Thoughts on auto-matchmaking

On May 21 2007 16:23 MyLostTemple wrote:
the beauty of auto matching is it destroys the option for a player to pick only one matchup or only one map (assuming map selection can be controled) and more accurately displays ones 'overall' skill in a very broad sense.

the problems can involve getting put against asshole disconnectors who you would probably avoid normally due to their number of disconects. bm players can be a problem too.

On May 21 2007 15:58 Manifesto7 wrote:
I thought the WC3 battle.net moved too slowly. I want clicks to be instantaneous. I dont want to wait to watch graphics which I will eventually see thousands of times.

On May 21 2007 16:23 MyLostTemple wrote:
the beauty of auto matching is it destroys the option for a player to pick only one matchup or only one map (assuming map selection can be controled) and more accurately displays ones 'overall' skill in a very broad sense.

the problems can involve getting put against asshole disconnectors who you would probably avoid normally due to their number of disconects. bm players can be a problem too.

On May 21 2007 18:06 IntoTheWow wrote:
So how about

Automatch for ladders
Old system for the rest?

On May 21 2007 18:23 il0seonpurpose wrote:
this is inrevalent but everybody i played from PGT was a d!

On May 21 2007 17:07 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Also destroys the ability to use the ladder as a practice tool for a specific matchup or picking matchups (ie PvZ ZvT TvP)

On May 21 2007 15:58 Manifesto7 wrote:
About stats, me too 2v2 stats would be a nice dream as well, along with race stats and activity charts.

On May 21 2007 17:07 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Also destroys the ability to use the ladder as a practice tool for a specific matchup or picking matchups (ie PvZ ZvT TvP)

On May 21 2007 18:34 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Freeplay without stats? YUCK

On May 21 2007 18:36 red.venom wrote:


Well if it destroys playing against annoying, inflexible people who only want a specific match and match up then I am all for it. ; ] because that was the worst thing about PGT and unfortunately at B and below it encompassed a majority of the games.

On May 21 2007 18:57 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Hey I used to be PvZ PvT TvP cause I loved TvP =] I'd play any matchup tho, but would an option to ask for a specific race be super bad you think?

Like.. "Preferred race of opponent: T, P Z"

On May 21 2007 18:34 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Let me give you an example of why I'd like to have a choice of opponent as an alternative to the auto-match thing:

Once in PGTour I played this korean guy something like 11 times straight (4 hours in a row just playing PvP wee), anyway, he was really close to moving up a rank but everytime he got within 100 points of there I beat him (he won at a 2:1 ratio I think, or almost that much anyway) and after like hours he goes..

"You bad T_T!!!!!" (as in mean) when I beat him again just as he needs just 100 more points :D

SEE, I'd have missed out on this totally awesome moment! (in the end he did make the rank btw, were fun and mannered games)

On May 21 2007 19:13 rpf wrote:
There are some pretty big problems with not having an auto match feature for a ladder.

First of all, it inspires people to sit around waiting for the perfect "victim." For example, when I was on PGT sometimes, I'd get whispers from players who had no fucking business messaging a "D" player looking for a game. They saw me as an easy win, and specifically targeted me because of that.

Is that really fair? I don't think so. Of course, it's up to me to accept or deny the challenge, so I can't complain if I accept the game. But, being pestered by better players who want easy points to get a higher rank, I think, is unfair.

Second, this results in some higher-ranked players only having such a rank because they did nothing but pick their targets carefully all season.

I'm not trying to imply that all high-ranked players used "underhanded" tactics to obtain their respectable ranks, but rather that a few "bad apples" can spoil the fun of ladder games.

I think an auto match feature would be great. It'd prevent jackasses from specifically preying on low level players to gain points.

On May 21 2007 19:14 SoleSteeler wrote:


Let me tell you about this one time I was playing War3. I was in a channel with my friend, and we decided to play separate ladder games... We were RL friends and we said whoever won would get $20 from the other person. If you both won you kept going until someone lost.

We both went 3-0 then played...each other!

I lost! Fuck...

Good story though!

I would have missed out on this totally awesome moment without the AMM


edit:

wasn't trying to be sarcastic or anything towards you FA, basically I am saying that great stories can happen anywhere... humanity is infinite! or something

On May 21 2007 15:54 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks it's pretty anti-social (which together with the lack of online replays and observers not being able to chat with player - maybe this can be turned off - made me feel war3 was kinda unfriendly.. the design of bnet sucked too)?

I'd love to have the feature but I think having the option of making a ladder game manually would be great, as this would allow for re-games and most likely a ladder channel. I guess the trade-off is the potential for abuse..

Another thing, I'm hoping there will be separate melee and ladder stats like in SC, just because I think it looks nice

Any thoughts~_~?

On May 23 2007 15:11 CharlieMurphy wrote:
Another thing wrong with the AMM is that once you get passed a certain level of skill it starts to become really hard to find games. I think that you should be able to search for a game while doing many other tasks such as playing in a UMS/Melee game. And when the system matches you up you should be able to chat with the player.


I also agree with the slow graphical interface in WAR3 bnet. That was one of the first things that turned me off about that game.

On May 23 2007 16:04 EkipsTakemi wrote:
Auto matchmaking doesn't do it really for me...

I remember in WC3, I played, from lv 1-25, with level 30's, and they all sucked. That's not really representive of skill there. I doubt how much the ladder games may be abused, but it's all possible...

There should be matchup selections. "PvT, PvP, PvZ, ZvP, ZvT, ZvZ, TvT, TvP, TvZ" options. That would be awesome. And if they can (and I know you're reading this), making a net of maps that are chosen from random. Ex. Chosen "Luna, LT, Longinus II, RoV, Reverse Temple, etc." are "On" and then one is chosen from random. Or you can seperate the "tournament legal" maps into a category of it's own. I know how hard doing it as a net may be, as both players have to agree.(I rhymed)

On May 23 2007 16:11 DrainX wrote:


Problem with getting to decide your opponent or deciding maps or matchups is that a player can basicly play only PvT if thats the matchup he is best at and reach #1 on the ladder even if his PvZ sucks. The ladder wouldnt be verry representative if you didnt have to play all matchups and more than your favorite map.

On May 23 2007 16:11 DrainX wrote:


Problem with getting to decide your opponent or deciding maps or matchups is that a player can basicly play only PvT if thats the matchup he is best at and reach #1 on the ladder even if his PvZ sucks. The ladder wouldnt be verry representative if you didnt have to play all matchups and more than your favorite map.

On May 23 2007 16:43 Excalibur_Z wrote:


Exactly. For a true representation of overall player skill, the ladder needs to be completely random. It doesn't make sense why someone would be able to pick and choose the opponents he gets to play against and have it count on the Ladder Rankings. If someone wants to play against a friend or a training partner, it shouldn't count on the Ladder, it should be a recreational practice game. I remember shortly after War3 was released, the top 50 or so on the Ladder had nobody to play against because of the way the matchmaking system worked, so they had to communicate with the other Top 49 and arrange when to hit the "Play Game" button so they could play. That's the closest you should be able to get to a non-random Ladder in my opinion.

On June 03 2007 18:27 Dendra wrote:
wc3 bnet is a disaster, alot of commands in chat that are available ain't there in wc3 - like auto-leave/enter notification, etc.

the intro of every wc3 game is boring and auto-match can be good only if it's, like stated before, an option, not the only way of playing ladder, i'm sure in the end manual search would prevail since we are hunters, not wc3 chobos.

like it's not enough blizzard messed up sc with patch 1.14(1.13f was just fine), we got like errors loading scenario, etc., now they gave us even worse patch, 1.15 with zillions of bugs+they try to implement wc3 style "last replay", like gimme a break, we have pp+autosave replay, nice archive you can check later for some game you didn't save for x reason, friend asked me for a replay of our game, naturally i go to the folder to look it up, but doh, only last replay is autosaved-sux.

the less stuff they bring from wc3 the better. the whole interface of bnet and all the stuff in wc3 simply sux. plain and simple like we always had it - if ppl want it, put an auto-match system as an option, who likes it he can use it.

On June 04 2007 04:20 Dendra wrote:
also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.

in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago.

On June 04 2007 04:20 Dendra wrote:
also wc3 has "brilliant" ladder system, i lost 5games in row cuz my conn broke in 1st 4sec - ofc that's a loss. and the mappool just sux, you end up playing on some ufo-style map which the other guy ofc knows and wins only because he knew about some hidden spot where a monster drops infernal-doh.

in sc we make the mappool, it's up to us who we play against and it's up to us to create all the useful utilites for sc since blizzard obviusly can't and never did anything useful besides fixing 1patch/year. if we didn't have bwprogrammers.com sc would be (maybe) dead long ago.

On June 03 2007 18:49 Aphelion wrote:


You need to think before you post.

On June 04 2007 04:49 Heen wrote:

You need to be banned for pure stupidity. I don't care how much heart this guy has, because this is crossing the line

On June 04 2007 04:49 Heen wrote:

You need to be banned for pure stupidity. I don't care how much heart this guy has, because this is crossing the line

On June 04 2007 04:49 Heen wrote:

You need to be banned for pure stupidity. I don't care how much heart this guy has, because this is crossing the line

On June 04 2007 10:30 lololol wrote:


Banning people for posting the truth is typical around here, so he'll be banned for sure, don't worry!

On June 04 2007 13:10 SoleSteeler wrote:


No not really. I've probably played about 2000 ladder games on War3's AMM and have been disconnected maybe 5 times ever, maybe he needs a better connection? And you don't know the maps? Boo fucking hoo, learn them you idiot, there's only like 8 or so... how hard is it to learn 8 maps?

On June 04 2007 13:46 Dendra wrote:

the point is wc3 ladder counts a 0.000000001sec long game as a loss which is absolutely ridiculous.
maps - they keep adding&removing maps+i'm not into wc3 so much i'll go and learn some chobo 6player map and analyse what every critter drops.

think best time for a draw would be like 1:30 or so since you can do manner gas/pylon or something like that below 2min and people alt-q-q, kinda lame. that was especially on paranoid androide.

On June 04 2007 15:14 Heen wrote:
Dendra, you listed a bunch of problems that are totally unrelated to the ladder system.

You lost 5 games in a row? That's most likely your problem alone. Even if it were BNet lagging at the time, it has nothing to do with the ladder system which is the discussion at hand.

The map pool sucks, really? Most people have been content with it from what I've seen. Again, this has more to do with person preferences than with the ladder system.

Then you complain about someone winning because he knows where to creep. Boo hoo. That's a big part of the game. Your dislike of WC3 holds no grounds for bashing its 'brilliant' ladder system.

The problem with BW ladder is that it's a 10-year-old game, not that Blizzard is stupid. I'll take a guess and say that the reason that Blizzard hasn't changed the BW ladder is because they can't or it'll take too much effort.

You need to make logical arguments that somehow contribute to the discussion.

On June 04 2007 13:46 Dendra wrote:

the point is wc3 ladder counts a 0.000000001sec long game as a loss which is absolutely ridiculous.

On June 04 2007 17:41 Dendra wrote:

you didn't read my post, did you?
counting a 1sec game in wc3 as a win/loss is not logical, you keep mentioning 5losses in a row, who cares if it was 1, or if it was 5 wins in a row, fact is 1sec game is not what we would call a ladder game in sc.

as for the 2nd - don't take guesses. the issue i mentioned is well-known to the community and should be solved like mentioned - with the help of an admin.

Next time you decide to comment something read it carefully.

On June 04 2007 18:11 Heen wrote:

You're the one lacking reading comprehension skills.

Counting a 1 sec game as a win/loss is illogical? Says who? Only you apparently. It may be a different case in BW where the games are found by hand, but in AMM, of course all disconnects/early quits should be counted as losses. If not, then every time I got matchuped against someone really good or a matchup that I suck at, I could quit for a 100% loss prevention. It would be as gay as someone who just left the game early on because he messed up his BO or scouted 2 gate. Deal with it.

As for the 2nd part, you can't just make all the changes you want with patches. Blizzard introduced right-click rallying from WC3 to BW. However, Blizzard can't one day decide to implement the same ladder system as WC3 into BW.

On June 04 2007 20:35 Dendra wrote:

sure you could abuse leaving the game just like you can do it in sc, it just means amm would require alot of adjustements and this 1sec victory thing would be a big issue.

[B]

just for the record - the most idiotic thing ever to be implemented in sc is the right click rally point, that has become like the only command in game with two hotkeys...i don't see siege tank mode hotkey on letters S and T for example - to avoid confusion. in my games it happend millions of times that one of my 10+ gates suddenly has a rally point on x point on the map - thx to the right click thing.i still use good old r+left click, call it a habit. every time blizzard starts adding things from wc3 they should make it as Optional.

On June 05 2007 04:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
i pretty much love right click rally point. while you can always argue that making it optional is preferable, I think a very, very small minority actually minds it being there by default.

On June 05 2007 12:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if it's possible to check out match lists, someone who plays only one matchup on one match gets little credit for his skill. it's also normally impossible to get top 16 or whatever playing only one matchup (at least I cannot recall anyone being top 16 on any competitive ladder while only playing one matchup)

thus I cannot see the harm of this. the problem denying people the ability to pick opponents (through people wanting to play against eachother simply not playing ladder, which IS a problem.. ) is much greater than the disadvantage it gives. I recall so many great sets of games between great players on wgtour, tltour, etc, that could not have taken place with AMM. allowing the community to follow how their preferred players fare in bo5 or bo7 games against other great players is great entertainment, and allowing people to play bo5 or bo7 games is also great. there being a ladder which people whom normally play practice games against eachother can play ladder games against eachother instead just makes everything sweeter; I know that during TLT etc I played many awesome series of games against players that I would normally be able to play normal practice games with too, however the games being ladder added another significance to the games and made them even better.

the option for picking map and opponent to play against is a necessity. I know that I personally would often not have played ladder if it was not possible, and this could end up being the case for sc2 too if AMM is implemented; many of the best players might avoid the ladder if they are forced into playing random maps against random players as opposed to being allowed to play bo5 games against people they enjoy playing on maps they want to play. the slight disadvantage of the abuse it allows, and that people can choose to only play 1 map or 1 matchup, which is something, if the ladder is designed correctly anyone can check out for themselves, is insignificant.

amm is a great tool for early levels of ladder, people who take no part in the community, and people who just want a quick random game. at the higher levels, the option for manual matchmaking is a necessity, or many of the best players simply will not take part, and this is much worse than some people getting an inflated score.

On June 05 2007 17:06 Aphelion wrote:


They could easily implement BoX options or rematch options through AMM. And you could thumb down maps that you dislike. I fail to see how these would be major problems through a AMM ladder.

I recall during the first year of starcraft, I'd hang around in Ladder Challenges, noticing all these bigname players.. I'd want to play them, and getting games with them became a reason for getting a higher score in ladder, just so they would accept a game against me.

On June 06 2007 02:09 EmS.Radagast wrote:

so with AMM ladder, the same thing will happen... you will want to have a really good rating to have the gosu players accept practice games against you. What does it matter if you play those gosus on ladder or not?

On June 06 2007 04:45 Dendra wrote:

you don't get it, do you? in bw when you're unknown you wanna get same rank as some big name player to get him to play you, if you're same rank there's possibility they'll ask you for a game and no matter if you just finished a whole-night lan and you're freaking dead you'll still want to play.

big names play with you in that way, automatch separates people, decreases the channel communication. in our system we have channels where we communicate before we play, in most cases big names come on that channel to play ladder games, not to give some fun non-ladder games to random noobs who admire them, so in your system not only do we not have a mutual ladder channel but it's also highly unlikely you'll catch some big name on bnet and get him to play you - it's like in bw when you come on some famous channel and ask for a game there is little chance some big name will play you, but on ladder at the start of the season any noob can play with the most gosu players of that ladder.

lots of times i played vs someone better, after bo3 he got one rank higher and didnt want more ladder games so i asked for non-ladder for the sake of training and we played some more or if he didn't want to play i tried hard to get the same rank so we play again.. i didn't play a single bo3 with anyone on wc3 since you can't choose your opponent, one game and gg, lots of times in our system people will play 3, 5, hell even 10 games, i want that option to stay.

On June 06 2007 05:22 Zironic wrote:


Play as many rematches as you want, just don't expect to get any ladder points out of it. The ladder is meant for skill and customs are meant for fun and practice. The only way to create a fair ladder is to make you unable to choose whom your opponent will be.

On June 06 2007 05:22 Zironic wrote:


Play as many rematches as you want, just don't expect to get any ladder points out of it. The ladder is meant for skill and customs are meant for fun and practice. The only way to create a fair ladder is to make you unable to choose whom your opponent will be.

Aren't the big names likely to sit around in their probably locked clan channels and only play practice games against their clan members anyhow?

On June 06 2007 08:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
don't underestimate the community.. brood war would not have been around with this kind of vitality for 9 years without it, no matter how great of a game it is. having a channel where people can ask for games, and where worse players can gather together with the better players, is important for this. hell, I even know of people whom would take screenshots after saying hi to someone famous and getting a hi back.. it matters a lot to some. if the bnet ladder is only AMM, either people will create another ladder that is not, or they simply will play much less ladder than they otherwise would.

On June 06 2007 08:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
don't underestimate the community.. brood war would not have been around with this kind of vitality for 9 years without it, no matter how great of a game it is. having a channel where people can ask for games, and where worse players can gather together with the better players, is important for this. hell, I even know of people whom would take screenshots after saying hi to someone famous and getting a hi back.. it matters a lot to some. if the bnet ladder is only AMM, either people will create another ladder that is not, or they simply will play much less ladder than they otherwise would.

On June 06 2007 11:46 Dendra wrote:
wc3 attracts players to the ladder with money, sc with quality. end of story.

On June 06 2007 14:53 Bodom_Night wrote:
auto match making is great. ive played wc3 and trust me once you get the matchmaking you wont look back i think. of course theyll have custom games along with the matchmaking games so you dont have to worry. it makes for a good ladder system where you can play people at your skill level.

On June 06 2007 15:14 Dendra wrote:

and trust me i looked back, as much as some sc players think it's annoying having a ladder channel where ppl keep flaming/shouting how they owned someone,etc. it's much worse on wc3, it's probably like somone said the new wave of players after the 1.14 version or whatever just like sc has it's own wave of bm generation in last 2years, but still you can play a ladder game and only get bothered by "you hack" msges from time to time, but it's nowhere near like wc3 where literally whole vocabulary is based on haha and noob.

dunno, whatever they do i just hope they make it all optional, whatever they wish put it in sc2, leave sc alone

On June 06 2007 15:14 Dendra wrote:

and trust me i looked back, as much as some sc players think it's annoying having a ladder channel where ppl keep flaming/shouting how they owned someone,etc. it's much worse on wc3, it's probably like somone said the new wave of players after the 1.14 version or whatever just like sc has it's own wave of bm generation in last 2years, but still you can play a ladder game and only get bothered by "you hack" msges from time to time, but it's nowhere near like wc3 where literally whole vocabulary is based on haha and noob.

dunno, whatever they do i just hope they make it all optional, whatever they wish put it in sc2, leave sc alone

On June 06 2007 20:30 SpiritAshura wrote:

i dunno what level you were at in wc3 (since I'm sure that 50-55% and below players are like that a LOT more than people above that), but i never deal with that on US East or Europe. Once you get passed that, it's basically smooth sailing and just about always mannered.

On June 05 2007 12:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if it's possible to check out match lists, someone who plays only one matchup on one match gets little credit for his skill. it's also normally impossible to get top 16 or whatever playing only one matchup (at least I cannot recall anyone being top 16 on any competitive ladder while only playing one matchup)

thus I cannot see the harm of this. the problem denying people the ability to pick opponents (through people wanting to play against eachother simply not playing ladder, which IS a problem.. ) is much greater than the disadvantage it gives. I recall so many great sets of games between great players on wgtour, tltour, etc, that could not have taken place with AMM. allowing the community to follow how their preferred players fare in bo5 or bo7 games against other great players is great entertainment, and allowing people to play bo5 or bo7 games is also great. there being a ladder which people whom normally play practice games against eachother can play ladder games against eachother instead just makes everything sweeter; I know that during TLT etc I played many awesome series of games against players that I would normally be able to play normal practice games with too, however the games being ladder added another significance to the games and made them even better.

the option for picking map and opponent to play against is a necessity. I know that I personally would often not have played ladder if it was not possible, and this could end up being the case for sc2 too if AMM is implemented; many of the best players might avoid the ladder if they are forced into playing random maps against random players as opposed to being allowed to play bo5 games against people they enjoy playing on maps they want to play. the slight disadvantage of the abuse it allows, and that people can choose to only play 1 map or 1 matchup, which is something, if the ladder is designed correctly anyone can check out for themselves, is insignificant.

amm is a great tool for early levels of ladder, people who take no part in the community, and people who just want a quick random game. at the higher levels, the option for manual matchmaking is a necessity, or many of the best players simply will not take part, and this is much worse than some people getting an inflated score.

On June 07 2007 04:31 Pads wrote:


mgz)ptak ? ;o~

On June 07 2007 00:58 Dendra wrote:


well i'm talking in general...+wc3 has some major manner issues cuz lately like 2-3players got kicked out of teams cuz of their manner.

On June 07 2007 07:52 Zironic wrote:


There is probably some kind of natural law that states the bigger the community the more uncivilized it gets. There isn't anything about WC3 as such that makes the community hostile it's just the pure size of it. It's easy to behave badly when you don't expect to meet the person ever again.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Starcraft had the same issues when the community was larger and more active then it is now. Starcraft 2 is basically guaranteed to have issues like this and it is impossible for Blizzard to do much about it.

One thing the could do is adding a report function so you can report people for being offensive and a moderator can go through the chat log and temp ban abusive people. Don't think AMM does any difference in either direction.

On June 07 2007 00:58 Dendra wrote:


well i'm talking in general...+wc3 has some major manner issues cuz lately like 2-3players got kicked out of teams cuz of their manner.

On June 07 2007 08:52 Dendra wrote:

blame amm for that issue - people sitting in random channels, playing random people which they most likely will never play again, in you play same people quite often, you meet them in popular channels etc.

just how bad amm is you can tell by comparing both communities - sc has and always will popular channels as meeting places, awesome community websites like tl.net, etc. in wc3 it's all so...dead...i look at ggnet topics, the general ones, most of the posts come from sc gamers, like looking for clan, etc. i guess only thing that keeps wc3 alive is prize pool and fairly small difference between progamers and amateurs compared to sc whereas you have to train for year before even starting to win solid amateur non-korean players.

On June 07 2007 10:06 Excalibur_Z wrote:


That's not a balanced representation of the War3 community. What about sites like wcreplays which is devoted to high-level War3 play? It may not be TL.net but it's certainly better than GG.net. You're drawing comparisons between two completely different atmospheres, as well - the average SC player stays in whatever channel he autojoined (Brood War USA-4) and searches the Join Game list, whereas the average War3 player gets automatched with an opponent through Play Game. It's no different. At levels beyond casual play, that's when people start joining channels, and where popular channels emerge because the better players play there, and that applies to both games.

On June 07 2007 17:12 Dendra wrote:

yep, agreed. i compared more of a competitive layer of sc gamers, whereas fastest possible+lower ranks players are prolly just as in wc3 lower ranks are.

warcraft3 has alot to work on, the match ups can be quite imbalanced, most of the time it kills creativity of players since you already know he'll tower rush cuz of close position or try something like that.

btw since you know so much bout wc3, i'll go bit off topic. is there a way to fix your mouse so that it moves like an arrow in the game? to explain - when i move my G1(with latest drivers) the mouse doesn't follow my hand at same time, like it's running a bit late after my move, like it's drunk or running through the water, an effect like that. in sc with same setups my mouse is flying like a dart, sharp/precise moves, in wc3 it's like i said, not on the same speed i move my hand. i figured it's because the mouse is ingame, not the windows mouse(thing you can change in many games), but i failed to find a way to fix it

On June 07 2007 07:52 Zironic wrote:


There is probably some kind of natural law that states the bigger the community the more uncivilized it gets. There isn't anything about WC3 as such that makes the community hostile it's just the pure size of it. It's easy to behave badly when you don't expect to meet the person ever again.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Starcraft had the same issues when the community was larger and more active then it is now. Starcraft 2 is basically guaranteed to have issues like this and it is impossible for Blizzard to do much about it.

One thing the could do is adding a report function so you can report people for being offensive and a moderator can go through the chat log and temp ban abusive people. Don't think AMM does any difference in either direction.

On June 09 2007 02:42 FrozenArbiter wrote:

Dunno what Dendra is talking about, there's toooonnes of bad manner in starcraft too, shit like that is everywhere where lots of people gather.

Also, are there any really popular channels for war3? Maybe one of the reasons I never got into that game was that Bnet seemed completely empty -_-;

On June 09 2007 07:49 Heen wrote:
What a load of bullshit. Dendra your dislike and ignorance of WC3 is so blatantly obvious it's really becoming painful to read your posts.

Do you even realize that you are pulling shit out of your ass?

I'm fine with the fact that you prefer the BW ladder (I would like to see both sides of this issue, really) but you make the most retarded arguments to support it. WC3 ladder is a disaster because I am forced to play BM opponents... right. And how the fuck would you tell if someone's really BM or not in BW if you're playing him for the first time?

How far have you gotten up the WC3 ladder? Because I'm starting to think you stopped at lvl 7 and that's the experience your basing your anti-WC3 opinions on.

Let's put aside for a second that your reasoning makes no sense. If, as you seem to have acknowledged, WC3 players smurf less, wouldn't that mean that they are LESS likely to be BM.

WC3 ladder page is excellent. Do you have a problem with it?

On June 09 2007 07:49 Heen wrote:
What a load of bullshit. Dendra your dislike and ignorance of WC3 is so blatantly obvious it's really becoming painful to read your posts.

Do you even realize that you are pulling shit out of your ass?

I'm fine with the fact that you prefer the BW ladder (I would like to see both sides of this issue, really) but you make the most retarded arguments to support it. WC3 ladder is a disaster because I am forced to play BM opponents... right. And how the fuck would you tell if someone's really BM or not in BW if you're playing him for the first time?

How far have you gotten up the WC3 ladder? Because I'm starting to think you stopped at lvl 7 and that's the experience your basing your anti-WC3 opinions on.

Let's put aside for a second that your reasoning makes no sense. If, as you seem to have acknowledged, WC3 players smurf less, wouldn't that mean that they are LESS likely to be BM.

WC3 ladder page is excellent. Do you have a problem with it?

On June 09 2007 23:43 Heen wrote:
You're fucking hopeless.

On June 11 2007 01:04 Xiven wrote:
Say all you want about how great it was in SC, but I'm sitting here trying to get a 3v3 going in SC and it takes forever to fill a game up. Or I join a game and its 3 guys that all are friends vs whatever random 3 people join (those always go great).

If this were war3 I'd click "Find game" and I'd be playing already instead of posting on some forum while I watch the clock.

I'll bet if Blizzard posted stats on win rates for Top VS Bottom games it would go at least 70% in Top's favor.

On June 09 2007 23:37 Dendra wrote:

errm, you can be 30+ on new ladder because a) the game is dead boring compared to sc, b) ladder rating system is f*** up.

as for the smurfs=less bm thing, i explained already why ppl on wc3 are so bm - in sc ALL levels of players encounter each other often on ladder and honestly their bm is a bit more intelligent since i meet once every 10years a sc player who spams during game "haha, nobbo nooobooo", blablabla.

errm...as for the wc3 ladder site - wow is nice, yet it's one retarded game, wc3 ladder site might be nice but you boys will never reach the community level of sc that pgt/wgt had. we have a freakin strong community compared to your wc3 which i'm pretty sure won't last long as sc since it's a noob-friendly, graphics whore and as such will be easily replaced by wc4/anything that looks nicer and is even more easy to play, and to add, it is already being replaced by dota which is even more "dumb-friendly style play" friendly, that's the majority of players wc3 has - half of them dont play sc cuz it's 2hard and they want to relax more when they play - oh and yes, this was a quote of ppl that actually play wc3 for long time so don't start saying it's a statement of some lvl7 noobs.

On June 11 2007 06:03 Dendra wrote:
put it simple - sc amateur community is in europe, major leagues, etc.
wc3 - like comparing driving a ferrari and a massive truck, sure ferrari looks nice and is cool but driving a truck is 10times harder, sc may not look nice, may not have hundreds of sponsors but the deal is - sc has started to attract many sponsors lately just because it is a competive game and the community simply doesn't die, if you think wc3 has so good gameplay and can "somehow" be a match to sc then i wonder how long will it live when sc2 comes out, dota+wow+sc2-end of wc3. people don't want to play hard games where they learn basics for years, they want games like wc3 where even a blind dog can't mess up the build order 1st time he plays and after a week or a month depending on the person learns all the basics of wc3 and much more. wc3 is a micro arena, it's much easier to think about strategical options when you have so little to think about, in sc you have major macro problems on your back and it's much harder to think while you play in sc, you're just so busy trying to make everything work, in wc3 everything works on its own, you just gotta press that mouse button and move your army.

On June 11 2007 14:42 lololol wrote:
Lets look realisticly, shall we, it will have an AMM 100% and most likely you won't be able to create ladder games manually, because of the ton of possible abuses with this, it would need heavy restrictions and most likely an admin team to make decisions(and Blizz won't pay for such a team, when they have a much less problematic AMM) or players will just abuse it and decapitate the ladder like they did with SC:BW.

On June 11 2007 14:55 Doctorasul wrote:
Dendra, is it just me or are you saying if people weren't forced to chat to get a game, no one would bother talking to you?

On June 11 2007 16:54 Dendra wrote:
sure amm has good points like you said, nobody quits your game- that's why even 1sec games count which sux but nvm, you can't cancel that game while in sc if you disc or whatever before game started to develope admin looks at it and makes it a draw.

abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him. We do everything and that's something i like about sc as a game and sc as a community. we don't need blizzard to fix out maps, add a new item/shop on a map so we stop crying how imba it is, only thing blizzard does is releasing a new patch every year that fixes god knows what and thats it. 1.15 is the biggest thing they've done in years and it's the worst patch ever at the same time, there are a couple of things they messed up with the patch related to the game itself but i won't go into details. point is we live on our own for years, how many patches did blizzard release for wc3 and how old is the game?

in sc we have channels where the whole world meets, ladder channels, private servers where ppl don't go because they dont have original sc (like in wc3 where ppl tell me like - you dont have to play on that private server ladder, you have original key ffs), ppl go there to play a competitive ladder, to train, hell if ladder is good the prestige of higher ranks is huge, you can abuse no matter how much and still if you're like on top of ladder that means something and such cases are rare, mostly they get banned before they reach half way to top and the whole top ranking is taken over by koreans, a plague which you in wc3 luckily don't have to deal with (and no, moon+company can't compare with the skill difference of koreans in bw)

amm is good if you're lazy, but ladder doesn't have to be only about realistic rank, if it was like that then we'd have the ranking system chess uses and i sure don't see a balanced ranking system in wc3 - i find our old PGT system much more stable and yet even it had flaws, so to say. it's hard making a good ladder, combination of amm+manual search would be best, amm is a great thing, easier match finding, etc.

in sc2 it will obviusly be amm only since sc community is unique, just look at our topics, whenever there is a poll online sc community rises and floods the poll just to make sc no1, kinda reminds me of rich and poor kids, wc3 has blizzard watching over it and still has major things to get fixed to balance the game more, sc has only itself, just browse net a bit and see how easy it is to find bw utilities on hundreds of sites, wc3 is nowhere near it, even the wc3chart sux compared to bwchart and besides that, our community has produced even more programs, for like eapm, etc. if we had amm system i doubt sites like ggnet, wgtour, tlnet, etc. would exist,

trying to switch the direction into a psycho discussion "people can chat even with amm, manual search doesnt force them to chat", but the community speaks for itself, blizzard could've stopped patching at 1.13f and it would be fine, try to remove wc3 patches and it won't be the same, if blizzard stopped paying attention to wc3 slowly the community would flow towards other games, in sc x times i saw questions each year "has blizzard forgotten us?" and yet i saw this year more ppl come on net than the people that left bw last year, game is still here, communities are growing, now sc2 has been announced so it's like a noob paradise and we're getting a flood of wannabes who wish to learn sc so they get "easier start" in sc2, they will leave, some might fall in love with sc and stay, the core of sc will remain, sc is only one, it has survived wc3 and all the cool games, sure sponsors prefer taking games like Die Hard or whatever gets the money flowing, but wcg still has sc, korea still has it, it's spreading over asia, in latin america it's growing rapidly-thx to an effort of people who happen to like sc, that's our community, prolly strongest gaming community ever and it's for sure thx to wgtour/pgtour, both non-amm ladders.

On June 11 2007 17:12 Carnac wrote:
just give up, manitou. dendra has proven way too often that he doesn't know anything and just talks nonsense all day long. it's really not worth it

On June 11 2007 16:54 Dendra wrote:
sure amm has good points like you said, nobody quits your game- that's why even 1sec games count which sux but nvm, you can't cancel that game while in sc if you disc or whatever before game started to develope admin looks at it and makes it a draw.

abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him. We do everything and that's something i like about sc as a game and sc as a community. we don't need blizzard to fix out maps, add a new item/shop on a map so we stop crying how imba it is, only thing blizzard does is releasing a new patch every year that fixes god knows what and thats it. 1.15 is the biggest thing they've done in years and it's the worst patch ever at the same time, there are a couple of things they messed up with the patch related to the game itself but i won't go into details. point is we live on our own for years, how many patches did blizzard release for wc3 and how old is the game?

in sc we have channels where the whole world meets, ladder channels, private servers where ppl don't go because they dont have original sc (like in wc3 where ppl tell me like - you dont have to play on that private server ladder, you have original key ffs), ppl go there to play a competitive ladder, to train, hell if ladder is good the prestige of higher ranks is huge, you can abuse no matter how much and still if you're like on top of ladder that means something and such cases are rare, mostly they get banned before they reach half way to top and the whole top ranking is taken over by koreans, a plague which you in wc3 luckily don't have to deal with (and no, moon+company can't compare with the skill difference of koreans in bw)

amm is good if you're lazy, but ladder doesn't have to be only about realistic rank, if it was like that then we'd have the ranking system chess uses and i sure don't see a balanced ranking system in wc3 - i find our old PGT system much more stable and yet even it had flaws, so to say. it's hard making a good ladder, combination of amm+manual search would be best, amm is a great thing, easier match finding, etc.

in sc2 it will obviusly be amm only since sc community is unique, just look at our topics, whenever there is a poll online sc community rises and floods the poll just to make sc no1, kinda reminds me of rich and poor kids, wc3 has blizzard watching over it and still has major things to get fixed to balance the game more, sc has only itself, just browse net a bit and see how easy it is to find bw utilities on hundreds of sites, wc3 is nowhere near it, even the wc3chart sux compared to bwchart and besides that, our community has produced even more programs, for like eapm, etc. if we had amm system i doubt sites like ggnet, wgtour, tlnet, etc. would exist,

trying to switch the direction into a psycho discussion "people can chat even with amm, manual search doesnt force them to chat", but the community speaks for itself, blizzard could've stopped patching at 1.13f and it would be fine, try to remove wc3 patches and it won't be the same, if blizzard stopped paying attention to wc3 slowly the community would flow towards other games, in sc x times i saw questions each year "has blizzard forgotten us?" and yet i saw this year more ppl come on net than the people that left bw last year, game is still here, communities are growing, now sc2 has been announced so it's like a noob paradise and we're getting a flood of wannabes who wish to learn sc so they get "easier start" in sc2, they will leave, some might fall in love with sc and stay, the core of sc will remain, sc is only one, it has survived wc3 and all the cool games, sure sponsors prefer taking games like Die Hard or whatever gets the money flowing, but wcg still has sc, korea still has it, it's spreading over asia, in latin america it's growing rapidly-thx to an effort of people who happen to like sc, that's our community, prolly strongest gaming community ever and it's for sure thx to wgtour/pgtour, both non-amm ladders.

abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him.

On June 11 2007 18:34 exo6yte wrote:


It worked with PGT because it was a pretty small population. If SC2 is huge, that won't work at all.

On June 12 2007 02:06 Dendra wrote:

so be it - mess up sc2 all you want, leave sc alone. anything "smart" implemented put as optional.

On June 12 2007 03:09 FrozenArbiter wrote:

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

On June 12 2007 04:12 Dendra wrote:


I'm talking about options they keep implementing from wc3 to sc, like rally point on freakin mouse button which is the dumbest thing ever to be added in sc, i'm talking about amm if they implement it in sc2 and decide to make all games have it and in that case make it as optional in sc because we dont need amm.

On June 12 2007 04:12 Dendra wrote:


I'm talking about options they keep implementing from wc3 to sc, like rally point on freakin mouse button which is the dumbest thing ever to be added in sc, i'm talking about amm if they implement it in sc2 and decide to make all games have it and in that case make it as optional in sc because we dont need amm.

On May 21 2007 15:58 Manifesto7 wrote:About auto-matching, I think Ashur said it best when he called it hunting. People on ladders like to select their prey. Maybe it is good, maybe it leads to a lot of TvP Luna D++ spam, but people generally like to have more control over the people they play, even if it is just their impression of the id.

Have it there for people who like it, and then have the manual creation and ladder channel for those who dont.

On May 21 2007 16:23 MyLostTemple wrote:the problems can involve getting put against asshole disconnectors who you would probably avoid normally due to their number of disconects. bm players can be a problem too.

On May 21 2007 18:42 Krohm wrote:AMM, was handy. However you should also have the ability to just ladder 1:1 who ever you want (Challenge). I don't always enjoy playing 'randos'. Also Koreans WILL be playing SC, most of the time I refuse to play Koreans since they just simply own my ass. If I use AMM depending on the time of day, I'll probably have to face off against a Korean.

On June 04 2007 12:45 travis wrote:
its only great if it works quickly

On June 05 2007 12:02 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if it's possible to check out match lists, someone who plays only one matchup on one match gets little credit for his skill.

On June 10 2007 00:11 Dendra wrote:

well i don't see sc players switching to brainless iq 10 games like dota.

On June 12 2007 10:06 SoleSteeler wrote:
Not really, it's more like an AMM makes a community more active, bigger, stronger.

A game could still have a good community without an AMM, but it would be better with one.

On June 12 2007 09:49 Dendra wrote:
amm is necessary to keep a weak community together, hence it will be great for sc2, though they should better focus on game itself more than the ladder, ladder can be balanced easily, if the game sux no ladder will save it :D like age of empires series and such, community is a zero compared to sc/wc3.

On June 12 2007 10:45 Carnac wrote:
why do the nonsense statements out of your mouth never stop? it's not like the fact that they are working on a better ladder system would make other aspects of the game worse
lol wtf

On June 12 2007 12:02 Dendra wrote:

judging by what they've done so far they better pay full attention to the game cuz there's a whole lotta pressure on their backs and last few games with high expectations(Mostly fps from what i remember) failed in the end, the company postponed it forever because they needed more time blabla and in the end the game sucked, wasting time on figuring out a perfect ladder would not be advisable, they'll prolly just copy+paste wc3 ladder or whatever even though it's far from perfect.

On June 06 2007 21:21 raz0rtail wrote:
I would prefer the WC3 AMM system in the era of ROC. It was very hard to get to high level, and when you reach top, searching game was real pain in the a$$.

My suggestion would be some thing like VIP lobby. When you reach certain level, you could join the lobby and create, join games that count toward the ladder system.

On June 12 2007 12:02 Dendra wrote:

judging by what they've done so far they better pay full attention to the game cuz there's a whole lotta pressure on their backs and last few games with high expectations(Mostly fps from what i remember) failed in the end, the company postponed it forever because they needed more time blabla and in the end the game sucked, wasting time on figuring out a perfect ladder would not be advisable, they'll prolly just copy+paste wc3 ladder or whatever even though it's far from perfect.

On June 12 2007 18:21 fanta[Rn] wrote:
jacen kicks ass.

On June 12 2007 18:11 Manit0u wrote:


FFS have you ever tried to play WC3? The amm/ladder there works like that:
1: it tries to pair you with similar oponent (similar win ratio, if you abuse this like people who get 1-300 stats first to get easy oponents - and you get more for win than you lose for losing- you get banned)
2: if you reach top 6/10 (don't remember the numbers) in the ladder season you get to play with the pros at different gateway (only available to such people)

Damn, I'm drunk, people please correct me if I'm wrong.

On June 13 2007 06:45 Carnac wrote:
bw.de is supposed to tell me what exactly in this context?

you simply make zero sense at all. what you claim to be one of the best things of a manual ladder is in fact garbage. a newb who gets raped by a very good player doesn't learn anything, the best way to learn is to play people who are slightly better than you and for the good player it's a total waste of time to play the newb. you're claiming the opposite, this combined with your other posts in this thread = you're retarded.

On June 13 2007 07:25 Carnac wrote:
yes, but he can play just as well with anyone else, which is why I explained to you that what you think is an advantage is in fact none. I just went half a step ahead to make a better point -.-

and no, i don't know what you're talking about, so please elaborate

On June 13 2007 08:32 Dendra wrote:
it's of no interest to me to go deeper into bw.de subject.hf

On June 13 2007 09:51 SoleSteeler wrote:
Well.

When you are at the top ~50 or so on the ladder right now in War3, after a certain, known cut off date , the people in the top 50 are entered in a special ladder for a few weeks, where the top 16 players get to compete for the world finals. It's not top 6/10 or whatever poor drunk Manit0u said.

So people try really hard to qualify for this then... well, the tournament continues? This is the ladder finals. I don't see how this is bad at all >_< These aren't just people who are simply GOOD, these are the top players in War3. I couldn't play with Savior in BW now, could I?

On June 13 2007 11:31 silynxer wrote:
Wow Dendra really is the king of internet discussion retards.

On June 13 2007 09:51 SoleSteeler wrote:
Well.

When you are at the top ~50 or so on the ladder right now in War3, after a certain, known cut off date , the people in the top 50 are entered in a special ladder for a few weeks, where the top 16 players get to compete for the world finals. It's not top 6/10 or whatever poor drunk Manit0u said.

So people try really hard to qualify for this then... well, the tournament continues? This is the ladder finals. I don't see how this is bad at all >_< These aren't just people who are simply GOOD, these are the top players in War3. I couldn't play with Savior in BW now, could I?

dont compare sc and wc3 top class players. here we have noobs, top class non-koreans, problem is these top class non-koreans are like noobs compared to the top class koreans. on our ladder progamers dont play, so no matter if you had this amm thingey the progamers wouldn't waste their time on playing some roflmao ladder vs some low-class chobos.
wc3 is still far from reaching it's peak skill wise, hence whole world is equal in it, you got wc3 gosus from all over the world.

on a side note - progamers do play our ladder from time to time, though it's mostly the lower class progamers and then Everyone on the ladder has a chance of playing against them, not just the top16,30 or whatever. Comparing wc3 with sc is like comparing any sport in female and male competition, in tennis for example nadal/federer are freaking imba perfection gaming style players, chix just scream around, same goes here, it's 10 times easier to get to the highest level in wc3 than in sc, hence lotta people just want to play a game vs someone better while it would normally take them years of training to get close to their level and maybe play them - this way you get a memorable game even if you aint skilled enough. what you guys call pros in wc3 we can call just an average sc players who have mastered the micro basics, there are tons of people with "perfect" micro, doing all the trivial things and nobody mentions them, in wc3 when someone does a crazy micro stunt he's called godlike - doh, it's easy to think and micro when that's only thing you have to do, like many said before, what makes sc so hard is that you do tons of thins at same time and have to think+manage your army, etc.

On June 13 2007 15:37 Dendra wrote:
useless debating why amm would suck in sc unless it was implemented as optional, no use explaining good sides of our ladder since we dont have so big prize money and even if we did i doubt coaches of progaming teams would allow their players to play on those ladders before tournaments and stuff like that, progaming is on a "bit" higher level in sc than in wc3, problem is wc3 is big in europe and a disaster in korea so you know more about wc3 progaming and very little about korean progaming. players like grubby wouldn't stand a chance in bw, europeans have good knowledge of the game, can be very smart players, but pure hardcore training 24/7 makes it impssible to be a pro in sc, the things you can improve in sc go beyond a mere "list", hence the difference is so big.

wc3 amm - good, sc2 amm - good, sc amm - only as optional because ppl are used to playing this way, just like it's impossible to explain to a wc3 gamer that sc is superior in every aspect so is impossible to explain that cs 1.6 is superior to css, you dont get it until you understand it. amm is a good thing but we dont need it in sc ladder - it would be more useful to put it in public games. -end?-

sc2 amm - good

On June 13 2007 18:13 SoleSteeler wrote:
Look Dendra, I've been playing BW longer than you have. I am not a 'war3 player', I am a RTSer. I know perfectly well all about BW and how popular it is and how it's on a higher level than War3. I also clearly recognize that BW is a better game overall than War3.



case closed!

On June 14 2007 12:43 XythOs wrote:
Dendra, u know we are talking about SC II AMM do you?