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On February 13 2019 07:56 Rodya wrote:
This the problem with the current balance team. We have not had enough time to decide whether or not TvP is terran favored or protoss favored. It definitely is protoss favored on the ladder, but what about in GSL? We've only had a few groups... why are they creating a balance change after just a few groups? Stop changing the game, and let the pros figure everything out.
This isn't Dota or league of legends. This is starcraft.
The ladder is the important part, it's the people giving them money and a lot of those don't care much about e-sports.
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Dominican Republic627 Posts
On February 13 2019 07:15 narbsncharbs wrote:
Giving them blink for cheap was fine, but they needed to compensate the other races. For terran, they could have shortened the build time for siege tanks which would also solve the problem mech has with never being able to trade a single army late game vs protoss/zerg. I haven't watched much PvZ so I will refrain from commenting on what I think zerg needs.
Blizzard balance team's decisions end up restricting races more than improving them. They need to rethink their approach entirely. Players want more build order options, not less. Stop making decisions that take away options or stop making decisions that create less options. Their current approach is why the game is so linear/stagnant/flavorless. Stop making this game worse blizzard, ffs.
Nerfing units/upgrades is NOT the best option in most cases. Stop doing it. Instead of nerfing, buff something on the other sides that way everyone has fun toys to play with.
The main reason mech isn't viable is because of terran's inability to remax as fast as protoss/zerg late game when trading armies. Zerg can instamax, protoss can near insta-max. Terran cannot come close at all with mech solely because of siege tank build time. Siege tanks play a huge role in the mech army. If we can't build them fast enough, how can mech compete with zerg/protoss late game if we can't even trade armies? Shorten the build time for siege tanks so we can trade armies effectively.
THINK ABOUT IT BLIZZARD. COMMON SENSE.
Basically with this revert, blizzard accomplished next to nothing when it comes to managing balance over the last 2 months. Who is overseeing the balance department? The balance department is not operating effectively at all and are frustrating the playerbase which can cause negative effects when it comes to customer loyalty and PR. Does blizzard not understand how balance decisions actually have an effect on their bottom line? It's things like this that make gamers want to speak bad about the company and i'm not surprised that investors have begun to notice this. Then they sell, stock plummets. In a nutshell, Blizzard is creating their own problems.
For a company that has been balancing their own game for the last decade, I would think they would have a very good understanding of how decisions can affect balance. Apparently this isn't the case. I can only hope the balance team is on the chopping block for getting laid off.
User was warned for this post.
i don't understand how a constructive critic is being warned. he is just talking about the state of the game and a way to improve things, i would re contract Broodwar balance team and let them alone for 6 month to see what they can do.
the only thing that bothers me about SC2 is that blizzard wants every unit to be useful in all the match ups when that's not needed, i think a decrease in cost of the factory or time would come handy without buff or nerfing units..
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On February 13 2019 08:40 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 07:15 narbsncharbs wrote:
Giving them blink for cheap was fine, but they needed to compensate the other races. For terran, they could have shortened the build time for siege tanks which would also solve the problem mech has with never being able to trade a single army late game vs protoss/zerg. I haven't watched much PvZ so I will refrain from commenting on what I think zerg needs.
Blizzard balance team's decisions end up restricting races more than improving them. They need to rethink their approach entirely. Players want more build order options, not less. Stop making decisions that take away options or stop making decisions that create less options. Their current approach is why the game is so linear/stagnant/flavorless. Stop making this game worse blizzard, ffs.
Nerfing units/upgrades is NOT the best option in most cases. Stop doing it. Instead of nerfing, buff something on the other sides that way everyone has fun toys to play with.
The main reason mech isn't viable is because of terran's inability to remax as fast as protoss/zerg late game when trading armies. Zerg can instamax, protoss can near insta-max. Terran cannot come close at all with mech solely because of siege tank build time. Siege tanks play a huge role in the mech army. If we can't build them fast enough, how can mech compete with zerg/protoss late game if we can't even trade armies? Shorten the build time for siege tanks so we can trade armies effectively.
THINK ABOUT IT BLIZZARD. COMMON SENSE.
Basically with this revert, blizzard accomplished next to nothing when it comes to managing balance over the last 2 months. Who is overseeing the balance department? The balance department is not operating effectively at all and are frustrating the playerbase which can cause negative effects when it comes to customer loyalty and PR. Does blizzard not understand how balance decisions actually have an effect on their bottom line? It's things like this that make gamers want to speak bad about the company and i'm not surprised that investors have begun to notice this. Then they sell, stock plummets. In a nutshell, Blizzard is creating their own problems.
For a company that has been balancing their own game for the last decade, I would think they would have a very good understanding of how decisions can affect balance. Apparently this isn't the case. I can only hope the balance team is on the chopping block for getting laid off.
User was warned for this post. i don't understand how a constructive critic is being warned. he is just talking about the state of the game and a way to improve things, i would re contract Broodwar balance team and let them alone for 6 month to see what they can do. the only thing that bothers me about SC2 is that blizzard wants every unit to be useful in all the match ups when that's not needed, i think a decrease in cost of the factory or time would come handy without buff or nerfing units..
he was probably warned for his last sentence
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On February 13 2019 07:31 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 06:58 freelifeffs wrote:
thanks but its not enough. protoss is on an absolute murder spree vs terran and zerg blows in general. i expected more than one tiny rollback. disappointed. What kind of murder spree? PvT is 30-31 in maps across WCS and GSL and 11-13 in series. Tournament results are nothing out of the ordinary right now.
i dont have it at hand but someone recently posted ladder winrates here. didnt look too good for terran and even worse for zerg.
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I don't get it. Do they enjoy watching a2 base tank + scv rushes every TVP? Is this what they had envisioned for the matchup?
It's not even about balance anymore. The whole design of the matchup is rotten to the core.
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On February 13 2019 07:43 narbsncharbs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 07:37 Zetter wrote:On February 13 2019 07:35 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 13 2019 07:31 Zetter wrote:On February 13 2019 06:58 freelifeffs wrote:
thanks but its not enough. protoss is on an absolute murder spree vs terran and zerg blows in general. i expected more than one tiny rollback. disappointed. What kind of murder spree? PvT is 30-31 in maps across WCS and GSL and 11-13 in series. Tournament results are nothing out of the ordinary right now. Stats was sick during his matches recently and instead of blanket-storming an entire army he thought it would be wiser to feedback a raven instead. Low and behold, that isn't terran winning the game, that's protoss losing it. I'm sure there are other recent games that you are including here that should have gone in favor of protoss if not due to bad decision making. Right now as it stands P > T by a large margin, even when both races play 100% perfect. What kind of data can you bring forward to support your claim? Oh and the other game he lost vs terran, he chose the worst build, even the casters wanted to play against stats with him using that build. This takes a match away from terran and gives it to protoss, now edit those numbers  . I'll do more research and report back. I need to find the demu vod of him showing the ladder stats, it's quite ridiculous. That will definitely count for something. A little hint-protoss vs terran is every tosses best match, BY A LARGE MARGIN.....even the protosses who's worst matchup was historically vs terran, it is now their best. food for thought. In terms of stats, casters & demuslim were talking about him being sick. It's in the vods, you can verify them.
So what you're saying is, when protoss loses it's the players off their game, but when terran loses it's a balance issue?
These weird double standards have used since the game started, though back then when faced with TvP and TvZ stats favouring Terran by significant margins, the TL terrans just argued that the terran players were simply better and no changes were needed.
On the topic of this change, it's fine. There was concern even from protoss players when all the changes were announced that faster warpgate combined with slightly quicker blink could be a bit much. I figured it would probably have to be toned down a bit.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On February 13 2019 07:35 narbsncharbs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 07:31 Zetter wrote:On February 13 2019 06:58 freelifeffs wrote:
thanks but its not enough. protoss is on an absolute murder spree vs terran and zerg blows in general. i expected more than one tiny rollback. disappointed. What kind of murder spree? PvT is 30-31 in maps across WCS and GSL and 11-13 in series. Tournament results are nothing out of the ordinary right now. Stats was sick during his matches recently and instead of blanket-storming an entire army he thought it would be wiser to feedback a raven instead. Low and behold, that isn't terran winning the game, that's protoss losing it. I'm sure there are other recent games that you are including here that should have gone in favor of protoss if not due to bad decision making. I'll do some research. Right now as it stands P > T by a large margin, even when both races play 100% perfect.
A lot of people are saying this on a couple of forums but it's not represented by actual pro results.
I've been disappointed to see some of blizzard's official casters bringing this up repeatedly, doing what amounts pretty much to balance whine on stream (which riles up a lot of viewers) when their opinions are seemingly biased by their choice of race and the data isn't there to back it up yet, if it ever will be.
Since the changes PvT went 24-23 in WCS and 6-8 in GSL code S.
There are not even a single "patch protoss" player that i'm particularly aware of - players riding a wave of imbalance to tournament spots and victories against players that they weren't capable of matching the day before the patch. A variety of such players in all three races have been established in previous eras of starcraft imbalance that were both obviously far worse and far more long lasting than the current state of the game.
The data points to the recent changes not even hugely impacting PvT winrates (although they're a few percent better, they're not that far off of 50/50 before or after the changes)
With one of those positive changes being reverted and all of the negative changes standing, any gap should narrow slightly.
If it's as imbalanced as you and some other players say and all of those recent results were just anomalies of terran getting lucky or consistently outplaying their opponents despite that imbalance then those results most likely won't continue and you'll have statistics to back up that thusfar only perceived imbalance any week now.
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On February 13 2019 08:40 BonitiilloO wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 07:15 narbsncharbs wrote:
Giving them blink for cheap was fine, but they needed to compensate the other races. For terran, they could have shortened the build time for siege tanks which would also solve the problem mech has with never being able to trade a single army late game vs protoss/zerg. I haven't watched much PvZ so I will refrain from commenting on what I think zerg needs.
Blizzard balance team's decisions end up restricting races more than improving them. They need to rethink their approach entirely. Players want more build order options, not less. Stop making decisions that take away options or stop making decisions that create less options. Their current approach is why the game is so linear/stagnant/flavorless. Stop making this game worse blizzard, ffs.
Nerfing units/upgrades is NOT the best option in most cases. Stop doing it. Instead of nerfing, buff something on the other sides that way everyone has fun toys to play with.
The main reason mech isn't viable is because of terran's inability to remax as fast as protoss/zerg late game when trading armies. Zerg can instamax, protoss can near insta-max. Terran cannot come close at all with mech solely because of siege tank build time. Siege tanks play a huge role in the mech army. If we can't build them fast enough, how can mech compete with zerg/protoss late game if we can't even trade armies? Shorten the build time for siege tanks so we can trade armies effectively.
THINK ABOUT IT BLIZZARD. COMMON SENSE.
Basically with this revert, blizzard accomplished next to nothing when it comes to managing balance over the last 2 months. Who is overseeing the balance department? The balance department is not operating effectively at all and are frustrating the playerbase which can cause negative effects when it comes to customer loyalty and PR. Does blizzard not understand how balance decisions actually have an effect on their bottom line? It's things like this that make gamers want to speak bad about the company and i'm not surprised that investors have begun to notice this. Then they sell, stock plummets. In a nutshell, Blizzard is creating their own problems.
For a company that has been balancing their own game for the last decade, I would think they would have a very good understanding of how decisions can affect balance. Apparently this isn't the case. I can only hope the balance team is on the chopping block for getting laid off.
User was warned for this post. i don't understand how a constructive critic is being warned. he is just talking about the state of the game and a way to improve things, i would re contract Broodwar balance team and let them alone for 6 month to see what they can do. the only thing that bothers me about SC2 is that blizzard wants every unit to be useful in all the match ups when that's not needed, i think a decrease in cost of the factory or time would come handy without buff or nerfing units..
Neither do I, But hey, if they feel like warning people like myself for providing real well presented constructive feedback that could possibly be of value, that's on them. Makes me not want to buy their merch lol.
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In practice this amounts to ~1 less stalker during blink timings. Not game-breaking in longer matches, but makes blink all-ins less intense against T, which I think is a valid enough idea.
In all honesty, I was expecting the last patch to throw the game into a severely unbalanced state in some direction, but it seems that the dust settled and the matchups are fairly balanced. Color me satisfied.
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On February 13 2019 09:19 narbsncharbs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 08:40 BonitiilloO wrote:On February 13 2019 07:15 narbsncharbs wrote:
Giving them blink for cheap was fine, but they needed to compensate the other races. For terran, they could have shortened the build time for siege tanks which would also solve the problem mech has with never being able to trade a single army late game vs protoss/zerg. I haven't watched much PvZ so I will refrain from commenting on what I think zerg needs.
Blizzard balance team's decisions end up restricting races more than improving them. They need to rethink their approach entirely. Players want more build order options, not less. Stop making decisions that take away options or stop making decisions that create less options. Their current approach is why the game is so linear/stagnant/flavorless. Stop making this game worse blizzard, ffs.
Nerfing units/upgrades is NOT the best option in most cases. Stop doing it. Instead of nerfing, buff something on the other sides that way everyone has fun toys to play with.
The main reason mech isn't viable is because of terran's inability to remax as fast as protoss/zerg late game when trading armies. Zerg can instamax, protoss can near insta-max. Terran cannot come close at all with mech solely because of siege tank build time. Siege tanks play a huge role in the mech army. If we can't build them fast enough, how can mech compete with zerg/protoss late game if we can't even trade armies? Shorten the build time for siege tanks so we can trade armies effectively.
THINK ABOUT IT BLIZZARD. COMMON SENSE.
Basically with this revert, blizzard accomplished next to nothing when it comes to managing balance over the last 2 months. Who is overseeing the balance department? The balance department is not operating effectively at all and are frustrating the playerbase which can cause negative effects when it comes to customer loyalty and PR. Does blizzard not understand how balance decisions actually have an effect on their bottom line? It's things like this that make gamers want to speak bad about the company and i'm not surprised that investors have begun to notice this. Then they sell, stock plummets. In a nutshell, Blizzard is creating their own problems.
For a company that has been balancing their own game for the last decade, I would think they would have a very good understanding of how decisions can affect balance. Apparently this isn't the case. I can only hope the balance team is on the chopping block for getting laid off.
User was warned for this post. i don't understand how a constructive critic is being warned. he is just talking about the state of the game and a way to improve things, i would re contract Broodwar balance team and let them alone for 6 month to see what they can do. the only thing that bothers me about SC2 is that blizzard wants every unit to be useful in all the match ups when that's not needed, i think a decrease in cost of the factory or time would come handy without buff or nerfing units.. Neither do I, But hey, if they feel like warning people like myself for providing real well presented constructive feedback, that's on them. Makes me not want to buy their merch lol.
Wishing developers of the game to get fired from their job is a very fine example of being a toxic hat, you deserved that warning. If you can't see that thats on you, seeing as you followed it up not with an apology but with further namecalling says a lot about you.
In regards to the patch I believe that it wont do much to or from, the game is in a good place overall at the moment. Further adjustments might be necessary but we should wait for the meta to develop before we decide what is needed.
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I still think most of the changes made on the last big balance patch in november were bad for the game in general.
They seem to encourage even more one sided quick wins and cheese builds.
As a zerg who never had any shame in complaining about other races early game BS game ending stuff such as canonrush/shield battery immortatl/warp prism, most 2 bases builds from protoss and terran proxies..
I have to say nydus worms currently seem completely BS as well. I mean i love them, because im the one using them. But i cant imagine how it feels for protoss and terran. Over the next few months, just because of the existence of the nydus worms, we should see build diversity from other races greatly diminish ( it might have been needed, as vZ builds possibilities were completely over the top in XvZ, while ZvX builds orders were very limited before.
But just because of nydus worms, you will make many builds instant losses vs Z.
This game needs less instant win scenario under 7 minutes in the game, not more.... And the game needs more comeback potential, not less.
Queen nerfs made zerg die to alot more early game stuff, especially with new bcs, faster warp gates, overall faster 2 base all-ins, all while zerg defense got weaker.
Now you bring nydus, which fine, now zerg has some sub 7minutes insta win moments too, but it just makes the game worse over all.
I feel like in the GSL code S and top level WCS, wins under 7minutes should be very rare, and should only happen from big mistakes.
As it is, the games end way to suddenly and quickly even at the top level. The problem is only worse the lower levels you go.
TvP is all about those quick terran all ins and proxies, And its not only because protoss is too strong later in the game... The terran all ins are very hard for protoss to stop.
ZvP nowadays is alot of 2 base all ins from protoss sometimes with fake third base. Sentry/immortal 2 base is back in full force, and with the nydus worm punishing greedy stargate into archon/WP third base builds, it just makes for many many bad games. ( A one sided game where a player dies instantly to the first attack in the game under 140 supply is a bad game in my opinion).
TvZ is still the best matchup, imo. Because there is less instant game ending moments early game than the other matchups. The BC builds were ridiculous for a while, but the yamato nerf seems to have helped a good deal. ( Teleport is still stupid imo, but nydus is probably worse).
Now you got nydus though. It will take a bit longer for players to understand its uses and for the impact on the meta to occur, but it will limit build order choices or increase the quick GG moments.
I wish balance team focused more on mid game ground Units Versus ground Units interactions.
I wish ppl were more willing to take mid game fights in the middle of the map with their armies, and i wish those were not super 1 sided where its GG moment most of the time. The fights should be harder to predict and tell whos gonna win, This way the players might be less scared to fight. Right now its pretty obvious from looking at 2 armies knowing whos gonna crush the other. Because of that, its very rare for players to trade armies as they would in broodwar.
Bio TvZ is exactly that, and thats why its been the most beloved matchup in all of SC2.
Its very hard to predict whos gonna win the fight, mid fight micro is very important and rewarding, and usually 1 battle does not mean GG. The players usually trade units all game long, in multiple places sometimes, in a very close fasion. Just like it should be, just like in BW.
TvP and PvZ fights are just incredibly one sided , and we could add Mech VS Z as well. WIth the power of warp-ins and warp-prisms, once protoss start winning a fight or gets a good fight, the game is over as protoss can instantly reinforce his tech units ( that are always last to die, looking at immortals mostly) with massses of charge zlots, stalkers, templars,(archons),warp-ins, never giving time for opposing player to assemble another army and get back on the feet, instantly ending the game.
In 2017, when they design changed disruptors, widowmines, and burrow fungal, they said they wanted to have less game ending moments. It was a great call.
In 2018 we had the best year in a long time.
At the end of 2018, they bring back tons of game ending moments and revert most of the changes they had made to help reduce them.
No sense made.
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On February 13 2019 09:28 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 09:19 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 13 2019 08:40 BonitiilloO wrote:On February 13 2019 07:15 narbsncharbs wrote:
Giving them blink for cheap was fine, but they needed to compensate the other races. For terran, they could have shortened the build time for siege tanks which would also solve the problem mech has with never being able to trade a single army late game vs protoss/zerg. I haven't watched much PvZ so I will refrain from commenting on what I think zerg needs.
Blizzard balance team's decisions end up restricting races more than improving them. They need to rethink their approach entirely. Players want more build order options, not less. Stop making decisions that take away options or stop making decisions that create less options. Their current approach is why the game is so linear/stagnant/flavorless. Stop making this game worse blizzard, ffs.
Nerfing units/upgrades is NOT the best option in most cases. Stop doing it. Instead of nerfing, buff something on the other sides that way everyone has fun toys to play with.
The main reason mech isn't viable is because of terran's inability to remax as fast as protoss/zerg late game when trading armies. Zerg can instamax, protoss can near insta-max. Terran cannot come close at all with mech solely because of siege tank build time. Siege tanks play a huge role in the mech army. If we can't build them fast enough, how can mech compete with zerg/protoss late game if we can't even trade armies? Shorten the build time for siege tanks so we can trade armies effectively.
THINK ABOUT IT BLIZZARD. COMMON SENSE.
Basically with this revert, blizzard accomplished next to nothing when it comes to managing balance over the last 2 months. Who is overseeing the balance department? The balance department is not operating effectively at all and are frustrating the playerbase which can cause negative effects when it comes to customer loyalty and PR. Does blizzard not understand how balance decisions actually have an effect on their bottom line? It's things like this that make gamers want to speak bad about the company and i'm not surprised that investors have begun to notice this. Then they sell, stock plummets. In a nutshell, Blizzard is creating their own problems.
For a company that has been balancing their own game for the last decade, I would think they would have a very good understanding of how decisions can affect balance. Apparently this isn't the case. I can only hope the balance team is on the chopping block for getting laid off.
User was warned for this post. i don't understand how a constructive critic is being warned. he is just talking about the state of the game and a way to improve things, i would re contract Broodwar balance team and let them alone for 6 month to see what they can do. the only thing that bothers me about SC2 is that blizzard wants every unit to be useful in all the match ups when that's not needed, i think a decrease in cost of the factory or time would come handy without buff or nerfing units.. Neither do I, But hey, if they feel like warning people like myself for providing real well presented constructive feedback, that's on them. Makes me not want to buy their merch lol. Wishing developers of the game to get fired from their job is a very fine example of being a toxic hat, you deserved that warning. If you can't see that thats on you, seeing as you followed it up not with an apology but with further namecalling says a lot about you. In regards to the patch I believe that it wont do much to or from, the game is in a good place overall at the moment. Further adjustments might be necessary but we should wait for the meta to develop before we decide what is needed.
It's not out of malice though. It's so they hire more competent people so that players find enjoyment in the game as a result of proper balance. It's for the greater good. I mean, cmon, You wouldn't want someone who doesn't know how to cook a meal to make you a feast, would you? Of course not.
Also, you can't compare me to a "toxic hat" and then try to take the high ground in regards to name calling. That's not how this works, that's not how any of this works. If you have a problem with me, pm me directly instead of derailing the thread. Thanks.
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On February 13 2019 09:07 DubiousC2 wrote:
I don't get it. Do they enjoy watching a2 base tank + scv rushes every TVP? Is this what they had envisioned for the matchup?
It's not even about balance anymore. The whole design of the matchup is rotten to the core.
This is the important part, people talk about win rates and what not but have they seen the games? 2 base tank all ins and SCV pulls almost every game. That is an awful meta, forget about winrates and focus on the actual game instead. We went from a proxy meta to an all in meta because they care more about keeping winrates than about making the game enjoyable to play and watch and that is the wrong approach.
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What i see is terans just wish to still abuse bio mobility, because they practice this for years and crying when this not working vs everything.
BCs is pretty good right now, but terans need to learn play them properly, they are not flying tanks.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
This is the important part, people talk about win rates and what not but have they seen the games? 2 base tank all ins and SCV pulls almost every game. That is an awful meta
That's a design discussion, not a balance discussion. We have changes targetting both game design and balance but it's important not to mix the two up as most people seem to do regularly.
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I feel that games where protoss fails to build storm/hts even though there was more than enough income/time to do so but loses, should not be taken into consideration when it comes to balance statistics. The same goes for a protoss using the wrong ability by accident throwing a game down the tubes. Those aren't representations of balance, only representations of mistakes.
The same goes for any race.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On February 13 2019 10:03 narbsncharbs wrote:
I feel that games where protoss fails to build storm/hts even though there was more than enough income/time to do so but loses, should not be taken into consideration when it comes to balance statistics. The same goes for a protoss using the wrong ability by accident throwing a game down the tubes. Those aren't representations of balance, only representations of mistakes.
The same goes for any race.
And who should be the all powerful arbitrator to decide if one player deserves to win or not? Maybe his opponent didn't scan something that they should have, split their marines quite good enough or the map wasn't quite fair to Terran so shouldn't be included either. Everyone makes many mistakes of varying impact, they are human starcraft leagues and not terminator leagues.
When the data doesn't fit your opinion it's usually better to wait for more data and/or change your opinion to match the data, rather than trying to change the data to match your opinion.
If there is a balance problem large and consistent enough to be worth changing it will become obvious in the data, that has been true time and time again for the last 8 and a half years.
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On February 13 2019 09:12 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2019 07:43 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 13 2019 07:37 Zetter wrote:On February 13 2019 07:35 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 13 2019 07:31 Zetter wrote:On February 13 2019 06:58 freelifeffs wrote:
thanks but its not enough. protoss is on an absolute murder spree vs terran and zerg blows in general. i expected more than one tiny rollback. disappointed. What kind of murder spree? PvT is 30-31 in maps across WCS and GSL and 11-13 in series. Tournament results are nothing out of the ordinary right now. Stats was sick during his matches recently and instead of blanket-storming an entire army he thought it would be wiser to feedback a raven instead. Low and behold, that isn't terran winning the game, that's protoss losing it. I'm sure there are other recent games that you are including here that should have gone in favor of protoss if not due to bad decision making. Right now as it stands P > T by a large margin, even when both races play 100% perfect. What kind of data can you bring forward to support your claim? Oh and the other game he lost vs terran, he chose the worst build, even the casters wanted to play against stats with him using that build. This takes a match away from terran and gives it to protoss, now edit those numbers . I'll do more research and report back. I need to find the demu vod of him showing the ladder stats, it's quite ridiculous. That will definitely count for something. A little hint-protoss vs terran is every tosses best match, BY A LARGE MARGIN.....even the protosses who's worst matchup was historically vs terran, it is now their best. food for thought. In terms of stats, casters & demuslim were talking about him being sick. It's in the vods, you can verify them. So what you're saying is, when protoss loses it's the players off their game, but when terran loses it's a balance issue? These weird double standards have used since the game started, though back then when faced with TvP and TvZ stats favouring Terran by significant margins, the TL terrans just argued that the terran players were simply better and no changes were needed. On the topic of this change, it's fine. There was concern even from protoss players when all the changes were announced that faster warpgate combined with slightly quicker blink could be a bit much. I figured it would probably have to be toned down a bit.
Welcome to starcraft 2 and teamliquid, unfortunately. Protoss has been the least played race since the dawn on Heart of the Swarm, so the complaints against them have been from a large and loud majority. Who needs statistics or evidence when a lot of angry nerds can cry imbalance because they "feel" it to be so? These people's cries will only subside when Protoss is completely bottom barrel.... But even then, not really.
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If you watched the games, you should know.
Stats had one game on lock down, never built storm even though he could, proceeded to get rekt. It's not a representation of optimal play. Sub-optimal play is not an indicator of true strength. True balance is revealed when races are played optimally. It has nothing to do with an "arbitrator", you can stop that now. It has to do with balancing around optimal gameplay. Why you are suggesting is that no matter what, only numbers be considered. Which is flat out wrong, because numbers never tell the full story. In theory, with the system you are suggesting is that even if A protoss could screw up a wall 30 times vs zerg and lost 30 games, that zerg is imbalanced solely because of statistics. No, those games don't even count towards balance because the protoss didn't wall properly. Same thing goes for half of those gsl pvts. Same goes for stats, he didn't make the right decisions so how could those games be counted towards weighing balance statistics to see if the sides are even?
Be open minded here, win/loss statistics are not the end all be all when it comes to balance. You still have to sift through those games and make sure they aren't like the examples above. If they are, then they get removed from the sample. Hence why I suggested earlier in the thread that those games not even be counted.
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I can see why the balance team doesn't want to make any large change before Katowice, but making a small change like this to the big problems with PvT is just incensing people. Oh well at least the change is reasonable.
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EPT
