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On February 21 2019 19:08 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think a great solution is adding +5 damage to the base siege of the liberator to make terrans +2 +2 +1 push before the late game much more impactful indirectly making toss either have to opt for more on stalkers or more on anti-air def. For those wondering each attack, upgrade adds +5 damage to the liberator so at +2 the liberator does just enough to 2 shot stalkers like they used to. I think +2 is too long but I think no upgrade is too strong also. I think the halfway point of making it +1 is just fine as it cannot really be abused too early and it comes out just before late game making it an option people would have to opt into and still build the liberator count for. I also think the liberator should get a slight build time buff as it takes currently 43 seconds. Maybe knocking off 5 seconds may help though it may also be op vs Terran a cyclone should still come out faster than a liberator same with a Viking. Buffing bio is too strong as it will affect TvZ and TvT, so buffing midgame units that are needed a lot vs protoss is the way to go I feel like. Another thing that can be taken into consideration is maybe stim research time. Stim being lowered is a very controversial topic but I think maybe by slightly decreasing its build time it will allow Terran to get out onto the map much faster, its also just an upgrade that is basically essential to playing bio but will always come out later than upgrades say like blink or charge and can be sniped off more easily (Reference to Zest vs aLive at GSL that was kind of depressing but Zest played amazingly) Another option to consider would be buffing Terran economy or defense maybe making mules mine the 5 more minerals they used to mine back in HotS to give greater incentive to terrans for going into 3CC Macro builds vs Toss. Cause at the moment there is little to no reason to go 3CC unless you are really confident that you're better.
I do agree that we can tinkle with the Liberator a bit.
I'm still on the side thinking that the 10 damage nerf two years ago (wow, time flies) was a tad too much.
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The balance patch is live now. Thanks Blizzard!
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On February 21 2019 19:08 Ryu3600 wrote:
I think a great solution is adding +5 damage to the base siege of the liberator to make terrans +2 +2 +1 push before the late game much more impactful indirectly making toss either have to opt for more on stalkers or more on anti-air def. For those wondering each attack, upgrade adds +5 damage to the liberator so at +2 the liberator does just enough to 2 shot stalkers like they used to. I think +2 is too long but I think no upgrade is too strong also. I think the halfway point of making it +1 is just fine as it cannot really be abused too early and it comes out just before late game making it an option people would have to opt into and still build the liberator count for. I also think the liberator should get a slight build time buff as it takes currently 43 seconds. Maybe knocking off 5 seconds may help though it may also be op vs Terran a cyclone should still come out faster than a liberator same with a Viking. Buffing bio is too strong as it will affect TvZ and TvT, so buffing midgame units that are needed a lot vs protoss is the way to go I feel like. Another thing that can be taken into consideration is maybe stim research time. Stim being lowered is a very controversial topic but I think maybe by slightly decreasing its build time it will allow Terran to get out onto the map much faster, its also just an upgrade that is basically essential to playing bio but will always come out later than upgrades say like blink or charge and can be sniped off more easily (Reference to Zest vs aLive at GSL that was kind of depressing but Zest played amazingly) Another option to consider would be buffing Terran economy or defense maybe making mules mine the 5 more minerals they used to mine back in HotS to give greater incentive to terrans for going into 3CC Macro builds vs Toss. Cause at the moment there is little to no reason to go 3CC unless you are really confident that you're better.
Stim buff is a big no no. Lowering uograde time will make Marine early game pushes so much op in TvZ, especially with current Queen nerf.
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That was sure they would revert this, that was really insane.
Hope that will be enough though.
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I mean 1 Terran out of 12 players is a pretty good rate 
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and he didnt win a single map xD
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Something needs to be done with nydus. It's too much. I've never seen Parting complain about balance on stream in a year of watching him but even he was saying that some of the ultra-fast nydus rushes with it are basically impossible to stop unless you know they are coming (which on long rush maps like Year Zero, you can't because your scouting adept can't scout it in time. He showed this in the replay on his stream). Lots of prominent pros and streamers are saying it's too much. Rotterdam was saying that the new nydus is a big factor in why he wasn't having as much fun with SC2 lately.
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Buffed Tanks (like never before), buffed marauders, bufffed widow mines, ridiculous economy with low worker count, buffed Bc's, buffed Thors.. as for terran whining... Just F*** Off !
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Warprism+mass chargelots is also insta win for Protoss if not scouted. And as i agree with nydus being ballshit right now, this argument is ballshit too.
They should nerf nydus little bit and bring back Overlord Drops at hatchery tech to keep some agressive options in early game for Zerg. If they only nerf nydus, Protoss will be back to this ballshit state, where thay can do whatever they want without even thinking about possibility of danger.
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On March 08 2019 14:53 Parcelleus wrote:
Buffed Tanks (like never before), buffed marauders, bufffed widow mines, ridiculous economy with low worker count, buffed Bc's, buffed Thors.. as for terran whining... Just F*** Off !
lol its possible to be hyperbolic about any of the races, that proves nothing. Like can you imagine the ability to get map hacks with free building across the map that also makes your units move faster? and buffing ultras so they are even faster?? Instant nydus worm?? ridiculous! /s
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On March 08 2019 15:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Warprism+mass chargelots is also insta win for Protoss if not scouted. And as i agree with nydus being ballshit right now, this argument is ballshit too.
They should nerf nydus little bit and bring back Overlord Drops at hatchery tech to keep some agressive options in early game for Zerg. If they only nerf nydus, Protoss will be back to this ballshit state, where thay can do whatever they want without even thinking about possibility of danger.
not sure if serious
first of all, the prism + chargelot argument doesnt even make sense. if prism + chargelot = instawin, then protoss wouldve dominated all the tournaments over the years.
second of all, don't apply equal standards to all races. race asymmetry is the hallmark of starcraft. the protoss armies are slow and heavily reliant on death balls, ie the armies need a variety of units together to not get slaughtered. without warp prism, protoss would have zero ability to have some kind of sustained map presence (zerg has creep + fastest armies in the game, and terran has their entrenched positions) in the mid to late game.
the mechanics are different as well. the nydus is the most powerful all-in tool in the game. a warp prism, as well as terran doom drop, can be scouted, repelled/killed easily and that's that. and they are only as strong as their cargo. Nydus only needs vision, which zerg has plenty of methods (overlord, overseer, changeling, speedling) to threaten moving an entire army into enemy base. Nydus worms are cheap and difficult to kill with no cool down
of course there are the little things that nydus networks allow to do which is real BS. teleporting mass queens, an incredibly pound-for-pound strong unit in the early game and eliminating their drawback of being slow af. allowing for swarm host hit and run, where even if the terran/protoss has his base covered, a zerg can nydus right outside and throw free units at enemy base
so while a protoss/terran player, with slower armies is busy trying to level the playing field by killing creep so that the zerg doesnt have complete reign over the map, the zerg army, which is already probably already running circles around the terran/protoss army, can teleport into the terran/protoss sim city for 50/50.
zerg logistics are just insane
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On March 08 2019 14:53 Parcelleus wrote:
Buffed Tanks (like never before), buffed marauders, bufffed widow mines, ridiculous economy with low worker count, buffed Bc's, buffed Thors.. as for terran whining... Just F*** Off !
but they didn't buff the freedom circle tho
some things are not easy to replace and freedom is one of them 
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Although based on Katowice in isolation, the evidence is pretty damning I think we need to wait at least until the conclusion of GSL S1 before any huge changes are made. Furthermore, it would have to be a buff to terran rather than a protoss nerf as honestly, the state of PvZ has been almost as dire as TvP for a while now.
The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up.
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On March 08 2019 12:08 Ben... wrote:
Something needs to be done with nydus. It's too much. I've never seen Parting complain about balance on stream in a year of watching him but even he was saying that some of the ultra-fast nydus rushes with it are basically impossible to stop unless you know they are coming (which on long rush maps like Year Zero, you can't because your scouting adept can't scout it in time. He showed this in the replay on his stream). Lots of prominent pros and streamers are saying it's too much. Rotterdam was saying that the new nydus is a big factor in why he wasn't having as much fun with SC2 lately.
well...when someone in the balance team wondering how does it feel to get proxy BC'd as protoss but real BCs suck so they give zerg new "BC" instead
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On March 09 2019 08:58 Z3nith wrote:
Although based on Katowice in isolation, the evidence is pretty damning I think we need to wait at least until the conclusion of GSL S1 before any huge changes are made. Furthermore, it would have to be a buff to terran rather than a protoss nerf as honestly, the state of PvZ has been almost as dire as TvP for a while now.
The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up.
i agree but one thing
whatever they do to this game i don't want to watch the same damn TvP throughout 3 fucking GSLs like last year
thier decisions in last year were ineffective and only promoted moar hideous terran's builds
they need to hit harder,stronger
make everything burnssssss
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On March 09 2019 08:58 Z3nith wrote:
Although based on Katowice in isolation, the evidence is pretty damning I think we need to wait at least until the conclusion of GSL S1 before any huge changes are made. Furthermore, it would have to be a buff to terran rather than a protoss nerf as honestly, the state of PvZ has been almost as dire as TvP for a while now.
The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up.
The reason you dont know what you could do fix your problem is because there is no problem. Terran does not need a buff, especially with regards to your idea of a "2.5" ground unit.
Terran already has ground units to augment the insane efficiency of bio. Tanks, Widow Mines, and even Thors. Battlecruisers and Ghosts already massacre Zerg, and you want to buff them without breaking TvZ? And the Raven, which is already one buff from being broken again? Interference matrix already shuts down any disruptor/collussus necessary to prevent gateway units from being melted by bio.
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On March 09 2019 09:15 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2019 08:58 Z3nith wrote:
Although based on Katowice in isolation, the evidence is pretty damning I think we need to wait at least until the conclusion of GSL S1 before any huge changes are made. Furthermore, it would have to be a buff to terran rather than a protoss nerf as honestly, the state of PvZ has been almost as dire as TvP for a while now.
The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up. The reason you dont know what you could do fix your problem is because there is no problem. Terran does not need a buff, especially with regards to your idea of a "2.5" ground unit. Terran already has ground units to augment the insane efficiency of bio. Tanks, Widow Mines, and even Thors. Battlecruisers and Ghosts already massacre Zerg, and you want to buff them without breaking TvZ? And the Raven, which is already one buff from being broken again? Interference matrix already shuts down any disruptor/collussus necessary to prevent gateway units from being melted by bio.
No I do think there is a problem, although admittedly it likely isn't as bad as many Terrans make it out to be. The entire basis of Terran strategy versus Protoss at the moment is the exact opposite of what the design team had in mind in regards to immediate game ending scenarios. It seems that most TvPs end in the mid-game when the Terran either rolls over the Protoss through a timing attack or the protoss defends said timing attack and just wins. If I could honestly say that I could see the possibility of Terran wanting to go into the late game versus Protoss then fair enough but the fact is that for the past year or so there have been a distinct lack of PvT games that make it past the midgame.
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On March 09 2019 08:23 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2019 15:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Warprism+mass chargelots is also insta win for Protoss if not scouted. And as i agree with nydus being ballshit right now, this argument is ballshit too.
They should nerf nydus little bit and bring back Overlord Drops at hatchery tech to keep some agressive options in early game for Zerg. If they only nerf nydus, Protoss will be back to this ballshit state, where thay can do whatever they want without even thinking about possibility of danger. not sure if serious first of all, the prism + chargelot argument doesnt even make sense. if prism + chargelot = instawin, then protoss wouldve dominated all the tournaments over the years. second of all, don't apply equal standards to all races. race asymmetry is the hallmark of starcraft. the protoss armies are slow and heavily reliant on death balls, ie the armies need a variety of units together to not get slaughtered. without warp prism, protoss would have zero ability to have some kind of sustained map presence (zerg has creep + fastest armies in the game, and terran has their entrenched positions) in the mid to late game. the mechanics are different as well. the nydus is the most powerful all-in tool in the game. a warp prism, as well as terran doom drop, can be scouted, repelled/killed easily and that's that. and they are only as strong as their cargo. Nydus only needs vision, which zerg has plenty of methods (overlord, overseer, changeling, speedling) to threaten moving an entire army into enemy base. Nydus worms are cheap and difficult to kill with no cool down of course there are the little things that nydus networks allow to do which is real BS. teleporting mass queens, an incredibly pound-for-pound strong unit in the early game and eliminating their drawback of being slow af. allowing for swarm host hit and run, where even if the terran/protoss has his base covered, a zerg can nydus right outside and throw free units at enemy base so while a protoss/terran player, with slower armies is busy trying to level the playing field by killing creep so that the zerg doesnt have complete reign over the map, the zerg army, which is already probably already running circles around the terran/protoss army, can teleport into the terran/protoss sim city for 50/50. zerg logistics are just insane
Fastest nyndus build i know is hatch first, lair ASAP no speedling, 1 more gas, roach warren, nyndus and it comes at 4:30.
This build have existed since ever (here is a vod from 2015 that explains how to do it : www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUjLd0LPqfQ)...
The change on nyndus doesn't make it much stronger, actually before it was invincible and you couldn't prevent it to pop.
The scouting is easy, you send the shade of your adept on B1 to check and see the fast lair, aslo no B3 (or maybe a fake one), no speedling . And then like vs every two bases all-in you cut worker production and build emergency army.
The number of units you need to kill a nyndus have been posted on battle.net :
0.1 time reaction :
https://docdro.id/wz6J3zH
5s time reaction (= 9s left to kill nyndus):
https://docdro.id/qGPxs9N
10s time reaction :
https://docdro.id/96SVCKx
No way this all-in works vs someone decent if scouted. The problem is you don't scout... Also you start whining here for that one time you need to learn to deal with a cheese from zerg, while zerg has to learn each season to defend the new P/T cheese :
Beginning of LOTV : proxy reapers everygame, adepts cheese each time, MSC core harass, then 2/1/1, oracles harass, PICA, archons drops etc...
Now recently we had the proxy canon immortal/shield batteries, we face archons drops every games, learn to face the BC with teleport, cyclons/hellions new style, and we still need to know how to counter the old shool cheeses. Recently, i've die on a proxy reaper as i was doing the fast three hatch before the first reaper arrive so i have late speedling.
You complain that each nyndus you kill only cost 50/50 ? I would love to make that trade, currently if i don't see the DT i'm dead, but if i perfectly react to it, Protoss just make archons, kill free stuff, and with pick up range he can't lose them. And sorry, if zerg is doing the nyndus all-in, he is all-in, it fails end of the game = victory for you. The BC/archons drops etc... are not all-in, we don't counter =defeat for us, we counter and the game just continue and we can still lose.
Here you seem like the the child too spoiled that start to complain at the first frustration while his other siblings were taught the hard way and suffered ten times more than that without complaining.
So pick the data we provide to you, learn to counter that BO, and stop acting it's imbalance when it's just a learn to play issue like us zerg need to face every seasons.
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EPT
