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On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL.
While GSL is harder than WCS, the GSL field is more top heavy than WCS.
I think the best 32 players in the world a solid 10~ are non-korean.
We've seen korean juggernauts get defeated by non-serral foreigners plenty of times.
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Not a massive Serral fan but it needs to be said. The guy has won almost everything this year, with IEM Katowice and WESG being the only exceptions. To put that in to perspective the lowest placing he's had all year in premier tournaments was a semi finals in IEM. He's won 6 (6!) premier tournaments and Home story Cup this year. He may well have to be considered the best zerg to have played the game and most certainly the best zerg currently competing.
I reckon if he competes in GSL next year and wins OR wins one of IEM Katowice/Blizzcon he has to be considered one of if not the greatest player to have played the game. If he maintains this level of consistency for at least a protracted period next year he almost certainly deserves to be called Bonjwa.
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Yeah and all that has nothing to do with zerg being op with stupid units and macro mecanics , allowing them to do anything they want without commiting, with no risk. No serral is just a genius. Sure.
All protosses in loser's bracket. What a great year we will have again. Thank you blizzard, incredible choices since the beginning. Keep up the good work.
User was warned for this post
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Sure, Zerg so imba, there is even one in the top six of HSC. And of course all the zergs flooding the GSL with their wins(no zerg even in the finals in 2018), poor Protoss was only in two GSL, Blizzcon and GSL vs the world finals. Serral with his unimpressive 40-0 record in offline events since march, dominating Zerg maybe even more than Protoss and Terran, is just some real lucky dude. Obviously no prodigy.
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Ignoring the whining, I think it's quite funny to look at the race/player distribution of the premier tournament finals this year. Terran having relatively little representation isn't exactly new, but the fact that TY was the only one aside Maru to even make an appearance in the finals is still striking. For Zerg there were a few more players with good showings, but obviously Serral was by far the most visible. But Protoss actually occupied the most spots, despite only receiving two of the titles, and also had the most variety in players, though Stats stands out.
Though I would not bother to extrapolate much based on that. The most outstanding thing to note surely is that 10/14 of the finals were taken by just two players.
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Well.. WCS is really Z heavy, but when looking at korean open tournaments, you get a Serral > P/T >Z dynamic, unless you start including patches that didn't include some really heavy zerg nerfs.
I really don't understand the Z "OP" posters, maybe you could argue it was slightly stronger than other races, but you can probably make a stronger case for Protoss.
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On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL.
WTF is this now ?
"has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues."
GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight.
40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ?
On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S!
How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none.
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On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none.
Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done.
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On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none.
look at serral's 'competition' in wcs, he won montreal playing only one matchup lololol.
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Germany622 Posts
On November 27 2018 06:23 terribleplayer1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. While GSL is harder than WCS, the GSL field is more top heavy than WCS. I think the best 32 players in the world a solid 10~ are non-korean. We've seen korean juggernauts get defeated by non-serral foreigners plenty of times.
That might be right, but... what do we make out of this? I really don't think that GSL is more top heavy. We have more very good and overall better players in Korea. But we also know that a handful (or two if you will) of foreigners can somewhat compete with them.
It's still to be noted that only Serral was able this year to get past the Ro8 of any tournament where a meaningful amount of Koreans played in.
On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none.
GSL vs the World and Blizzcon weren't the hardest tournaments. You may argue that they were as hard as GSL Code S but then Serral still "only" won 2 while Maru won 3. Maru did so in an environment where opponents know him very well and had much time to prepare solely for him.
Maru's period of great performances lasted from March (WESG) to Septembre which is 6 months of unquestionable greatness. Serral's period of evenly great performances lasted from August (GSL vs the World) until now which is 4 months of coequal greatness. I exclude Serral's victories at WCS Austin and Valencia because his competition was not as hard in those tournaments.
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On November 27 2018 10:44 fronkschnonk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 06:23 terribleplayer1 wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. While GSL is harder than WCS, the GSL field is more top heavy than WCS. I think the best 32 players in the world a solid 10~ are non-korean. We've seen korean juggernauts get defeated by non-serral foreigners plenty of times. That might be right, but... what do we make out of this? I really don't think that GSL is more top heavy. We have more very good and overall better players in Korea. But we also know that a handful (or two if you will) of foreigners can somewhat compete with them. It's still to be noted that only Serral was able this year to get past the Ro8 of any tournament where a meaningful amount of Koreans played in. Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. GSL vs the World and Blizzcon weren't the hardest tournaments. You may argue that they were as hard as GSL Code S but then Serral still "only" won 2 while Maru won 3. Maru did so in an environment where opponents know him very well and had much time to prepare solely for him. Maru's period of great performances lasted from March (WESG) to Septembre which is 6 months of unquestionable greatness. Serral's period of evenly great performances lasted from August (GSL vs the World) until now which is 4 months of coequal greatness. I exclude Serral's victories at WCS Austin and Valencia because his competition was not as hard in those tournaments.
unless you dont consider GSL season 3 and Neeb
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Congrats to Serral, but some of the games and that last game especifically was ugly, serral's adaptation to inno's style was furiously laying down creep tumors like his life depended on it and inno was playing TvCreep for the majority of the game.
Now, you guys gotta understand that having good creep spread is a very low risk very high reward skill that has a massive impact especially in ZvT, Serral is just one of the few that realized how important it is to spread like crazy, but other zergs are catching up and not only the games are getting uglier to watch, it just doesnt feel good to play the game as a terran when you are forced to kill creep tumors as the main thing in a game.
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On November 27 2018 09:36 NinjaNight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 09:07 Starcloud wrote:On November 27 2018 05:01 fronkschnonk wrote:On November 27 2018 03:56 SnowAngel wrote:
If the term "bonjwa" doesn't apply to a guy who hasn't lost a single bo3 or bo5 at any LAN since early February, despite attending to every major LAN tournament outside of Korea (some even there), does it apply to anyone? It's hard to consider someone as bonjwa who wasn't part of the toughest competition for most of the year. It's not Serral's fault but to me a bonjwa not only has to be dominant but also has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues. That's sadly just not the case for Serral. As long as South Korea is the pinnacle of SC2 competition, one cannot be called bonjwa without winning a GSL. WTF is this now ? "has to be dominant at the hardest tournaments/leagues." GSL vs. World and Blizzcon were the hardest tournaments of the year. Serral had exactly 0 losses there, with dominating perfomances against everybody he faced, maybe not including Stats who in vs World even put up some fight. 40 - 0 score. Whats there to argue about ? On November 27 2018 05:34 NinjaNight wrote:
Yep, because of that you could even argue that Maru had a higher level of performance this year than Serral. Let's see Serral win all those GSL code S! How in earth can he have HIGHER LEVEL of performance, if he was much worse than Serral or even Stats in the hardest tournaments of the year ???? Seriously, what is the logic behind that ?? Oh wait, there is none. Maru won GSL Code S, the hardest tournament in existence, multiple times which was unprecedented. Serral wasn't at GSL Code S so unfortunately we can only speculate, but the point is Maru's achievement was incredible and could be considered as good or better than what Serral has done.
Until something changes, Code S is only the biggest potential challenge for Serral, whereas for everyone else the hardest tournament to win is something Serral is entered in. Honestly, a better argument for these camps to debate is the preferential bias for preparation leagues over weekenders. Maru's recent inability to produce results without extended preparation for his opponent is too often used to discredit weekenders, when it might be a flaw worth discussion.
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On November 27 2018 11:05 IshinShishi wrote:
Congrats to Serral, but some of the games and that last game especifically was ugly, serral's adaptation to inno's style was furiously laying down creep tumors like his life depended on it and inno was playing TvCreep for the majority of the game.
Now, you guys gotta understand that having good creep spread is a very low risk very high reward skill that has a massive impact especially in ZvT, Serral is just one of the few that realized how important it is to spread like crazy, but other zergs are catching up and not only the games are getting uglier to watch, it just doesnt feel good to play the game as a terran when you are forced to kill creep tumors as the main thing in a game.
Have you been away from sc2 since early wol? Every zerg pro knows how important it is.
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On November 27 2018 14:17 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 11:05 IshinShishi wrote:
Congrats to Serral, but some of the games and that last game especifically was ugly, serral's adaptation to inno's style was furiously laying down creep tumors like his life depended on it and inno was playing TvCreep for the majority of the game.
Now, you guys gotta understand that having good creep spread is a very low risk very high reward skill that has a massive impact especially in ZvT, Serral is just one of the few that realized how important it is to spread like crazy, but other zergs are catching up and not only the games are getting uglier to watch, it just doesnt feel good to play the game as a terran when you are forced to kill creep tumors as the main thing in a game. Have you been away from sc2 since early wol? Every zerg pro knows how important it is.
just ignore, he's been talking about "TvCreep" since at least sunday.
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On November 27 2018 14:17 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 11:05 IshinShishi wrote:
Congrats to Serral, but some of the games and that last game especifically was ugly, serral's adaptation to inno's style was furiously laying down creep tumors like his life depended on it and inno was playing TvCreep for the majority of the game.
Now, you guys gotta understand that having good creep spread is a very low risk very high reward skill that has a massive impact especially in ZvT, Serral is just one of the few that realized how important it is to spread like crazy, but other zergs are catching up and not only the games are getting uglier to watch, it just doesnt feel good to play the game as a terran when you are forced to kill creep tumors as the main thing in a game. Have you been away from sc2 since early wol? Every zerg pro knows how important it is.
You don't quite understand, go watch that final game vs inno, no zerg dedicates his gameplay towards spreading creep as much as serral does, its like he doesnt care about much else, unlike korean zergs that like poking and moving around with their units and neglect optimal creep spread.
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Scarlett's creep is probably better than Serral's, every Zerg knows creep is extremely important vs T.
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On November 27 2018 14:22 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2018 14:17 ETisME wrote:On November 27 2018 11:05 IshinShishi wrote:
Congrats to Serral, but some of the games and that last game especifically was ugly, serral's adaptation to inno's style was furiously laying down creep tumors like his life depended on it and inno was playing TvCreep for the majority of the game.
Now, you guys gotta understand that having good creep spread is a very low risk very high reward skill that has a massive impact especially in ZvT, Serral is just one of the few that realized how important it is to spread like crazy, but other zergs are catching up and not only the games are getting uglier to watch, it just doesnt feel good to play the game as a terran when you are forced to kill creep tumors as the main thing in a game. Have you been away from sc2 since early wol? Every zerg pro knows how important it is. You don't quite understand, go watch that final game vs inno, no zerg dedicates his gameplay towards spreading creep as much as serral does, its like he doesnt care about much else, unlike korean zergs that like poking and moving around with their units and neglect optimal creep spread.
Serral only cans about spreading creep. (And macro, micro, counterattacking etc.)
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EPT
