his fellow players. He's also a Prime Terran which means that he is his own worst enemy. His loss to sOs @ Blizzcon last season was the most Prime Terran thing that any Prime Terran has ever done.
I think the only Prime Terran that avoided prime Terran things was Polt
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On April 11 2019 16:09 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 15:53 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 09 2019 06:44 renaissanceMAN wrote:On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. I was gonna post something to this effect on one of the other recent tournament threads—Maru does good because Maru is a tried & true beast, whose only weakness may be that he needs slightly more prep time than some of his fellow players. He's also a Prime Terran which means that he is his own worst enemy. His loss to sOs @ Blizzcon last season was the most Prime Terran thing that any Prime Terran has ever done. I think the only Prime Terran that avoided prime Terran things was Polt
Nah man, I've defintely seen Polt lose way more than he should stubbornly insisting on killing a Nexus or Hatchery.
He's not immune to the curse either.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you).
Polt & Bomber dominated mostly WCS where the big part of their victories come from. Talking about Mvp at 2019 as a loss to the scene is kinda weird when his prime was 2012. I don't know, that's like 7 years difference and 2 game releases later? MKP Prime(intended  ) time was what, 2011? Can we also mention Terrans lost iloveoov? (who would be more related to LotV than Mvp because he was the head coach in SKT T1). While I love all these Terrans and still miss them - let's be fair
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On April 11 2019 13:03 mierin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 10:23 Nakajin wrote:On April 11 2019 07:49 burnturn wrote:On April 11 2019 06:25 mierin wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Agree...and I've been on here for years, I only just realized your name wasn't "chairosaur". TIL I'm dyslexic... Wth it's not Chairosaur? Oh wtf yes, I was a 100% sure it was a "chair" - "dinosaur" pun haha I was too, I'm glad at least 2 people were as challenged as I was :p
Holy shit
Now that you guys mentioned it O.O
I always read it Chairosaur in my mind ^^'
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On April 11 2019 16:43 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Polt & Bomber dominated mostly WCS where the big part of their victories come from. Talking about Mvp at 2019 as a loss to the scene is kinda weird when his prime was 2012. I don't know, that's like 7 years difference and 2 game releases later? MKP Prime(intended ) time was what, 2011? Can we also mention Terrans lost iloveoov? (who would be more related to LotV than Mvp because he was the head coach in SKT T1). While I love all these Terrans and still miss them - let's be fair
Both Bomber and Polt won a GSL title and they mostly beat koreans to win their other trophies.
Also, Sniper and RorO won their only Premier Tournament before Mvp won his last while MKP reached HotSix final in December 2014; your point either doesn't hit the mark or affects players from both lists equally.
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 11 2019 18:18 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 16:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Polt & Bomber dominated mostly WCS where the big part of their victories come from. Talking about Mvp at 2019 as a loss to the scene is kinda weird when his prime was 2012. I don't know, that's like 7 years difference and 2 game releases later? MKP Prime(intended ) time was what, 2011? Can we also mention Terrans lost iloveoov? (who would be more related to LotV than Mvp because he was the head coach in SKT T1). While I love all these Terrans and still miss them - let's be fair Both Bomber and Polt won a GSL title and they mostly beat koreans to win their other trophies. Also, Sniper and RorO won their only Premier Tournament before Mvp won his last while MKP reached HotSix final in December 2014; your point either doesn't hit the mark or affects players from both lists equally.
Same applies to the Zergs. MKP in 2k14 wasn't the top Terran, I'm not denying he was good Terran, but his top time was 2k11. They(Bomber & Polt) mostly won against lower tier Koreans in WCS, let's not pretend those were top tier Koreans.
Which GSL Bomber won? He won WCS Global tournament, IIRC he has never won GSL Code S. Maybe I'm blind(as my memory is bad) because I can't see it in Liquipedia either. Polt won Souper Tournament in 2k11 and we can discuss if it's a full-size GSL, from the race distribution it appears as GomTvT era
Anyway, I didn't say they have never done anything against top Koreans, but the biggest part of their victories is from WCS so it's not like Korean scene is losing that many victories/titles. Taeja/ByuN/MMA are a totally different discussion. And I am still huge Bomber fanboy, I love him more than Maru.
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On April 11 2019 19:32 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 18:18 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 16:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Polt & Bomber dominated mostly WCS where the big part of their victories come from. Talking about Mvp at 2019 as a loss to the scene is kinda weird when his prime was 2012. I don't know, that's like 7 years difference and 2 game releases later? MKP Prime(intended ) time was what, 2011? Can we also mention Terrans lost iloveoov? (who would be more related to LotV than Mvp because he was the head coach in SKT T1). While I love all these Terrans and still miss them - let's be fair Both Bomber and Polt won a GSL title and they mostly beat koreans to win their other trophies. Also, Sniper and RorO won their only Premier Tournament before Mvp won his last while MKP reached HotSix final in December 2014; your point either doesn't hit the mark or affects players from both lists equally. Same applies to the Zergs. MKP in 2k14 wasn't the top Terran, I'm not denying he was good Terran, but his top time was 2k11. They(Bomber & Polt) mostly won against lower tier Koreans in WCS, let's not pretend those were top tier Koreans. Which GSL Bomber won? He won WCS Global tournament, IIRC he has never won GSL Code S. Maybe I'm blind(as my memory is bad) because I can't see it in Liquipedia either. Polt won Souper Tournament in 2k11 and we can discuss if it's a full-size GSL, from the race distribution it appears as GomTvT era Anyway, I didn't say they have never done anything against top Koreans, but the biggest part of their victories is from WCS so it's not like Korean scene is losing that many victories/titles. Taeja/ByuN/MMA are a totally different discussion. And I am still huge Bomber fanboy, I love him more than Maru.
With those criteria, both Sniper's and RorO's victories in Code S shouldn't be valued since they happened during BLInfestor era.
The main point here is that Terran lost many more top players than Zerg(and Protoss) or that they were not replaced by new players of the same caliber.
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Damn, soO gets Maru in round 1 again, such bad luck...
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 11 2019 20:12 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2019 19:32 deacon.frost wrote:On April 11 2019 18:18 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 16:43 deacon.frost wrote:On April 11 2019 06:46 Xain0n wrote:On April 11 2019 05:15 Charoisaur wrote:On April 10 2019 08:46 Z3nith wrote:On April 10 2019 07:27 Wombat_NI wrote:
And tangentially on balance, Terran has lost more of its top players and not really had replacements step up. They’ve been hit doubly here, they’ve lost more players of that clas than the other races, and they’ve had less either burst through from nowhere, or gradually improve to the very, very top of the game.
Mvp and Taeja to wrists, although the former would have had military service to factor in even without that. Byun to military service, Flash departed when he was on a consistent upward curve. It’s hypothetical land of course, it assumes not just maintaining skill but improving with everyone else, but if you had some of those guys fit and motivated and still in the scene does the Terran landscape look as bad?
As per what GSL tiers I think exist and how I kind of rank players. Players may slightly deviate, plus bracket luck but generally.
Qualifiers - Still obviously very bloody good players, good enough to make it into the main tournament out of qualifying, an achievement in itself. Generally then get dumped out there in the Ro32
Ro8ers - A step above the qualifiers, can be relied upon to generally get out of groups and beyond, maybe Ro4 with a miracle run or bracket luck but they generally fall short once they face one of the next tier in longer series.
Championship contenders - They won’t necessarily do it, they might be slumping or have a bad day, but players that are just that little better. They’ll be consistently there, or thereabouts and while they may not be favoured in every particular match necessarily, they’re all the players when you look at the field and mentally tick off who could win it.
When I consider each race’s players in this crude fashion, there really aren’t that many egregious upsets all that frequently. The very best Protoss players consistently
outperform those below them, likewise the Zergs, likewise the Terrans only there are fewer of them at the very top of their race.
This isn’t to say there aren’t also issues balance wise either necessarily. This is something to note. Protoss have lost MC, Rain, PartinG (till he came back) and maybe LiquidHerO with the likes of Stats stepping up while Zest, Classic, sOs etc. have remained. I struggle to think of too many Zergs that have left besides Life of course and DongRaeGu with Rogue, Dark and Serral stepping up while soO has remained. Meanwhile Terran has lost MVP, Taeja, Polt, Byun, Flash, MMA, Marineking, Bomber with no one really stepping up too replace them. That's a lot of players to lose with no replacement. That's a huge amount of championship contenders that have been lost for terran Zerg has lost Life, DRG, Symbol, Sniper, RorO, Nestea, Hyun, ByuL, Soulkey and Jaedong. That's pretty much the same amount of top tier players that terran lost. Hm, that's 49 Premier tournaments for those Terran players opposed to 23 for those Zerg(even if I guess you only look at GSL victories so they are pretty equivalent to you). Polt & Bomber dominated mostly WCS where the big part of their victories come from. Talking about Mvp at 2019 as a loss to the scene is kinda weird when his prime was 2012. I don't know, that's like 7 years difference and 2 game releases later? MKP Prime(intended ) time was what, 2011? Can we also mention Terrans lost iloveoov? (who would be more related to LotV than Mvp because he was the head coach in SKT T1). While I love all these Terrans and still miss them - let's be fair Both Bomber and Polt won a GSL title and they mostly beat koreans to win their other trophies. Also, Sniper and RorO won their only Premier Tournament before Mvp won his last while MKP reached HotSix final in December 2014; your point either doesn't hit the mark or affects players from both lists equally. Same applies to the Zergs. MKP in 2k14 wasn't the top Terran, I'm not denying he was good Terran, but his top time was 2k11. They(Bomber & Polt) mostly won against lower tier Koreans in WCS, let's not pretend those were top tier Koreans. Which GSL Bomber won? He won WCS Global tournament, IIRC he has never won GSL Code S. Maybe I'm blind(as my memory is bad) because I can't see it in Liquipedia either. Polt won Souper Tournament in 2k11 and we can discuss if it's a full-size GSL, from the race distribution it appears as GomTvT era Anyway, I didn't say they have never done anything against top Koreans, but the biggest part of their victories is from WCS so it's not like Korean scene is losing that many victories/titles. Taeja/ByuN/MMA are a totally different discussion. And I am still huge Bomber fanboy, I love him more than Maru. With those criteria, both Sniper's and RorO's victories in Code S shouldn't be valued since they happened during BLInfestor era. The main point here is that Terran lost many more top players than Zerg(and Protoss) or that they were not replaced by new players of the same caliber.
The main reason I replied is that Terrans didn't lost that mnay premier tournaments in quality of the wins when talking about Polt/Bomber. Yes, they won some stacked tournaments but no, winning WCS NA shouldn't count as that was the "B tier" Korean tournament, we can call it Code B
FFS even ForGG had bigger impact than Mvp or MKP in the past 5 years as he won a tournament over a damn Life!
We have at least 3 top Terrans now - Maru, Innovation and TY, 2 good - Bunny and Gumi. Then we have Cure, Keen, aLive. And probably some more.
And out of all this players only 1 qualified because he's a Code S monster and 1 managed to qualify through qualifications. Hurricane, Parting(the current one), Patience over Inno/TY/Bunny? With THOSE map PvT numbers?
I just don't accept the "we lost terrans" argument.
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EPT
