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On February 14 2019 08:54 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Time out Nony, We haven't seen much of anything in GSL yet. We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one. Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from. Don't get me wrong, I don't think TvP is as bad at the moment as lot of people think it is, but I'd wait until at LEAST the Ro32 is over before I start making any arguments based around it. Also regarding Show nested quote +If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually. I don't think ANY Terran likes the idea that you have to all in to win vs Protoss, the argument is that late game TvP feels so unwinnable right now that it feels like you're forced to end the game early or else face an impossibly hard match up later on. I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game. Blizzard TRIED to buff the BCs and the Thor to help with this issue but they turned around and buffed the shit out of Tempests which laugh at either of those units. why Blizz seems to think that Thors are EVER going to be an effective weapon vs something like the Tempest is beyond me.
Why is the general consensus and/or why does it always have to come down to nerfing the side that is overperforming? Why not buff the other sides instead? What is the motivation?
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Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from.
Most people would agree here. It's too early to tell how balanced the matchup is.
However, the problems are: 1. Terrans misrepresenting a stagnant meta as unfavorable balance, and openly campaigning for Protoss nerfs. 2. Blizzard encouraging this whining campaign by rewarding it with a random Protoss nerf.
This is a negligible change, but it reaffirms how susceptible Blizzard is to a small subset of the community pressuring them for changes, whilst they neglect the deeper or more fundamental issues in the matchup.
I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game.
I wouldn't say it's as simple as that. I've played for a while, and I think one of the biggest issues has been giving Terran positional units like Tanks, Liberators and Widow Mines that work well with Bio. I totally understand the desire for mech play, but every time mech units get buffed, Terran players will just add them in support and enhance bio play.
So now you have a high DPS, highly mobile but fragile army (bio) which can move across the map with positional units and siege a Protoss base until it cracks because you can't go near the Terran army without getting smashed, and you can't go more mobile and base trade either.
I'm at 30% in PvT, and can't figure the matchup out. Maybe I'm too passive and macro focused. And I'm sure that there are Terrans who feel the same from their end.
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On February 14 2019 10:07 narbsncharbs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 08:54 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Time out Nony, We haven't seen much of anything in GSL yet. We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one. Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from. Don't get me wrong, I don't think TvP is as bad at the moment as lot of people think it is, but I'd wait until at LEAST the Ro32 is over before I start making any arguments based around it. Also regarding If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually. I don't think ANY Terran likes the idea that you have to all in to win vs Protoss, the argument is that late game TvP feels so unwinnable right now that it feels like you're forced to end the game early or else face an impossibly hard match up later on. I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game. Blizzard TRIED to buff the BCs and the Thor to help with this issue but they turned around and buffed the shit out of Tempests which laugh at either of those units. why Blizz seems to think that Thors are EVER going to be an effective weapon vs something like the Tempest is beyond me. Why is the general consensus and/or why does it always have to come down to nerfing the side that is overperforming? Why not buff the other sides instead? What is the motivation?
The motivation is simply to keep power creep, which could affect other matchups in a bad way in check, I would say.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
Power creep is kept in check with equal part buffs and nerfs. Creeping in the other direction with overnerfs is just as much of a problem although not as common
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On February 14 2019 10:07 narbsncharbs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 08:54 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Time out Nony, We haven't seen much of anything in GSL yet. We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one. Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from. Don't get me wrong, I don't think TvP is as bad at the moment as lot of people think it is, but I'd wait until at LEAST the Ro32 is over before I start making any arguments based around it. Also regarding If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually. I don't think ANY Terran likes the idea that you have to all in to win vs Protoss, the argument is that late game TvP feels so unwinnable right now that it feels like you're forced to end the game early or else face an impossibly hard match up later on. I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game. Blizzard TRIED to buff the BCs and the Thor to help with this issue but they turned around and buffed the shit out of Tempests which laugh at either of those units. why Blizz seems to think that Thors are EVER going to be an effective weapon vs something like the Tempest is beyond me. Why is the general consensus and/or why does it always have to come down to nerfing the side that is overperforming? Why not buff the other sides instead? What is the motivation?
Well IMO its because the Tempest was buffed recently and it is one of the main reasons why TvP late game feels even worse than before and it's always been a match up that's tough for Terran late game, and honestly I'm ok with it being tough just not THIS tough.
Also, because the BC and Thor are by design just bad units vs Protoss thanks to units like the Tempest and Immortal and the Ghost is already pretty damn powerful so what would you buff in the late game to make Terran better? Vikings? That would be a buff that would impact early and midgames. Ravens? Ravens are already stupid powerful in TvT and we've seen what happens when Ravens are strong and massable it becomes a whole other headache. Liberators? Again same problem with Vikings.
There was once upon a time in WoL where TvP late game felt SORT OF fair and balanced because everything came down to Ghosts vs High Templar. Tempests wreck that balance because they outrange anything Terran has and Storm is extremely punishing if you commit to an attack.
That is why the Tempest is in my opinion the biggest problem in the late game. Protoss wasn't ever given the Tempest to fight Terran, it was given to them to combat Broodlords and ever since the late game vs Protoss has been a major issue. So of course when they get buffed so they can fucking kite VIKINGS now, of course it's gonna be a big problem.
This is why Terrans just don't want to play late game vs Protoss. It's always been a headache, but the buffed Tempest just makes it ridiculous.
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On February 14 2019 11:55 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 10:07 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 14 2019 08:54 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Time out Nony, We haven't seen much of anything in GSL yet. We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one. Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from. Don't get me wrong, I don't think TvP is as bad at the moment as lot of people think it is, but I'd wait until at LEAST the Ro32 is over before I start making any arguments based around it. Also regarding If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually. I don't think ANY Terran likes the idea that you have to all in to win vs Protoss, the argument is that late game TvP feels so unwinnable right now that it feels like you're forced to end the game early or else face an impossibly hard match up later on. I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game. Blizzard TRIED to buff the BCs and the Thor to help with this issue but they turned around and buffed the shit out of Tempests which laugh at either of those units. why Blizz seems to think that Thors are EVER going to be an effective weapon vs something like the Tempest is beyond me. Why is the general consensus and/or why does it always have to come down to nerfing the side that is overperforming? Why not buff the other sides instead? What is the motivation? Well IMO its because the Tempest was buffed recently and it is one of the main reasons why TvP late game feels even worse than before and it's always been a match up that's tough for Terran late game, and honestly I'm ok with it being tough just not THIS tough. Also, because the BC and Thor are by design just bad units vs Protoss thanks to units like the Tempest and Immortal and the Ghost is already pretty damn powerful so what would you buff in the late game to make Terran better? Vikings? That would be a buff that would impact early and midgames. Ravens? Ravens are already stupid powerful in TvT and we've seen what happens when Ravens are strong and massable it becomes a whole other headache. Liberators? Again same problem with Vikings. There was once upon a time in WoL where TvP late game felt SORT OF fair and balanced because everything came down to Ghosts vs High Templar. Tempests wreck that balance because they outrange anything Terran has and Storm is extremely punishing if you commit to an attack. That is why the Tempest is in my opinion the biggest problem in the late game. Protoss wasn't ever given the Tempest to fight Terran, it was given to them to combat Broodlords and ever since the late game vs Protoss has been a major issue. So of course when they get buffed so they can fucking kite VIKINGS now, of course it's gonna be a big problem. This is why Terrans just don't want to play late game vs Protoss. It's always been a headache, but the buffed Tempest just makes it ridiculous.
The reason why TvP sucks is because our only unit comp we are allowed to use is hardcountered by 3 different units. Templars(storms), Colossus and disruptors.
That's why no one wants to play it.
Yet terran has another whole half of the techtree(or 2/3 of a tech tree if we count air) that we can't use because of expensive gas costs and slow unit build times. It's impossible to trade armies with mech late game.
Can we get adjustments made so that we aren't pigeonholed into getting hardcountered every game with bio? That'd be great.
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On February 14 2019 12:02 narbsncharbs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 11:55 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 14 2019 10:07 narbsncharbs wrote:On February 14 2019 08:54 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Time out Nony, We haven't seen much of anything in GSL yet. We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one. Hold on before we start with the "Terran is winning in GSL" stuff, we have barely seen anything yet and of the results we have seen I can very easily argue are not enough to draw any conclusions from. Don't get me wrong, I don't think TvP is as bad at the moment as lot of people think it is, but I'd wait until at LEAST the Ro32 is over before I start making any arguments based around it. Also regarding If balance is achieved by the "tactical wheel" or "rock paper scissors" and blind counters, then everyone is going to be miserable.
A situation needs to be figured out that involves scouting and decision-making. Right now the work toward that is just being postponed. It will have to be done eventually. I don't think ANY Terran likes the idea that you have to all in to win vs Protoss, the argument is that late game TvP feels so unwinnable right now that it feels like you're forced to end the game early or else face an impossibly hard match up later on. I think any Terran would gladly trade a nerf to proxy bullshit and SCV pulls if it means that Protoss gets hit with the nerfbat in the late game. Blizzard TRIED to buff the BCs and the Thor to help with this issue but they turned around and buffed the shit out of Tempests which laugh at either of those units. why Blizz seems to think that Thors are EVER going to be an effective weapon vs something like the Tempest is beyond me. Why is the general consensus and/or why does it always have to come down to nerfing the side that is overperforming? Why not buff the other sides instead? What is the motivation? Well IMO its because the Tempest was buffed recently and it is one of the main reasons why TvP late game feels even worse than before and it's always been a match up that's tough for Terran late game, and honestly I'm ok with it being tough just not THIS tough. Also, because the BC and Thor are by design just bad units vs Protoss thanks to units like the Tempest and Immortal and the Ghost is already pretty damn powerful so what would you buff in the late game to make Terran better? Vikings? That would be a buff that would impact early and midgames. Ravens? Ravens are already stupid powerful in TvT and we've seen what happens when Ravens are strong and massable it becomes a whole other headache. Liberators? Again same problem with Vikings. There was once upon a time in WoL where TvP late game felt SORT OF fair and balanced because everything came down to Ghosts vs High Templar. Tempests wreck that balance because they outrange anything Terran has and Storm is extremely punishing if you commit to an attack. That is why the Tempest is in my opinion the biggest problem in the late game. Protoss wasn't ever given the Tempest to fight Terran, it was given to them to combat Broodlords and ever since the late game vs Protoss has been a major issue. So of course when they get buffed so they can fucking kite VIKINGS now, of course it's gonna be a big problem. This is why Terrans just don't want to play late game vs Protoss. It's always been a headache, but the buffed Tempest just makes it ridiculous. The reason why TvP sucks is because our only unit comp we are allowed to use is hardcountered by 3 different units. Templars(storms), Colossus and disruptors. That's why no one wants to play it. Yet terran has another whole half of the techtree(or 2/3 of a tech tree if we count air) that we can't use because of expensive gas costs and slow unit build times. It's impossible to trade armies with mech late game. Can we get adjustments made so that we aren't pigeonholed into getting hardcountered every game with bio? That'd be great.
I mean, we actually see Siege Tanks vs Protoss now which is something we never used to see back in the day outside of the 1-1-1 meta.
We're actually seeing Banshees, Widow Mines, Ravens, and Liberators in the match up and even some gimmick unit comps like Widow Mine/Battlecruiser (Supernova used to do this a lot) can work at everything but the highest level.
The match up has gotten a LOT better in terms of Terran tech tree representation than it used to be. I think the problem is very specific to the late game.
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On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game?
Of the 10 qualified players in GSL so far, 5 of them are Protoss. In WCS EU, there are only 2 Terran out of 16 players left. And you want to buff Protoss more? You got to be kidding me.
Blizzard is doing the right thing by nerfing Protoss. Protoss is just too OP right now.
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On February 14 2019 11:09 Cyro wrote:
Power creep is kept in check with equal part buffs and nerfs. Creeping in the other direction with overnerfs is just as much of a problem although not as common
So nerfing things that are too strong is a more common approach than buffing other stuff in return (and by quite a big margin, I'd say), which makes your comment kind of obsolete.
Edit: Sorry, shouldn't have said that, it's pretty late, should go to bed.
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I wonder if the balance team was fired. I dont see why they wouldnt have been...
If this was final SC2 balance state, would we all be happy?
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On February 14 2019 18:05 Snakestyle11 wrote:
I wonder if the balance team was fired. I dont see why they wouldnt have been...
If this was final SC2 balance state, would we all be happy?
I would be happy with the balance, for me it is the best balanced assymetric game of all time. At least in November each year when Blizzcon happens.
The minor issues that still persist (TvP late game, underused units/upgrades, streategy diversity...) only affect top pro players and seem to be more design issues than balance issues. And they could probably be solved mid-term by map makers and the evolution of the meta if there would be no balance team any more.
I am happy that they continue to make design changes at the end of each year though, to try to address those issues. Even at the cost of a (perceived?) imbalance at the beginning of the year.
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On February 14 2019 12:18 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Of the 10 qualified players in GSL so far, 5 of them are Protoss. In WCS EU, there are only 2 Terran out of 16 players left. And you want to buff Protoss more? You got to be kidding me. Blizzard is doing the right thing by nerfing Protoss. Protoss is just too OP right now.
These statistics mean nothing. Like who wins is solely dependent on balance? On numbers like these you need to factor in skills.
If Blizzard would be nerfing each race based on a few wins or losses in a tournament we will get nowhere.
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On February 14 2019 12:18 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Of the 10 qualified players in GSL so far, 5 of them are Protoss. In WCS EU, there are only 2 Terran out of 16 players left. And you want to buff Protoss more? You got to be kidding me. Blizzard is doing the right thing by nerfing Protoss. Protoss is just too OP right now.
How many top EU Terrans are there who should have advanced to the RO16?
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On February 14 2019 23:04 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 12:18 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Of the 10 qualified players in GSL so far, 5 of them are Protoss. In WCS EU, there are only 2 Terran out of 16 players left. And you want to buff Protoss more? You got to be kidding me. Blizzard is doing the right thing by nerfing Protoss. Protoss is just too OP right now. How many top EU Terrans are there who should have advanced to the RO16?
People in here are comfortable using GSL results to justify Terran being fine in TvP, I don't see why similar logic couldn't be used in EU to determine that they're not doing fine. 2/16 is insanely bad while people like GungFuBanda breeze on through. I don't even remember a 3rd coming particularly close, and HM was on the brink of elimination. All of this is auxiliary to the larger problem of Terrans going all-in every game, anyway.
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United Kingdom20323 Posts
I don't see why similar logic couldn't be used in EU to determine that they're not doing fine.
Winrates are a much better indication of balance than participation is
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In WCS EU Winter Protoss slightly overperformed with a 7/12(Most notably Gungfubanda advancing over Nerchio) ro16 conversion whereas the 2/7 obtained by Terran was somehow imaginable after the groups were drawn(Soul or Marinelord could advance but not really a big letdown); I want to underline that Zerg's 6/13 is actually kind of a bad considering EU is the Overmind as everyone knows.
In Code S, Protoss actually seemed very strong during qualifiers and performed better than expected(13 compared to the 8 Terran); ro32 tells us an entirely different story: Protoss are currently 5/12 and Terran 5/6 with the only shocking result in Cure qualifying in Stats' place but a 7-2 in bo3 victories and 14-6 in map score for T over P.
Meanwhile, Zerg are doing extremely bad going 2/8 with the notable elimination of Solar.
Overall, Protoss are doing quite well but they aren't dominating as someone here implies they are while historical racial trends are respected with Terran doing better in Korea and Zerg doing better in EU; however, Terran aren't especially underperforming while Zerg kind of are.
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On February 14 2019 22:36 Uni1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 12:18 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Of the 10 qualified players in GSL so far, 5 of them are Protoss. In WCS EU, there are only 2 Terran out of 16 players left. And you want to buff Protoss more? You got to be kidding me. Blizzard is doing the right thing by nerfing Protoss. Protoss is just too OP right now. These statistics mean nothing. Like who wins is solely dependent on balance? On numbers like these you need to factor in skills. If Blizzard would be nerfing each race based on a few wins or losses in a tournament we will get nowhere.
The problem is that people are using overall w/l statistics from an event(for example, any time someone says "but in gsl") as the end all be all for deciding whether one race is balanced or not but in reality numbers never paint the entire picture. For example, a toss could forget to wall off 30 times, zerglings flood in 30 times and win the game. Does that mean toss is underpowered or zerg is over powered? No, because the toss wasn't playing optimally. How can we use games to judge the strength of a race, if the races weren't played to their fullest potential in said games? We can't. This is why blindly looking at total w/l ratios and using it to decide balance is a VERY BAD IDEA. You literally have to analyze every game.
Balance does not come down to solely Ws and Ls.
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On February 14 2019 23:34 TrashEconomy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2019 23:04 Zetter wrote:On February 14 2019 12:18 xelnaga_empire wrote:On February 14 2019 02:57 NonY wrote:
terran is winning tvp in GSL. early all-ins are strong and isn't blink cost reduction exactly the kind of thing to help vs all-ins? so that it'd be easier for protoss to have another tool or threat early on in the game. so why is blink cost increasing instead? i dont get it
shouldn't protoss get a buff to help deal with the all-ins or terran get a nerf to their all-in and blizzard should go back to the drawing board on changes to make terran better at mid game and late game? Of the 10 qualified players in GSL so far, 5 of them are Protoss. In WCS EU, there are only 2 Terran out of 16 players left. And you want to buff Protoss more? You got to be kidding me. Blizzard is doing the right thing by nerfing Protoss. Protoss is just too OP right now. How many top EU Terrans are there who should have advanced to the RO16? People in here are comfortable using GSL results to justify Terran being fine in TvP, I don't see why similar logic couldn't be used in EU to determine that they're not doing fine. 2/16 is insanely bad while people like GungFuBanda breeze on through. I don't even remember a 3rd coming particularly close, and HM was on the brink of elimination. All of this is auxiliary to the larger problem of Terrans going all-in every game, anyway.
Yup, this is true. HeroMarine was almost eliminated. If HeroMarine was eliminated, that would have been 1 Terran out of 16 players in WCS EU.
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8751 Posts
We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one.
I don't agree with this kind of analysis. That's all that matter is the win-loss when the matchup is so volatile and nobody understands it atm. I would agree that the win-loss is not much to go off of but it's all we've got. You agree with me that the win-loss is not much to go off of, but you do it from the angle that you understand the matchup so well that you know the full story behind each and every pvt that has been played so you're giving yourself the authority to say which games are truly reflective of the matchup and which are not. You are out of your mind if you think you understand it that well.
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On February 15 2019 01:14 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +We saw Maru 4-0 his group, because he's Maru, and we saw Stats have a really bad day. Outside of that the only TvPs we've seen have been Keen getting blasted out of his group, Gumiho and Cure showing that MC doesn't have a clue when it comes to PvT at the moment and Bunny vs Parting which I haven't seen but I wasn't expecting much out of so I'll give you that one. I don't agree with this kind of analysis. That's all that matter is the win-loss when the matchup is so volatile and nobody understands it atm. I would agree that the win-loss is not much to go off of but it's all we've got. You agree with me that the win-loss is not much to go off of, but you do it from the angle that you understand the matchup so well that you know the full story behind each and every pvt that has been played so you're giving yourself the authority to say which games are truly reflective of the matchup and which are not. You are out of your mind if you think you understand it that well.
Win loss is not all we have, that is not correct. We can actually sift through the games manually from the start and remove corrupt data that does not fit the parameter of "were both players playing their races optimally". Only data that contains optimal gameplay should be used in analysis when it comes to deciding whether or not a race is balanced or not. Looking at the surface(aka solely at w/l results) does not provide an accurate analysis as i've already shown earlier in this thread that your method of analysis leads to incorrect and inaccurate assumptions. Your approach flawed and we cannot use that approach if we want real and accurate balance analysis.
On another note, Playerskill is not an indicator of whether or not a race is balanced. Playerskill is mechanics(micro/macro/multitasking) and decision making. Playerskill has zero interconnectedness with how strong a unit/ability/race is so i believe that zero balance decisions should ever be based off of any skill level at all. Real and accurate power levels are revealed when the unit/ability/race is used/played optimally regardless of playerskill, optimal is optimal.
I'm telling you guys, people have been using the wrong approach which is why balance is suffering, we've never been able to reveal the true strength because we've been making decisions based off flawed analysis.
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EPT
