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On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 22:45 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 22:27 Hvvacha wrote:On November 26 2018 21:20 kajtarp wrote:On November 26 2018 21:12 ParksonVN wrote:
It's a fact that no matter how many titles Serral gets from now on, he will never surpass MVP, Inno, Life, Zest or even sOs in the SC2 all time ranking. Why? Becoz the Korean scene, aka the main scene is dead, this era is by far not the highest skilled one because i don't see that in the games. When you are as talented and hard-working and live with as many advantages as Serral, it's not hard to continue the dominance compared to the top Korean. At least Serral can farm 4 ez-money WCS a year while the rest of the best players have to compete for just 3 GSLs and a super tournament.
SC2 can get better i believe, but in "entertainment wise", not "skill wise" or "esport wise" when the main scene is that restricted (not all Blizzard's fault though). I disagree. Yes, the level of GSL RO32 is not really strong anymore. I must admit, i tend to skip it most of the time. But the top of the scene remained more or less from the top of HotS (most GSL,Blizzcon and SSL winners from the end) with some new stars emerging like TY, Stats and Rogue. GSL RO16 is still very very strong. We lost Life due to his matchfixing, and we lost Rain to Brood War, Taeja coming back. Other than that, who did we lose who was GSL/SSL/Blizzcon winning caliber in 2015? If we take a look at the current GSL Ro16's it's mostly stacked with mutliple GSL/SS/Blizzcon winners. you forgot that all these gsl/ssl/blizzcon winners are far past their prime and became older, less motivated etc etc. and serral is younger than everybody + maru. Older for sure, FAR past their prime not that true, less motivated i doubt since money prizes have skyrocketed. In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
What about the burn out ?
I think they were practicing much harder in teamhouse in the bw days. And you can't train like that hard and be efficient for age, it's okay when you are younger. I don't think the same happened in sc2
Look at CN WC3 scene .
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On November 27 2018 01:17 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:On November 26 2018 22:45 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 22:27 Hvvacha wrote:On November 26 2018 21:20 kajtarp wrote:On November 26 2018 21:12 ParksonVN wrote:
It's a fact that no matter how many titles Serral gets from now on, he will never surpass MVP, Inno, Life, Zest or even sOs in the SC2 all time ranking. Why? Becoz the Korean scene, aka the main scene is dead, this era is by far not the highest skilled one because i don't see that in the games. When you are as talented and hard-working and live with as many advantages as Serral, it's not hard to continue the dominance compared to the top Korean. At least Serral can farm 4 ez-money WCS a year while the rest of the best players have to compete for just 3 GSLs and a super tournament.
SC2 can get better i believe, but in "entertainment wise", not "skill wise" or "esport wise" when the main scene is that restricted (not all Blizzard's fault though). I disagree. Yes, the level of GSL RO32 is not really strong anymore. I must admit, i tend to skip it most of the time. But the top of the scene remained more or less from the top of HotS (most GSL,Blizzcon and SSL winners from the end) with some new stars emerging like TY, Stats and Rogue. GSL RO16 is still very very strong. We lost Life due to his matchfixing, and we lost Rain to Brood War, Taeja coming back. Other than that, who did we lose who was GSL/SSL/Blizzcon winning caliber in 2015? If we take a look at the current GSL Ro16's it's mostly stacked with mutliple GSL/SS/Blizzcon winners. you forgot that all these gsl/ssl/blizzcon winners are far past their prime and became older, less motivated etc etc. and serral is younger than everybody + maru. Older for sure, FAR past their prime not that true, less motivated i doubt since money prizes have skyrocketed. In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. What about the burn out ? I think they were practicing much harder in teamhouse in the bw days. And you can't train like that hard and be efficient for age, it's okay when you are younger. I don't think the same happened in sc2 Look at CN WC3 scene .
That's definitely an argument and the difference between old and young players might not seem as big as those stats show.
However even looking at the current koreans play - some players have completely changed the way they play, like Inno who a few years ago just pummeled everyone with his parade pushes has now a much more methodical approach to the game or Zest who once was the epitome of standard macro play now playing more similar to herO with sharp timings.
I think this has something to do with them compensating for their hands getting slower.
Though on the other hand we have Stats who reached his peak at the age where other players decline... maybe he's just an anomaly.
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France12915 Posts
Yeah I don't think it's a coincidence the players doing really well right now are almost all in their 20-21, they are at their peak while others start to struggle. The fact that LotV is so heavy on multitask doesn't help either.
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On November 26 2018 15:53 Dave4 wrote:The guy is just insane. Hasn't lost an offline bo3 since March. Your thoughts? Poll: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?) (219) 56% Best overall player of 2018 (107) 27% Best foreigner of 2018 (39) 10% GOAT (21) 5% Best Zerg of 2018 (8) 2% 394 total votes Your vote: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018 (Vote): Best foreigner of 2018
(Vote): Best Zerg of 2018
(Vote): Best overall player of 2018
(Vote): Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?)
(Vote): GOAT
Im not so sure now tbh. Still obviously super impressive to maintain his lan streak but the fact that taeja? and innovation both pushed him to his limits says to me that maru and ty are going to be very tough for him..as normal he looked invincible zvz and zvp but clearly most vulnerable zvt..to which he avoided playing a single match at blizzcon.
Tournament also curbs the raving that the Kr scene is weak..10 koreans invited (none of which are the best of their respective races) and 2nd through 6th to koreans lol. Serral is a madman holding up the foreign scene he needs some help people!
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On November 27 2018 01:17 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:On November 26 2018 22:45 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 22:27 Hvvacha wrote:On November 26 2018 21:20 kajtarp wrote:On November 26 2018 21:12 ParksonVN wrote:
It's a fact that no matter how many titles Serral gets from now on, he will never surpass MVP, Inno, Life, Zest or even sOs in the SC2 all time ranking. Why? Becoz the Korean scene, aka the main scene is dead, this era is by far not the highest skilled one because i don't see that in the games. When you are as talented and hard-working and live with as many advantages as Serral, it's not hard to continue the dominance compared to the top Korean. At least Serral can farm 4 ez-money WCS a year while the rest of the best players have to compete for just 3 GSLs and a super tournament.
SC2 can get better i believe, but in "entertainment wise", not "skill wise" or "esport wise" when the main scene is that restricted (not all Blizzard's fault though). I disagree. Yes, the level of GSL RO32 is not really strong anymore. I must admit, i tend to skip it most of the time. But the top of the scene remained more or less from the top of HotS (most GSL,Blizzcon and SSL winners from the end) with some new stars emerging like TY, Stats and Rogue. GSL RO16 is still very very strong. We lost Life due to his matchfixing, and we lost Rain to Brood War, Taeja coming back. Other than that, who did we lose who was GSL/SSL/Blizzcon winning caliber in 2015? If we take a look at the current GSL Ro16's it's mostly stacked with mutliple GSL/SS/Blizzcon winners. you forgot that all these gsl/ssl/blizzcon winners are far past their prime and became older, less motivated etc etc. and serral is younger than everybody + maru. Older for sure, FAR past their prime not that true, less motivated i doubt since money prizes have skyrocketed. In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. What about the burn out ? I think they were practicing much harder in teamhouse in the bw days. And you can't train like that hard and be efficient for age, it's okay when you are younger. I don't think the same happened in sc2 Look at CN WC3 scene .
Current WC3 scene is indeed an anomaly even if the game rewards different mechanics; there are so many ex pros in their thirties doing well(120 is the only real new big thing). It kind of seems like Sc2 beta/start of WoL, i think things will change once Reforged is launched.
Age is generally a factor but some find ways to overcome it; being younger is like having more apm/eapm: it helps but it doesn't necessarily decide if you win or not.
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On November 27 2018 01:29 Poopi wrote:
Yeah I don't think it's a coincidence the players doing really well right now are almost all in their 20-21, they are at their peak while others start to struggle. The fact that LotV is so heavy on multitask doesn't help either.
This year !
Byun wasn't 20 in 2016, Polt wasn't 20 in 2016, TY wasn't 20 at the start of lotv, Rogue and soO weren't 20 last year 
Stats is peaking because he is enjoying the game I guess, while INno says that he doesn't try hard. Work ethic > age.
Your brain and hands doesn't freeze at 25, you may want to see others thing than playing a game 5h a day though.
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On November 27 2018 01:41 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 15:53 Dave4 wrote:The guy is just insane. Hasn't lost an offline bo3 since March. Your thoughts? Poll: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?) (219) 56% Best overall player of 2018 (107) 27% Best foreigner of 2018 (39) 10% GOAT (21) 5% Best Zerg of 2018 (8) 2% 394 total votes Your vote: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018 (Vote): Best foreigner of 2018
(Vote): Best Zerg of 2018
(Vote): Best overall player of 2018
(Vote): Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?)
(Vote): GOAT
Im not so sure now tbh. Still obviously super impressive to maintain his lan streak but the fact that taeja? and innovation both pushed him to his limits says to me that maru and ty are going to be very tough for him..as normal he looked invinvible zvz and zvp but clearly most vulnerable zvt..to which he avoided playing a single match at blizzcon.
He didn't dodge Terrans at BlizzCon, they just weren't matched against him.
This patch introduced nerfs for Zerg and seems favourable to Terran, at least in this early stage(look at the other Zergs placements) and you have to add Serral's worst matchup is ZvT probably due to lack of top level practice.
If Maru was playing this HSC he would have won it i guess but Serral will train and adapt, hopefully going to Korea.
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France12915 Posts
On November 27 2018 01:41 DieuCure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 01:29 Poopi wrote:
Yeah I don't think it's a coincidence the players doing really well right now are almost all in their 20-21, they are at their peak while others start to struggle. The fact that LotV is so heavy on multitask doesn't help either. This year ! Byun wasn't 20 in 2016, Polt wasn't 20 in 2016, TY wasn't 20 at the start of lotv, Rogue and soO weren't 20 last year Stats is peaking because he is enjoying the game I guess, while INno says that he doesn't try hard. Work ethic > age. Your brain and hands doesn't freeze at 25, you may want to see others thing than playing a game 5h a day though.
I'm talking about foreign scene, should have been clear. In Korea since there is no new blood there is not enough young players to overtake the old guard and former kespa pros.
But in the foreign scene there is a flood of 20-22 players
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On November 27 2018 01:45 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 01:41 DomeGetta wrote:On November 26 2018 15:53 Dave4 wrote:The guy is just insane. Hasn't lost an offline bo3 since March. Your thoughts? Poll: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?) (219) 56% Best overall player of 2018 (107) 27% Best foreigner of 2018 (39) 10% GOAT (21) 5% Best Zerg of 2018 (8) 2% 394 total votes Your vote: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018 (Vote): Best foreigner of 2018
(Vote): Best Zerg of 2018
(Vote): Best overall player of 2018
(Vote): Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?)
(Vote): GOAT
Im not so sure now tbh. Still obviously super impressive to maintain his lan streak but the fact that taeja? and innovation both pushed him to his limits says to me that maru and ty are going to be very tough for him..as normal he looked invinvible zvz and zvp but clearly most vulnerable zvt..to which he avoided playing a single match at blizzcon. He didn't dodge Terrans at BlizzCon, they just weren't matched against him. This patch introduced nerfs for Zerg and seems favourable to Terran, at least in this early stage(look at the other Zergs placements) and you have to add Serral's worst matchup is ZvT probably due to lack of top level practice. If Maru was playing this HSC he would have won it i guess but Serral will train and adapt, hopefully going to Korea.
Ya totally agree. Wasnt implying he dodged anyone dudes confidence is through the roof and well earned. Im just a bit nervous for his zvt as you said going up against the likes of uthermal and his 2 base BC isnt really going to help prep him. Would be incredible if he went to Kr but not looking like he wants to and u have to respect his reasoning.
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On November 27 2018 01:49 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 01:45 Xain0n wrote:On November 27 2018 01:41 DomeGetta wrote:On November 26 2018 15:53 Dave4 wrote:The guy is just insane. Hasn't lost an offline bo3 since March. Your thoughts? Poll: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?) (219) 56% Best overall player of 2018 (107) 27% Best foreigner of 2018 (39) 10% GOAT (21) 5% Best Zerg of 2018 (8) 2% 394 total votes Your vote: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018 (Vote): Best foreigner of 2018
(Vote): Best Zerg of 2018
(Vote): Best overall player of 2018
(Vote): Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?)
(Vote): GOAT
Im not so sure now tbh. Still obviously super impressive to maintain his lan streak but the fact that taeja? and innovation both pushed him to his limits says to me that maru and ty are going to be very tough for him..as normal he looked invinvible zvz and zvp but clearly most vulnerable zvt..to which he avoided playing a single match at blizzcon. He didn't dodge Terrans at BlizzCon, they just weren't matched against him. This patch introduced nerfs for Zerg and seems favourable to Terran, at least in this early stage(look at the other Zergs placements) and you have to add Serral's worst matchup is ZvT probably due to lack of top level practice. If Maru was playing this HSC he would have won it i guess but Serral will train and adapt, hopefully going to Korea. Ya totally agree. Wasnt implying he dodged anyone dudes confidence is through the roof and well earned. Im just a bit nervous for his zvt as you said going up against the likes of uthermal and his 2 base BC isnt really going to help prep him. Would be incredible if he went to Kr but not looking like he wants to and u have to respect his reasoning.
Of course he doesn't have to go to Korea and if he chooses not to we'll have to respect his decisions; however, he actually didn't exclude he'd go there in 2019 to train and possibly to play in GSL.
Before this patch he actually had much more to lose since he looked totally unshakable but with ZvT(and maybe ZvP) being harder it becomes even logical to go to Korea soon to improve; I was actually very worried as well after seeing Serral's games against Taeja, i feared Bunny could beat him in the winner's bracket final.
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On November 26 2018 11:50 Xain0n wrote:
The average level of the players involved was very high, this one was better than majority of the HSC.
Are XIX and XX going to take place in Las Vegas?
I think just HSC 20 in Vegas...
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Definitely the best foreign GOAT, arguably now a bonjwa.
I'm moving towards the foreign hype train; the level of play was very high from all involved, particularly said foreigners.
Great event, from what I saw. Good job all involved in its production.
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If he fails at the most competitive tournament of the year aka IEM Katowice
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If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone?
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What's interesting about this tournament was how quickly Serral adapted to Terran, I'd argue it was only 4-3 because of some bad luck on BO orders, and bad micro as Serral says  .
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Germany622 Posts
On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone?
It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL.
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On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL.
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S!
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On November 27 2018 00:25 ubikz wrote:
Who where bonjwa's during bw? Pure curiosity.
BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, sAviOr and Flash
 Bonjwa
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Flash was above the Bonjwa status, even a legendary player like JD called him GOD
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EPT
