EPTSerral wins HomeStory Cup 18 - Page 8
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
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Creager
Germany1962 Posts
On November 27 2018 22:58 ParksonVN wrote: This is what i thought about. Not taking any thing away Maru and TY's success but to me the main reason why they became so good recently is the fact that other Koreans are not trying hard and there are no new blood in the scene. Yup and that's also a great point to bring up as to why the overall skill level in this game has not increased as much as a lot of people think it has. Edit: Don't want to take anything away from pros and it's still impressive what they can pull off, but with pressure from younger generations hungry for championships and some time in the limelight this would be a whole different story. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On November 27 2018 16:30 Drfilip wrote: ...past the round of 8, like Neeb did in season 3? If you are arguing against someone with a strong opinion, I implore you to write nothing that is objectively false. You can write subjective stuff, but when it is objective you should stick with the truth. mea culpa I somehow forgot about Neeb's great GSL run. But still my point stands that in the final stages of a tournament with Koreans a foreigner is the exception. Don't get me wrong, we have great players like, Neeb, Showtime, uThermal, Reynor, Scarlett, Elazer and Special who are able to compete with top Koreans every now and then, but when it matters they are still in the minority in the playoffs and get rarer and rarer in further rounds. On November 27 2018 16:30 Drfilip wrote: The approach of measuring you are using is quite questionable. If someone is getting top score on every test, and then gets an increased difficulty of the tests while still getting top score, I would include the previous tests in my conclusion. Serral won everything for months before GSL vs the World. He has won everything after GSL vs the World too. I would like to make a comparison with Maru. Maru aced the difficult test GSL, three times. Maru failed in two easier tests - according to you - GSL vs the World and Global Finals. How come he failed the easy ones? Global Finals was a 0-3 after a week of preparation, no excuse for jetlag and it was against someone that has had a considerably worse year than Maru. My opinion is that you shouldn't focus on the victories. The victories are the extra fluff, while the games are the bread and butter. Looking at Maru's games, they are quite impressive, but there is a staleness to most of them. Maru played a few discrete styles, proxy being the most common style. Macro was not preferred, even if the macro was great. Looking at Serral's games, you have solid macro as a foundation. That is the go-to way of playing for Serral. Serral can be behind in early game and come back in the late game. He has done that over and over again. If Serral gets to the late game, he usually wins. Maru vs sOs was a total beat down. sOs predicted Maru's moves and won. If Maru had not been so stubborn about his style centric play, he could have played macro and won. It seems as if Maru is insecure when playing matches that are not prepared far in advance. He's been playing poorly in the group stages of GSL and he's been playing poorly in weekenders. Had he been the best overall, he would have performed better at these types of matches as well. Maru did great at IEM, which was a pleasant surprise, so that is a plus. I didn't say that GSL vs the World and Blizzcon were easier tests. I'm not really sure about that (is the Blizzcon roster better or the GSL Ro16? - debatable), but what I'm really comparing is the amount of victories in toughest competition where Maru is in the lead. Also I already said that Maru's period of domination lasted until his 3rd GSL-victory and obviously didn't continue after that. For Serral's wins before GSL vs the World: it's pointless. We just don't know how he would've performed at that stage of his play. Therefore it's not legit to include this into his period of dominance of top competition because he didn't participate in top competition at that time. When he did before in march he was beaten by Maru and Classic. To compare the playstyles doesn't help here. Doing this always leads to the conclusion that a particular playstyle is overall the better playstyle but that's nonsense. The best playstyle is the playstyle that wins. Yes, Maru getting rekt by sOs was quite ugly. But I think it's hard to judge. Maru looked quite uncontested in every other match and sOs is just weird and also is his teammate which makes up for weird mindgames. But those games happened after Maru's period of dominance anyway, so it's a bit unreasonable to compare the player in his peak to the player after his peak. "Had he been the best overall, he would have performed better at these types of matches as well." Well, the same can be said about Serral according to the league format. It may be that Serral would've destroyed GSL if he participated but he didn't, so that's just speculation. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote: These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... GSL is NOT the hardest tournament and never will be as long as Serral isn't seriously considering playing in it. Blizzcon is the hardest tournament because the best of the best of both worlds a playing for huge amount of money and fame. How can you not see this? If you are planning to use the "preparation argument" again: Blizzcon had plenty of that. Look what happened to Maru... he got crushed as hard as humanly possible. Serral didn't Wtf? GSL Code S is clearly harder than Blizzcon. Maru's problem at Blizzcon is he ran into his kryptonite, sOs, his protoss teammate who just has his number. It's similar to how Nadal is Federer's kryptonite and beat him all the time, but Federer is still the best ever. Again, let's see Serral start competing in the GSL Code S tournaments and see how he does. And I'm not even trying to argue that Maru is better. I'm not claiming who is better. I'm saying you're all jumping to conclusions and assuming that Serral is better and assuming that Serral absolutely had a better year when you shouldn't be. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
You guys say that the quality of Maru's successes is so much higher than Serral's that Maru still had a better year; while I can agree Maru's success are of higher quality on average(by not much), this is not enough to close the gap. I'm convinced Serral was already slightly ahead after BlizzCon and this HSC win cements his lead; judging by the polls, i'm definitely not the only one who believes that Serral deserves to be crowned Player of the Year. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:42 Xain0n wrote: Numbers are in favor of Serral, that's no jumping to conclusions. You guys say that the quality of Maru's successes is so much higher than Serral's that Maru still had a better year; while I can agree Maru's success are of higher quality on average(by not much), this is not enough to close the gap. I'm convinced Serral was already slightly ahead after BlizzCon and this HSC win cements his lead; judging by the polls, i'm definitely not the only one who believes that Serral deserves to be crowned Player of the Year. No I didn't say that, read my post. I'm not the one making claims. I'm saying you can't assume Serral's year was better or that he is better because he didn't compete in Code S, the hardest tournament, where Maru was absolutely incredible and won 3 times. Serral didn't have such a level of difficulty in his runs. I hope they play next year at a huge tournament, would be super interesting. And Serral should come to Code S and lets see what he can do there. | ||
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La1
United Kingdom659 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:25 NinjaNight wrote: Wtf? GSL Code S is clearly harder than Blizzcon. Maru's problem at Blizzcon is he ran into his kryptonite, sOs, his protoss teammate who just has his number. It's similar to how Nadal is Federer's kryptonite and beat him all the time, but Federer is still the best ever. Again, let's see Serral start competing in the GSL Code S tournaments and see how he does. And I'm not even trying to argue that Maru is better. I'm not claiming who is better. I'm saying you're all jumping to conclusions and assuming that Serral is better and assuming that Serral absolutely had a better year when you shouldn't be. Seems like Maru's problem is that he has Kryptonite! which i haven't seen yet from serral (maybe 3 rax's! lol). If you look at GSL S2 and S3, zest top4 twice, top 4 home story neeb, top 4 gsl S3 but got knocked out in RO32 at WCS. Rouge top 16 GSL, but doesn't even make it out of group in home story i think when you are looking at the player base i think theres an argument that the gap is closing a lot and some foreigners are actually near top level koreans. Maybe not at the start of this year, but defiantly in the last 5 months. edit: somebody posted this on reddit: Total (https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/a0vo7n/korean_vs_foreigner_winrates_in_hsc_18/) Total map score: Koreans 110-65 Foreigners Total series score: Koreans 42-23 Foreigners | ||
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Irvo232
3 Posts
Serral's 2018 winrate against Koreans is the highest ever, and it's also against highest ranked opponents. Maru doesn't even come close to those numbers, and while winning three GSLs is awesome, you can't simply forget all the tournaments Maru lost and pretend they didn't happen. There is the obvious statistically clear truth and people who deny obvious truth for whatever emotional reasons. Serral isn't only the best player this year, but his 2018 is the best year a SC2 player has ever had. This is not arguable. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:42 Xain0n wrote: Numbers are in favor of Serral, that's no jumping to conclusions. You guys say that the quality of Maru's successes is so much higher than Serral's that Maru still had a better year; while I can agree Maru's success are of higher quality on average(by not much), this is not enough to close the gap. I'm convinced Serral was already slightly ahead after BlizzCon and this HSC win cements his lead; judging by the polls, i'm definitely not the only one who believes that Serral deserves to be crowned Player of the Year. But why? What is your argument? What makes Serral's performance this year better? It sounds like you're saying that Serral's successes of "lower quality" add up to a higher quality because he had so many of them. Serral only had 2 comparable successes to Maru's 3. And while Serral seems to be the best player right now, his period of comparable greatness does not yet last as long as Maru's did last when he won his 3 consecutive GSL-championships. Serral's HSC performance wasn't as convincing as one could've assumed. In his match against Taeja he looked kind of "sloppy" sometimes (for Serral's standards that is) and his final against Innovation was very close, too. Considering Taeja just coming back and Inno being in a questionable form for quite some time now, we probably saw a weak spot in Serral's skillset which - luckily for him - haven't got tested very much throughout the year. On November 28 2018 00:55 Irvo232 wrote: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/a0v8c4/fun_fact_serrals_win_rate_against_koreans_now/ Serral's 2018 winrate against Koreans is the highest ever, and it's also against highest ranked opponents. Maru doesn't even come close to those numbers, and while winning three GSLs is awesome, you can't simply forget all the tournaments Maru lost and pretend they didn't happen. There is the obvious statistically clear truth and people who deny obvious truth for whatever emotional reasons. Serral isn't only the best player this year, but his 2018 is the best year a SC2 player has ever had. This is not arguable. Serral wasn't nearly as much exposed to top competition as Maru was. Maru arguably played in 7 such tournaments (3 GSLs + 2 Super Tournaments + GSL vs the World + Blizzcon) and Serral only in two. Would Serral have participated in top competition in the first third of the year he wouldn't have won anything as his performances at WESG and IEM imply. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:09 fronkschnonk wrote: But why? What is your argument? What makes Serral's performance this year better? It sounds like you're saying that Serral's successes of "lower quality" add up to a higher quality because he had so many of them. Serral only had 2 comparable successes to Maru's 3. And while Serral seems to be the best player right now, his period of comparable greatness does not yet last as long as Maru's did last when he won his 3 consecutive GSL-championships. Serral's HSC performance wasn't as convincing as one could've assumed. In his match against Taeja he looked kind of "sloppy" sometimes (for Serral's standards that is) and his final against Innovation was very close, too. Considering Taeja just coming back and Inno being in a questionable form for quite some time now, we probably saw a weak spot in Serral's skillset which - luckily for him - haven't got tested very much throughout the year. He won more, he won the biggest tournament, he had better stats, a better streak, earned more; what else? I cannot state that WCS are harder than GSL because it isn't true. Still, if Maru's victories are let's say worth 1.3 on average as supposedly harder, he won 4 premier tournaments out of NINE whereas Serral won 6/9 plus HSC(which technically wasn't a premier but it could easily have been); if we try to weight them by saying that Serral's victories are worth 1 or 0.9 on average due to supposedly easier opposition, Serral still has accomplished more. HSC was played during the new patch which was harder for every Zerg and better for every Terran judging by final standings; Serral was intensively tested in his worst matchup and he still ended up winning despite not being as mechanichally perfect as he was during BlizzCon. | ||
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Drxwe5435g
1 Post
On November 27 2018 00:37 Charoisaur wrote: In BW the oldest player to ever win an OSL was Jangbi with 23 years. Usually players couldn't keep up anymore at an advanced age and got surpassed by the younger generation. The reason the current koreans are still competitive is because there's no new blood to surpass them. If you think players don't get worse at a higher age than you must think that it's just a coincidence that every single bw player older than 23 couldn't keep up anymore. You can even see it in the foreign scene with Nerchio, Snute and Mana suddenly being surpassed by Serral, Neeb, Elazer, Reynor and co despite being the top foreigners for years. Did they just get lazy? I don't think so. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the youngest player in the korean scene is now suddenly dominating the scene in his 8th year as a progamer. This concept of people getting too slow to compete with the best players most likely not true. There was one study few years ago, conducted using sc2 replays and the authors concluded that the peak in "looking-doing latency" seems to peak at 24 years of age. This study was kinda flawed because the older players reported playing less than younger players, and even then the variance on that very slight decline was quite big, only the average showed a trend. If we go by that study, your argument about people getting too old at 24, does not make any sense as they should be at their peak, and after few years they are as slow as younger players like 19 etc so 28 for and example doesnt have any disadvantage at all compared to someone like 20 or something. Anyway, these changes are so negligible and there are other things were brains mature only at mid 20s as well that this whole idea of "25 should retire" is nonsensical. What actually has been the reason why people in the past have often retired around 25? Most likely the reason has been crazy practice regiments, esport players play more their games than sports players practice and those guys also have normal lifes with families etc. Esport field also has historically been very unstable career and people realize they should start thinking their future, and start tranditioning while they still are young. No one can stay on the very top when they just burn out, patches may not favor them, or million other reasons, while all other life stuff is on back of their mind. Also, its not like its unheard of that one of the best players are nearing 30, some of the top csgo players are almoust 30, fighter games the same deal, and in BW its not like Flash couldnt still be the best if the old Kespa BW returned back. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
That's no indicator because most of his wins were vs lesser competition. "He won the biggest tournament" Biggest in terms of what? In terms of how hard the competition was? That's just not the case. "He had better stats" Yes. But in a smaller sample of games (2/3 of Maru's amount of matches against Koreans). "A better streak" That's true. The best streak of Maru vs Koreans this year was 18-2. The best streak of Serral was 15-0. The difference is veeeery small. At the same time one has to note that Maru's streak stretched over 6 months while Serral's streak stretched over 4 months until now. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
On November 27 2018 22:52 ParksonVN wrote: Yeah "It's difficult to stay on top". Sure, because we have one guy winning all the GSLs and one guy winning all the WCSs in a year. Why can't some people just admit that the scene is a whole lot less competitive now? Dont say because Maru and Serral are too good, to me they are no special than MVP, Inno, Life, Zest... when they were at peak, it's just because the majority of Korean pros are not committing that much to the game anymore. $$ prize is as high as ever. Serral just made 500k this year. Other players made more as well. U tell me they see Serral and Maru making themselves millionaires and that makes no one want to get a shared of that! Nonsense. $ to train in StarCraft is in historic low, since it's become free to play. Serral and Maru are young, and have been training for years, and are talented. They are Messi and Cristiano. It will take some other talented young people to overcome them. Like Mbappe or Neymar | ||
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Doink
75 Posts
If Serral kept winning for the next years these people will still argue that somehow that's not enough and Maru is still better. Kind of ridiculous. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:36 fronkschnonk wrote: "He won more" That's no indicator because most of his wins were vs lesser competition. "He won the biggest tournament" Biggest in terms of what? In terms of how hard the competition was? That's just not the case. "He had better stats" Yes. But in a smaller sample of games (2/3 of Maru's amount of matches against Koreans). "A better streak" That's true. The best streak of Maru vs Koreans this year was 18-2. The best streak of Serral was 15-0. The difference is veeeery small. At the same time one has to note that Maru's streak stretched over 6 months while Serral's streak stretched over 4 months until now. That he won more is indeed an indicator. It's not like Serral won 4 go4sc2, he won 4/4 WCS that you can't disregard as low class tournament by completely ignoring them; WCS competition is quite strong despite not being korean level. BlizzCon IS the sc2 tournament; highest prize by far, most prestigious(How many Code S have there been? How many BlizzCon? Do you think Seed would have preferred to win a BlizzCon or a Code S?), hardest competition(in ro8 for sure, if not during groupstage). Maru had one impressive year with his unprecedent Code S victories but he lost more tournaments than he won, most notably the most important; 2018 is the year of Serral. | ||
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IshinShishi
Japan6156 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:48 Locutos wrote: $$ prize is as high as ever. Serral just made 500k this year. Other players made more as well. U tell me they see Serral and Maru making themselves millionaires and that makes no one want to get a shared of that! Nonsense. $ to train in StarCraft is in historic low, since it's become free to play. Serral and Maru are young, and have been training for years, and are talented. They are Messi and Cristiano. It will take some other talented young people to overcome them. Like Mbappe or Neymar Naive perspective, during Mvp's prime for instance there were more tournaments, teams paying decent salaries and sponsorships given to players, there was A LOT more money in the scene than there is now, this isn't the highest skill era, nor the most competitive one, deal with it. | ||
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SootShade
31 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:09 fronkschnonk wrote: Would Serral have participated in top competition in the first third of the year he wouldn't have won anything as his performances at WESG and IEM imply. No, those results decidedly don't 'imply' that. I find it hilarious that we've come to the point where you have to try to use top 4 finishes in top tier tournaments to minimize a player's achievements. Only with Serral do you get this level of mental gymnastics. | ||
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Doink
75 Posts
On November 28 2018 02:17 IshinShishi wrote: Naive perspective, during Mvp's prime for instance there were more tournaments, teams paying decent salaries and sponsorships given to players, there was A LOT more money in the scene than there is now, this isn't the highest skill era, nor the most competitive one, deal with it. And still, MVP would get crushed by today's not even top koreans. Probably most of the not korean top players would beat him. MVP would not be able to compete in today's scene without improving. Deal with it  . | ||
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