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Serral: The Harbinger - Road to BlizzCon 2018 (#9)

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Serral: The Harbinger - Road to BlizzCon 2018 (#9)

Text byTL.net ESPORTS
Graphics by3StrakGames
October 18th, 2018 19:27 GMT
Photo: Carlton Beener (via Blizzard)
Serral
Joona Sotala
ENCE eSports

The Harbinger

by hexhaven


We’ve never had a year quite like this in StarCraft 2’s eight year history.

StarCraft II is a young game with an ephemeral affinity for winners. We know almost intrinsically how tough the competition is at the highest levels of play; players vie for the smallest edge over their opponents, dedicate their entire lives to perfecting their craft. The pursuit of success is an all-consuming path, and fortunes naturally wax and wane in an environment where the conditions of victory hinge on the most fickle minutia. Stars rise and fall. Players reach dizzying heights only to crash hard mere weeks or months later. The few who rise above the churning crucible of competition are showered with every accolade imaginable, even if their streak of dominance lasts only a brief moment longer than the norm.

It has always been an immutable part of the scene. Until now.

Joona “Serral” Sotala has earned a list of nicknames as long as your arm: the King, the Emperor, the Flying Finn, the Finnish Phenom, the Warchild. No matter what moniker you use, it seems glib to summarize his journey in a short preview. We’ve seen remarkable phenomena during these past eight years, and yet here we’re treading unknown waters. Serral’s transformation has been nigh unprecedented.

Last year Serral was ranked #3 on the WCS Circuit. Among foreigners he was a recognized and respected entity, representative of the new breed of Zergs gaining prominence in LotV. Most of the respect Serral garnered came from his obvious potential though. His one true highlight of the year was reaching the grand finals in Jönköping, only to fall against the onslaught of Neeb. At that point Neeb was enjoying the zenith of his glory: the American Protoss would claim a total of three WCS titles over the course of the year. By comparison, Serral’s year was wholly lackluster. At the Global Finals the Finn’s only victory was against TRUE, a Zerg player famous for his aggressive, all-or-nothing style. He was still a knight-in-training preparing for the big clashes ahead.

Following the dismal performance in Anaheim, Serral returned home and started training for the new season. An immediate change was noticeable during his first stop in the European WESG qualifier. He prophetically plowed through the competition, only losing one series against ShoWTimE. A clean 4-0 victory in the finals against Nerchio secured him both a spot at the WESG tournament proper, and more importantly his first major offline title. In retrospect his showing in Barcelona was a catalyst. Maybe whatever mental blocks had been holding him in place were finally unlocked; perhaps Serral have discovered the perfect congruence of mechanics and strategy to match his philosophy towards SC2. No matter the case, all the latent promise we had been salivating over for years was unleashed in a way no one expected.

Almost a full year later, Serral stands as the most feared foreigner Zerg in history. He has won four consecutive WCS Circuit titles, reached in the semifinals at the IEM World Championship, finished third at WESG and claimed the GSL vs the World title. He hasn’t lost a single offline match since Nation Wars V in April. He’s won 49 offline matches since January 1st, translating to an astounding 90% win rate. Out of the four players he’s lost against—Scarlett, Classic, Maru and soO—during that period, he’s gotten revenge against three. All throughout the year Serral has been praised for his uncanny scouting prowess, his mechanical skill, and his sheer speed. Besides these conspicuous factors, he possesses two crucial elements that elevate him far beyond the reach of his contemporaries: his unwillingness to quit and his ability to clutch games. They are two sides of the same coin, but the distinction must be made: one cannot exist without the other.


Rank


#1
WCS Standings

WCS Points


14090

2018 Season Stats*


64–18 (78.05%) vs. Terran
84–18 (82.35%) vs. Protoss
171–40 (81.04%) vs. Zerg
*Via Aligulac.com. Matches between 2017-11-15 and 2018-10-16.


There’s a world famous concept in Finland called simply sisu. It’s all about tenacity, grit, guts, resilience, and stubbornly going up against impossible odds, knowing you’ll likely fail. In Serral’s case sisu is apparent in the way he approaches games. He clings onto survival, sometimes by pure force of will, knowing that as long as the game continues opportunities at victory will present themselves. This same intransigence characterizes his approach to matches as well. No matter the score line Serral plays every game as if it’s a Bo1. Fears and insecurities are reserved for the map at hand, neutralized lest they poison future games.

This year, the one tournament that encapsulated Serral’s sisu was GSL vs the World. The Zerg had dominated the WCS Circuit since Leipzig and proven his prowess against fellow players beyond any doubt. Serral had displayed utter command over his foes in ways reminiscent of legends like Stephano. Meanwhile his skill against Koreans remained a hotly debated loose end. He had failed to go all the way at the IEM World Championships or at WESG, enough to instigate doubt he was worthy of consideration alongside Maru and Dark. Hardcore fans shouted with glee as the new foreigner hope was expected to be their salvation. Skeptics scoffed at the very idea, expecting the slew of experienced Koreans to show Serral his place.

Coming off three WCS titles, Serral expectedly slapped Kelazhur silly in a 3-0 sweep. Events took an interesting turn as the sweeps unexpectedly continued. Serral took down INnoVation with another 3-0 victory, relishing some sweet payback for the previous year’s GSL vs the World. In the semifinals Serral faced Dark, the famous slayer of foreigner dreams and ZvZ maestro. The two had played against each other at IEM Katowice 2017, where Dark had humiliated Serral in a painfully one-sided match. This time around the tables were turned. Dark looked like he needed help in the mirror matchup, with Serral advancing to the grand finals.

Lastly he faced Stats , one of the most consistent Protoss players in Legacy of the Void, who had waded through the other side of the bracket to reach the finals. Stats had exorcised a few person demons by cleanly defeating Maru in the semifinals; he sought his second gold medal of 2018. It was a bout to remember. Both players teetered on the razor’s edge, bringing the series all the way to game seven. Stats took the first two maps with atypical early-game pressure only for Serral to adjust, tying the series 2-2 in longer macro. Stats won a grueling ordeal to stand one game from victory, but even when facing utter defeat Serral remained unfazed. With no wiggle room he switched his strategy to punishing midgame timings. Neither too hot nor too cold, this porridge was the ideal solution to bowl over Stats on the final two maps.

It’s precisely that unwavering determination that works so perfectly as an example of sisu. First down 0-2 and later 2-3, a lesser player would’ve folded under the pressure, allowing doubt to blunt his perception and sensitivity to risk. We’ve seen the same situation time and again in grand finals. Once your enemy gets under your skin, it’s essentially over. Truth be told, the younger Serral would’ve folded. A clutch comeback like that, in Korea against a GSL champion, speaks volumes how much Serral has grown as a player in just a single year.

It wasn’t the first time a non-Korean won a title in the Mecca of SC2. Serral wasn’t technically the first non-Korean to win a title in Korea during that year. But the manner in which he did was truly something eyeraising. If doubts lingered over Serral’s chances against the top-tier competition Korea could offer, his successive victories at GSL vs the World quickly silenced any detractors.

With four WCS Circuit titles, a GSL weekender title, and two Top 4 finishes, it’s almost impossible to oversell Serral’s performance this year. The amount of WCS points he’s accrued over the year has almost broken the system. It’s still wise to remember that the Finn’s not immortal though. In Montreal he struggled against Scarlett, Lambo and Reynor until finally securing his fourth WCS Circuit title. He can be defeated and the expectations resting on his shoulders are sky high. But his singular ability to claim victory from the jaws of defeat makes defeat seem less and less likely as Serral continues to improve.

There’s still one more tournament he desires to win. It’s the biggest and most prestigious of the year, one that overshadows all victories grand and small that precede it. For the first time ever we are heading into BlizzCon to compete for not only one championship title, but two. Serral strives for the first honor, the title of world champion and the first foreigner to become the unequivocal best player in the world. Fifteen players will scramble to hunt the most dangerous game of all. The Finnish juggernaut has an enormous target on his back, and securing it will provide no small consolation to the lucky poacher. We will find out which title proves to be more lasting.







Writer: hexhaven
Editors: CosmicSpiral, Olli
Photos: Carlton Beener, Blizzard, ESL, Leimmia, Bart Oerbekke, Helena Kristiansson
Graphics: 3StrakGames
Statistics: Aligulac
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TL+ Member
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
October 18 2018 19:34 GMT
#2
Nice read. Gogo Serral!!! I'll cheer for just him. Well and for Lambo I guess.
Tempest
Profile Joined October 2015
United States147 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 19:36:49
October 18 2018 19:36 GMT
#3
Editing my comment cause my computer is dumb. Everybody have a nice day.
Quick, think of some pithy cliche and toss it here
kajtarp
Profile Joined April 2011
Hungary467 Posts
October 18 2018 19:53 GMT
#4
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.
Why so serious?
Dave4
Profile Joined August 2018
494 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 20:13:31
October 18 2018 20:11 GMT
#5
He has had an unprecedented year. If Maru hadn't also had an unprecedented year at exactly the same time (admittedly as some point out with the teamhouse advantage); in any other era, Serral would already have been the undisputed best player in the world for some time.

Frothing to see him in the finals. I feel like anything but a Maru v Serral finals will have us wondering "what if?"

There could be no more perfect end to the 2018 story than that - hopefully a 7 game thriller.
BaneRiders
Profile Joined August 2013
Sweden3630 Posts
October 18 2018 20:36 GMT
#6
14090 WCS points. How many did the others get combined?

Serral shall not disappoint anyone I think. Not even the gods can save his opponents now.
Earth, Water, Air and Protoss!
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 21:21:55
October 18 2018 21:18 GMT
#7
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Zaros
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom3692 Posts
October 18 2018 21:31 GMT
#8
Serral should get out of his group but you never know, I would never doubt Zest and sOs can always do some bullshit.
TheDougler
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada8302 Posts
October 18 2018 21:40 GMT
#9
I'm rooting for him but I'm so so nervous. Never forget that somewhere out there in the world Lilbow is out there practicing for Diablo 4. Point being that we've learned the hard way to never bank on foreigners, especially at Blizzcon.
I root for Euro Zergs, NA Protoss* and Korean Terrans. (Any North American who has beat a Korean Pro as Protoss counts as NA Toss)
Dave4
Profile Joined August 2018
494 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 21:55:40
October 18 2018 21:52 GMT
#10
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.
Karim1
Profile Joined July 2018
1 Post
October 18 2018 22:01 GMT
#11
SoS will crush him.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13970 Posts
October 18 2018 22:09 GMT
#12
Surprised to see this article already. Going to be really interesting to see how he does....
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19219 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 23:21:31
October 18 2018 22:44 GMT
#13
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
yubo56
Profile Joined May 2014
687 Posts
October 18 2018 22:57 GMT
#14
Wow TL going all out on the order and not even making an exception for the big guns.

The order has to end on Maru though right?? Nobody's going to read the last few articles if both Serral and Maru are out (ok not literally, but this is still a bold move it seems)
Jung Yoon Jong fighting, even after retirement! Feel better soon.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 23:13:12
October 18 2018 23:03 GMT
#15
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-18 23:17:37
October 18 2018 23:17 GMT
#16
Remember Neeb. He won kespa cup but got bopped at blizzcon 2016.
He won 3 of 4 WCS events (almost happened to Serral, Montreal was a fucking tough run full of tiebreakers) in 2017, still couldn't go past group stage.

I think Serral not qualifying past group stages would be the most disappointing result in LotV, he is hyped (with reason ) af.
I really really hope he'll be able to at least qualify so we can see him in bo5+.
WriterMaru
stardog
Profile Joined August 2011
556 Posts
October 18 2018 23:27 GMT
#17
I don't envy Serral's position, none of the other foreigners have any hype going for them so once more all eyes are on him (and Maru, obviously). That's a lot of added pressure but like this article pointed out, he's been handling pressure very well so far so I don't think there's a legitimate reason for fearmongering.
yht9657
Profile Joined December 2016
1810 Posts
October 18 2018 23:53 GMT
#18
Serral's performance all year has been almost flawless, I don't see any possibility for him to lose to Zest who's terrible at PVZ, or sOs who's just mechanically inferior right now. The only real threat to him at Blizzcon should be Maru/TY/Stats, Classic can also be scary if prepared, and Dark if he shows enough respect.
Dave4
Profile Joined August 2018
494 Posts
October 19 2018 00:04 GMT
#19
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.
Psychonian
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2322 Posts
October 19 2018 00:14 GMT
#20
This has been truly something to watch. I hope to see Serral at the very least make it deep into Blizzcon.
Trans Rights
The Taxman
Profile Joined July 2018
37 Posts
October 19 2018 00:28 GMT
#21
he will win the hole god damn thing. save this comment
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
October 19 2018 00:29 GMT
#22
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8988 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 01:04:18
October 19 2018 00:38 GMT
#23
I think we will have a very good idea of how Blizcon will go for him after the group stage. As much as people want to say he is cool under pressure you can clearly see that he sometime gets a bit fluster when he is on big stages and he's entering Blizzcon the one with by far the most to lose.

If he's able to play his best I see him at least in the semi but he could also bomb out in group.

Edit: Also for the previous post Serral this year has a winning record against every Korean he faced at Blizzcon except Classic (-1) and Maru (0) with a +5 result overall, altough the sample is quite small.
His match against TY date from 2014, and the 0-3 against Dark (and a 2-1 vs Zest) came at the start of 2017 moments where Serral wasn't consider by anyone a world class performer.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
FrostedMiniWheats
Profile Joined August 2010
United States30730 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 00:45:11
October 19 2018 00:44 GMT
#24
He's up against sOs first. Poor guy

should take out Zest though, he always flames out at Blizzcon.
NesTea | Mvp | MC | Leenock | Losira | Gumiho | DRG | Taeja | Jinro | Stephano | Thorzain | Sen | Idra |Polt | Bomber | Symbol | Squirtle | Fantasy | Jaedong | Maru | sOs | Seed | ByuN | ByuL | Neeb| Scarlett | Rogue | IM forever
Dave4
Profile Joined August 2018
494 Posts
October 19 2018 00:59 GMT
#25
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
October 19 2018 01:12 GMT
#26
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
Terra1
Profile Joined June 2018
Philippines312 Posts
October 19 2018 02:31 GMT
#27
Serral can make it out of his group. The only threat that can stand in his way is sOs. Zest, with his PvZ being his main problem, I doubt he can do it. Let's be honest, he's one of the Tosses who's bad with the best Zerg players today, lost to Korean and foreign Zergs in some tournaments. He's able to win, some games vs Zerg but not in this Blizzcon.

Mudbuddha13
Profile Joined October 2018
9 Posts
October 19 2018 02:50 GMT
#28
these articles seem to fanboy the 'foreign' players over the 'korean' players. maybe to hype blizzcon. but regardless good read, im sure it would be great regardless who wins, hope we see some close games from all contestants.
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
October 19 2018 04:50 GMT
#29
If you look at his matches Serral is world class at every aspect of the game. He has no weakness.
The only player that rivals him is Maru.
That said, in a single tournament you need both skill and luck.
Drfilip
Profile Joined March 2013
Sweden590 Posts
October 19 2018 05:45 GMT
#30
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w

I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.
Random Platinum EU
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 06:07:46
October 19 2018 06:07 GMT
#31
Holy shit I love this game
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
Dave4
Profile Joined August 2018
494 Posts
October 19 2018 07:38 GMT
#32
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

That's okay I am happy to end this duel also, having bested you. Have a pleasant day.

User was warned for this post
Philozovic
Profile Joined August 2012
France1676 Posts
October 19 2018 08:15 GMT
#33
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO
INnoVation is the absolute best | I wept for i knew his words to be true
TrashPanda
Profile Joined July 2018
69 Posts
October 19 2018 08:28 GMT
#34
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 08:48:55
October 19 2018 08:40 GMT
#35
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well.

And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Waxangel
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
United States33278 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 08:49:56
October 19 2018 08:49 GMT
#36
I feel like Maru vs Serral is a match-up that could wildly swing in either direction depending on the circumstances. I think Maru could crush with a Code S finals type 2-week prep, but I also could easily see Serral slamming Maru if they met in a weekender-style tournament (that leads me to think Serral has the slight edge on Maru at BlizzCon).
AdministratorHey HP can you redo everything youve ever done because i have a small complaint?
Synaesthesia242
Profile Joined July 2018
3 Posts
October 19 2018 09:09 GMT
#37
Serral’s micro and macro, decision making - basically all aspects of his gameplay astonish me. He’s simply brilliant
Shuffleblade
Profile Joined February 2012
Sweden1903 Posts
October 19 2018 09:43 GMT
#38
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w

I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.

Thanks for fixing my sloppy, wrong and misleading post.

Really interesting statistics indeed, that is pretty insane. I also agree with Waxangel that I Believe Serral has the edge in a weekender tournament, getting more nervous about Marus prospects at the moment xD
Maru, Bomber, TY, Dear, Classic, DeParture and Rogue!
thanik60
Profile Joined October 2018
1 Post
October 19 2018 10:31 GMT
#39
--- Nuked ---
MrMischelito
Profile Joined February 2014
347 Posts
October 19 2018 10:49 GMT
#40
"Serral stands as the most feared foreigner Zerg in history."

I think this is not a fair statement. I remember Stephano was just as terrifying in his time.
neutralrobot
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia1025 Posts
October 19 2018 10:53 GMT
#41
On October 19 2018 17:49 Waxangel wrote:
I feel like Maru vs Serral is a match-up that could wildly swing in either direction depending on the circumstances. I think Maru could crush with a Code S finals type 2-week prep, but I also could easily see Serral slamming Maru if they met in a weekender-style tournament (that leads me to think Serral has the slight edge on Maru at BlizzCon).


I agree about this. I'd love for Maru to win and I hope he does, but by default I'd actually give Serral the edge because of the format. The main hope I have is that Maru indicated that he cares about Blizzcon, which should mean he does a lot of prep, and hopefully he takes Serral seriously as an adversary.
Maru | Life | PartinG || I guess I like aggressive control freaks... || Reynor will one day reign supreme || *reyn supreme
Philozovic
Profile Joined August 2012
France1676 Posts
October 19 2018 11:44 GMT
#42
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"


I was talking about Taeja
INnoVation is the absolute best | I wept for i knew his words to be true
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
October 19 2018 12:53 GMT
#43
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Dark, Solar, herO, Marineking, PartinG, ByuL
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 13:01:37
October 19 2018 13:01 GMT
#44
On October 19 2018 17:49 Waxangel wrote:
I feel like Maru vs Serral is a match-up that could wildly swing in either direction depending on the circumstances. I think Maru could crush with a Code S finals type 2-week prep, but I also could easily see Serral slamming Maru if they met in a weekender-style tournament (that leads me to think Serral has the slight edge on Maru at BlizzCon).

Maru has never played as well in foreign tournaments as in starleagues. He literally has the most starleague trophies out of anyone in sc2, but never won any weekenders except WeSG which was 90% foreigners.

Whether or not Serral has an advantage depends on why I guess. Does Maru just not take weekenders seriously? That certainly wouldn't apply here. Or is it just him not liking travel? The latter is well known and probably the biggest factor.

Then again Serral wasn't exactly convincing at the latest WCS event. He still looked like the best player there, but he wasn't 3-0'ing every match like normal.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
October 19 2018 13:03 GMT
#45
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w

I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.



Yah facts are very important. 3 code s titles in degree of difficultly takes a giant dump on 4 wcs titles and a gsl vs the world. Sorry ;/. Will be bathing in serral fanboy tears when he gets knocked out in ro8 :p
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 13:12:59
October 19 2018 13:12 GMT
#46
On October 19 2018 22:03 DomeGetta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w

I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.



Yah facts are very important. 3 code s titles in degree of difficultly takes a giant dump on 4 wcs titles and a gsl vs the world. Sorry ;/. Will be bathing in serral fanboy tears when he gets knocked out in ro8 :p

Nah Serral is better. He leads the head to head so he's better.
Srsly anytime I see someone argue that he's leading the head-to-head it really invalidates everything they say for me because using a bo1 showmatch and a series played on the EU server which is basically a freewin as arguments is completely ridicolous.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Drfilip
Profile Joined March 2013
Sweden590 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 13:25:17
October 19 2018 13:18 GMT
#47
On October 19 2018 17:40 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well.

And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off.

Where did you find your statistics? They are not what I am finding on Aligulac.
Aligulac say that, since last BlizzCon (which I specified in my post), Maru and Serral played each other at
- IEM 22 January, Serral won 2-0
- WESG 17 March, Maru won 3-0
- GSL vs the World 8 April, Serral won 1-0
That is 2 wins for Serral and 1 for Maru, 3-3 in games.

Where did you find 3 wins for Maru and only 1 win for Serral?

Edit: Silly me, I missed that you wrote offline while I included online in my search. My bad. You are correct.
3-0 in offline tournament games, 1-0 in matches. Maru in the lead in the "official" statistics.
Random Platinum EU
TrashPanda
Profile Joined July 2018
69 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 13:25:57
October 19 2018 13:24 GMT
#48
On October 19 2018 22:18 Drfilip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 17:40 Fango wrote:
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well.

And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off.

Where did you find your statistics? They are not what I am finding on Aligulac.
Aligulac say that, since last BlizzCon (which I specified in my post), Maru and Serral played each other at
- IEM 22 January, Serral won 2-0
- WESG 17 March, Maru won 3-0
- GSL vs the World 8 April, Serral won 1-0
That is 2 wins for Serral and 1 for Maru, 3-3 in games.

Where did you find 3 wins for Maru and only 1 win for Serral?

He probabbly didn't count the 2-0 from IEM because, as Charoisaur said above, it was played on the european server which puts Maru at a huge disadvantage.
So we get a mapscore of 3-1 in favour of Maru
Drfilip
Profile Joined March 2013
Sweden590 Posts
October 19 2018 13:26 GMT
#49
On October 19 2018 22:24 TrashPanda wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 22:18 Drfilip wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:40 Fango wrote:
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well.

And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off.

Where did you find your statistics? They are not what I am finding on Aligulac.
Aligulac say that, since last BlizzCon (which I specified in my post), Maru and Serral played each other at
- IEM 22 January, Serral won 2-0
- WESG 17 March, Maru won 3-0
- GSL vs the World 8 April, Serral won 1-0
That is 2 wins for Serral and 1 for Maru, 3-3 in games.

Where did you find 3 wins for Maru and only 1 win for Serral?

He probabbly didn't count the 2-0 from IEM because, as Charoisaur said above, it was played on the european server which puts Maru at a huge disadvantage

I noticed. My bad.
Random Platinum EU
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
October 19 2018 13:47 GMT
#50
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
rotta
Profile Joined December 2011
5585 Posts
October 19 2018 13:57 GMT
#51
On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.

2/3 of my favourite players in that group, gonna be maximum butt clenching from start to finish.
don't wall off against random
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
October 19 2018 14:08 GMT
#52
On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.



Yah his zvp seems super strong but sos is an absolute nightmare for anyone at blizzcon..zest has proven that he can be a nightmare as well but its hit or miss.. should be a fun group to watch.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States13970 Posts
October 19 2018 14:20 GMT
#53
On October 19 2018 23:08 DomeGetta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.



Yah his zvp seems super strong but sos is an absolute nightmare for anyone at blizzcon..zest has proven that he can be a nightmare as well but its hit or miss.. should be a fun group to watch.

Group seems simple tbh. sOs/Serral. No way Zest gets through. Especially given his blizzcon track record
Kaina + Drones Linkcro Summon Cupsie Yummy Way
byte-Curious
Profile Joined October 2018
Mexico107 Posts
October 19 2018 14:26 GMT
#54
Photo: Carlton Beener
> Beener
reeeeeeeee
IArako
Profile Joined June 2015
Germany195 Posts
October 19 2018 14:35 GMT
#55
I really like this article order please make no exceptions
Also Group B:
Serral
Heromarine
sOs
Zest
Special Tactics
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 14:52:52
October 19 2018 14:50 GMT
#56
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.
Terra1
Profile Joined June 2018
Philippines312 Posts
October 19 2018 14:52 GMT
#57
On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.


sOs is the only threat for Serral because of his unpredictable plays, then again his PvZ reminded me of the loss he had vs Scarlett (but that was before the patch change though). Let's be honest guys, Zest hasn't been good vs the best Korean Zergs. He died a lot vs Rogue, Dark, Impact too (last GSL S3 iirc). Then loses to Elazer, then Serral. Most, if not all of them, were one sided. Whatever Zest is cooking up for Blizzcon, he'd better be prepared.

On the odds of Serral winning in his group, I'd give him a 70% to advance first or second (though I wished he advances first) unless he bombs out like Stats and Neeb last year
Vs. sOs: sOs can be tricky to play against. Loved his cheesy and unorthodox plays
Vs. HeRoMaRinE: It's already obvious. HeRoMaRinE got defeated in 2 WCS events (6-0)
Vs. Zest: ZvP is Serral's strong matchup and Zest's died to a lot of Zergs throughout the year, no surprise.
Terra1
Profile Joined June 2018
Philippines312 Posts
October 19 2018 15:02 GMT
#58
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)
MrMischelito
Profile Joined February 2014
347 Posts
October 19 2018 15:18 GMT
#59
This article is missing links to his awesome games!
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 15:32:59
October 19 2018 15:31 GMT
#60
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL

In reality there are more than two regions in the world. It's not just foreigner and korean. I don't think anyone loaths towards players actually from their region. For example, everyone on here from Finland cheers for Serral (that I know of). If there were any pros from the UK I'd support them as well.

But why would I cheer for a player from Finland (for example) over a player from Korea purely for that reason?

Though it's worth noting I dislike players who get overhyped. And foreigners historically get overhyped like crazy, and in recent years have it much better than koreans of the same skill. So maybe there's a bias there.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Rodya
Profile Joined January 2018
546 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 15:40:06
October 19 2018 15:38 GMT
#61
This is not hte first time a foreigner was considered one of the favorites heading into Blizzcon. Neeb was also considered a favorite heading into 2016. Worth remembering how badly he got owned by Dark and then in 2017 got bopped by soO and lost in groups.

I don't hate foreigners: Scarlett is possibly my favorite player and I also like Reynor and Special. These players have never been overhyped and they've never had screaching fanboys that defy reason. When Scarlett gets hyped its because her results, just like the hype that Koreans get. Serral, however, is considered to be better than Classic even though Classic has had more impressive results this year (including winning a much more prestigous Korean tournament than Serral did). This causes people to root against Serral (just like people rooted against Neeb and still do to this day - poor guy).

If you love a player, don't overhype them - it's as simple as that.

p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.

User was warned for this post.
Banned for saying "zerg players are by far the biggest whiners in sc2 history" despite the fact that this forum is full of such posts about Terrans. Foreigner Elitists in control!
hexhaven
Profile Joined July 2014
Finland926 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 15:49:34
October 19 2018 15:47 GMT
#62
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


e: I was talking with Serral's dad last year after we left Anaheim, and back then he said that the only thing holding Serral back is a mental block. He predicted that if Serral were to win just one bigger offline event (tiny Finnish tournaments don't really count), he'd go on a rampage. He absolutely nailed that prediction.
WriterI shoot events. | http://www.jussi.co/esports
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
October 19 2018 15:47 GMT
#63
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 19 2018 15:49 GMT
#64
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55506 Posts
October 19 2018 16:04 GMT
#65
On October 20 2018 00:49 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(

How many GSL finals was MKP in? How many was HerO in?
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 16:09:46
October 19 2018 16:08 GMT
#66
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing.

It's not, but it's a valid point against someone if they only win in the format that's considered more volatile. And there are a lot of critisms of the GSL vs The World format. Especially the voting part (let's be honest INno, Has, Kelazur etc didn't really deserve spots).

It's not a foreigner vs korean thing either. People do the same (and rightly so) for players like Taeja and Rogue.

As far as them not taking GSL vs The World seriously, it's hard to tell. Maru said he didn't practice, but guys like Stats and Dark normally try their best in every event they play. The more relevent point is whether they took Serral seriously. INno said he didn't do much about him before they played, Dark was doing his normal "foreigners are LUL" thing (although that's probably an act).
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
rotta
Profile Joined December 2011
5585 Posts
October 19 2018 16:10 GMT
#67
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

Trolls famish unless they're fed.
don't wall off against random
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
October 19 2018 16:11 GMT
#68
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


You could argue..if you like to do so based on no factual information whatsoever..since he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did. Its well known that the tournaments between code s are much less prepared for because they dont mean nearly as much. Good arguements to say that all those players are better would be their consistent good showing in gsl. Classic 3 0d him at katowice and then went on to lose 4 0 to rogue in the final... maru 3 0d him at wesg and then played a super close 4 3 w dark...these are both tournaments with weaker but comparable fields to blizzcon (due to region lock) . Stats only failed to reach ro8 one season this year in code s and made a final... there are plenty of reasons. Region lock itself is the main reason you have people pissed off regarding foreigners. Just because i am a foreigner doesnt mean i cant see how unfair and shitty it is for the korean players. The fact that deluded individuals get on here and overhype and glorify the mediocrity of the foreign scene just pours fuel on the fire. My favorite player of all time is stephano.. he showed us that it is possible to compete with the best in a fair system. Best moment was when he showed up @ kespa and said gl hf and his opponent replied to prevent the DQ out of respect. He went on to win the game if i recall correctly. Until serral puts the big boy pants on and plays code s he wont have the same type of respect period.
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24417 Posts
October 19 2018 16:11 GMT
#69
On October 20 2018 01:04 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:49 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(

How many GSL finals was MKP in? How many was HerO in?


I'll take HerO's 5 tournament wins over Marineking's 2
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Kitai
Profile Joined June 2012
United States871 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 21:06:46
October 19 2018 16:16 GMT
#70
On October 20 2018 01:11 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:04 Elentos wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:49 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(

How many GSL finals was MKP in? How many was HerO in?


I'll take HerO's 5 tournament wins over Marineking's 2


You guys are all forgetting about Clide, the best Terran to ever touch a keyboard.
"You know, I don't care if soO got 100 second places in a row. Anyone who doesn't think that he's going to win blizzcon watching this series is a fool" - Artosis, Blizzcon 2014 soO vs TaeJa
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12129 Posts
October 19 2018 16:19 GMT
#71
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w

I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.

I saw 4 birds today, all of them being hawks, therefor every bird is a hawk.

Let's ignore the obvious generalisation fail, but I would suggest to take low sample statistics with a big grain of salw ;-)
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55506 Posts
October 19 2018 16:20 GMT
#72
On October 20 2018 01:11 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:04 Elentos wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:49 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(

How many GSL finals was MKP in? How many was HerO in?


I'll take HerO's 5 tournament wins over Marineking's 2

HerO has won 5 tournaments and made Code S playoffs twice. MKP has won 2 tournaments and made Code S playoffs 5 times. A perfect match.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
hexhaven
Profile Joined July 2014
Finland926 Posts
October 19 2018 16:27 GMT
#73
On October 20 2018 01:20 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:11 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:04 Elentos wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:49 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(

How many GSL finals was MKP in? How many was HerO in?


I'll take HerO's 5 tournament wins over Marineking's 2

HerO has won 5 tournaments and made Code S playoffs twice. MKP has won 2 tournaments and made Code S playoffs 5 times. A perfect match.


Are you saying MKP is the evil twin of TaeJa? The Mirror World version?

You take that back!
WriterI shoot events. | http://www.jussi.co/esports
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55506 Posts
October 19 2018 16:29 GMT
#74
On October 20 2018 01:27 hexhaven wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:20 Elentos wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:04 Elentos wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:49 Olli wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 hexhaven wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
p.s. don't respond to this post because I will not be engaging the serral fangirls in this thread. I'm not interested in what you're selling.


Then why are you posting?

On October 19 2018 21:53 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:28 TrashPanda wrote:
On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:
On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.


soO

soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"

Marineking


Oh, come on!


Cites Marineking but not LiquidHerO. Time for another article ;(

How many GSL finals was MKP in? How many was HerO in?


I'll take HerO's 5 tournament wins over Marineking's 2

HerO has won 5 tournaments and made Code S playoffs twice. MKP has won 2 tournaments and made Code S playoffs 5 times. A perfect match.


Are you saying MKP is the evil twin of TaeJa? The Mirror World version?

You take that back!

After all these years it turns out PirateTerran wasn't TaeJa after all...
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
October 19 2018 16:47 GMT
#75
MKP most entertaining terran of WoL, the memories

Zest should be easy so Serral is probably fine but the first seed should be a match with $0$ trolling a blizzcon win
WriterMaru
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 16:55:26
October 19 2018 16:54 GMT
#76
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.
niya90s
Profile Blog Joined February 2016
Norway29 Posts
October 19 2018 17:00 GMT
#77
Great read.
I'm looking forward to Blizzcon to see if Serral can keep up with the pressure that's been put on him.
คll เร ๏ภє, ๒ยt ץ๏ย'гє ยภเợยє. - Soundcloud.com/niya90s
fLyiNgDroNe
Profile Joined September 2005
Belgium3996 Posts
October 19 2018 17:05 GMT
#78
imo the blizzcon is all about who can stay "on form" given there are no real tournaments now for quite some time.
Drone is a way of living
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 17:19:06
October 19 2018 17:17 GMT
#79
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
11cc
Profile Joined May 2008
Finland561 Posts
October 19 2018 17:42 GMT
#80
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55506 Posts
October 19 2018 17:48 GMT
#81
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

The higher rounds of GSL are still far apart from WCS. But Ro32 Code S is nowhere near what it used to be what with there only being about 35 Korean pros. But it's an image people have a hard time getting out of their heads.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 17:50:26
October 19 2018 17:49 GMT
#82
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)



- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

Agreed. But I also don't see any good argument that Serral is better than those 4.
He won 1 tournament with koreans. Rogue, Stats, Classic all did the same this year.
He won 4 WCS seasons. put those 4 in a WCS and it's highly likely they'd win 4 as well. So why would Serral be favored against them?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
October 19 2018 17:54 GMT
#83
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 18:08:55
October 19 2018 17:56 GMT
#84
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did. EDIT: Apologies it was youngjiddle you said this not you.

"lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol)"

Maybe you didn't mean to, but it sounded to me like you were opposing the idea of GSL being "in the big leagues". And you used two of the biggest upsets ever to make an example of that.

My point was that Serral does not compete in the most difficult field. You seem to agree with this idea but keep dodging around it.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
October 19 2018 17:59 GMT
#85
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 18:01:21
October 19 2018 18:00 GMT
#86
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

Are you actually disagreeing with anything I said or not? All I said was that GSL is a tougher beast than WCS. And that fact alone means Serral isn't playing in the toughest field.

I never said Serral has to play in GSL, or that he isn't the best in the world until he wins it, or whatever bullshit people seem to think I did. Literally all I'm saying is that GSL > WCS. If you think otherwise I'd love to hear it.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55506 Posts
October 19 2018 18:01 GMT
#87
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
Who argued that?

On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
You did.

On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol).

I dunno Kev
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
October 19 2018 18:02 GMT
#88
On October 20 2018 01:19 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:
On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:
On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:
On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase.

Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans).

Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_-
Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world.

On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year.

Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom.

You're babbling.

On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means?

Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome.

Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction)

Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly.

You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries.

Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment.

I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon.

I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.

Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.

So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.

Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark

Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players

Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).

I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.

If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.

Hi Shuffleblade,

Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.

Sorry if that came off condescending.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.

Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.

Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.

Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler +
This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w

I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.

I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).

Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.

I saw 4 birds today, all of them being hawks, therefor every bird is a hawk.

Let's ignore the obvious generalisation fail, but I would suggest to take low sample statistics with a big grain of salw ;-)

not to mention he cherry-picked his "statistics" to fit his agenda.
Look only at offline-matches and suddenly Maru has the better winrate.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
11cc
Profile Joined May 2008
Finland561 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 18:10:53
October 19 2018 18:07 GMT
#89
On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did.

"lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol)"

Maybe you didn't mean to, but it sounded to me like you were opposing the idea of GSL being "in the big leagues". And you used two of the biggest upsets ever to make an example of that.

My point was that Serral does not compete in the most difficult field. You seem to agree with this idea but keep dodging around it.

I'm not the guy who said that (sorry if I was butting in), but that quote seems fine to me. Those upsets don't prove that WCS is equal to GSL, but that good WCS players are atleast somewhat competitive in the GSL.
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 18:17:27
October 19 2018 18:12 GMT
#90
On October 20 2018 03:07 11cc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did.

"lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol)"

Maybe you didn't mean to, but it sounded to me like you were opposing the idea of GSL being "in the big leagues". And you used two of the biggest upsets ever to make an example of that.

My point was that Serral does not compete in the most difficult field. You seem to agree with this idea but keep dodging around it.

I'm not the guy who said that (sorry if I was butting in), but that quote seems fine to me. Those upsets don't prove that WCS is equal to GSL, but that good WCS players are also atleast somewhat competitive in the GSL.

Yh sorry about that lol.

I agree that good WCS players are competitive in GSL. I'm just trying to say that GSL is the tougher league. I didn't even say to what extent I think it is (I'm not really sure tbh). Where WCS is compared to GSL would be an interesting discussion.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
October 19 2018 18:30 GMT
#91
On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did. EDIT: Apologies it was youngjiddle you said this not you.


No I didn't. The conversation wasn't about GSL having the best players.. it was about the format which gsl was. The format of GSL does not make it any hard or skill intensive than a weekend/weeklong tournement just because players have more time in between matches.

In fact, I would argue a week long tournament is MUCH harder, and requires more skill than a GSL, match every week format. On the fly adjustments, memory of build orders, memory of players... all skills that put sole responsibility on the player's skills and knowledge, not some team they can go to for advice.
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
October 19 2018 18:39 GMT
#92
On October 20 2018 03:30 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did. EDIT: Apologies it was youngjiddle you said this not you.


No I didn't. The conversation wasn't about GSL having the best players.. it was about the format which gsl was. The format of GSL does not make it any hard or skill intensive than a weekend/weeklong tournement just because players have more time in between matches.

In fact, I would argue a week long tournament is MUCH harder, and requires more skill than a GSL, match every week format. On the fly adjustments, memory of build orders, memory of players... all skills that put sole responsibility on the player's skills and knowledge, not some team they can go to for advice.



The whole arguement was the shock and awe that people call wcs the minor leagues relative to code s. The format is just one minor reason that its harder..since all of your matches essentially will be well prepared for by your opponent. The main and SUPER obvious reason its harder is the players. Your counter was "woahwoah neeb and scarlett both made the playoffs hows it so hard". You sold the point for the opposition of your arguement right there tho. Neeb and scarlett are probably the 2nd and 3rd 4th w lambo best foreigners...and out of a shit load of tries this was their best result in code s. So to win wcs you have to worry about 3 to 4 people who managed to mostly fail to do anything outside of 1 playoff run each ij code s. Thats what makes it the minor leagues
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 18:44:10
October 19 2018 18:41 GMT
#93
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
I don't hate foreigners: Scarlett is possibly my favorite player and I also like Reynor and Special. These players have never been overhyped and they've never had screaching fanboys that defy reason.


On August 14 2018 11:12 Rodya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2018 01:57 yht9657 wrote:
Can't wait for Impact to crush some foreign dreams, guy's just Way too underrated. If he stops his offline choking record he may even beat Maru on a good day.

Yeah Impact is Way underrated and Reynor is Way overhyped. Reynor went 2-2 versus Classic and gets beat up at foreigner events consistently. I'M Sorry guys but his expected placement in this group is fourth. I could see him being Neeb though, but that's a lot different than beating Impact.]


On August 15 2018 02:50 Rodya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 14 2018 14:17 Jeremiah1 wrote:
But im not underestimating Impact at all, Just because a vet. is good doesnt mean Reynor doesnt have a chance. Infact if anything I think we will see Impatch vs Reynor twice.

You are saying that Reynor is likely to win because he went 2-2 versus Classic. Reynor gets continually owned at foreigner events. He has no results.


On August 11 2018 21:30 Rodya wrote:
Reynor gets trashed at events against foreigners without fail, Zest makes GSL finals.

The foreigner bias of some of you is so strong that it makes me laugh in real life.


shoutout to Torrefy
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
nanaoei
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
3358 Posts
October 19 2018 18:46 GMT
#94
shit load of tries being the few tries they get per year? probably for this last year maximum?
travelling to korea is a big and brave commitment on their part, they have to skip some of the regional events to do so,
i believe sasha paid in points (ultimately contributing to her absence from blizzcon this year) to do so.
*@boesthius' FF7 nostalgia stream bomb* "we should work on a 'Final Progamer' fangame»whitera can be a protagonist---lastlie: "we save world and then defense it"
franzji
Profile Joined September 2013
United States581 Posts
October 19 2018 18:48 GMT
#95
On October 20 2018 03:41 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 00:38 Rodya wrote:
I don't hate foreigners: Scarlett is possibly my favorite player and I also like Reynor and Special. These players have never been overhyped and they've never had screaching fanboys that defy reason.


Show nested quote +
On August 14 2018 11:12 Rodya wrote:
On August 14 2018 01:57 yht9657 wrote:
Can't wait for Impact to crush some foreign dreams, guy's just Way too underrated. If he stops his offline choking record he may even beat Maru on a good day.

Yeah Impact is Way underrated and Reynor is Way overhyped. Reynor went 2-2 versus Classic and gets beat up at foreigner events consistently. I'M Sorry guys but his expected placement in this group is fourth. I could see him being Neeb though, but that's a lot different than beating Impact.]


Show nested quote +
On August 15 2018 02:50 Rodya wrote:
On August 14 2018 14:17 Jeremiah1 wrote:
But im not underestimating Impact at all, Just because a vet. is good doesnt mean Reynor doesnt have a chance. Infact if anything I think we will see Impatch vs Reynor twice.

You are saying that Reynor is likely to win because he went 2-2 versus Classic. Reynor gets continually owned at foreigner events. He has no results.


Show nested quote +
On August 11 2018 21:30 Rodya wrote:
Reynor gets trashed at events against foreigners without fail, Zest makes GSL finals.

The foreigner bias of some of you is so strong that it makes me laugh in real life.


shoutout to Torrefy


+1
DomeGetta
Profile Joined February 2012
480 Posts
October 19 2018 18:57 GMT
#96
On October 20 2018 03:46 nanaoei wrote:
shit load of tries being the few tries they get per year? probably for this last year maximum?
travelling to korea is a big and brave commitment on their part, they have to skip some of the regional events to do so,
i believe sasha paid in points (ultimately contributing to her absence from blizzcon this year) to do so.



Scarlett has made a ton of attempts. Not sure how many neeb has...or major or noregret or zanster etc..point is in modern time none of them proved to be a ro16 mainstay. She did and it is a big leap to go stay in korea i understand that. Have to give a ton of respect to people who knowingly play a harder field to get better. It sucks she didnt make blizzcon. Just like it sucks that soo and innovation and solar and gumiho (all proven beasts from code s) didnt make it. Id put money on her chances at blizzcon above the majority of players who did qualify from wcs (obviously the same for the rest of the players i mentioned).
Penev
Profile Joined October 2012
28464 Posts
October 19 2018 19:45 GMT
#97
We don't have enough data to know for sure if Serral can consistently hang with the best Koreans but with what he has shown us this year.. Let's just say this is the first time I wouldn't be shocked if a foreigner would win blizzcon. Serral that is. Obviously.

Let it rain gifs
I Protoss winner, could it be?
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-19 20:10:52
October 19 2018 20:08 GMT
#98
On October 20 2018 03:30 youngjiddle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did. EDIT: Apologies it was youngjiddle you said this not you.


No I didn't. The conversation wasn't about GSL having the best players.. it was about the format which gsl was. The format of GSL does not make it any hard or skill intensive than a weekend/weeklong tournement just because players have more time in between matches.

In fact, I would argue a week long tournament is MUCH harder, and requires more skill than a GSL, match every week format. On the fly adjustments, memory of build orders, memory of players... all skills that put sole responsibility on the player's skills and knowledge, not some team they can go to for advice.

The conversation was about someone refering to WCS as "minor leagues" and Serral not playing in the "the big leagues". And some discussion of whether he's better than TY, Rogue, Stats, Classic etc. So I don't think it was purely about format.

And you really think weekenders are more skill intensive than starleagues? I mean you can believe whatever you want, but I'm not gonna take you seriously if you ignore the fact that preperation reduces volatility and increases of general skill level of matches.

There are many players who do well almost exclusively in weekenders (sOs, Taeja, Rogue), however almost every player that does amazing in starleagues can also win weekenders (INno, Zest, Mvp, soO). Maru is the only obvious exception there.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Nakajin
Profile Blog Joined September 2014
Canada8988 Posts
October 19 2018 20:40 GMT
#99
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game


"Blizzard killed the game with region locking, it's a dead game Kespa player would have destroyed Serral easy"
Also jet lag, zerg op and weekender don't matter.
With that said I don't think he will win either but lets wait and see.
Writerhttp://i.imgur.com/9p6ufcB.jpg
Kurao
Profile Joined April 2018
215 Posts
October 19 2018 21:02 GMT
#100
Even though I'm a Korean fanboy in most cases, gotta cheer for the home team in this instance, let's go Joona!
Xamo
Profile Joined April 2012
Spain877 Posts
October 19 2018 21:13 GMT
#101
On October 19 2018 23:20 Cricketer12 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2018 23:08 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 19 2018 22:47 Geo.Rion wrote:
Im so anxious about Serral s group stage. I mean he has a huge red X mark on his head and everyone aspires to be the one who finally breaks his winning streak. And in a bo3 format group stage it doesnt take that much to do it. That group is not easy by any means.



Yah his zvp seems super strong but sos is an absolute nightmare for anyone at blizzcon..zest has proven that he can be a nightmare as well but its hit or miss.. should be a fun group to watch.

Group seems simple tbh. sOs/Serral. No way Zest gets through. Especially given his blizzcon track record


I have myself thought “No way Zest gets through” in each round of every GSL this year. He has proven me wrong uncomfortably often...
My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.
Oroch
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium143 Posts
October 19 2018 21:35 GMT
#102
Nice article.

Funny to ready that victory at blizzcons overshadows all victories whereas for Serral and Maru it would be Losing at Blizzcon that would overshadow all victories :b
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
October 19 2018 21:40 GMT
#103
On October 20 2018 05:08 Fango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 03:30 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:56 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:42 11cc wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.


Who argued that? To make a hyperbole in the other direction, it annoys me that some Korean elitists seem to think
that just participating in GSL makes you WCS champion material. GSL is harder than WCS, sure but they're not lightyears apart.

You did. EDIT: Apologies it was youngjiddle you said this not you.


No I didn't. The conversation wasn't about GSL having the best players.. it was about the format which gsl was. The format of GSL does not make it any hard or skill intensive than a weekend/weeklong tournement just because players have more time in between matches.

In fact, I would argue a week long tournament is MUCH harder, and requires more skill than a GSL, match every week format. On the fly adjustments, memory of build orders, memory of players... all skills that put sole responsibility on the player's skills and knowledge, not some team they can go to for advice.

The conversation was about someone refering to WCS as "minor leagues" and Serral not playing in the "the big leagues". And some discussion of whether he's better than TY, Rogue, Stats, Classic etc. So I don't think it was purely about format.

And you really think weekenders are more skill intensive than starleagues? I mean you can believe whatever you want, but I'm not gonna take you seriously if you ignore the fact that preperation reduces volatility and increases of general skill level of matches.

There are many players who do well almost exclusively in weekenders (sOs, Taeja, Rogue), however almost every player that does amazing in starleagues can also win weekenders (INno, Zest, Mvp, soO). Maru is the only obvious exception there.


I have to agree with your statement regarding starleagues requiring more skill than weekenders. As an admitted bigger fan of the foreign scene than the Korean scene, I think it's really hard to deny that starleagues allow for the most skill potential out of the 2 general formats being discussed without using some serious mental gymnastics.

One could argue that weekenders require players to excel in different categories that starleagues don't, like endurance and playing well in sub-optimal conditions, but I don't think those skills come anywhere close to the amount of skill that goes into even just the preparation factor of the starleague format. In the Starleague format, you have a week to sometimes 2 weeks to prepare for a match which allows a player to theorycraft not only an entire match up, but also an entire player.

This allows builds to be more developed and nuanced than a weekender could ever hope for because the builds, strategies, and counters used have been refined for not only a specific match up but also a specific player. You have to determine the best ways to combat a player's favorite strategies on a particular map, the best ways to combat how said player might combat your strategies that you prepared specifically for them, how to best hide your builds based on your opponent's specific scouting patterns, how to change up your scouting patterns to best avoid getting your scouting denied, and so much more. A weekender just can't compare with that level of theorycrafting and the skill that goes into it, and I have hardly scratched the surface of this aspect of the starleague format in my very simplified summary of it in this comment. Starleagues just have more skill potential than a weekender does.

That's not to say that weekenders don't require a significant amount of skill to compete in and win, but it does help explain why so many people see the GSL as the most prestigious tournament in the world beyond the "we like Koreans" Straw Man that so many like to perpetuate.
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
Argonauta
Profile Joined July 2016
Spain4902 Posts
October 19 2018 22:18 GMT
#104
you just describe why losing proleague was a major issue of the starcraft scene, even in 2016 watching sniper builds was so much fun
Rogue | Maru | Scarlett | Trap
TL+ Member
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
October 20 2018 00:16 GMT
#105
On October 20 2018 07:18 Argonauta wrote:
you just describe why losing proleague was a major issue of the starcraft scene, even in 2016 watching sniper builds was so much fun


Even proleague's environment was entirely unique because players prepared for one game against one opponent on one map usually. Some very creative one and done builds showed up in proleague.
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 08:13:52
October 20 2018 08:12 GMT
#106
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
MockHamill
Profile Joined March 2010
Sweden1798 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 08:30:05
October 20 2018 08:25 GMT
#107
I would argue that weekend tournaments is a better judge of your overall skill compared to tournament where you can prepare for your opponent for 2 weeks.

The preparation phase can be done by your coach, your team or other players - identifying things to exploit in your opponents builds. This gives lesser players with better support an unfair advantage over better players with lesser support.

In an weekend tournament it is only your own skill that determines the outcome.

Winning against an opponent without any special preparation is more impressive than winning over an opponent that you have prepared extensively for.
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
October 20 2018 08:47 GMT
#108
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Of course that’s unprecedented, wanna know why?
Region lock.

It’s not like he entered GSL.
WriterMaru
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
October 20 2018 09:19 GMT
#109
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
fLyiNgDroNe
Profile Joined September 2005
Belgium3996 Posts
October 20 2018 09:57 GMT
#110
its great to see how some TLnet residents came to this specific thread for the one purpose only - shit on Serral. Like there is/was not enough other threads where this has been done already a million times.
Thanks a lot to the writers for the awesome write-up tho.
Drone is a way of living
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 13:20:05
October 20 2018 13:03 GMT
#111
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Well thank you for being such a perfect illustration of my point.

The last time Serral lost a series was in march, as you so cleverly pointed out. Blizzcon is pretty much the last premier tournament this season, so that means if Serral would win the finals in November than he would have went undefeated starting from march 2018 till the end of the season, that is november/december. Tehnically he might still enter a smaller tournament in december and lose, so fine, let s say 8 months?
Happy? no, ofcourse not, and you re never gonna be.
And btw im not saying im sure Serral is gonna win, or he s the nr1 favorite to win it. But IF he does win...
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 13:23:15
October 20 2018 13:22 GMT
#112
On October 20 2018 22:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
[quote]

I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Well thank you for being such a perfect illustration of my point.

The last time Serral lost a series was in march, as you so cleverly pointed out. Blizzcon is pretty much the last premier tournament this season, so that means if Serral would win the finals in November than he would have went undefeated starting from march 2018 till the end of the season, that is november/december. Tehnically he might still enter a smaller tournament in december and lose, so fine, let s say 8 months?
Happy? no, ofcourse not, and you re never gonna be.

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS

you said "winning every single tournament for 9 months straight" includes 4 WCS wins so I assumed you started with the first WCS win in January with the streak.
If you say incorrect statements I will call you out for it, you don't have to make up alternative facts to hype up Serral.

And to your point that it would be the most impressive performance ever... that's a very bold claim in a year where there has only been 1 GSL winner - I think you're the one doing mental gymnastics here.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
October 20 2018 13:35 GMT
#113
Plus who knows what would have happened if everyone could participate in WCS events.

I think Serral is great and I’d put him as a favorite to win BlizzCon since he is in top form and Zerg performs well atm, but the hype is a bit too much for some people.
WriterMaru
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 14:54:05
October 20 2018 14:52 GMT
#114
On October 20 2018 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 22:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
[quote]

Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Well thank you for being such a perfect illustration of my point.

The last time Serral lost a series was in march, as you so cleverly pointed out. Blizzcon is pretty much the last premier tournament this season, so that means if Serral would win the finals in November than he would have went undefeated starting from march 2018 till the end of the season, that is november/december. Tehnically he might still enter a smaller tournament in december and lose, so fine, let s say 8 months?
Happy? no, ofcourse not, and you re never gonna be.

Show nested quote +
winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS

you said "winning every single tournament for 9 months straight" includes 4 WCS wins so I assumed you started with the first WCS win in January with the streak.
If you say incorrect statements I will call you out for it, you don't have to make up alternative facts to hype up Serral.

And to your point that it would be the most impressive performance ever... that's a very bold claim in a year where there has only been 1 GSL winner - I think you're the one doing mental gymnastics here.

You re completely and utterly beyond hope. Nitpick all you want, there hasnt been a single player with this long a winstreak, and if Serral wins in Novemer, it will be the best performance ever in the history of SC2. You, and the 3 others here who keep discrediting him will do it regardless of circumstances.

Serral could switch to random, go to korea, win the next GSL from a laptop, and you would still find a way to complain how his performance is lackluster since he had an easy bracket and the truly skilled Korean players were slumping or not playing anymore, so his GSL win doesnt count as much as from previous seasons
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 15:42:29
October 20 2018 15:22 GMT
#115
On October 20 2018 23:52 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 22:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
[quote]

he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Well thank you for being such a perfect illustration of my point.

The last time Serral lost a series was in march, as you so cleverly pointed out. Blizzcon is pretty much the last premier tournament this season, so that means if Serral would win the finals in November than he would have went undefeated starting from march 2018 till the end of the season, that is november/december. Tehnically he might still enter a smaller tournament in december and lose, so fine, let s say 8 months?
Happy? no, ofcourse not, and you re never gonna be.

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS

you said "winning every single tournament for 9 months straight" includes 4 WCS wins so I assumed you started with the first WCS win in January with the streak.
If you say incorrect statements I will call you out for it, you don't have to make up alternative facts to hype up Serral.

And to your point that it would be the most impressive performance ever... that's a very bold claim in a year where there has only been 1 GSL winner - I think you're the one doing mental gymnastics here.

You re completely and utterly beyond hope. Nitpick all you want, there hasnt been a single player with this long a winstreak, and if Serral wins in Novemer, it will be the best performance ever in the history of SC2. You, and the 3 others here who keep discrediting him will do it regardless of circumstances.

Serral could switch to random, go to korea, win the next GSL from a laptop, and you would still find a way to complain how his performance is lackluster since he had an easy bracket and the truly skilled Korean players were slumping or not playing anymore, so his GSL win doesnt count as much as from previous seasons


If he had to play vs the absolute top of the competition in every tournament in this run there would be no doubt at all. He didn't have to though. Is it still a great feat? Absolutely, but you saying anyone who disagrees has to be anti serral biased to come to the conclusion that it might not be the sickest run ever, seems fairly biased to me as well
This is similar to the taeja argument (though at least he had to battle some top pros), but yes the player field of the tournament you win actually matters a lot to evaluate the importance of said tournament and thus how impressive it is to win the tournament. WCS tournaments are not at the same prestige lvl compared to ones where koreans can compete in.
Serral would have won two tournaments with korean participation if he wins blizzcon, certainly great and enough to cement him as a top player (he might be already), but your "best run ever" statement would still be a hyperbole or at least not be obviously true.
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
October 20 2018 15:31 GMT
#116
On October 20 2018 23:52 Geo.Rion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 22:22 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 22:03 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
[quote]

he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Well thank you for being such a perfect illustration of my point.

The last time Serral lost a series was in march, as you so cleverly pointed out. Blizzcon is pretty much the last premier tournament this season, so that means if Serral would win the finals in November than he would have went undefeated starting from march 2018 till the end of the season, that is november/december. Tehnically he might still enter a smaller tournament in december and lose, so fine, let s say 8 months?
Happy? no, ofcourse not, and you re never gonna be.

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS

you said "winning every single tournament for 9 months straight" includes 4 WCS wins so I assumed you started with the first WCS win in January with the streak.
If you say incorrect statements I will call you out for it, you don't have to make up alternative facts to hype up Serral.

And to your point that it would be the most impressive performance ever... that's a very bold claim in a year where there has only been 1 GSL winner - I think you're the one doing mental gymnastics here.

if Serral wins in Novemer, it will be the best performance ever in the history of SC2. You, and the 3 others here who keep discrediting him will do it regardless of circumstances.

You can stop acting like everyone agrees with you when that's not the case.

Most people who follow the game closely realize that GSL is the highest form of competition and worth more than any other tournament win.
You and the 2 others who think WCS is as prestigious as GSL can keep claiming Serral is the best ever but 99% of people will disagree with you. (See? I can do the same)
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
October 20 2018 16:07 GMT
#117
On October 20 2018 17:25 MockHamill wrote:
I would argue that weekend tournaments is a better judge of your overall skill compared to tournament where you can prepare for your opponent for 2 weeks.


How do explain why almost every legendary starleague player has also done extremly well in weekenders, but there are many players who can win weekenders but fail in starleagues?

Preperation gives the better players the advantage because they have the skill to study and engineer special builds for each opponent. It's harder to win GSL if you have any holes in your play, because opponents will find and exploit them. It also requires players to be consistant over weeks/months, instead of being on fire for 2 days and earning a trophy because of it.

Just think, can you imagine Has making the final of WCS Valencia if players had a week to prepare for each match?
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
Soularion
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Canada2764 Posts
October 20 2018 19:39 GMT
#118
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
On October 19 2018 23:50 youngjiddle wrote:
Korean fanboys will forever be cheering against foreigners.

There is some weird, psychology of self loathing people have towards their own region's players here on TL, maybe because people have become disappointed by foreigners lose to Koreans so many times. Maybe because they are tired of people saying "we'll beat the Koreans this time" and it never happens.

Serral will prove everyone wrong, hopefully. Thank you, region lock.


I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Not sure if you did the math but WESG was in March, meaning that if he wins Blizzcon he'd have won every event for ~9 months straight. Presuming there's no big event in December.
Writermaru pls
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-20 23:32:37
October 20 2018 23:31 GMT
#119
On October 21 2018 04:39 Soularion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:02 Terra1 wrote:
[quote]

I hope you're right. I want to believe that Serral can do it, at least reach the semis of Blizzcon

This is just what I think and see from the comments these fanboys post though but the fanboys want some factors here to tell that Serral can win vs the best Koreans:

-It should be in the GSL tournament, to show that even Serral will have a hard time to win vs them, especially in their good forms
-Weekend tournaments like GSL vs the World isn't counted because most of the players there didn't took the tournament seriously (I found it strange because Dark, who's crushing foreigners except for Elazer last year, got defeated by Serral 3-1, then by Innovation, both of them are either not serious or out of form). They want a fair advantage for each player
-4x WCS championship wins aren't as strong as 3x GSL championships because the intensity of GSL is far higher than WCS

This is why we see some comments in the power rank are not impressed with Serral being at #2 and they rate TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic a bit higher than Serral.

Serral can defeat Koreans but not all of the best. He did beat Classic and Zest (though both have sucky PvZs), Rogue and Impact (close I think in IEM)


Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Not sure if you did the math but WESG was in March, meaning that if he wins Blizzcon he'd have won every event for ~9 months straight. Presuming there's no big event in December.

but that streak includes 3 WCS wins, not 4 like he claimed. WCS Leipzig was in January.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Fango
Profile Joined July 2016
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-21 00:22:23
October 21 2018 00:15 GMT
#120
On October 21 2018 08:31 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2018 04:39 Soularion wrote:
On October 20 2018 18:19 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 17:12 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:59 Charoisaur wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:54 Geo.Rion wrote:
On October 20 2018 02:17 Fango wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:54 youngjiddle wrote:
On October 20 2018 01:11 DomeGetta wrote:
On October 20 2018 00:47 youngjiddle wrote:
[quote]

Those arguments don't make much sense though.

- Blaming the format is not an excuse for losing. If you're the best you should be able to win in a 1v1 game. Koreans used to come overseas and destroy in weekend tournaments. So now all the sudden Serral's wins don't mean as much because he played a week long tournament in Korea? So if serral failed at GSL vs the world, could I have blamed "jetlag" and "the format"? nah. no johns.

If you want to go to homestory and say hey, I lost because I think the format of playing on the next balance patch favored protoss at the time, then fine, that's completely different. I'm tired of people saying some prepared match format is the ONLY and TRUE way to determine someone's skill in the game.

- You could argue that Serral would be even better in the gsl style tournament. He plays a reactionary style extremely well, not a weird style that might sneak a weekend win. He could adjust to whatever weird builds are prepared against him.

- I don't see any good argument to say that those four players TY, Rogue, Stats and Classic are better than better than Serral. There just isn't enough data to show that GSL vs the world was a fluke, to say that Serral's WCS wins mean nothing, to say that serral would lose to them, ect.

- lastly, saying gsl players didn't take GSL vs the world "seriously" is korean fanboys making an embarrassing excuse for the poor performance of their favorite korean players vs. the one foreigner who actual won some games. You don't get to say what the korean's were thinking, that's a load of BS.


he chose to stay in the minor leagues instead of manning up in the real gsl like a bunch of other "less hype" foreigners did.


lmao. you claim gsl is the big leagues when scarlett gets ro8 and neeb goes to the semifinals and almost to go 3-1 up above TY (until neeb tilted lol). and you claim the gsl format is less volatile. The volatile group format gsl uses with bo3s is what got scarlett and reynor their good gsl runs.

maybe instead of bashing serral for not wanting to play in GSL maybe realize that he doesn't want to live away from home for months? screw off with this "manning up" crap, that's pretty rude.

Scarlett went deep in GSL once in (I believe) 7 consecutive attempts. And that was around the time she won IEM Pyeongchang so was actually really good.

You can list as many upsets in GSL as you want, but you can't argue that it isn't the superior league in terms of skill, and that starleague format isn't a different animal to face. No one's saying Serral has to play there, he can do what he wants. But as long as he doesn't you have to admit he isn't playing in the hardest field.

I really want Serral to win Blizzcon so I can continue to read the mental gymnastics of TLers trying to undermine what would have been the best performance of any sc2 player in the history of the game

winning blizzcon would be the best performance of any sc2 player ever!?

winning every single tournament you enter without dropping a series for 9 moths straight, including 4 WCS, a Korean event then topping it off with winning the biggest tournament of the year, yes, that would be unprecedented and the best performance in SC2 history. And 99.99% of people would agree with that, but there are gonna be like 5-6 TL members explaining that "achttthuallly, Serral s performance is not that impressive if you take into consideration...." Im looking forward for that

Serral won IEM Katowice and WESG? Wow that's impressive

Not sure if you did the math but WESG was in March, meaning that if he wins Blizzcon he'd have won every event for ~9 months straight. Presuming there's no big event in December.

but that streak includes 3 WCS wins, not 4 like he claimed. WCS Leipzig was in January.

That's just being nitpickey to be fair. The idea of him winning every event he entered for 9 months straight is more of the point than 4>3 WCS.

Of course the critism there is that during those 9 months he only entered 1-2 events with koreans/other top 10 players in.
Zest, sOs, PartinG, Dark, and Maru are the real champs. ROOT_herO is overrated. Snute, Serral, and Scarlett are the foreigner GOATs
SSNYC77
Profile Blog Joined September 2018
43 Posts
October 21 2018 03:44 GMT
#121
If Serral were to lose at Blizzcon it will have no more of an impact on his legacy than Innovation/Life/MVP losing at Blizzcon. Yes it would be nice to get closure on the whole Maru-Serral thing, but a year long dominance by either of them is way more important than a single event, no matter the prize money.
Sakat
Profile Blog Joined October 2014
Croatia1599 Posts
October 21 2018 06:30 GMT
#122
The Streak is over. Neeb 3-0 Serral yesterday. Bodes well for foreign SC at Blizzcon I think
My boy Ptak defeated two GSL champions!
Serimek
Profile Joined August 2011
France2274 Posts
October 21 2018 11:56 GMT
#123
On October 21 2018 15:30 Sakat wrote:
The Streak is over. Neeb 3-0 Serral yesterday. Bodes well for foreign SC at Blizzcon I think


How were the game? Was it a case of hidding builds with $o$ and Zest in mind?
SC2 is the best game to watch and was the best to play before I grew old and slow...
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55506 Posts
October 21 2018 12:49 GMT
#124
On October 21 2018 20:56 Serimek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2018 15:30 Sakat wrote:
The Streak is over. Neeb 3-0 Serral yesterday. Bodes well for foreign SC at Blizzcon I think


How were the game? Was it a case of hidding builds with $o$ and Zest in mind?

Let's be honest, what builds would he possibly be hiding? It's not like Zerg has a million options to begin with. But the best way to play against both Zest and sOs is to play against what they're doing, not try to do your own thing no matter what.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Serimek
Profile Joined August 2011
France2274 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-10-21 12:57:46
October 21 2018 12:57 GMT
#125
On October 21 2018 21:49 Elentos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2018 20:56 Serimek wrote:
On October 21 2018 15:30 Sakat wrote:
The Streak is over. Neeb 3-0 Serral yesterday. Bodes well for foreign SC at Blizzcon I think


How were the game? Was it a case of hidding builds with $o$ and Zest in mind?

Let's be honest, what builds would he possibly be hiding? It's not like Zerg has a million options to begin with. But the best way to play against both Zest and sOs is to play against what they're doing, not try to do your own thing no matter what.


I was thinking maybe three all-ins or something. For the rest, I do agree.
SC2 is the best game to watch and was the best to play before I grew old and slow...
Poopi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France12770 Posts
October 21 2018 13:06 GMT
#126
On October 21 2018 20:56 Serimek wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 21 2018 15:30 Sakat wrote:
The Streak is over. Neeb 3-0 Serral yesterday. Bodes well for foreign SC at Blizzcon I think


How were the game? Was it a case of hidding builds with $o$ and Zest in mind?

Totally.
Not hiding builds in particular but playing like he didn’t care much, not being as diligent with scouting as usual for example.
WriterMaru
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
October 21 2018 14:09 GMT
#127
On October 21 2018 15:30 Sakat wrote:
The Streak is over. Neeb 3-0 Serral yesterday. Bodes well for foreign SC at Blizzcon I think

well, i guess i had it coming, i take full responsibility for this result :D
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
hexhaven
Profile Joined July 2014
Finland926 Posts
October 23 2018 11:35 GMT
#128
The ENCE flair is real!
WriterI shoot events. | http://www.jussi.co/esports
Mun_Su
Profile Joined December 2012
France2063 Posts
November 04 2018 10:23 GMT
#129
It seems that the 0.3 loss to neeb didn't mean anything
INno <3 - TY - Maru - Taeja - Rain <3 - Classic <3 - Stephano <3 - soO <3 - Soulkey - Dark - SERRAL =O / END REGION LOCK
Curufinwe Feanor
Profile Joined August 2012
Brazil91 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-06-18 16:58:30
June 18 2023 16:36 GMT
#130
Just a simple time tunnel jump to see how SCII wolrd evolved since then...
Aure Entüluva
TossHeroes
Profile Joined February 2022
281 Posts
June 19 2023 03:58 GMT
#131
On June 19 2023 01:36 Curufinwe Feanor wrote:
Just a simple time tunnel jump to see how SCII wolrd evolved since then...


Beginning of the GOAT run
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland24644 Posts
June 19 2023 09:22 GMT
#132
Interesting blast from the past to before Serral fully attained his final form!
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
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