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On October 19 2018 17:49 Waxangel wrote:
I feel like Maru vs Serral is a match-up that could wildly swing in either direction depending on the circumstances. I think Maru could crush with a Code S finals type 2-week prep, but I also could easily see Serral slamming Maru if they met in a weekender-style tournament (that leads me to think Serral has the slight edge on Maru at BlizzCon).
I agree about this. I'd love for Maru to win and I hope he does, but by default I'd actually give Serral the edge because of the format. The main hope I have is that Maru indicated that he cares about Blizzcon, which should mean he does a lot of prep, and hopefully he takes Serral seriously as an adversary.
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On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand. soO soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"
I was talking about Taeja
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On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand. soO soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"
Dark, Solar, herO, Marineking, PartinG, ByuL
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On October 19 2018 17:49 Waxangel wrote:
I feel like Maru vs Serral is a match-up that could wildly swing in either direction depending on the circumstances. I think Maru could crush with a Code S finals type 2-week prep, but I also could easily see Serral slamming Maru if they met in a weekender-style tournament (that leads me to think Serral has the slight edge on Maru at BlizzCon).
Maru has never played as well in foreign tournaments as in starleagues. He literally has the most starleague trophies out of anyone in sc2, but never won any weekenders except WeSG which was 90% foreigners.
Whether or not Serral has an advantage depends on why I guess. Does Maru just not take weekenders seriously? That certainly wouldn't apply here. Or is it just him not liking travel? The latter is well known and probably the biggest factor.
Then again Serral wasn't exactly convincing at the latest WCS event. He still looked like the best player there, but he wasn't 3-0'ing every match like normal.
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On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread. Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182). If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get: 7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games. Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games. + Show Spoiler + This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon. Those are facts. Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary). Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.
Yah facts are very important. 3 code s titles in degree of difficultly takes a giant dump on 4 wcs titles and a gsl vs the world. Sorry ;/. Will be bathing in serral fanboy tears when he gets knocked out in ro8 :p
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On October 19 2018 22:03 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread. Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182). If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get: 7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games. Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games. + Show Spoiler + This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon. Those are facts. Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary). Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well. Yah facts are very important. 3 code s titles in degree of difficultly takes a giant dump on 4 wcs titles and a gsl vs the world. Sorry ;/. Will be bathing in serral fanboy tears when he gets knocked out in ro8 :p
Nah Serral is better. He leads the head to head so he's better.
Srsly anytime I see someone argue that he's leading the head-to-head it really invalidates everything they say for me because using a bo1 showmatch and a series played on the EU server which is basically a freewin as arguments is completely ridicolous.
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On October 19 2018 17:40 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary). Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well. And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off.
Where did you find your statistics? They are not what I am finding on Aligulac.
Aligulac say that, since last BlizzCon (which I specified in my post), Maru and Serral played each other at
- IEM 22 January, Serral won 2-0
- WESG 17 March, Maru won 3-0
- GSL vs the World 8 April, Serral won 1-0
That is 2 wins for Serral and 1 for Maru, 3-3 in games.
Where did you find 3 wins for Maru and only 1 win for Serral?
Edit: Silly me, I missed that you wrote offline while I included online in my search. My bad. You are correct.
3-0 in offline tournament games, 1-0 in matches. Maru in the lead in the "official" statistics.
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On October 19 2018 22:18 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 17:40 Fango wrote:On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary). Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well. And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off. Where did you find your statistics? They are not what I am finding on Aligulac. Aligulac say that, since last BlizzCon (which I specified in my post), Maru and Serral played each other at - IEM 22 January, Serral won 2-0 - WESG 17 March, Maru won 3-0 - GSL vs the World 8 April, Serral won 1-0 That is 2 wins for Serral and 1 for Maru, 3-3 in games. Where did you find 3 wins for Maru and only 1 win for Serral?
He probabbly didn't count the 2-0 from IEM because, as Charoisaur said above, it was played on the european server which puts Maru at a huge disadvantage.
So we get a mapscore of 3-1 in favour of Maru
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On October 19 2018 22:24 TrashPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 22:18 Drfilip wrote:On October 19 2018 17:40 Fango wrote:On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary). Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well. And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off. Where did you find your statistics? They are not what I am finding on Aligulac. Aligulac say that, since last BlizzCon (which I specified in my post), Maru and Serral played each other at - IEM 22 January, Serral won 2-0 - WESG 17 March, Maru won 3-0 - GSL vs the World 8 April, Serral won 1-0 That is 2 wins for Serral and 1 for Maru, 3-3 in games. Where did you find 3 wins for Maru and only 1 win for Serral? He probabbly didn't count the 2-0 from IEM because, as Charoisaur said above, it was played on the european server which puts Maru at a huge disadvantage
I noticed. My bad.
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Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.
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On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.
2/3 of my favourite players in that group, gonna be maximum butt clenching from start to finish.
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On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.
Yah his zvp seems super strong but sos is an absolute nightmare for anyone at blizzcon..zest has proven that he can be a nightmare as well but its hit or miss.. should be a fun group to watch.
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On October 19 2018 23:08 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means. Yah his zvp seems super strong but sos is an absolute nightmare for anyone at blizzcon..zest has proven that he can be a nightmare as well but its hit or miss.. should be a fun group to watch.
Group seems simple tbh. sOs/Serral. No way Zest gets through. Especially given his blizzcon track record
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Photo: Carlton Beener
> Beener
reeeeeeeee
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I really like this article order please make no exceptions 
Also Group B:
Serral
Heromarine
sOs
Zest
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Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.
There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.
Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.
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On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.
sOs is the only threat for Serral because of his unpredictable plays, then again his PvZ reminded me of the loss he had vs Scarlett (but that was before the patch change though). Let's be honest guys, Zest hasn't been good vs the best Korean Zergs. He died a lot vs Rogue, Dark, Impact too (last GSL S3 iirc). Then loses to Elazer, then Serral. Most, if not all of them, were one sided. Whatever Zest is cooking up for Blizzcon, he'd better be prepared.
On the odds of Serral winning in his group, I'd give him a 70% to advance first or second (though I wished he advances first) unless he bombs out like Stats and Neeb last year 
Vs. sOs: sOs can be tricky to play against. Loved his cheesy and unorthodox plays
Vs. HeRoMaRinE: It's already obvious. HeRoMaRinE got defeated in 2 WCS events (6-0)
Vs. Zest: ZvP is Serral's strong matchup and Zest's died to a lot of Zergs throughout the year, no surprise.
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On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.
There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.
Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.
I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon
This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:
-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS
This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.
Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)
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This article is missing links to his awesome games!
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On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.
There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL
In reality there are more than two regions in the world. It's not just foreigner and korean. I don't think anyone loaths towards players actually from their region. For example, everyone on here from Finland cheers for Serral (that I know of). If there were any pros from the UK I'd support them as well.
But why would I cheer for a player from Finland (for example) over a player from Korea purely for that reason?
Though it's worth noting I dislike players who get overhyped. And foreigners historically get overhyped like crazy, and in recent years have it much better than koreans of the same skill. So maybe there's a bias there.
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EPT
