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he will win the hole god damn thing. save this comment
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On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting.
Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense.
So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree.
Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players)
Serral 3-3 Maru
Serral 1-2 TY
Serral 3-4 Classic
Serral 4-3 Stats
Serral 5-1 Zest
Serral 2-2 Rogue
Serral 3-6 Dark
Serral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players
Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac).
I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners.
If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.
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Canada8991 Posts
I think we will have a very good idea of how Blizcon will go for him after the group stage. As much as people want to say he is cool under pressure you can clearly see that he sometime gets a bit fluster when he is on big stages and he's entering Blizzcon the one with by far the most to lose.
If he's able to play his best I see him at least in the semi but he could also bomb out in group.
Edit: Also for the previous post Serral this year has a winning record against every Korean he faced at Blizzcon except Classic (-1) and Maru (0) with a +5 result overall, altough the sample is quite small.
His match against TY date from 2014, and the 0-3 against Dark (and a 2-1 vs Zest) came at the start of 2017 moments where Serral wasn't consider by anyone a world class performer.
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He's up against sOs first. Poor guy
should take out Zest though, he always flames out at Blizzcon.
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On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts.
Hi Shuffleblade,
Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you.
Sorry if that came off condescending.
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On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending.
Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake.
Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake.
Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.
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Serral can make it out of his group. The only threat that can stand in his way is sOs. Zest, with his PvZ being his main problem, I doubt he can do it. Let's be honest, he's one of the Tosses who's bad with the best Zerg players today, lost to Korean and foreign Zergs in some tournaments. He's able to win, some games vs Zerg but not in this Blizzcon.
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these articles seem to fanboy the 'foreign' players over the 'korean' players. maybe to hype blizzcon. but regardless good read, im sure it would be great regardless who wins, hope we see some close games from all contestants.
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If you look at his matches Serral is world class at every aspect of the game. He has no weakness.
The only player that rivals him is Maru.
That said, in a single tournament you need both skill and luck.
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On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.
Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread.
Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182).
If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get:
7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games.
Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games.
+ Show Spoiler + This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w
I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon.
Those are facts.
Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them.
I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).
Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.
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Holy shit I love this game
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On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL.
That's okay I am happy to end this duel also, having bested you. Have a pleasant day.
User was warned for this post
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On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand.
soO
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On October 19 2018 17:15 Philozovic wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 07:44 BisuDagger wrote:
Serral has the win percentages to rival Flash level dominance. If he closes out the year with a gold he will become Taeja as the new best player to not win a GSL. He really must compete in GSL next year while he has a hot hand. soO
soO, sOs, Rogue, TY, ... all above Serral if you're just looking for the title "best player that hasn't won a GSL"
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On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary).
Maru is ahead on h2h. 3-1 in offline games and 3-0 in actual tournament games. And he probably has a better win rate vs foreigners as well.
And sample size is very important. For example I believe Clem has a higher winrate vs koreans than either of them. It's easier to maintain a good winrate when you only play koreans twice for a whole year. Maru was 22-1 in matches during one period earlier in the year, except he plays real competition so that streak eventually levelled off.
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United States33711 Posts
I feel like Maru vs Serral is a match-up that could wildly swing in either direction depending on the circumstances. I think Maru could crush with a Code S finals type 2-week prep, but I also could easily see Serral slamming Maru if they met in a weekender-style tournament (that leads me to think Serral has the slight edge on Maru at BlizzCon).
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Serral’s micro and macro, decision making - basically all aspects of his gameplay astonish me. He’s simply brilliant
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On October 19 2018 14:45 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 10:12 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 09:59 Dave4 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 19 2018 09:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2018 09:04 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 08:03 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 06:52 Dave4 wrote:On October 19 2018 06:18 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 19 2018 04:53 kajtarp wrote:
I dont want to be the bad guy here, but i'm afraid he won't even make it out of the group phase. Well most foreigners are in a pretty tough situation seeing as there's 2 koreans in every group and every korean is killer good(personal opinion). I would say Serral got one of if not the easiest group though(only looking at koreans). Edit: Dave4, as "some point out", you mean as you point out.... -_- Also even if every single GSL would have been won by a different players Serral still wouldn't be regarded as best in the world. Since GSL vs the world is far from enough to prove that, and to be honest thats the only tournament worth mentioning if we are discussing best player in the world. Doesn't matter if he wins 20 foreigner events in a row, still not best in the world. On the contrary, his achievements are remarkable in a game as volatile as Starcraft. soO is the only player with a winning record against him this entire year. Although I understand that the Swedish may have trouble accepting a Finnish phenom. You're babbling. On the contrary to what? Me saying foreigner tournament wins doesn't make the greatest player in the world? You believe that the winners of foreigner tournaments are whats important and that it is GSLs that doesn't matter? So your argument is that contrary to what I say you believe that the player that wins the most foreigner tournaments are the greatest player in the world? Or did not mean anything by the "On the contrary" and only used it because it sounds cool without knowing what it means? Never said his achivements are not remarkable, they are amazing I agree with that. Something being amazingly awesometastic doesn't automaticall make him the best player in the world, nor does me saying what I said mean that I don't think he's awesome. Interesting that the only thing you answered was meaningless babble followed by how my opinion is obviously colored because of my nationality... Please if you are going to reply try to put more effort into it than calling me out for being Swedish like there is something wrong with that. For the record Finland is basically Sweden, just as cool but weirder language, if anything I cheer for him harder because he is nordic. (Note that this absolutely irrelevent to the argument of if a player is the best in the world or not, my nationality is not a valid argument in any direction) Edit: Just to be thourough, his win record is pretty irrelevant since the only time he has played against the best players in the world was one tournament. Very possible Neeb had a similar score last year, was he the best player in the world. Hardly. You misjudge me sir, I mean no disrespect. It is much like us Australians have a rivalry with New Zealand, I would expect a similar nation wars rivalry between your countries. Regarding my use of the phrase 'on the contrary', on the contrary to your beliefs I do in fact know its meaning and how to use it. I do however agree that it sounds cool and will take that as a compliment. I was saying on the contrary to your entire argument that Serrals achievements are not worth mentioning in the 'best player's discussions - of course they are, they are regarded as premier tournaments for a reason. His GSL win in particular was against the world's best players and I don't buy the 'oh they don't care about it' argument with a prize pool like that, it's essentially the mini-Blizzcon. I see that you've backtracked your stance a little bit, but I think you can open your mind a little further and see that these tournaments are filled with people who have given their careers and lives to this game, and discrediting the entire foreign scene and then passing off their achievements against both foreign and Korean competition as essentially meaningless could be construed as insulting. Sorry for coming off as condescending, however your arguments are to my eyes skewed and many times illogical. They don't make sense. So you think the best player in the world shouldn't be the player with the highest skill in the game, that comes across quite clearly. You think that how the best player in the world is defined should also take into consideration weaker players feelings? Of course Serral is the best player in the world, of course the matches against other foreigners count because saying otherwise would be insulting those foreign players and they would be... sad? I mean seriously what does their feelings have to do with if someone is the best player in the world or not. The top korean pros are more skilled the top foreign player and that is a fact, just look at the map scores, thats why the best player in the world is not the one that wins the most against the weaker players but the one that wins the most against the best players in the world. Feel free to disagree. Serrals mapscore(according to aligulac compared to korean blizzcon players) Serral 3-3 Maru Serral 1-2 TYSerral 3-4 ClassicSerral 4-3 Stats Serral 5-1 Zest Serral 2-2 Rogue Serral 3-6 DarkSerral 21-21 Korean blizzcon players Serral is awesome but your bold claim earlier does not seem to be backed up the facts(aligulac). I have not backtracked at all, all I've said from the start is that Serral is not best in the world and he wouldn't be close to considered best in the world even if all three different GSLs had different winners. If Serral crushed it at Blizzcon I would be really happy I love his play (even though I love Marus play more xD) but however you cut it its too early to raise him to the skies the way you do every chance you get. Serral has his chance to prove he is the best and we will see how it goes, until then maybe stick to the facts. Hi Shuffleblade, Just so you know, Aligulac is pretty powerful and you can use it to filter results - that'll let you exclude the 2013-2017 results that you may consider not particularly relevant to the 'who is the best player of 2018' argument. Feel free to disagree though, I know my method might seem a bit illogical to you. Sorry if that came off condescending. Yeah, thanks for pointing that out, was a stupid mistake. Glad you found something you could point out since you seem unable to comment on anything besides the factual mistake. Anyway, no point continuing this. I'm hype for Blizzcon, Maru, Serral and TY especially. Hope for great games, lots of views and wild discussions on TL. Since the factual stuff seems important, I think I'll comment on this reply thread. Sorting by vs Koreans, Maru is 38-19 since last BlizzCon, while Serral is 13-5. Serral has a higher win rate vs Koreans than Maru, though he has played fewer matches. Serral also have the higher win rate in games (60% vs 59%). Again, fewer games played (52 vs 182). If we only count Koreans that have qualified for the global finals we get: 7-2 in matches and 17-12 in games for Serral. 14-9 in matches and 53-43 in games. Serral has a higher win rate in both matches and in games. + Show Spoiler + This is my count for the win rate vs the global finalist Koreans.
4 1 3 3 0 0 2 2 2
3 0 1 1 3 3 0 1 0
www w l l w w w
1 3 4 4 1 4 4 3 1 4 4 4 3 2 3 1 2 0 0 2 2 0 1
3 0 3 1 3 0 1 2 3 2 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 2 3 0 3 2 0
l www l www l ww w w l w l w l l w l l w I get the impression that most people think Maru is the best. Just looking at the win rates, Serral has a higher win rate overall, a higher win rate vs Koreans, a higher win rate vs the global finalists and Serral is leading the head-to-head vs Maru (2-1 in matches, 3-3 in games) since the last BlizzCon. Those are facts. Use the facts as you will, but you can't change them. I could not find a single way to make Maru seem superior, other than looking at win rates vs specific players (whic is totally arbitrary). Important to note: I think that Maru is the better player, but Serral is VERY good as well.
Thanks for fixing my sloppy, wrong and misleading post.
Really interesting statistics indeed, that is pretty insane. I also agree with Waxangel that I Believe Serral has the edge in a weekender tournament, getting more nervous about Marus prospects at the moment xD
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"Serral stands as the most feared foreigner Zerg in history."
I think this is not a fair statement. I remember Stephano was just as terrifying in his time.
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EPT
