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Comedy
466 Posts
On February 13 2019 17:42 xongnox wrote: Meanwhile in foreign land, they are 2 terrans in the top 16 players of WCS Europe. People always use this as an argument. It doesn't hold water. You can't magically make skilled terran users appear in a region when they just don't exist. Europe has never really had strong terran players and a lot of the ones we did have quit early on. Thorzain, lucifron, happy, etc. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On February 13 2019 10:52 Cyro wrote: Is it your opinion that the matchup is heavily protoss favored? If so, why? My analysis thusfar has brought up that some vocal terran players don't enjoy playing TvP at the moment and would often like design changes to their race to play out the matchup differently. It has brought up no significant evidence yet of problematic imbalance in the performance of the matchup, e.g. TvP being 8-6 in GSL code S and 23-24 in WCS since the last round of changes. what about ladder stats. Look up top gm players. Every single Protoss has TvP as their best matchup and every single terran as their worst matchup by a large margin. Is ladder meaningless in your opinion? Why? are terrans just not trying there? Ther tournament stats you brought up are incredibly low sample size so I don't think they are more representative than the ladder stats. On February 13 2019 18:20 Comedy wrote: People always use this as an argument. It doesn't hold water. You can't magically make skilled terran users appear in a region when they just don't exist. Europe has never really had strong terran players and a lot of the ones we did have quit early on. Thorzain, lucifron, happy, etc. Agreed - terrans just happen to be worse. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
Changes in the pro scene also take a little while to propagate down ladder and even across regions, more time the further down in skill you go; the fact that people aren't winning a matchup at lower levels of play doesn't mean that their race isn't capable of winning that matchup at that level of play ever. The tournament stats you brought up are incredibly low sample size That's exactly what i'm saying, that the data doesn't exist to come to any kind of conclusion of imbalance in the pro scene. Even if the winrates were wonky - and they're not - it wouldn't mean much with a sample that's this small in both number and timespan. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16021 Posts
On February 13 2019 18:26 Cyro wrote: Balance at semi pro or lower levels of play is still relevant but less so than balance at the highest level. If a race is good at pro level but bad at mid-high masters then it's probably for design reasons that could use reworks rather than giving all of their units 2% more DPS. Changes in the pro scene also take a little while to propagate down ladder, more time the further down in skill you go; the fact that people aren't winning a matchup at lower levels of play doesn't mean that their race isn't capable of winning that matchup at that level of play ever. I'm not talking about lower levels of play I'm talking about the ladder stats of PRO players. Uthermal, Heromarine, Demuslim are all sitting at 40-50% in TvP while Neeb, Harstem, Showtime etc have 80+% in the matchup. you can look it up yourself. Watching their streams I see those terrans get destroyed by 6k Protoss if they try to play macro which never happens against a Z/T. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
On February 13 2019 18:20 Comedy wrote: People always use this as an argument. It doesn't hold water. You can't magically make skilled terran users appear in a region when they just don't exist. Europe has never really had strong terran players and a lot of the ones we did have quit early on. Thorzain, lucifron, happy, etc. It's not Europe. It's the whole world except Korea (and then, the exception confirming the rule, SpeCial) It's true NA has more terrans but the level is so bad. For whatever reason, there's a lot more highly skilled zerg players in the EU region and a few protoss. Maybe it's because of idra's or stephano's early popularity that made people choose the race, or it's just purely random. But you can't change balance around which race has the highest ammount of skill concentration in a region. Well, for whatever reason, there's a lot more highly skilled terrans players in the KR region and a few protoss. [...] But you can't change balance around which race has the highest ammount of skill concentration in a region. OOpps, it's actually exactly what does Blizards, balancing mainly for GSL-level players. KR top player race distribution was ok in HoTs( hence good HoTs balance ?), but since Kespa's end and the mass retirements, plus some time, it's heavily terran-favored for 2018 (and 2019) Kr scene is still the best skill-wise, but the other reality is : it is dying number-wise, with no new players. So, will we still continue to balance only for 10 kids in KR while the terran race desappear for the rest of the universe ? Btw, there are some ways we can buff "foreign terrans" and "ladder terrans" without buffing Koreans ones : the "ease of play" or "quality of life" changes, you know the ones Zergs and Toss got a very lot. (from stacking injects to F2-imune spoting obs to auto-warpgate, etc. ) | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20322 Posts
I'm not talking about lower levels of play I'm talking about the ladder stats of PRO players. Uthermal, Heromarine, Demuslim are all sitting at 40-50% in TvP while Neeb, Harstem, Showtime etc have 80+% in the matchup. you can look it up yourself. Watching their streams I see those terrans get destroyed by 6k Protoss if they try to play macro which never happens against a Z/T. Can't see those stats at the moment but if it really is horrifically imbalanced you'll see it in games that have money on the line sooner rather than later; i'm kinda repeating myself here. | ||
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Rail_sc2
Russian Federation205 Posts
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Rail_sc2
Russian Federation205 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
Even too big to be a troll, dunno what he smokes, but i want the same. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
TvP being balanced for normal players in macro games. What the situation is right now TvP being balanced for Korean pro players that avoid late game at all cost. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
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narbsncharbs
34 Posts
In sc2, we see people still trying to go bio even though in sc2 there are more hardcounters. Colossus, storm, disruptors... I don't think bio is the way to go vs protoss considering the deck is stacked worse vs bio than it was in BW. So that leads us to mech. We can never trade armies late game vs toss(or even zerg for that matter) with mech because of how fast they can re-max after a late game trade and because of how slow terran's mech core unit builds(siege tank) . Lowering the build time for siege tanks is the first step in the right direction so that terrans can at least begin to start trading armies late game. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On February 13 2019 22:21 narbsncharbs wrote: Ok so in broodwar, Terran could not go bio vs protoss unless it was a 2 base all in timing push because of things like storm/reavers. In sc2, we see people still trying to go bio even though in sc2 there are more hardcounters. Colossus, storm, disruptors... I don't think bio is the way to go vs protoss considering the deck is stacked worse vs bio than it was in BW. So that leads us to mech. We can never trade armies late game vs toss(or even zerg for that matter) with mech because of how fast they can re-max after a late game trade and because of how slow terran's mech core unit builds(siege tank) . Lowering the build time for siege tanks is the first step in the right direction so that terrans can at least begin to start trading armies late game. This so much. Trying to make bio the go-to strategy instead of mech was a huge mistake. Especially since the amount of splash Protoss have is absolutely insane. Lowering the build time of tanks would solve both the problem of not being able to take a 3rd on time, and being able to trade armies in the late game. | ||
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Nars_
31 Posts
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narbsncharbs
34 Posts
On February 13 2019 22:37 MockHamill wrote: This so much. Trying to make bio the go-to strategy instead of mech was a huge mistake. Especially since the amount of splash Protoss have is absolutely insane. Lowering the build time of tanks would solve both the problem of not being able to take a 3rd on time, and being able to trade armies in the late game. It also would have allowed terran to deal with the earlier blink that is getting nerfed next patch. But no, instead they just focus on taking toys away from the players. I'm starting to think whoever is in charge of making balance decisions is trying to sabotage the game. That or they just clearly don't know what they are doing, at all. | ||
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TrashEconomy
25 Posts
Let's agree that Terran fares well enough in tournaments: this isn't enough to declare that the matchup is fine. All of the wins come on the back of allins, which is horrible design. The game exists for ladder players, and TvP is totally unfun as a Terran player. Being FORCED to blindly go all-in to have an even chance at winning at similar skill levels is repetitive and uninteresting. And on the esports side, watching the same all-ins over and over and over is boring, to the point that I rarely watch SC2 anymore. How many times do I need to see Innovation bunker-push a Protoss' natural? This is constantly happening, where both sides talk over each other. "TvP is broken because you have to all-in to have a fair chance" "TvP is fine because the winrates in premier tournaments are even". That's just not enough for the vast majority of us. An RTS that can be functionally replaced by a coin flip at the beginning of every game isn't a good RTS. | ||
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narbsncharbs
34 Posts
On February 13 2019 23:37 TrashEconomy wrote: Something really needs to be clarified here: Let's agree that Terran fares well enough in tournaments: this isn't enough to declare that the matchup is fine. All of the wins come on the back of allins, which is horrible design. The game exists for ladder players, and TvP is totally unfun as a Terran player. Being FORCED to blindly go all-in to have an even chance at winning at similar skill levels is repetitive and uninteresting. And on the esports side, watching the same all-ins over and over and over is boring, to the point that I rarely watch SC2 anymore. How many times do I need to see Innovation bunker-push a Protoss' natural? This is constantly happening, where both sides talk over each other. "TvP is broken because you have to all-in to have a fair chance" "TvP is fine because the winrates in premier tournaments are even". That's just not enough for the vast majority of us. An RTS that can be functionally replaced by a coin flip at the beginning of every game isn't a good RTS. If you don't mind, Can you elaborate a little bit more in regards to the last line there, be specific. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On February 13 2019 17:42 curutcis wrote: I want to see scv pulls and 2 base all ins or proxyes or nyduses cause they make the game FUN to watch. From a spectator point of view i want an exciting game. I want to be thrilled and say wow, player A is doing a crazy thing. Can player B see it coming? Omg he just missed the proxy with the scout or the nydus timing with the scan or whatever. There is a huge difference between seeing a cheeky all in mixed into a series and it becoming the actual standard meta. If you find seeing the same all ins over and over exciting and to be the pinnacle of what we should expect as rts fans then this probably isnt even worth responding to. Much more likely a Protoss player happy with his winrate vs T that doesnt want a design change would be my guess lol. | ||
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TrashEconomy
25 Posts
On February 14 2019 01:06 narbsncharbs wrote: If you don't mind, Can you elaborate a little bit more in regards to the last line there, be specific. A meta entirely defined by ultra-high-risk, volatile all-ins is inherently coin-flippy. What else needs to be explained? TvP's aren't being decided by a dynamic series of strategic choices, multitasking, tactics, and small micro-wars, but by one major moment that is highly probabilistic (bunkers just barely finishing, stalkers just barely avoiding a tank shot, etc). Terrans have basically been forced into a meta that's based on gambling, since they feel they have no chance in a game that relies less on getting lucky. | ||
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