EPTThanks for another kickass HSC!!
Serral wins HomeStory Cup 18 - Page 9
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-KG-
Denmark1218 Posts
Thanks for another kickass HSC!! | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 28 2018 02:36 -KG- wrote: Serral did seem to have a weakness vs. those proxies - one can only wonder what had happened if Inno had proxied once more in game 7 :o But what an amazing year for Serral - looking forward to watching his games in 2019. Thanks for another kickass HSC!! There was an argument for 2/3 rax proxies being too effective against Zerg; in g7 Serral's build was appropriately defensive i guess and that's why Inno was ahead at first. | ||
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Echoic_
12 Posts
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Doink
75 Posts
On November 28 2018 02:49 Echoic_ wrote: After only being back for such a short time, Taeja looks seriously impressive, 3-2 Serral. Serral didn't even look that good against Taeja in a lot of those games. And Taeja honestly just gave Serral two of those games because he still isn't as sharp as he used to be mechanically, but he'll get there. Excited to see Taeja come back into form and dominate kids once again. Don't want to take anything away from Taeja but if you paid attention you've seen that Serral made a lot of mistakes in those games he normally doesn't make. He has the most potential of all koreans to get better than Serral though imo. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 28 2018 01:36 fronkschnonk wrote: "He won more" That's no indicator because most of his wins were vs lesser competition. "He won the biggest tournament" Biggest in terms of what? In terms of how hard the competition was? That's just not the case. "He had better stats" Yes. But in a smaller sample of games (2/3 of Maru's amount of matches against Koreans). "A better streak" That's true. The best streak of Maru vs Koreans this year was 18-2. The best streak of Serral was 15-0. The difference is veeeery small. At the same time one has to note that Maru's streak stretched over 6 months while Serral's streak stretched over 4 months until now. Exactly! | ||
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SetStndbySmn
United States657 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:45 NinjaNight wrote: No I didn't say that, read my post. I'm not the one making claims. I'm saying you can't assume Serral's year was better or that he is better because he didn't compete in Code S, the hardest tournament, where Maru was absolutely incredible and won 3 times. Serral didn't have such a level of difficulty in his runs. I hope they play next year at a huge tournament, would be super interesting. And Serral should come to Code S and lets see what he can do there. Prove it's a harder tournament for anyone other than Serral. As far as I can tell, the data right now points to 'beating Serral' as the hardest task currently in SC2, so it follows that the hardest tournament to win is the tournament where Serral must lose for that to happen. Maru has failed in two opportunities to meet Serral in a final and stake his claim; Serral showed up at the final, Maru did not. Winners gonna win. So why is it exactly that code S is the hardest? Is it that it's a preparation format? Many players probably find that format to be easier because it aligns with their strengths and weaknesses as a player, while others probably prefer weekenders. We shouldn't generalize the difficulty of preparation vs. weekenders to all players, because it's almost certainly different from player to player. E.g. For Maru, weekend tournaments seem to be the more difficult format. | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
On November 28 2018 00:45 NinjaNight wrote: No I didn't say that, read my post. I'm not the one making claims. I'm saying you can't assume Serral's year was better or that he is better because he didn't compete in Code S, the hardest tournament, where Maru was absolutely incredible and won 3 times. Serral didn't have such a level of difficulty in his runs. I hope they play next year at a huge tournament, would be super interesting. And Serral should come to Code S and lets see what he can do there. Read the post again. It says "guys", that is plural. There is no mention of you, NinjaNight, so I am having trouble understanding why you responded like that. Xain0n: some people (naming no one) is doing this! NinjaNight: I do not do that! Take it back! It seems very juvenile. I actually mean juvenile like a 12 year old, literally (not figuratively). I work with a lot of pre-teens and early teens. The 12yo are the worst in feeling unjustly attacked when someone is critizicing someone else. They are making themselves the victims when they shouldn't. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 28 2018 03:32 Drfilip wrote: Read the post again. It says "guys", that is plural. There is no mention of you, NinjaNight, so I am having trouble understanding why you responded like that. Xain0n: some people (naming no one) is doing this! NinjaNight: I do not do that! Take it back! It seems very juvenile. I actually mean juvenile like a 12 year old, literally (not figuratively). I work with a lot of pre-teens and early teens. The 12yo are the worst in feeling unjustly attacked when someone is critizicing someone else. They are making themselves the victims when they shouldn't. No need for this crap when we're having a fine discussion. I was obviously one of the people he was addressing based on his posts. There's no problem here. It seems like you're just looking for a way to attack the person whose opinion you don't like when you should instead be attacking the argument. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 28 2018 03:08 SetStndbySmn wrote: Prove it's a harder tournament for anyone other than Serral. As far as I can tell, the data right now points to 'beating Serral' as the hardest task currently in SC2, so it follows that the hardest tournament to win is the tournament where Serral must lose for that to happen. Maru has failed in two opportunities to meet Serral in a final and stake his claim; Serral showed up at the final, Maru did not. Winners gonna win. So why is it exactly that code S is the hardest? Is it that it's a preparation format? Many players probably find that format to be easier because it aligns with their strengths and weaknesses as a player, while others probably prefer weekenders. We shouldn't generalize the difficulty of preparation vs. weekenders to all players, because it's almost certainly different from player to player. E.g. For Maru, weekend tournaments seem to be the more difficult format. The quality of opponents that you have to go through round after round is as high as it gets at GSL Code S. It's pretty much nothing but top koreans every single round. Maru is the only person to ever win 3 of them in a short period of time. It's just inconclusive who has done better between the two because they've both been at a super high level and Serral has not participated in Code S. | ||
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ReditusSum
79 Posts
On November 27 2018 20:14 Harris1st wrote: These Anti-Serral posts are getting more ridiculous by the hour... Blizzcon is the hardest tournament I feel that this is highly debatable. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On November 28 2018 02:14 Xain0n wrote: That he won more is indeed an indicator. It's not like Serral won 4 go4sc2, he won 4/4 WCS that you can't disregard as low class tournament by completely ignoring them; WCS competition is quite strong despite not being korean level. BlizzCon IS the sc2 tournament; highest prize by far, most prestigious(How many Code S have there been? How many BlizzCon? Do you think Seed would have preferred to win a BlizzCon or a Code S?), hardest competition(in ro8 for sure, if not during groupstage). Maru had one impressive year with his unprecedent Code S victories but he lost more tournaments than he won, most notably the most important; 2018 is the year of Serral. Of course Serral's WCS wins are great. I'm neither disregarding nor ignoring them. But they are not at the competetive level as GSLs are. It's an achievement that quite some korean players could have made if they had been in Serral's shoes. If we hadn't a Korean who won 3 GSLs this year I'd be totally on your side because the extend the skillgap has gotten smaller and the amount of matches won by foreigners vs Koreans implys that nobody could match Serral's insane consistency. But Maru's consistency over a timespan of 6 months is just more impressive to me because it happened in the higher competition. Yes, Blizzcon is extremely prestigious and all that. And I totally get that it is the biggest dream to win on that stage. But competition-wise Blizzcon isn't harder than the GSLs. There are quite some factors that make this idea very questionable: - Blizzcon features the most successful players from throughout the year, not the best players at that moment. GSL and WCS do feature the very best players of their respective region at that moment every season (players that probably would've performed better considering their current form: Innovation, Trap, Solar, perhaps Gumi, uthermal, Reynor, Elazer,perhaps Scarlett) - the foreigner roster still has not enough depth to make up for the missing top Koreans who didn't make it into Blizzcon (I have the highest respect for Has, Lambo, Nerchio and Heromarine but they were merely cannon fodder for the rest of he field) Despite that I wouldn't consider Blizzcon a lesser competition than a GSL for the reasons you've mentioned. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil271 Posts
PS: (after February ;D ) | ||
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Dave4
494 Posts
Poll: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018 Most dominant run in SC2 history (Bonjwa?) (219) Best overall player of 2018 (107) Best foreigner of 2018 (39) GOAT (21) Best Zerg of 2018 (8) 394 total votes Your vote: Serral's place in SC2 History at the end of 2018 (Vote): Best foreigner of 2018 At the time of writing, there are 56% who correctly believe that Serrals run is Bonjwa status, 5% who believe he is a goat, and 28% who believe he was the best overall player of 2018. These responses (89% total) all effectively say "Better than Maru". The 1 in 10 people who do appear to argue that Maru is better seem to make a lot of forum noise per capita by comparison - as the for/against messages seems roughly 50/50. This suggests there could be some trolling involved, or that these users have a higher density of tears. If the latter, Maru's fans' tears of sorrow are mathematically approximately 5x denser than Serral's fans' tears of elation. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 28 2018 05:06 Locutos wrote: Maru lost against 2 players in the same championships with Serral. Also lost to Serral 1 - 0. Serral lost to no one. None. not a single person. Anyone. Zero people. Get it, guys?? DO YOU GET IT?!? N-o o-n-e b-e-a-t S-E-R-R-A-L! PS: (after February ;D ) Obviously. We all know this, but it's not sufficient. Maru's reign of dominance was prior to this time and against a stronger field over a prolonged period. Also, in these championships Maru unfortunately went up against his weakest link - TvP against sOs and Stats (and being against sOs really compounds the issue) while Serral avoided his weakness ZvT. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
And again, I don't really have a side in this. I'm not saying Maru was better and I'm not saying Serral was better. I'm saying Serral hasn't shown enough to say he was absolutely better than Maru. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 28 2018 04:59 fronkschnonk wrote: Of course Serral's WCS wins are great. I'm neither disregarding nor ignoring them. But they are not at the competetive level as GSLs are. It's an achievement that quite some korean players could have made if they had been in Serral's shoes. If we hadn't a Korean who won 3 GSLs this year I'd be totally on your side because the extend the skillgap has gotten smaller and the amount of matches won by foreigners vs Koreans implys that nobody could match Serral's insane consistency. But Maru's consistency over a timespan of 6 months is just more impressive to me because it happened in the higher competition. Yes, Blizzcon is extremely prestigious and all that. And I totally get that it is the biggest dream to win on that stage. But competition-wise Blizzcon isn't harder than the GSLs. There are quite some factors that make this idea very questionable: - Blizzcon features the most successful players from throughout the year, not the best players at that moment. GSL and WCS do feature the very best players of their respective region at that moment every season (players that probably would've performed better considering their current form: Innovation, Trap, Solar, perhaps Gumi, uthermal, Reynor, Elazer,perhaps Scarlett) - the foreigner roster still has not enough depth to make up for the missing top Koreans who didn't make it into Blizzcon (I have the highest respect for Has, Lambo, Nerchio and Heromarine but they were merely cannon fodder for the rest of he field) Despite that I wouldn't consider Blizzcon a lesser competition than a GSL for the reasons you've mentioned. Yea, that's what i said as well. WCS obviously is not at Code S level, but not to the extent they don't count when comparing Maru's and Serral's achievements; I think that only a couple of the best koreans could have gone as far as winning 4/4 in a single year for reasons i explained in one of my previous posts. As for BlizzCon 2018 being not harder than a Code S, Poopi pointed out that S3's ro16 was very slightly more competitive than BlizzCon's groupstage; except from Lambo, who could be top8 in WCS, i share your opinions about the foreigners who were there whereas I think Reynor, Scarlett and Elazer/UThermal could very well make up for Gumiho, Solar and Innovation(2018 shape)/Trap. In any of case, BlizzCon's playoffs were arguably more competitive. Serral has had seven month of complete invincibilty, while Maru lost more than once during his period of dominance. If Serral didn't win GSL vs the World(and HSC) i could have doubts as Maru's Code S achievements are indeed a feat without equal, but since there can only be one Player of the Year i'd give it to Serral even if not by a large margin. | ||
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Dave4
494 Posts
On November 28 2018 05:28 NinjaNight wrote: It's really easy to look at the results this year and just assume that Serral was the best. Any Joe Schmoe would just look at everything at face value without critically analyzing it and say Serral is best. Obviously it looks that way at first. It's hard to look deeper at what was really going on. And again, I don't really have a side in this. I'm not saying Maru was better and I'm not saying Serral was better. I'm saying Serral hasn't shown enough to say he was absolutely better than Maru. I think Ninja Night is a fairly good example of the Dave4 Tear Density Theorem. He or she has made 5 separate posts on page 9 of the comments section, increasing the density of tears approximately 5x in comparison to a Serral appreciator who may leave one comment per page to express their tears of elation for Serral's successful endeavours at HSC XVIII. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
Serral won a BO1 against maru proved that he can win a bo5 or bo7 but it's not like he is gonna butt fuck him guys... And ofc that BO1 should not be taken as a whole picture that we will never be able to see because this year could be the only moment where both are in prime form. But thanks to another JA player named sOs we won't be able to see it anw. | ||
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NinjaNight
428 Posts
On November 28 2018 05:42 Dave4 wrote: I think Ninja Night is a fairly good example of the Dave4 Tear Density Theorem. He or she has made 5 separate posts on page 9 of the comments section, increasing the density of tears approximately 5x in comparison to a Serral appreciator who may leave one comment per page to express their tears of elation for Serral's successful endeavours at HSC XVIII. Actually, I really like Serral. Cut the crap. Can't we just have a friendly debate without getting into stupid insults? Serral has had an amazing year and I'm not taking anything away from him. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On November 28 2018 05:52 NinjaNight wrote: Actually, I really like Serral. Cut the crap. The form Dave4 is using is humurous but probably could appear disrespectful. He is saying that while the poll shows a significant majority of pro-Serral votes, the actual posts in this discussion are even(and i'd add that the pro-Maru posters are in higher number or so it appears to me); this means that either many of the pro-Maru users didn't vote in the poll or that they simply are very vocal. | ||
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