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On February 14 2019 01:26 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 17:42 curutcis wrote:On February 13 2019 10:37 pvsnp wrote:
Meh.
At the end of the day PvT is reasonably well balanced, even if it's heavily dependent on allins. Doubtless the fans will be thrilled to see tank pushes every game, but a win's a win. Tank push or otherwise.
It's not ideal, but I guess the balance team thinks it's good enough for the big tournaments. I want to see scv pulls and 2 base all ins or proxyes or nyduses cause they make the game FUN to watch. From a spectator point of view i want an exciting game. I want to be thrilled and say wow, player A is doing a crazy thing. Can player B see it coming? Omg he just missed the proxy with the scout or the nydus timing with the scan or whatever. There is a huge difference between seeing a cheeky all in mixed into a series and it becoming the actual standard meta. If you find seeing the same all ins over and over exciting and to be the pinnacle of what we should expect as rts fans then this probably isnt even worth responding to. Much more likely a Protoss player happy with his winrate vs T that doesnt want a design change would be my guess lol.
For the most part, I'm sure Toss players are loving this meta. They get free wins against anyone who doesn't copy pro cheese builds, and they have plenty of study material from pro VODs to learn how to crush those builds when they aren't being executed by Maru. And then Terrans get called whiners and told to be happy because tournament winrates are ok. Even Zergs are starting to be appalled at the TvP meta
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On February 14 2019 02:38 TrashEconomy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 01:06 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 13 2019 23:37 TrashEconomy wrote:
Something really needs to be clarified here:
Let's agree that Terran fares well enough in tournaments: this isn't enough to declare that the matchup is fine. All of the wins come on the back of allins, which is horrible design. The game exists for ladder players, and TvP is totally unfun as a Terran player. Being FORCED to blindly go all-in to have an even chance at winning at similar skill levels is repetitive and uninteresting. And on the esports side, watching the same all-ins over and over and over is boring, to the point that I rarely watch SC2 anymore. How many times do I need to see Innovation bunker-push a Protoss' natural?
This is constantly happening, where both sides talk over each other.
"TvP is broken because you have to all-in to have a fair chance"
"TvP is fine because the winrates in premier tournaments are even".
That's just not enough for the vast majority of us. An RTS that can be functionally replaced by a coin flip at the beginning of every game isn't a good RTS. If you don't mind, Can you elaborate a little bit more in regards to the last line there, be specific. TvP's aren't being decided by a dynamic series of strategic choices, multitasking, tactics, and small micro-wars, but by one major moment that is highly probabilistic (bunkers just barely finishing, stalkers just barely avoiding a tank shot,
You just described starcraft 2 for the most part. Try sc:r.
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8748 Posts
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?
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Predictable that they need to readjust balance. I said it when they announced changes. I'm just surprised why they make such obvious mistakes.
On January 23 2019 06:21 SC-Shield wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2019 06:17 WaesumNinja wrote:
Well whatever they do people won't be happy. "Let the meta settle" and people will be snarky, do the opposite and people will complain about "dramatic changes", and that sweet spot in the middle will lead people to say "they're just messing with numbers and have no direction". And people are surprised they aren't responding to the criticism. Well, they need to explain it better then. In programming, when you debug a problem, which in simpler words means to figure out why the bug occurs and maybe to fix it, you need to try one change at a time to see what helps. I think balance changes aren't any different. You want to make very few incremental changes to check your progress: have things improved? Is it better than before? What Blizzard are doing now are 10 or whatever changes AT ONCE. This is a huge risk for something to go wrong. It's like you have 10 houses on fire instead of 1-2. It's logical, just think about it.  If they still want to make so many changes, Blizzard should use their previous PTR (Public Test Realm) approach so more people are able to test changes, but they don't do that anymore as far as I know. In this case, they should go with less changes at once.
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giving some races cheaper or more expensive upgrades dosnt make the game imbalanced or balanced. its the Units themself and the compositions that matter. Terran will not deal whit toss better cause the protoss have 50 less gas and minerals to spend.
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On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?
You cant make the only way terran can win go away. its a reason terrans is forced to go all inns.. smart protosses just prepare for it every game, tadaaaa, freewin
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On February 14 2019 03:59 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? You cant make the only way terran can win go away. its a reason terrans is forced to go all inns.. smart protosses just prepare for it every game, tadaaaa, freewin
If you would have bothered to read the rest of his post, you would have noticed he said "blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?".
These all-ins are insanely hard to hold, and even the smallest amount of harass damage seems to tip them toward being unstoppable. As terrans are getting better at them and optimizing them more, they're starting to look more 1-1-1 like than in the past. Gumiho's tank pushes looked almost unstoppable. With ravens being increasingly used to disable disruptors and colossus, I can't see these pushes being solved any time soon.
The whole midgame and lategame issue is separate, and does need solving, but at this point we've only had maybe 2 GSL games that haven't involved 2 base marine/tank/raven or marine/tank/banshee, so it's hard to even tell what we need to solve it. I think the new widow mine upgrade will have a much bigger impact on the TvP midgame than people realize once it starts getting used. With it, zealots will become much less effective.
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Zergs are extinct in gsl code s and yet b LizarD still cant decide buff protoys or buff tearrun. Wish it was 2010 again because zvt was more fair in those days.
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On February 14 2019 04:08 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 03:59 MiCroLiFe wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? You cant make the only way terran can win go away. its a reason terrans is forced to go all inns.. smart protosses just prepare for it every game, tadaaaa, freewin If you would have bothered to read the rest of his post, you would have noticed he said "blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?". These all-ins are insanely hard to hold, and even the smallest amount of harass damage seems to tip them toward being unstoppable. As terrans are getting better at them and optimizing them more, they're starting to look more 1-1-1 like than in the past. Gumiho's tank pushes looked almost unstoppable. With ravens being increasingly used to disable disruptors and colossus, I can't see these pushes being solved any time soon. The whole midgame and lategame issue is separate, and does need solving, but at this point we've only had maybe 2 GSL games that haven't involved 2 base marine/tank/raven or marine/tank/banshee, so it's hard to even tell what we need to solve it. I think the new widow mine upgrade will have a much bigger impact on the TvP midgame than people realize once it starts getting used. With it, zealots will become much less effective.
By the time you have an armory, tech lab factory, and drilling claws completed, you have much bigger problems than trading well with Zealots. If you even survived that long. TvP requires a total rewrite if they want Terrans to play macro games.
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On February 13 2019 23:37 TrashEconomy wrote:
Something really needs to be clarified here:
Let's agree that Terran fares well enough in tournaments: this isn't enough to declare that the matchup is fine. All of the wins come on the back of allins, which is horrible design. The game exists for ladder players, and TvP is totally unfun as a Terran player. Being FORCED to blindly go all-in to have an even chance at winning at similar skill levels is repetitive and uninteresting. And on the esports side, watching the same all-ins over and over and over is boring, to the point that I rarely watch SC2 anymore. How many times do I need to see Innovation bunker-push a Protoss' natural?
This is constantly happening, where both sides talk over each other.
"TvP is broken because you have to all-in to have a fair chance"
"TvP is fine because the winrates in premier tournaments are even".
That's just not enough for the vast majority of us. An RTS that can be functionally replaced by a coin flip at the beginning of every game isn't a good RTS.
The main point that i'm trying to get at is that a large crowd of vocal people are saying that TvP balance is broken because Terran doesn't have a chance to win against P which is categorically false. When money is on the line, people are not just beating P but doing it more often than expected so far. TvP since the last patch is 63.5% in favor of Terran in GSL (sample size 16 games) while WCS at a lower level of play is neck and neck (~50% with a sample size of ~45 last i checked)
Ladder isn't neccesarily that way but there are factors larger than imbalance which influence ladder winrates including the population of active, high skilled players. That's lower than it used to be and is heavily biased across races and regions for reasons other than balance. I have an archon team which wins pvp 4 times out of 5 at the top of the ladder simply because we regularly crush weaker protoss players but there are few equal or stronger ones to kick us down; that's not a good indicator that Protoss are imbalanced, we know for a fact that a protoss wins half of PvP games.
Beating P isn't the problem that these people are facing, the way that they have to play to beat P is the problem that they are poorly expressing. The sooner that they communicate that terran design isn't fun and is too difficult for them to play well - rather than that terran is too weak to win games - the sooner they will get changes that they like.
The game exists for ladder players
Even if we agreed with this, the proposed issues would only be relevant for a small minority of the ladder. The meta that you're unhappy with doesn't currently exist until levels near pro play.
On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?
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On February 13 2019 07:14 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 06:58 freelifeffs wrote:
thanks but its not enough. protoss is on an absolute murder spree vs terran and zerg blows in general. i expected more than one tiny rollback. disappointed. Are they tho? Protoss is probably a bit stronger but we have yet to see any overperforming toss in GSL, and in WCS results were mostly expected. You could say Rail above Bly and DNS over Soul were small upset but apart from them we only really had Nerchio losing to protoss rest of the matches went pretty much like you should expect. No need for major change yet let's wait a bit.
In what world DNS 3 top 16 and one "top24" in WCS 2018 over soul who made a single Ro32 apparence in 2018 and went 0-2 is an upset ?
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it's hard to evaluate the changes of the last patch at this point in time, but reverting the blink cost, aka 50/50 nerf, won't break anything by itself, so stop hyperventilating.
so far things seems rather balanced, at least wait for the first round of 2019 tourneys to end before you whine.
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8748 Posts
On February 14 2019 03:59 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? You cant make the only way terran can win go away. its a reason terrans is forced to go all inns.. smart protosses just prepare for it every game, tadaaaa, freewin
If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually.
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On February 14 2019 05:06 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 23:37 TrashEconomy wrote:
Something really needs to be clarified here:
Let's agree that Terran fares well enough in tournaments: this isn't enough to declare that the matchup is fine. All of the wins come on the back of allins, which is horrible design. The game exists for ladder players, and TvP is totally unfun as a Terran player. Being FORCED to blindly go all-in to have an even chance at winning at similar skill levels is repetitive and uninteresting. And on the esports side, watching the same all-ins over and over and over is boring, to the point that I rarely watch SC2 anymore. How many times do I need to see Innovation bunker-push a Protoss' natural?
This is constantly happening, where both sides talk over each other.
"TvP is broken because you have to all-in to have a fair chance"
"TvP is fine because the winrates in premier tournaments are even".
That's just not enough for the vast majority of us. An RTS that can be functionally replaced by a coin flip at the beginning of every game isn't a good RTS. The main point that i'm trying to get at is that a large crowd of vocal people are saying that TvP balance is broken because Terran doesn't have a chance to win against P which is categorically false. When money is on the line, people are not just beating P but doing it more often than expected so far. TvP since the last patch is 63.5% in favor of Terran in GSL (sample size 16 games) while WCS at a lower level of play is neck and neck (~50% with a sample size of ~45 last i checked) Ladder isn't neccesarily that way but there are factors larger than imbalance which influence ladder winrates including the population of active, high skilled players. That's lower than it used to be and is heavily biased across races and regions for reasons other than balance. I have an archon team which wins pvp 4 times out of 5 at the top of the ladder simply because we regularly crush weaker protoss players but there are few equal or stronger ones to kick us down; that's not a good indicator that Protoss are imbalanced, we know for a fact that a protoss wins half of PvP games. Beating P isn't the problem that these people are facing, the way that they have to play to beat P is the problem that they are poorly expressing. The sooner that they communicate that terran design isn't fun and is too difficult for them to play well - rather than that terran is too weak to win games - the sooner they will get changes that they like. Even if we agreed with this, the proposed issues would only be relevant for a small minority of the ladder. The meta that you're unhappy with doesn't currently exist until levels near pro play. Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. This half-strawman that focuses more on the idea that Terrans are freaking out about pro winrates, not the overall design of the matchup.
You poo-poo'd away the importance of ladder players as is unfortunately common in the SC community, but in this case it's extremely important to note that all the things that make TvP so ugly at the premier level are only worse as you go down in skill level. When even Korean Terrans are too frightened of Protoss splash damage combo'd with Chargelots to try to micro against it, you have a problem...an enormous one. TvP gets more punishing for the Terran as you go down in skill level, which is why EVERYONE hates the matchup. It's unplayable below the pro level, and it's a terrible meta at the pro level. No one really disputes that Terran is technically doing fine, but that doesn't mean TvP isn't an absolute cancer on the game. I don't know why so many people will stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this just because Maru is able to cheese his way to wins.
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On February 14 2019 02:53 Rodya wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:38 TrashEconomy wrote:On February 14 2019 01:06 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 13 2019 23:37 TrashEconomy wrote:
Something really needs to be clarified here:
Let's agree that Terran fares well enough in tournaments: this isn't enough to declare that the matchup is fine. All of the wins come on the back of allins, which is horrible design. The game exists for ladder players, and TvP is totally unfun as a Terran player. Being FORCED to blindly go all-in to have an even chance at winning at similar skill levels is repetitive and uninteresting. And on the esports side, watching the same all-ins over and over and over is boring, to the point that I rarely watch SC2 anymore. How many times do I need to see Innovation bunker-push a Protoss' natural?
This is constantly happening, where both sides talk over each other.
"TvP is broken because you have to all-in to have a fair chance"
"TvP is fine because the winrates in premier tournaments are even".
That's just not enough for the vast majority of us. An RTS that can be functionally replaced by a coin flip at the beginning of every game isn't a good RTS. If you don't mind, Can you elaborate a little bit more in regards to the last line there, be specific. TvP's aren't being decided by a dynamic series of strategic choices, multitasking, tactics, and small micro-wars, but by one major moment that is highly probabilistic (bunkers just barely finishing, stalkers just barely avoiding a tank shot, You just described starcraft 2 for the most part. Try sc:r. Do you even watch the ASL/KSL?
Players routinely base their entire strategies on unscouted all-ins.
The last several years have been hilariously eye-opening as players have gotten good enough to tear apart deathballers and people have started watching more matches not involving Flash, turns out SC2 and SC:BW aren't actually that different.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
This is exactly what I'm talking about. This half-strawman that focuses more on the idea that Terrans are freaking out about pro winrates, not the overall design of the matchup.
It's not a strawman, most of the complaints on social media (twitch, reddit and TL first page of this thread) are specifically talking about balance; either lying about recent terran winrates or claiming that terrans deserved to win more but didn't because protoss is imbalanced in PvT. Those claims are categorically false.
You poo-poo'd away the importance of ladder players as is unfortunately common in the SC community, but in this case it's extremely important to note that all the things that make TvP so ugly at the premier level are only worse as you go down in skill level.
I've played a ton of the matchup recently and the only terrans doing those types of all ins were already in masters and even then, most people below GM didn't play that way. As far as my experience goes, this idea that you must do a marine tank scv pull all in to win PvT doesn't exist for almost all of the ladder MMR range and i haven't seen a shred of evidence to support that experience being wrong or incomplete as of yet.
No one really disputes that Terran is technically doing fine
Most of the complaints that i've seen are actually people disputing that terran is technically doing fine. At first they had no data to stand on and then the data directly contradicted their assertions. You can see many of these in the first pages of this thread although they're far more numerous on reddit and twitch, there has been a tsunami of TvP balance whine in the last 2-3 weeks.
but that doesn't mean TvP isn't an absolute cancer on the game. I don't know why so many people will stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this just because Maru is able to cheese his way to wins.
Me and Nony are both agreeing with you in that parts of the matchup from the terran side at pro level aren't optimal for gameplay although they're getting their wins. Who is disagreeing?
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On February 14 2019 07:48 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +This is exactly what I'm talking about. This half-strawman that focuses more on the idea that Terrans are freaking out about pro winrates, not the overall design of the matchup. It's not a strawman, most of the complaints on social media (twitch, reddit and TL first page of this thread) are specifically talking about balance; either lying about recent terran winrates or claiming that terrans deserved to win more but didn't because protoss is imbalanced in PvT. Those claims are categorically false. Show nested quote +You poo-poo'd away the importance of ladder players as is unfortunately common in the SC community, but in this case it's extremely important to note that all the things that make TvP so ugly at the premier level are only worse as you go down in skill level. I've played a ton of the matchup recently and the only terrans doing those types of all ins were already in masters and even then, most people below GM didn't play that way. As far as my experience goes, this idea that you must do a marine tank scv pull all in to win PvT doesn't exist for almost all of the ladder MMR range and i haven't seen a shred of evidence to support that experience being wrong or incomplete as of yet. Most of the complaints that i've seen are actually people disputing that terran is technically doing fine. At first they had no data to stand on and then the data directly contradicted their assertions. You can see many of these in the first pages of this thread although they're far more numerous on reddit and twitch, there has been a tsunami of TvP balance whine in the last 2-3 weeks. Show nested quote +but that doesn't mean TvP isn't an absolute cancer on the game. I don't know why so many people will stubbornly refuse to acknowledge this just because Maru is able to cheese his way to wins. Me and Nony are both agreeing with you in that parts of the matchup from the terran side at pro level aren't optimal for gameplay although they're getting their wins. Who is disagreeing?
Everyone really needs to stop pretending like the first few groups of the first tournament in Korea on this patch should be grounds for saying "the data says..." The data doesnt mean dick at this point. It took sos 6 months to figure out how to counter the proxy bullshit. You cant say in one post that the data is irrelevant but then come back in another using it as a refutation that there is a balance problem. Balance problems have been masked by Korean terrans coming up with very strong all ins over and over in the past. Eventually these all ins are solved and the problem presents itself. No one disagrees that T cant keep up with P after early mid game. There are actual reasons for why this is the casw. They cant just nerf toss until the counter to the yolo builds is created because the threat of the all in combined with the threat of going late game will be too strong. None of that, including the so called "data" means there isnt a balance problem. Its like saying there wasnt a balance problem in wol broodlord infestor bc terrans can still take games with 11/11. Thats still a problem! We will just have to wait and see until toss pros learn how to shut down the all ins. If they dont then they still need to fix the matchup (with changes on both sides) otherwise we will have another 2018 shitshow of idiotic repetive games in tvp to watch.
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Ah yes, the typical "just wait guys!" response that always seems to come from someone new on these forums. never gets old.
Some data is just bad and doesn't display everything a race is capable off, for instance the stats gsl games vs T. I don't see how data that includes the protoss *not playing to the races fullest potential* can be used as "terran is fine". There is no logic there. numbers aren't everything. they are only part of the big picture. you really gotta analyze the games, as many as possible.
If a terran forgets stim in a bo3 and loses, how can we even use that as valid data? It's like well, we know that if he had stim that entire battle goes in his favor. That's how it is with stats. He had the money to tech into storm and have it up and running. He didn't. Then another game he uses the ht energy for feedback instead of storming the army. He threw away his dps. These games aren't games that are screaming hey, terran is doing well or fine. These are games are saying well yeah, terran can beat protoss easily when they don't have storm late game or use the wrong ability. They just simply should n't be included in any of the w/l ratio statistics that people are weighing out. Same goes for any game where both players didn't play as perfect as possible. Not getting storm and using wrong abilities is far from perfect. Balance is deeper than you think and goes just beyond looking at the entire box of win/loss statistics. Gotta make sure those players were playing the races to the best of the races' abilities as well aka using it to it's fullest potential.
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United Kingdom20285 Posts
Everyone really needs to stop pretending like the first few groups of the first tournament in Korea on this patch should be grounds for saying "the data says..." The data doesnt mean dick at this point. It took sos 6 months to figure out how to counter the proxy bullshit. You cant say in one post that the data is irrelevant but then come back in another using it as a refutation that there is a balance problem.
The sky is not falling. There's little data that could say that is was, even if that data didn't disagree with the assertion.
Ah yes, the typical "just wait guys!" response that always seems to come from someone new on these forums. never gets old.
I bought the game on day 1 and have made ~48 posts here per week average since 2011, Nony has been playing SC at a higher level than almost anybody on this forum for far longer than that.
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On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?
Time out Nony, We haven't seen much of anything in GSL yet.
We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one.
Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think TvP is as bad at the moment as lot of people think it is, but I'd wait until at LEAST the Ro32 is over before I start making any arguments based around it.
Also regarding If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually.
I don't think ANY Terran likes the idea that you have to all in to win vs Protoss, the argument is that late game TvP feels so unwinnable right now that it feels like you're forced to end the game early or else face an impossibly hard match up later on.
I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game. Blizzard TRIED to buff the BCs and the Thor to help with this issue but they turned around and buffed the shit out of Tempests which laugh at either of those units. why Blizz seems to think that Thors are EVER going to be an effective weapon vs something like the Tempest is beyond me.
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