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On November 26 2018 18:14 Waxangel wrote:I don't think it's mutually exclusive to say 1) Serral's run of dominance is incredibly impressive, and 2) It's different than if he had achieved such results in a GSL environment. Both can be true at the same time 
such a reasonable thing to say
BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
:D :D :D
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On November 27 2018 10:44 fronkschnonk wrote:
I really don't think that GSL is more top heavy. We have more very good and overall better players in Korea. But we also know that a handful (or two if you will) of foreigners can somewhat compete with them.
It's still to be noted that only Serral was able this year to get past the Ro8 of any tournament where a meaningful amount of Koreans played in.
...past the round of 8, like Neeb did in season 3?
If you are arguing against someone with a strong opinion, I implore you to write nothing that is objectively false. You can write subjective stuff, but when it is objective you should stick with the truth.
On November 27 2018 10:44 fronkschnonk wrote:
GSL vs the World and Blizzcon weren't the hardest tournaments. You may argue that they were as hard as GSL Code S but then Serral still "only" won 2 while Maru won 3. Maru did so in an environment where opponents know him very well and had much time to prepare solely for him.
Maru's period of great performances lasted from March (WESG) to Septembre which is 6 months of unquestionable greatness. Serral's period of evenly great performances lasted from August (GSL vs the World) until now which is 4 months of coequal greatness. I exclude Serral's victories at WCS Austin and Valencia because his competition was not as hard in those tournaments.
The approach of measuring you are using is quite questionable. If someone is getting top score on every test, and then gets an increased difficulty of the tests while still getting top score, I would include the previous tests in my conclusion.
Serral won everything for months before GSL vs the World. He has won everything after GSL vs the World too.
I would like to make a comparison with Maru. Maru aced the difficult test GSL, three times. Maru failed in two easier tests - according to you - GSL vs the World and Global Finals. How come he failed the easy ones? Global Finals was a 0-3 after a week of preparation, no excuse for jetlag and it was against someone that has had a considerably worse year than Maru.
My opinion is that you shouldn't focus on the victories. The victories are the extra fluff, while the games are the bread and butter.
Looking at Maru's games, they are quite impressive, but there is a staleness to most of them. Maru played a few discrete styles, proxy being the most common style. Macro was not preferred, even if the macro was great.
Looking at Serral's games, you have solid macro as a foundation. That is the go-to way of playing for Serral. Serral can be behind in early game and come back in the late game. He has done that over and over again. If Serral gets to the late game, he usually wins.
Maru vs sOs was a total beat down. sOs predicted Maru's moves and won. If Maru had not been so stubborn about his style centric play, he could have played macro and won.
It seems as if Maru is insecure when playing matches that are not prepared far in advance. He's been playing poorly in the group stages of GSL and he's been playing poorly in weekenders. Had he been the best overall, he would have performed better at these types of matches as well.
Maru did great at IEM, which was a pleasant surprise, so that is a plus.
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On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done.
GSL was not as hard as Blizzcon or GSL vs the world because it did not have the best player in the world, Serrel, in it,
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Best Foreigner of All Time
Top 10 Zerg (All Time)
Best Player of 2018
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On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done.
True, Serral wasn't in GSL Code S.... But Maru WAS in Blizzcon and GSL vs the World.... and GUESS WHO WON BOTH?!?
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These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour...
On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done.
GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this?
If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't
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On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote:These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done. GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't
This doesn't make any sense. Serral is good, maybe even the best currently, but even with the diminished scene in Korea, GSL is still by far the hardest tournament. Yes, even harder than Blizzcon, which is why besides Serral only 1 other foreigner made the ro8. What's next, EU is the strongest region because Serral is in it? xD
Also, Maru got wrecked because he's got matched against one of the most intelligent players we've ever had and more importantly, against his teammate of several years who probably knows how he plays inside and out. It was shocking how short people were selling sOs in that match.
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France12906 Posts
On November 27 2018 20:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote:These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done. GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't This doesn't make any sense. Serral is good, maybe even the best currently, but even with the diminished scene in Korea, GSL is still by far the hardest tournament. Yes, even harder than Blizzcon, which is why besides Serral only 1 other foreigner made the ro8. What's next, EU is the strongest region because Serral is in it? xD Also, Maru got wrecked because he's got matched against one of the most intelligent players we've ever had and more importantly, against his teammate of several years who probably knows how he plays inside and out. It was shocking how short people were selling sOs in that match.
Plus let's be honest playing TvP in BlizzCon meta is more volatile than playing ZvP.
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Looking at ro32 every season this year I'm skeptical to call this the hardest tournament.
Hardest tournament was Blizzcon. Why? Because top 8 koreans were there and everybody was taking it very seriously and preparing whole year just for it. WHY? Because it's 280k.
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On November 27 2018 20:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote:These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done. GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't This doesn't make any sense. Serral is good, maybe even the best currently, but even with the diminished scene in Korea, GSL is still by far the hardest tournament. Yes, even harder than Blizzcon, which is why besides Serral only 1 other foreigner made the ro8. What's next, EU is the strongest region because Serral is in it? xD Also, Maru got wrecked because he's got matched against one of the most intelligent players we've ever had and more importantly, against his teammate of several years who probably knows how he plays inside and out. It was shocking how short people were selling sOs in that match.
There is no doubt Code S is harder than WCS, but not as much as you guys are saying considering it a tier 3 tournament.
BlizzCon has the highest money prize, the prestige of being considered official world champion if you win it and this year it had the true top8 koreans+Serral competing in it(whereas some of the current best foreigners were not there); clearly the hardest tournament, better than GSL Code S.
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On November 27 2018 20:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote:These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done. GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't This doesn't make any sense. Serral is good, maybe even the best currently, but even with the diminished scene in Korea, GSL is still by far the hardest tournament. Yes, even harder than Blizzcon, which is why besides Serral only 1 other foreigner made the ro8. What's next, EU is the strongest region because Serral is in it? xD Also, Maru got wrecked because he's got matched against one of the most intelligent players we've ever had and more importantly, against his teammate of several years who probably knows how he plays inside and out. It was shocking how short people were selling sOs in that match.
I didn't say a word about "EU is the strongest region"...
Seems like you don't have arguments and need to make stuff up xD
You admit Serral is the best, yet you still don't see Blizzcon as the harder tournament? I am confused
Serral + top 7 Koreans = hardest tournament = Blizzcon /= GSL
Serral casually dismantled sOs 2:0 and sOs said he did prepare for Serral 
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France12906 Posts
As for BlizzCon vs GSL, it's pretty simple to factually gauge which tournament is harder.
GSL S3 2018 top 16 is a combined 42205 points on aligulac.
BlizzCon is 41902 points on aligulac.
So the top 16 of GSL is slightly harder, but you have to play ro32 as well in order to get there.
Let's keep in mind though that foreigners aligulac ratings would probably be lower if there was no region lock.
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On November 27 2018 21:42 Poopi wrote:
As for BlizzCon vs GSL, it's pretty simple to factually gauge which tournament is harder.
GSL S3 2018 top 16 is a combined 42205 points on aligulac.
BlizzCon is 41902 points on aligulac.
So the top 16 of GSL is slightly harder, but you have to play ro32 as well in order to get there.
Let's keep in mind though that foreigners aligulac ratings would probably be lower if there was no region lock.
Twenty Aligulac points on average isn't really a meaningful difference and you have to take into consideration that's because there were Has, Heromarine and Nerchio(in his 2018 state) in that surely had a lower score than the bottom three ro16 Code Scontenders; besides, GLS S3 ro16 benefitted of Reynor being there.
BlizzCon was more competitive at the very top level as there were all the best koreans+Serral.
In addiction to this, to access BlizzCon you have to win/reach finals or to be consistently well placed all the year in WCS or GSL circuit instead of passing one offline selection and a groupstage as you have to do to get into a single Code S ro16.
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Gsl was a extremely dangerous and volatile tournament because teamhouses were a thing but right now it's just a show about maru and his bitches
No way it's the hardest tournament currently but it's definitely the hardest tournament for Serral to win the final
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Motherfucking Taeja is so good to see again. His Macro looks as ridiculous as ever.
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On November 26 2018 23:12 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 21:44 ParksonVN wrote:On November 26 2018 21:20 kajtarp wrote:On November 26 2018 21:12 ParksonVN wrote:
It's a fact that no matter how many titles Serral gets from now on, he will never surpass MVP, Inno, Life, Zest or even sOs in the SC2 all time ranking. Why? Becoz the Korean scene, aka the main scene is dead, this era is by far not the highest skilled one because i don't see that in the games. When you are as talented and hard-working and live with as many advantages as Serral, it's not hard to continue the dominance compared to the top Korean. At least Serral can farm 4 ez-money WCS a year while the rest of the best players have to compete for just 3 GSLs and a super tournament.
SC2 can get better i believe, but in "entertainment wise", not "skill wise" or "esport wise" when the main scene is that restricted (not all Blizzard's fault though). I disagree. Yes, the level of GSL RO32 is not really strong anymore. I must admit, i tend to skip it most of the time. But the top of the scene remained more or less from the top of HotS (most GSL,Blizzcon and SSL winners from the end) with some new stars emerging like TY, Stats and Rogue. GSL RO16 is still very very strong. We lost Life due to his matchfixing, and we lost Rain to Brood War, Taeja coming back. Other than that, who did we lose who was GSL/SSL/Blizzcon winning caliber in 2015? If we take a look at the current GSL Ro16's it's mostly stacked with mutliple GSL/SS/Blizzcon winners. Inno, Zest, Dark, sOs are still there but not the beasts they were in the past. You can see Inno's micro has a lot of flaws, his macro is still good but the build execution is sloppy. He's also streaming a lot more and doing the same builds/tricks over and over. The same for most of the Koreans, they just don't have enough motivation anymore. The game itself is harder now. Straight up. It's difficult to stay on top of everything because the level of play has elevated and things are FAST in LotV. It is now STANDARD to micro on two fronts just to look like you belong on the same stage, but really 3-front engagements while macroing are the baseline for high-level play at the moment. When players are unable to manage all three fronts, they get called out for "sloppy" play-- in the past, just having three fronts at ALL would have made you a consistently dominant player. Some of the first-person views from Serral's Blizzcon run were absolutely crazy. At one point he was harassing the 4th, microing a drop between the main and the third (without losing any units!), while making main army vs. main army pokes, and he was coming away ahead literally every trade while this was happening. It was insanity. None of these players in their prime were on that level. The game was simpler in the past, with maps featuring more abusable terrain structure, abusable base layout/placement, etc. The game revolved around timing pushes to win not just to do damage and get ahead. Simply executing a really good push with a couple of dropships moving on the edge of the map is no longer meant as a winning move the way it was in earlier eras.
Yeah "It's difficult to stay on top". Sure, because we have one guy winning all the GSLs and one guy winning all the WCSs in a year. Why can't some people just admit that the scene is a whole lot less competitive now? Dont say because Maru and Serral are too good, to me they are no special than MVP, Inno, Life, Zest... when they were at peak, it's just because the majority of Korean pros are not committing that much to the game anymore.
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On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2018 22:45 Xain0n wrote:On November 26 2018 22:27 Hvvacha wrote:On November 26 2018 21:20 kajtarp wrote:On November 26 2018 21:12 ParksonVN wrote:
It's a fact that no matter how many titles Serral gets from now on, he will never surpass MVP, Inno, Life, Zest or even sOs in the SC2 all time ranking. Why? Becoz the Korean scene, aka the main scene is dead, this era is by far not the highest skilled one because i don't see that in the games. When you are as talented and hard-working and live with as many advantages as Serral, it's not hard to continue the dominance compared to the top Korean. At least Serral can farm 4 ez-money WCS a year while the rest of the best players have to compete for just 3 GSLs and a super tournament.
SC2 can get better i believe, but in "entertainment wise", not "skill wise" or "esport wise" when the main scene is that restricted (not all Blizzard's fault though). I disagree. Yes, the level of GSL RO32 is not really strong anymore. I must admit, i tend to skip it most of the time. But the top of the scene remained more or less from the top of HotS (most GSL,Blizzcon and SSL winners from the end) with some new stars emerging like TY, Stats and Rogue. GSL RO16 is still very very strong. We lost Life due to his matchfixing, and we lost Rain to Brood War, Taeja coming back. Other than that, who did we lose who was GSL/SSL/Blizzcon winning caliber in 2015? If we take a look at the current GSL Ro16's it's mostly stacked with mutliple GSL/SS/Blizzcon winners. you forgot that all these gsl/ssl/blizzcon winners are far past their prime and became older, less motivated etc etc. and serral is younger than everybody + maru. Older for sure, FAR past their prime not that true, less motivated i doubt since money prizes have skyrocketed. In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer.
This is what i thought about. Not taking any thing away Maru and TY's success but to me the main reason why they became so good recently is the fact that other Koreans are not trying hard and there are no new blood in the scene.
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On November 27 2018 22:31 seemsgood wrote:
Gsl was a extremely dangerous and volatile tournament because teamhouses were a thing but right now it's just a show about maru and his bitches
No way it's the hardest tournament currently but it's definitely the hardest tournament for Serral to win the final
And Marus bitches still slap around any foreigner not named serral, so yes, it is the hardest tournament.
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On November 27 2018 21:21 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 20:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote:These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done. GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't This doesn't make any sense. Serral is good, maybe even the best currently, but even with the diminished scene in Korea, GSL is still by far the hardest tournament. Yes, even harder than Blizzcon, which is why besides Serral only 1 other foreigner made the ro8. What's next, EU is the strongest region because Serral is in it? xD Also, Maru got wrecked because he's got matched against one of the most intelligent players we've ever had and more importantly, against his teammate of several years who probably knows how he plays inside and out. It was shocking how short people were selling sOs in that match. I didn't say a word about "EU is the strongest region"... Seems like you don't have arguments and need to make stuff up xD You admit Serral is the best, yet you still don't see Blizzcon as the harder tournament? I am confused Serral + top 7 Koreans = hardest tournament = Blizzcon /= GSL Serral casually dismantled sOs 2:0 and sOs said he did prepare for Serral
Well, Serral doesn't have to play himself so from his perspective Blizzcon is definitely not the harder tournament.
When evaluating the difficulty of Serral's Blizzcon run vs Maru's GSL runs the fact that Blizzcon has Serral in it doesn't matter because it doesn't make it more difficult for Serral to win Blizzcon.
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On November 27 2018 23:08 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 21:21 Harris1st wrote:On November 27 2018 20:45 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote:These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done. GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't This doesn't make any sense. Serral is good, maybe even the best currently, but even with the diminished scene in Korea, GSL is still by far the hardest tournament. Yes, even harder than Blizzcon, which is why besides Serral only 1 other foreigner made the ro8. What's next, EU is the strongest region because Serral is in it? xD Also, Maru got wrecked because he's got matched against one of the most intelligent players we've ever had and more importantly, against his teammate of several years who probably knows how he plays inside and out. It was shocking how short people were selling sOs in that match. I didn't say a word about "EU is the strongest region"... Seems like you don't have arguments and need to make stuff up xD You admit Serral is the best, yet you still don't see Blizzcon as the harder tournament? I am confused Serral + top 7 Koreans = hardest tournament = Blizzcon /= GSL Serral casually dismantled sOs 2:0 and sOs said he did prepare for Serral Well, Serral doesn't have to play himself so from his perspective Blizzcon is definitely not the harder tournament. When evaluating the difficulty of Serral's Blizzcon run vs Maru's GSL runs the fact that Blizzcon has Serral in it doesn't matter because it doesn't make it more difficult for Serral to win Blizzcon.
That's true but we were trying to gauge(as objectively as possible) the difficulty of the tournaments themselves, not of the winning runs. Maru's would have been surely harder in GSL S3 if he were to face Serral, as Serral's would have been harder if he were to face Maru at BlizzCon.
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