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On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now?
Please, don't pretend that Protoss or Zerg players wouldn't be losing their shit if they'd had IEM and ST qualifier results like these.
If anything the response here is pretty calm.
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Is there anyway to get replays or a cast of these games? I know there wasn't anything live but something retroactive would be nice.
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On April 09 2019 07:55 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now? Terran has won the last 5 GSL's in a row actually. Gunning for 6.
Clearly the OP race.
Cure with the hardest group (nojoke) again ...
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On April 09 2019 08:47 yoshi245 wrote:
2 Terrans, ow.
DAVID KIMmmmmmmmmmmm！！！！！！
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On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now?
Zerg players did that all of 2018. Serral is the bestest ever, so his wins aren't due to imbalance! Rogue is a world champion, so him winning is expected! Scarlett always plays Koreans tough (conveniently ignoring the entirety of LotV), so her winning isn't a surprise!
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There's a reason that Maru is called the 4th race. I'm not about to embark on a balance whine because Maru has clearly shown what his race is capable of. Only it seems strange that so many of his compatriots are seemingly falling behind in the highest arenas, especially in TvP it seems.
A statistician would be very rouge indeed to let one outlier justify the notion that a trend indicative in the rest of their dataset shows that one group is significantly below the mean. That is to say, at this point, is there any doubt that Maru is an outlier? I mean, how probable are three GSL victorties in a row, let alone four?
That said, I still assert that it's best to wait for a few more results to come in, before making any further changes.
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One thing to realize is that Terran in SC2 is mechanically very demanding and there is always something for the the player with a bit of extra multitasking to do to get ahead, even more than the other races. This means that while the average Pro will struggle because they can’t manage every unit effectively or harass and macro perfectly all the time, the one who can do that will dominate everything.
This is apparent form the recent Maru games where he got full value out of every unit. Other players would probably use the Raven for a couple of disables or AA missiles but Maru just keeps it alive a lot longer and get more use out of it. He constantly used all of the Raven’s skills in engagements. Similarly his positioning of tanks, mines and how he would engage was great. He would also always be somehow able to deflect harass attempts without taking disastrous damage. My guess is all these need a lot of time and preparation to get it just right, which probably explains his poor results in tournaments with less preparation.
This is also what makes balancing Terran hard. Due to this any small buff can make Terran extremely overpowered. I’m betting that if SC2 had the same amount of coaching and training like SC1 had in its prime, people would regard Terran as the OP race. I’ve tried to think of buffs to units or nerfs to other Protoss units but its hard doing that without it significantly titling the balance in the other direction. It probably explains Blizzard stumbling around in their patches also. I think a larger redesign might be needed to get it correct at this point... Till then people might have to be satisfied with either 1 or 2 terrrans qualifying or it being mostly Terrans!
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On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now?
I play BW but in SC2 I main protoss. When it comes to looking at the strength of a race, it's not as good to look at who won what tournament imo as it is to look at tournament race distributions. By the first measure, Terran is doing very well but by the second, it's doing really poorly. If Rogue, Dark and soO are getting knocked out of every ro16 or ro32 but Serral wins everything, I don't think it's fair to say Zerg is doing well.
Edit: And tbf, TY made some ro8s and Inno won WESG but they also had some pretty big upsets and Gumiho is not doing very well atm, so I think it's fair to say terran is pretty underpowered right now. Maybe they shouldn't buff terran because I don't think the imbalance is way worse than in 2018 (although I feel like terran was pretty weak in 2018 as well imo).
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Wow that race distribution, Well means less Terrans for Maru to face I guess.
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Well atleast we have Maru and Gumiho
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On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak.
I agree with this. Only Maru is doing well. But even Maru did poorly at IEM. Actually, all the Terran did poorly at IEM too.
Terran seems to be struggling right now.
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On April 09 2019 08:28 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now? Please, don't pretend that Protoss or Zerg players wouldn't be losing their shit if they'd had IEM and ST qualifier results like these. If anything the response here is pretty calm.
I don't think anyone would bat an eye if the only Zergs to qualify were Dark and Rogue.
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On April 09 2019 10:44 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 07:03 the caz dog wrote:On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak. Never pass up on an opportunity to ask for Terran buffs, it seems. Possible 4 in a row GSL wins not enough for you? (Where TvP is 55%, btw). And now we are asked to exclude Maru's achievements from balance discussions as an outlier? Imagine if Protoss or Zerg players spoke like this...but to be honest, it seems to work in influencing Blizzard....so why stop now? I play BW but in SC2 I main protoss. When it comes to looking at the strength of a race, it's not as good to look at who won what tournament imo as it is to look at tournament race distributions. By the first measure, Terran is doing very well but by the second, it's doing really poorly. If Rogue, Dark and soO are getting knocked out of every ro16 or ro32 but Serral wins everything, I don't think it's fair to say Zerg is doing well. Edit: And tbf, TY made some ro8s and Inno won WESG but they also had some pretty big upsets and Gumiho is not doing very well atm, so I think it's fair to say terran is pretty underpowered right now. Maybe they shouldn't buff terran because I don't think the imbalance is way worse than in 2018 (although I feel like terran was pretty weak in 2018 as well imo).
and the OP object too.like buyn winning blizzcon has nothing to do with 8 armors ultralisk but nerfing protoss "ultralisk" aint easy as many people would think and that requires many changes like the first 2019 patch
its not like zvp aint bad enough already for blizz to continue nerfing protoss moar
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In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
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United States33493 Posts
Man we went from Terran having half the seeds at IEM Katowice to this 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote:
In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have
IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal.
To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16.
No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious!
The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
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On April 09 2019 06:32 Anc13nt wrote:
Feels like it's becoming more and more clear that terran is underpowered tbh. Just because Maru is doing well doesn't mean terran is doing fine, especially since Maru seems to thrive whenever terran is weak.
not really
innovation just won a big tournament and now had bad luck while aslo kicking out other terrans before ...
there were nothing that made terran worse between the last terran tournament win vs SERRAL and now
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On April 09 2019 17:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2019 16:49 Harris1st wrote:
In GSL, everytime Maru gets to Ghosts, Protoss is dead. So much so that I almost considered making a statement with increasing the range of Feedback.
Now I haven't seen any of these qualifier games, but there surely have to be some macro games among them. It seems like, other Terrans underestimate the game changing capabilities ONE EMP can have IMO it's more about that Raven and turning off high impact units like Colossus/Immortal. To the balance discussion - IEM - 1 terran in RO12, 0T in RO8, GSL ST - 2 Terrans in RO16. No offense to anyone, but if you think that this is fine because Maru is doing fine in GSL and because of WESG where both Terrans had only 2 realistic opponents(Dark, Serral), then I don't know what to tell ya. Oh, now I know. If you gonna use WESG, I'm gonna use WCS in how bad shape Terran is! Oooh, genious! The last time we saw such numbers it was during the blink era and it was very easy to spot(maps, balance, MSC vision), now it appears as more of a design issue and I am very interested on how this gonna be solved by Blizzard(if ...)
I see, Terrans winning tournaments or placing top 3 doesnt matter, because there are other tournaments that they dont win or place top 3. Your logic is flawless.
The efficiency of terran whiners is just next level, there's a qualifiers which most people couldnt even watch, terrans end up having just 2 spots, and suddenly it's the end of the world. For all we know Terran will win the supertournament after this.
I'm indifferent in regards to TvP, it's a bad mu, i dont watch it a lot, so by all means, shake it up. I just enjoy the terran tears too much.
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EPT
