EPTThoughts on auto-matchmaking - Page 6
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
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SoleSteeler
Canada5427 Posts
On June 04 2007 20:35 Dendra wrote: sure you could abuse leaving the game just like you can do it in sc, it just means amm would require alot of adjustements and this 1sec victory thing would be a big issue. what does this even mean? can you give us an example of an 'adjustment' that would prevent people from leaving after 1 second when they don't get a match up they like, a map they want, or they are playing someone they wouldn't beat? The ladder is supposed to be a true measure of skill. It's not supposed to be a tool where you can practice your matchups on a certain map, that's what custom games are for. Random opponents of your skill level, randomly picked map from a mappool, that's the way to go to show a truly skill based ladder. The trick is getting the ranks to properly reflect that. War3's AMM was good, it had it's pros and cons in both versions, pre-1.14 and after, in regards to this. While it's true that someone could 'mass game' and get 'near' the top (top 100 or so) in the post-1.14 ladder, the best players could play like 100 games and be #1, while the 'mass gamer' would need 600+ games to break close to that. | ||
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Sadist
United States7233 Posts
[B] just for the record - the most idiotic thing ever to be implemented in sc is the right click rally point, that has become like the only command in game with two hotkeys...i don't see siege tank mode hotkey on letters S and T for example - to avoid confusion. in my games it happend millions of times that one of my 10+ gates suddenly has a rally point on x point on the map - thx to the right click thing.i still use good old r+left click, call it a habit. every time blizzard starts adding things from wc3 they should make it as Optional. right click has caused so much pain with rally problems=[ its nice in some situations, but compeletly sucks in others. Id ont know how many times ive had like a grouind of marine medic tank vessel, and gone 1-2-3-4-5 all right clicking to get them to move to a spot, and have 5 be a barracks and set my rally all fucked up in the center of the map | ||
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Sadist
United States7233 Posts
On June 05 2007 04:46 Liquid`Drone wrote: i pretty much love right click rally point. while you can always argue that making it optional is preferable, I think a very, very small minority actually minds it being there by default. its nice when you aer tryingto rally guys to someones base or whatever, or the middle of the map (or before the building is built), however the siutuation i mentioned sucks, i wish there was a way to turn it off and on. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
But choices are always nice, so why not both for those who prefer to play specific players. | ||
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profeki
Angola4 Posts
Tychus Findlay fansite | ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12235 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
thus I cannot see the harm of this. the problem denying people the ability to pick opponents (through people wanting to play against eachother simply not playing ladder, which IS a problem.. ) is much greater than the disadvantage it gives. I recall so many great sets of games between great players on wgtour, tltour, etc, that could not have taken place with AMM. allowing the community to follow how their preferred players fare in bo5 or bo7 games against other great players is great entertainment, and allowing people to play bo5 or bo7 games is also great. there being a ladder which people whom normally play practice games against eachother can play ladder games against eachother instead just makes everything sweeter; I know that during TLT etc I played many awesome series of games against players that I would normally be able to play normal practice games with too, however the games being ladder added another significance to the games and made them even better. the option for picking map and opponent to play against is a necessity. I know that I personally would often not have played ladder if it was not possible, and this could end up being the case for sc2 too if AMM is implemented; many of the best players might avoid the ladder if they are forced into playing random maps against random players as opposed to being allowed to play bo5 games against people they enjoy playing on maps they want to play. the slight disadvantage of the abuse it allows, and that people can choose to only play 1 map or 1 matchup, which is something, if the ladder is designed correctly anyone can check out for themselves, is insignificant. amm is a great tool for early levels of ladder, people who take no part in the community, and people who just want a quick random game. at the higher levels, the option for manual matchmaking is a necessity, or many of the best players simply will not take part, and this is much worse than some people getting an inflated score. | ||
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Dendra
Croatia801 Posts
in sc sometimes players agree to remake, in wc3 there is no negotiation, pure robo system, imagine that in sc - you B+ rank get amm with a B-, like some players like to play higher ranks to get to A+++ faster, just like there are noobs with 300-20 stats and b+ rank. i like it this way, it's up to you to realise dodging skilled people so you can have "pro stats" is pointless,i don't need someone to guide me by my hand - ok timmy, now go and play with that boy over there, and be nice. in sc you can play on one map, vs one race, you can TRAIN much more than you can in wc3, it's up to you to use the system to the maximum. there will always be noobs, hackers, dodgers, discers, crybabies, god knows what, it's part of the game, amm=optional ftw. rally point=optional ftw. in wc3 it works because you can hotkey everything under 1number and reset rally to wherever you want since you do one thing at a time mostly. In sc when you're macroing from 3000 gates, doing 3000 battles, watching the map and so on you can't afford being a sherlock and figuring out which one of the gates has the rally point messed up. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
Also a non automatchmaking system seems so abuse-able to me. This seems the best way to have a competitive ladder, eventually you'll get matched against good people only anyway. And besides that you can still have fun hang out or w/e in custom games. That's just my 2 cents. | ||
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Dendra
Croatia801 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On June 05 2007 12:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: if it's possible to check out match lists, someone who plays only one matchup on one match gets little credit for his skill. it's also normally impossible to get top 16 or whatever playing only one matchup (at least I cannot recall anyone being top 16 on any competitive ladder while only playing one matchup) thus I cannot see the harm of this. the problem denying people the ability to pick opponents (through people wanting to play against eachother simply not playing ladder, which IS a problem.. ) is much greater than the disadvantage it gives. I recall so many great sets of games between great players on wgtour, tltour, etc, that could not have taken place with AMM. allowing the community to follow how their preferred players fare in bo5 or bo7 games against other great players is great entertainment, and allowing people to play bo5 or bo7 games is also great. there being a ladder which people whom normally play practice games against eachother can play ladder games against eachother instead just makes everything sweeter; I know that during TLT etc I played many awesome series of games against players that I would normally be able to play normal practice games with too, however the games being ladder added another significance to the games and made them even better. the option for picking map and opponent to play against is a necessity. I know that I personally would often not have played ladder if it was not possible, and this could end up being the case for sc2 too if AMM is implemented; many of the best players might avoid the ladder if they are forced into playing random maps against random players as opposed to being allowed to play bo5 games against people they enjoy playing on maps they want to play. the slight disadvantage of the abuse it allows, and that people can choose to only play 1 map or 1 matchup, which is something, if the ladder is designed correctly anyone can check out for themselves, is insignificant. amm is a great tool for early levels of ladder, people who take no part in the community, and people who just want a quick random game. at the higher levels, the option for manual matchmaking is a necessity, or many of the best players simply will not take part, and this is much worse than some people getting an inflated score. They could easily implement BoX options or rematch options through AMM. And you could thumb down maps that you dislike. I fail to see how these would be major problems through a AMM ladder. | ||
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SpiritAshura
United States1271 Posts
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Dendra
Croatia801 Posts
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Heen
Korea (South)2178 Posts
It's rather ironic that you would make the analogy between noob hunting and maphacking... because playing AMM ladder is up to you too! Ladder (auto) --> skill Custom (manual) --> practice See the difference now? No one is stopping anyone from choosing his opponents. If you want to play this really cool guy you met last week, then do as you please. On the other side will be AMM where real men will be playing and not dodging. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28669 Posts
On June 05 2007 17:06 Aphelion wrote: They could easily implement BoX options or rematch options through AMM. And you could thumb down maps that you dislike. I fail to see how these would be major problems through a AMM ladder. rematching could be possible, but picking initial opponent could not. if thumbing down every map cept 1 is possible, which it would have to be for my points to not be valid, then why even have random map in the first place. I remember playing various ladders in the past where famous players were playing, before I got really good and famous myself, and seeing someone famous in the channel. I'd be overjoyed about asking them for game and getting to play them. you didn't address the part of my post revolving around creating a community feeling.. amm is great for just playing games over and over. some people want to do this. some of you think that those who want to talk to their opponents should just play melee instead of ladder. I'm saying that many of the best players will avoid playing ladder if they have no possibility of choosing opponent.. why can't a ladder both be fun, practice and something to climb, rather than only something to climb? im certain an amm ladder could and would be great. im just also certain that many players will prefer playing in their own communities instead. I recall during the first year of starcraft, I'd hang around in Ladder Challenges, noticing all these bigname players.. I'd want to play them, and getting games with them became a reason for getting a higher score in ladder, just so they would accept a game against me. if everyone just hangs out in random channels and whimsically decides to play ladder every now and then, the community feeling around the ladder disappears. ladder challenges was a lot more than a place to ask people for ladder games. it was absolutely sweet. | ||
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EmS.Radagast
Israel280 Posts
I recall during the first year of starcraft, I'd hang around in Ladder Challenges, noticing all these bigname players.. I'd want to play them, and getting games with them became a reason for getting a higher score in ladder, just so they would accept a game against me. so with AMM ladder, the same thing will happen... you will want to have a really good rating to have the gosu players accept practice games against you. What does it matter if you play those gosus on ladder or not? | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
[QUOTE]On June 05 2007 17:06 Aphelion wrote: [QUOTE]On June 05 2007 12:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm saying that many of the best players will avoid playing ladder if they have no possibility of choosing opponent.. why can't a ladder both be fun, practice and something to climb, rather than only something to climb? [/QUOTE] That won't be true if there are tournaments and other events based upon the ladder. As for your other objections, I suspect they might be a necessary price to pay for an accurate ladder. | ||
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SpiritAshura
United States1271 Posts
[QUOTE]On June 06 2007 01:24 Liquid`Drone wrote: [QUOTE]On June 05 2007 17:06 Aphelion wrote: [QUOTE]On June 05 2007 12:02 Liquid`Drone wrote: I'm saying that many of the best players will avoid playing ladder if they have no possibility of choosing opponent.. why can't a ladder both be fun, practice and something to climb, rather than only something to climb? [/QUOTE] That won't be true if there are tournaments and other events based upon the ladder. As for your other objections, I suspect they might be a necessary price to pay for an accurate ladder.[/QUOTE] or they might just do season tournaments and create an entirely separate ladder for the higher skilled players to play on like they did in warcraft III as well. | ||
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Dendra
Croatia801 Posts
On June 06 2007 02:09 EmS.Radagast wrote: so with AMM ladder, the same thing will happen... you will want to have a really good rating to have the gosu players accept practice games against you. What does it matter if you play those gosus on ladder or not? you don't get it, do you? in bw when you're unknown you wanna get same rank as some big name player to get him to play you, if you're same rank there's possibility they'll ask you for a game and no matter if you just finished a whole-night lan and you're freaking dead you'll still want to play. big names play with you in that way, automatch separates people, decreases the channel communication. in our system we have channels where we communicate before we play, in most cases big names come on that channel to play ladder games, not to give some fun non-ladder games to random noobs who admire them, so in your system not only do we not have a mutual ladder channel but it's also highly unlikely you'll catch some big name on bnet and get him to play you - it's like in bw when you come on some famous channel and ask for a game there is little chance some big name will play you, but on ladder at the start of the season any noob can play with the most gosu players of that ladder. lots of times i played vs someone better, after bo3 he got one rank higher and didnt want more ladder games so i asked for non-ladder for the sake of training and we played some more or if he didn't want to play i tried hard to get the same rank so we play again.. i didn't play a single bo3 with anyone on wc3 since you can't choose your opponent, one game and gg, lots of times in our system people will play 3, 5, hell even 10 games, i want that option to stay. | ||
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