Feb 12 Community Update (Blink cost rollback) - Page 3

On February 13 2019 10:30 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
I can see why the balance team doesn't want to make any large change before Katowice, but making a small change like this to the big problems with PvT is just incensing people. Oh well at least the change is reasonable.

On February 13 2019 10:52 Cyro wrote:


Is it your opinion that the matchup is heavily protoss favored? If so, why?

My analysis thusfar has brought up that some vocal terran players don't enjoy playing TvP at the moment and would often like design changes to their race to play out the matchup differently.

It has brought up no significant evidence yet of problematic imbalance in the performance of the matchup, e.g. TvP being 8-6 in GSL code S and 23-24 in WCS since the last round of changes.

On February 13 2019 11:55 DomeGetta wrote:


Should really discount the non code S games tbh. Terrans outside of Korea arent really competitive with top players in the world outside of special. The ro32 in wcs Na is an actual joke. So special crushing those kids means 0. There reqlly isnt even 1 terran worth mentioning from Eu and in all honesty u have maybe 2 protosses on Eu and 1 in NA that are competitive on that level. Stats losing is unexpected but not that unexpected since he has not had a lot of time to work out new meta. What we have seen preceding and during many of the total bullshit eras for tvp tho is the unrelenting onslaught of 2 base all ins. The players know before we do. They play constantly vs the best and they start this behavior when it gives them the best possible chance to win. Same exact thing happened after the last big patch and then toss adjusted vs the 2 base all ins and we got the 6 month proxy shit show. Matchup really never got fixed. The few games we have seen so far say nothing for or against that but the fact that its fairly obvious T still doesnt have the option to play a macrogame needs addressing. Maybe they will eventually open their eyes and relook at chrono like people have been saying since they changed it. U cant have better ultimate tech and be ahead on upgrades all game and expect a terran player to say " u kno what..i think im gonna 3 cc into a macrogame..my future as a pro gamer depends on it..ya ya seems good"

On February 13 2019 12:11 Cyro wrote:




I do generally agree with you, but this makes the rest of the point come off as "Protoss have a 43% winrate but they lost in the wrong way so need to be nerfed". It's also highlighting the lack of data, that all of this judgement is coming off of only 14 games which could swing 60/40 either way based on luck on any given week even in a perfectly balanced matchup.

Seems like your complaints are similarly about the design of the matchup rather than the balance of it

On February 13 2019 07:31 Zetter wrote:


What kind of murder spree? PvT is 30-31 in maps across WCS and GSL and 11-13 in series. Tournament results are nothing out of the ordinary right now.

On February 13 2019 11:53 Creager wrote:


What the actual f**k?! They came to the conclusion the upgrade cost reduction is not necessary at this time AFTER reading all the feedback (mind this is three weeks after the patch release)?! They could've read plenty of the very same feedback the week after proposing this BS in the first place, but instead they decided to push through with all the changes regardless...

Whoever is deciding on these clearly has absolutely no vision about the state of balance, at all, it's just ridiculous at this point. When you want to try out-of-the-blue random changes hoping they somehow miraculously work out, at least F**KING PLAYTEST them beforehand - the more, the better!
How about the test map/test ladder? Too little sample size due to the lack of players? Maybe churn out some rewards in return for helping out... Or even better: Maybe PAY people for doing that ffs...

Oh wait, I forgot management just had to lay off 800 people after announcing a record year, but that's another topic, I guess.

On February 13 2019 10:14 Cyro wrote:

And who should be the all powerful arbitrator to decide if one player deserves to win or not? Maybe his opponent didn't scan something that they should have, split their marines quite good enough or the map wasn't quite fair to Terran so shouldn't be included either. Everyone makes many mistakes of varying impact, they are human starcraft leagues and not terminator leagues.

When the data doesn't fit your opinion it's usually better to wait for more data and/or change your opinion to match the data, rather than trying to change the data to match your opinion.

If there is a balance problem large and consistent enough to be worth changing it will become obvious in the data, that has been true time and time again for the last 8 and a half years.

On February 13 2019 10:37 pvsnp wrote:
Meh.

At the end of the day PvT is reasonably well balanced, even if it's heavily dependent on allins. Doubtless the fans will be thrilled to see tank pushes every game, but a win's a win. Tank push or otherwise.

It's not ideal, but I guess the balance team thinks it's good enough for the big tournaments.

On February 13 2019 10:37 pvsnp wrote:
Meh.

At the end of the day PvT is reasonably well balanced, even if it's heavily dependent on allins. Doubtless the fans will be thrilled to see tank pushes every game, but a win's a win. Tank push or otherwise.

It's not ideal, but I guess the balance team thinks it's good enough for the big tournaments.

On February 13 2019 17:48 Olli wrote:
Don't think this is a change that'll really do anything. It didn't do much in game either. Makes you a bit safer early on as your robo starts 50 gas earlier, but what else does it really do? You can afford blink the second a TC finishes, even at 150/150.

The real issues in PvT are caused by the economic dynamics between the races. Protoss can hold a greedy third base quite easily, and if you combine better economy (= better production) with stronger units, you get a stronger setup. That means Terrans are on a timer every game. Break the Protoss third (or inflict enough damage before) or watch them get out of control. Keeping up in economy is extremely difficult because it removes pressure potential and hands Protoss a free pass to tech into powerful lategame tech like storm or tempests pretty much unhindered, and they'll be favored again.

On the other hand, Protoss needs that early third, otherwise its supposedly cost effective units aren't all that cost effective compared to what Terran can produce off an equal economy bolstered with mules. You get stuck on 2 bases very easily while Terran can then expand freely, keep you pinned back with a stronger standing army, and backstab whenever you move out. That's partially why builds like 2 base double forge colossus or defensive 2 base storm/immortal builds have died out. They're cost effective for a while, but have essentially no map control and then simply can't keep up with the sheer amount of stuff Terran will produce.

This is an issue Blizzard will have to solve if they ever want to really address PvT. They either need to make it so Terran can more easily keep up with a greedy Protoss third through their own macro and tech, or they need to make it so Terrans can more easily break greedy thirds - while at the same time reinstalling some balance between the two on 2 bases, which I think right now favores Terran quite a bit as their expansion timing will naturally be ahead and put Protoss on a similar timer - only with Terran holding all the map control.

Meanwhile in foreign land, they are 2 terrans in the top 16 players of WCS Europe.