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On May 23 2007 16:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2007 16:11 DrainX wrote:On May 23 2007 16:04 EkipsTakemi wrote:
Auto matchmaking doesn't do it really for me...
I remember in WC3, I played, from lv 1-25, with level 30's, and they all sucked. That's not really representive of skill there. I doubt how much the ladder games may be abused, but it's all possible...
There should be matchup selections. "PvT, PvP, PvZ, ZvP, ZvT, ZvZ, TvT, TvP, TvZ" options. That would be awesome. And if they can (and I know you're reading this), making a net of maps that are chosen from random. Ex. Chosen "Luna, LT, Longinus II, RoV, Reverse Temple, etc." are "On" and then one is chosen from random. Or you can seperate the "tournament legal" maps into a category of it's own. I know how hard doing it as a net may be, as both players have to agree.(I rhymed) Problem with getting to decide your opponent or deciding maps or matchups is that a player can basicly play only PvT if thats the matchup he is best at and reach #1 on the ladder even if his PvZ sucks. The ladder wouldnt be verry representative if you didnt have to play all matchups and more than your favorite map. Exactly. For a true representation of overall player skill, the ladder needs to be completely random. It doesn't make sense why someone would be able to pick and choose the opponents he gets to play against and have it count on the Ladder Rankings. If someone wants to play against a friend or a training partner, it shouldn't count on the Ladder, it should be a recreational practice game. I remember shortly after War3 was released, the top 50 or so on the Ladder had nobody to play against because of the way the matchmaking system worked, so they had to communicate with the other Top 49 and arrange when to hit the "Play Game" button so they could play. That's the closest you should be able to get to a non-random Ladder in my opinion.
Whos to say the top ladder guys aren't playing the same races strats anyways?
I don't see anything wrong with with arranging a ladder game with someone for points as long as its not more than 2-3 games a week with the same guy.
If you have someone that has been talking shit and wants to put their money where their mouth is this can make the game much more satisfying. Sort of like playing heads up poker with some douche bag at the casino.
As well as playing with a regular friends/acquaintances/clan members 2-3 times each every week to have some enjoyable ladder matches. It just makes the game so much funner and challenging when you have some regular people to play against and compare skills when its actually for something.
This would be especially good for the top people on the ladder. They log on in the #1-5 spot and no one higher rank is on to play they could be searching for hours for a game. This way they can challenge people a little lower then them much easier. As long as they are within challenge range.
The only problem I could see arising from this is that some players will totally avoid the AMM all together. Choosing only to play people who choose to play them.
The solution to that is that they would lose points or be warned by blizzard to start playing more AMM instead of just 'agreement' games. Sort of like how the EXP decay works for war3.
Besides I don't think anyone could climb the ladder without using the AMM and just playing 'agreement' games if everyone else is playing AMM.
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AMM will make Battle.net last longer and make it easier for all to find a game.
May be you guys dont feel it. But I do. The language barrier is what keep Starcraft Asia battle away from many gamers.
In Asia realm, you basically faces 3 kind of gamers:
1. Korean
2. Chinese
3. Others coutrires
in which Chinese and Korean have very bad communication skill, and sometime make it very annoying to get one game going.
Thus, People just hang out with some of their friends in some channel that they know.
AMM enable the mass game playing without much effort. I truly believe that SC2 Battle.net will have the AMM feature which is one of the best feature Warcraft 3 has to offer to Battle.net community.
May be you dislike AMM at first, but later on you will love it. I can guarantee you this 
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Germany1306 Posts
You are able to arrange matches with your friends or ppl you know, just not for points, but that should not be the reason you play with friends anyway, so I see no problem with that. Besides that, AAM just is about the best (to avoid saying one of few good things) thing that wc3 has to offer, and implementing it, or an improved version of it, seems like the best solution to me.
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Maybe they could have a competitive ladder with restrictions and automatch alongside a practice ladder where you can pick matchups and maps. Having the best of both worlds would be awesome.
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Having played both BW and WC3, I'd choose AMM over manual game searching any day. However, there can be combinations as has been mentioned before to get the best of both. As opposite as the two may seem, I can think of a few ways to come up with a well-rounded, flexible system.
You can disable certain maps in WC3. Why not have it for matchups?
For example, if you need more help with TvZ, you check the boxes for P and T. Obviously these filtering need some penalties. Let's say
All matchups enabled: 100% exp
2 enabled: 70%
1 enabled: 50%
If I happen to check out T and P so that I can play Z and finally find a game, the Z player would still get 100% exp if he wins, if he had all three matchups enabled that is.
To what FA said in the original post, I don't think AMM is anti-social at all. I've met plenty of people through ladder play and played a lot of different people with different styles and that would have been a lot more difficult if I had done it the old-fashioned way. Nothing is going to stop private inhouse/custom game channels from exisiting.
The community is what you make out of it. AMM is one of the best approachs to an abuse-free ladder and if you want a friendlier atmostphere, then it's not the AMM that'll get in your way.
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wc3 bnet is a disaster, alot of commands in chat that are available ain't there in wc3 - like auto-leave/enter notification, etc.
the intro of every wc3 game is boring and auto-match can be good only if it's, like stated before, an option, not the only way of playing ladder, i'm sure in the end manual search would prevail since we are hunters, not wc3 chobos.
like it's not enough blizzard messed up sc with patch 1.14(1.13f was just fine), we got like errors loading scenario, etc., now they gave us even worse patch, 1.15 with zillions of bugs+they try to implement wc3 style "last replay", like gimme a break, we have pp+autosave replay, nice archive you can check later for some game you didn't save for x reason, friend asked me for a replay of our game, naturally i go to the folder to look it up, but doh, only last replay is autosaved-sux.
the less stuff they bring from wc3 the better. the whole interface of bnet and all the stuff in wc3 simply sux. plain and simple like we always had it - if ppl want it, put an auto-match system as an option, who likes it he can use it.
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On June 03 2007 18:27 Dendra wrote:
wc3 bnet is a disaster, alot of commands in chat that are available ain't there in wc3 - like auto-leave/enter notification, etc.
the intro of every wc3 game is boring and auto-match can be good only if it's, like stated before, an option, not the only way of playing ladder, i'm sure in the end manual search would prevail since we are hunters, not wc3 chobos.
like it's not enough blizzard messed up sc with patch 1.14(1.13f was just fine), we got like errors loading scenario, etc., now they gave us even worse patch, 1.15 with zillions of bugs+they try to implement wc3 style "last replay", like gimme a break, we have pp+autosave replay, nice archive you can check later for some game you didn't save for x reason, friend asked me for a replay of our game, naturally i go to the folder to look it up, but doh, only last replay is autosaved-sux.
the less stuff they bring from wc3 the better. the whole interface of bnet and all the stuff in wc3 simply sux. plain and simple like we always had it - if ppl want it, put an auto-match system as an option, who likes it he can use it.
You need to think before you post.
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WC3 AMM was great and I would love to see it in SC2. The reason AMM on WC3 is crap now is because no one plays WC3 anymore, so as long as people like SC2 it'd be good.
I remember when WC3 first came out, there was so many people playing it that it'd only take 1 second to find ladder games, and the people you went against were of similar skill level.
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United States12240 Posts
To elaborate on Heen's point, the AMM merely matches you with other players nearest your skill level quickly. Invariably, you will be matched with the same people repeatedly assuming they are truly on your level. After the second or third game against a person, you'll get to know them. Just look at the War3 ladder - all the top 30 or so people on each gateway knew each other and were practice partners outside of the Ladder. It's a little different for them because in order to even get games in the first place they have to keep in contact with those players (since they're at the top) but the principle applies to all skill levels. In fact, I'd say that AMM is even more social than present-day SC pub Battle.net.
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It's not like you can't host custom games ... why do you have to be able to host for "ladder" games? That destroys the integrity of the ladder and is one of the reasons why no one ever put jack stock into the SC ladder at first. WC3 has its flaws but its ladder system is fine for the most part, and is far superior to hosting games for 'ladder'. If you wanna host, play a custom game, it's not a big deal. That's what the pros do anyway.
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The more functions and control over it, i.e. Bnet, the better it is. Why would people even complain about this shit? AMM is inevitable.
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I definitely think they should keep the AMM, but I also think that instead of using some complicated "level/xp" system it should just use Glicko (ELO-based) ratings, where your rank on the ladder is determined by rating - rating uncertainty (ie players are ranked in order of their minimum possible rating). This would both allow for truly accurate matchups and encourage activity without distorting the rating system. With a new and exciting game I don't think there will be any need to "bribe" people into playing with "fake" points (like WGT) or "fake" levels (like War 3), and I'd rather see an accurate system since playing people of about your own strength is more fun.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The biggest thing i disliked about the w3 AMM was the map pool
all blizzard owned and maintained; and never left room for any other maps to make it in
as long as the AMM ladder is maintained with a current map pool and not run stupidly, im fine with it
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also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.
in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago.
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On June 04 2007 04:20 Dendra wrote:
also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.
in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago.
shut up dendra and listen to Aphelion
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On June 04 2007 04:20 Dendra wrote:
also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.
in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago.
You need to be banned for pure stupidity. I don't care how much heart this guy has, because this is crossing the line 
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On June 03 2007 18:49 Aphelion wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2007 18:27 Dendra wrote:
wc3 bnet is a disaster, alot of commands in chat that are available ain't there in wc3 - like auto-leave/enter notification, etc.
the intro of every wc3 game is boring and auto-match can be good only if it's, like stated before, an option, not the only way of playing ladder, i'm sure in the end manual search would prevail since we are hunters, not wc3 chobos.
like it's not enough blizzard messed up sc with patch 1.14(1.13f was just fine), we got like errors loading scenario, etc., now they gave us even worse patch, 1.15 with zillions of bugs+they try to implement wc3 style "last replay", like gimme a break, we have pp+autosave replay, nice archive you can check later for some game you didn't save for x reason, friend asked me for a replay of our game, naturally i go to the folder to look it up, but doh, only last replay is autosaved-sux.
the less stuff they bring from wc3 the better. the whole interface of bnet and all the stuff in wc3 simply sux. plain and simple like we always had it - if ppl want it, put an auto-match system as an option, who likes it he can use it. You need to think before you post.
edit:
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On June 04 2007 04:49 Heen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2007 04:20 Dendra wrote:
also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.
in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago. You need to be banned for pure stupidity. I don't care how much heart this guy has, because this is crossing the line
hee hee hee you're so mean
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Automatching made finding ladder games (both 1v1s and team ladder games) really simple, which resulted in more ladder games being played. It also created the impression that that was the default way to play, perhaps even drawing some players who would otherwise congregate in an BGH-like arena. I definitely think it had positive effect on the community and the ability to quickly and efficiently play ladder games.
Sure, you can keep the regular way to ladder as well, but automatching should definitely be an option. Moreoever, if it is an option, I can almost guarantee that the vast majority of people will use automatching as a way to ladder rather than actually seek out an opponent. This is because for every player who wants to log on and play a ladder game against his friend, there will be 100 who just want to play a ladder game.
Moreover, I do not think automatching has a negative impact on the community or is anti-social in any way. People who play war3 who have friends online can still log on and play custom games with them as much as they want. Automatching just gives people who want to participate in the ladder an easy an convenient way of doing so.
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On June 04 2007 04:49 Heen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2007 04:20 Dendra wrote:
also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.
in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago. You need to be banned for pure stupidity. I don't care how much heart this guy has, because this is crossing the line
i guess closing your eyes makes you smart? fact is everytime blizzard makes a new patch lately it only brings trouble, 1st you gotta fix the bot so it can run again, then you gotta make new bwlauncher, now even all of the utilities like obs mode, etc.
sc community has proven it can take care of itself since it survived for all the years - we made our own ladders, programs, everything, only thing blizzard did is fixing some minor bugs that happen in x situation only if the players likes to abuse it, so not much of a change- fact. you can like it or not, i see this is sc2 topic so the readers group might be wrong for having this kind of discussion.
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EPT
