Feb 12 Community Update (Blink cost rollback)

Feb 12 Community Update (Blink cost rollback) - Page 10

MockHamill

Sweden1798 Posts

March 09 2019 15:46 GMT

#181

Well if you give one race HT/Distruptors/Archons/Colossuss/Tempest/Carrier and the other race Marine/Marauder/Medivac with Liberator/Ghost support it is not surprising that the Marine side try to end the game before late game.

Even though it is theoretically possible to play late game vs Protoss the mechanical requirements are so extremely high it is not feasible in practice.

I am not sure what the solution is. Maybe decrease Disruptor range and making HT 3 supply would help somewhat in the late game. Making Tempest less of hard counter to BCs would also help.

Ben...

Canada3485 Posts

March 09 2019 16:48 GMT

#182

On March 09 2019 21:31 Tyrhanius wrote:

Show nested quote +

On March 09 2019 08:23 BerserkSword wrote:

On March 08 2019 15:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Warprism+mass chargelots is also insta win for Protoss if not scouted. And as i agree with nydus being ballshit right now, this argument is ballshit too.

They should nerf nydus little bit and bring back Overlord Drops at hatchery tech to keep some agressive options in early game for Zerg. If they only nerf nydus, Protoss will be back to this ballshit state, where thay can do whatever they want without even thinking about possibility of danger.

not sure if serious

first of all, the prism + chargelot argument doesnt even make sense. if prism + chargelot = instawin, then protoss wouldve dominated all the tournaments over the years.

second of all, don't apply equal standards to all races. race asymmetry is the hallmark of starcraft. the protoss armies are slow and heavily reliant on death balls, ie the armies need a variety of units together to not get slaughtered. without warp prism, protoss would have zero ability to have some kind of sustained map presence (zerg has creep + fastest armies in the game, and terran has their entrenched positions) in the mid to late game.

the mechanics are different as well. the nydus is the most powerful all-in tool in the game. a warp prism, as well as terran doom drop, can be scouted, repelled/killed easily and that's that. and they are only as strong as their cargo. Nydus only needs vision, which zerg has plenty of methods (overlord, overseer, changeling, speedling) to threaten moving an entire army into enemy base. Nydus worms are cheap and difficult to kill with no cool down

of course there are the little things that nydus networks allow to do which is real BS. teleporting mass queens, an incredibly pound-for-pound strong unit in the early game and eliminating their drawback of being slow af. allowing for swarm host hit and run, where even if the terran/protoss has his base covered, a zerg can nydus right outside and throw free units at enemy base

so while a protoss/terran player, with slower armies is busy trying to level the playing field by killing creep so that the zerg doesnt have complete reign over the map, the zerg army, which is already probably already running circles around the terran/protoss army, can teleport into the terran/protoss sim city for 50/50.

zerg logistics are just insane

Fastest nyndus build i know is hatch first, lair ASAP no speedling, 1 more gas, roach warren, nyndus and it comes at 4:30.

This build have existed since ever (here is a vod from 2015 that explains how to do it : www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUjLd0LPqfQ)...

The change on nyndus doesn't make it much stronger, actually before it was invincible and you couldn't prevent it to pop.

The scouting is easy, you send the shade of your adept on B1 to check and see the fast lair, aslo no B3 (or maybe a fake one), no speedling . And then like vs every two bases all-in you cut worker production and build emergency army.

The number of units you need to kill a nyndus have been posted on battle.net :

0.1 time reaction :
https://docdro.id/wz6J3zH

5s time reaction (= 9s left to kill nyndus):
https://docdro.id/qGPxs9N

10s time reaction :
https://docdro.id/96SVCKx

No way this all-in works vs someone decent if scouted. The problem is you don't scout... Also you start whining here for that one time you need to learn to deal with a cheese from zerg, while zerg has to learn each season to defend the new P/T cheese :

Beginning of LOTV : proxy reapers everygame, adepts cheese each time, MSC core harass, then 2/1/1, oracles harass, PICA, archons drops etc...

Now recently we had the proxy canon immortal/shield batteries, we face archons drops every games, learn to face the BC with teleport, cyclons/hellions new style, and we still need to know how to counter the old shool cheeses. Recently, i've die on a proxy reaper as i was doing the fast three hatch before the first reaper arrive so i have late speedling.

You complain that each nyndus you kill only cost 50/50 ? I would love to make that trade, currently if i don't see the DT i'm dead, but if i perfectly react to it, Protoss just make archons, kill free stuff, and with pick up range he can't lose them. And sorry, if zerg is doing the nyndus all-in, he is all-in, it fails end of the game = victory for you. The BC/archons drops etc... are not all-in, we don't counter =defeat for us, we counter and the game just continue and we can still lose.

Here you seem like the the child too spoiled that start to complain at the first frustration while his other siblings were taught the hard way and suffered ten times more than that without complaining.

So pick the data we provide to you, learn to counter that BO, and stop acting it's imbalance when it's just a learn to play issue like us zerg need to face every seasons.

You're missing the point and your knowledge is out of date. Parting faced a nydus rush on stream that hit at 3:50 that featured 3-4 queens and mass zerglings off essentially one base (there was a second hatchery for production only). This rush has also appeared on several other prominent protoss streams. That timing is before warpgate is done, and on the map he was on, Year Zero, the rush distance was big enough that adepts would be unable to make it to the main to scout in time or would scout as the worm was already put down in the protoss base. Parting actually managed to kill the first nydus head after the queens and some of the zerglings had got out, but the problem is that the zerg started a second at his natural the instant the first one finished and it was more or less unstoppable since all Parting's units were tied up in the main trying to kill the all the units there. So he then proceeded to lose his entire natural mineral line with little in ways to defend.

The problem isn't the rush itself, it's that this rush is in the same category as the 1/1/1 was. If you prepare for it and it happens, you're fine, but if you prepare and it doesn't happen you are automatically behind and will likely lose. Not preparing for it amounts to a build order loss. It's the same reasoning they got rid of hatch tech drops last year. Those forced the opponent to play a certain way to defend them or else risk losing the game outright. The new nydus is exactly the same.

This rush is in some ways more powerful than the old invincible nydus rush in that the unload speed is so fast that the zerg is all but guaranteed to get multiple queens out and get a transfuse done while the zerglings exit fast enough to overwhelm the protoss, and since the exits are so cheap, zerg can throw down a second one far from the first and protoss basically can't defend both at once. The only way to hold it comfortably is to rush higher damage units like zealots, immortals, void rays, etc. and have perfect vision of your base at all times. This puts protoss behind if zerg does literally anything else than a nydus rush. If they scout protoss is preparing to defend nydus, they can just drone and then be massively ahead because protoss is spending all their gas to defend something that isn't going to happen.

The balance team's idea for using nydus in the mid and late game is cool, and quite like BW, but the changes they made to nydus made it slightly better for that intent, but were a big buff to rushes, which is exactly what they said they wanted to get away from. To fix this issue all they literally need to do is either make the heads take longer to pop so there is a better chance of the defender killing them, or make the nydus building itself take a bit longer to build. Defending this rush even 30 seconds later would be much more reasonable for the protoss player since they could have the units in time and not scouting it would be on them. But as it is right now, this rush hits when protoss has at most 2-3 gateway units and maybe an oracle and mass zerglings and a few queens can kill that small of an army with little trouble.

Cyro

United Kingdom20326 Posts

March 09 2019 19:55 GMT

#183

My ZvP MMR is higher than PvZ despite playing protoss 10x more because of this opening - so many ways that P can play amount to a straight up build order loss but a tailored counter only gives each side a chance to win while putting P behind against some other plays.

It's so early in the game that a lot of scouting can't yet come into play, a common theme in ridiculous coinflip/all-in openings over the years.

The nydus buffs were also specifically focused on making it a nearly unstoppable force in the extremely early game which seems bizarre to me; changes like giving it a lot of armor before it comes out of the ground. That's far more relevant for building a nydus in somebodies face at 3:50 - so that they can't stop it despite having most of their units and a worker surround hitting the underground worm - than it is for any kind of midgame nydus play. Load/unload speed is good.

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