EPTSerral wins HomeStory Cup 18 - Page 4
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Boucot
France15997 Posts
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batatm
Israel116 Posts
On November 26 2018 21:12 ParksonVN wrote: It's a fact that no matter how many titles Serral gets from now on, he will never surpass MVP, Inno, Life, Zest or even sOs in the SC2 all time ranking. Why? Becoz the Korean scene, aka the main scene is dead, this era is by far not the highest skilled one because i don't see that in the games. When you are as talented and hard-working and live with as many advantages as Serral, it's not hard to continue the dominance compared to the top Korean. At least Serral can farm 4 ez-money WCS a year while the rest of the best players have to compete for just 3 GSLs and a super tournament. SC2 can get better i believe, but in "entertainment wise", not "skill wise" or "esport wise" when the main scene is that restricted (not all Blizzard's fault though). while i think that without a doubt serral is the best player of 2018, i usually refrain from absolute titles. to be called GOAT, serral needs to show his dominance over several years and prefferably win a GSL (ofc, that doesn't mean he needs to replicate this year's insane run). that being said, you sound like a nostalgic old man who has problems adapting to modern times... plz note that i am not trying to ridicule you, but claiming that past achievements can't be surpassed, just because the conditions have changes, is not a valid arguement imo. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On November 26 2018 19:16 Dave4 wrote: Hello friend, I respect your opinion on the matter. Even if you value WCS less than GSL I find it weird that people are willing to completely disregard it and say it doesn't matter. If he had lost those tournaments I'm sure you'd be pointing to that and saying it proved he wasn't good. The fact is despite better players generally winning in SC2, there remains a high degree of volatility which is why players like Has or Seed or Sniper can sometimes reach a finals. The most impressive thing about Serral to me is how ridiculously long his streak has been. It bucks any metrics on randomness in the game. Keep in mind back in the early days of SC2 people argued things like "there will never be a Bonjwa in SC2 because it is too volatile". Games can be won or lost on one single poor engagement, but Serral has mastered the game so much that he has not lost a single offline bo3 since March. It's insanity. Sure I'll agree 3x GSL beats 3 or even 4 WCS but when you add it all up Serral is simply not losing regardless of who he is playing or where at the moment. He is clutch as heck. And the whole 'noone is preparing for him properly' thing is just rubbish to me, he has the single biggest target on his back in SC2. Well, I'm not disregarding WCS at all. I think it became more impressive and if you do well against Zergs in WCS you're probably really legit. And don't get me wrong: Serral's streak is really impressive and I consider him to be probably the best player in the world right now. But his streak did not begin with the first WCS this year - at least by far not on the level he showed since WCS vs the World. Winning 5 A-class tournaments and 2 A+-class tournaments is still less than winning 3 A+ tournaments and just one A tournament. It's the same with soO's long streak of 2nd places which can't outmatch the first places of Zest or Inno in that time. Also the preparing-argument is still valid, I think. It's a big difference if you prepare for the playstyle of a player in general or if you systematicly plan out a scheduled series to the last detail which isn't surrounded by other matches and a exhausting travel plus unfamiliar circumstaces. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
At this point you can only say he has had the best YEAR ever. But people are already assuming Bonjwa status... not so fast! I've been around since the beginning of SC2 and Serral's dominance has only been going on for a relatively short time. One amazing year doesn't make you best ever. If 2019 is as good as this year for him we can start having this discussion... | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
If you can't see it, you're the TOAD. Nuff said. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 26 2018 23:56 Locutos wrote: Undeniably Serral is the GOAT. If you can't see it, you're the TOAD. Nuff said. Such a poet  Well played Serral! You did us proud!! | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 26 2018 23:56 NinjaNight wrote: People are already jumping to conclusions that he's the best ever? At this point you can only say he has had the best YEAR ever. But people are already assuming Bonjwa status... not so fast! I've been around since the beginning of SC2 and Serral's dominance has only been going on for a relatively short time. One amazing year doesn't make you best ever. If 2019 is as good as this year for him we can start having this discussion... To say the truth, the Bonjwa title is more about dominance than consistency. In fact, Jaedong was not Bonjwa as he couldn't win his titles in a streak in 2009 whereas sAviOr was despite because of his streak of MSL titles/finals while losing to nonames in lesser tournament; Serral's dominance level is indeed Bonjwa like. Thus said, in BW there was one major scene, the Korean one, while we have two separated scenes in Sc2; Serral should go to Korea and win there because we can call him a literal Bonjwa in my opinion. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 27 2018 00:06 Xain0n wrote: To say the truth, the Bonjwa title is more about dominance than consistency. In fact, Jaedong was not Bonjwa as he couldn't win his titles in a streak in 2009 whereas sAviOr was despite because of his streak of MSL titles/finals while losing to nonames in lesser tournament; Serral's dominance level is indeed Bonjwa like. Thus said, in BW there was one major scene, the Korean one, while we have two separated scenes in Sc2; Serral destroyed WCS and triumphed in cross scene tournaments, being the best this year and having the best run ever seen in Starcraft. However,I think he should go to Korea and win a Code S because we can call him a literal Bonjwa in my opinion and he needs some more achievements(give him time) and consistency through the years before we can call him GOAT. I apologize, i quoted instead of editing. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany7202 Posts
On November 26 2018 23:29 fronkschnonk wrote: Well, I'm not disregarding WCS at all. I think it became more impressive and if you do well against Zergs in WCS you're probably really legit. And don't get me wrong: Serral's streak is really impressive and I consider him to be probably the best player in the world right now. But his streak did not begin with the first WCS this year - at least by far not on the level he showed since WCS vs the World. Winning 5 A-class tournaments and 2 A+-class tournaments is still less than winning 3 A+ tournaments and just one A tournament. It's the same with soO's long streak of 2nd places which can't outmatch the first places of Zest or Inno in that time. Also the preparing-argument is still valid, I think. It's a big difference if you prepare for the playstyle of a player in general or if you systematicly plan out a scheduled series to the last detail which isn't surrounded by other matches and a exhausting travel plus unfamiliar circumstaces. [troll] GSL can not be a A+ tournament because the best player wasn't there  making WCS the actual A+ tournament... making Blizzcon the A+++ tournament, which obviously must count triple The "preparing-argument": Blizzcon had enough preparation time. Didn't help Maru now, did it? Kinda worked against him actually ^^ [/troll] Best HSC evaar! You really have achieved something to be proud of Take! Chapeau | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2217 Posts
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ubikz
69 Posts
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DieuCure
France3713 Posts
 But the fact that he didnt have to play the two best terrans in the world is a pity, even if it is absolutely not his fault. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On November 26 2018 22:45 Xain0n wrote: Older for sure, FAR past their prime not that true, less motivated i doubt since money prizes have skyrocketed. In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote: In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. That's an interesting theory | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
Neeb, Serral and Reynor are not simply younger but just plainly better than Nerchio, Snute and Mana ever were; not necessarily younger players are stronger. Flash in the post Kespa era still came back to being as strong as he was in 2010 despite being seven years older(his own opinion); or you could look at how much the next-gen in nowadays Tennis is struggling to take down Federer, Nadal and Djokovic despite the latter being past their prime in terms of age. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On November 27 2018 00:47 Xain0n wrote: Neeb, Serral and Reynor are not simply younger but just plainly better than Nerchio, Snute and Mana ever were; not necessarily younger players are stronger. I can't agree with this. Snute could go toe to toe with top tier koreans like Rain, herO, Classic or Flash at the height of the Kespa era. except for Serral of course, he's an anomaly but he's not the only player that surpassed Snute. | ||
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Mun_Su
France2063 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
If we speak of achievements, did Snute ever win a tournament in Korea? KeSPA players weren't really able to replicate their BW successes in HoTS given the game was not complex enough for them to shine, so probably you are overestimating the skill level of that era; if they had the same age, they would have shined way more in LoTV, for sure. Dominating supposedly weakened koreans in LoTV is undeniably a better feat than stealing series from them in the highest depth, questionably highest skilled HoTS era. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote: In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. I never know what to think of those age stats, since on one side there seems to be some mechanical loses as you get older, but on the other side there are also a lot of other factor that aren't necessarily physical. The girlfriend thing is a bit of meme, but there is something to be said about the fact that BW style team houses practically prohibit most kind of stable or long term relation or even the pursuit of other interest, like go to school. Basically you needed to get out of the BW scene if you wanted to do something else in your life, which is something less true these day, but it still exist. And of course the military didn't help. It's gonna be interesting to see in the following year if older SC2 player can keep up the pace of the younger one. I would point out to the FGC as an example that maybe age is less of a factor that we might think. It's a scene with a lot of new blood coming in, but there is very clear indication that player in their mid to late 30 can keep up very well despite the fact that it take very fast reflexes and mechanical skills. For example Tokido is probably the world best Street Fighters 5 player at something like 33-34 and Sako is currently ranked in the top 5 at 40 years old while having children. It's different style of game of course, but as far as the argument of mechanical skills and reaction time goes, it seems like you can overcome at least a good part of the age deficit if you have solid bases. | ||
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