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On June 06 2007 04:45 Dendra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2007 02:09 EmS.Radagast wrote:
I recall during the first year of starcraft, I'd hang around in Ladder Challenges, noticing all these bigname players.. I'd want to play them, and getting games with them became a reason for getting a higher score in ladder, just so they would accept a game against me.
so with AMM ladder, the same thing will happen... you will want to have a really good rating to have the gosu players accept practice games against you. What does it matter if you play those gosus on ladder or not? you don't get it, do you? in bw when you're unknown you wanna get same rank as some big name player to get him to play you, if you're same rank there's possibility they'll ask you for a game and no matter if you just finished a whole-night lan and you're freaking dead you'll still want to play. big names play with you in that way, automatch separates people, decreases the channel communication. in our system we have channels where we communicate before we play, in most cases big names come on that channel to play ladder games, not to give some fun non-ladder games to random noobs who admire them, so in your system not only do we not have a mutual ladder channel but it's also highly unlikely you'll catch some big name on bnet and get him to play you - it's like in bw when you come on some famous channel and ask for a game there is little chance some big name will play you, but on ladder at the start of the season any noob can play with the most gosu players of that ladder. lots of times i played vs someone better, after bo3 he got one rank higher and didnt want more ladder games so i asked for non-ladder for the sake of training and we played some more or if he didn't want to play i tried hard to get the same rank so we play again.. i didn't play a single bo3 with anyone on wc3 since you can't choose your opponent, one game and gg, lots of times in our system people will play 3, 5, hell even 10 games, i want that option to stay.
Play as many rematches as you want, just don't expect to get any ladder points out of it. The ladder is meant for skill and customs are meant for fun and practice. The only way to create a fair ladder is to make you unable to choose whom your opponent will be.
Aren't the big names likely to sit around in their probably locked clan channels and only play practice games against their clan members anyhow?
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On June 06 2007 05:22 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2007 04:45 Dendra wrote:On June 06 2007 02:09 EmS.Radagast wrote:
I recall during the first year of starcraft, I'd hang around in Ladder Challenges, noticing all these bigname players.. I'd want to play them, and getting games with them became a reason for getting a higher score in ladder, just so they would accept a game against me.
so with AMM ladder, the same thing will happen... you will want to have a really good rating to have the gosu players accept practice games against you. What does it matter if you play those gosus on ladder or not? you don't get it, do you? in bw when you're unknown you wanna get same rank as some big name player to get him to play you, if you're same rank there's possibility they'll ask you for a game and no matter if you just finished a whole-night lan and you're freaking dead you'll still want to play. big names play with you in that way, automatch separates people, decreases the channel communication. in our system we have channels where we communicate before we play, in most cases big names come on that channel to play ladder games, not to give some fun non-ladder games to random noobs who admire them, so in your system not only do we not have a mutual ladder channel but it's also highly unlikely you'll catch some big name on bnet and get him to play you - it's like in bw when you come on some famous channel and ask for a game there is little chance some big name will play you, but on ladder at the start of the season any noob can play with the most gosu players of that ladder. lots of times i played vs someone better, after bo3 he got one rank higher and didnt want more ladder games so i asked for non-ladder for the sake of training and we played some more or if he didn't want to play i tried hard to get the same rank so we play again.. i didn't play a single bo3 with anyone on wc3 since you can't choose your opponent, one game and gg, lots of times in our system people will play 3, 5, hell even 10 games, i want that option to stay. Play as many rematches as you want, just don't expect to get any ladder points out of it. The ladder is meant for skill and customs are meant for fun and practice. The only way to create a fair ladder is to make you unable to choose whom your opponent will be.
hillarious, so having an option to play bo5 vs someone makes the ladder imbalanced? only thing that makes the ladder imbalanced is the rating system, to make a ladder balanced you'd prolly need to combine several types of rating system cuz on old PGT you could climb up in ranks with 50-50 score. problem is that lower level players give up quickly if they get stuck on the lowest rank, so i guess making it easy to progress at start is a must-have for the sake of chobos.
playing random people is not effective, with manual search you can climb up much faster, train much more, have higher communication+it's obvius that with random search in wc3 they had to make separate ladders, i never noticed our ladders separating freakish koreans from the rest of the crew, we're all in the same pot, no matter if you have stats 100-0 or 0-100, that way when you see you're rank is #999 then you really are #999 on that ladder, including the 1st 300 spots that are overtaken by the koreans (not that much but mentioned it for the sake of an example)
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AMM isn't random. AMM calculates an ELO rating for you and tries to match you up with someone else of a similar ELO rating. If it doesn't find anyone close it'll go farther and farther away from you in skill. Wouldn't call this random.
Also being able to climb in score with a 50-50 rating isn't an actual problem. Maybe those 50 wins were against more skilled people and those 50 losses against equal people? Any ELO based system would make that person climb.
I wasn't aware of any separate ladders except that the ladder is server specific. That makes allot of sense since a ladder ranking is only relative to the people you play against so you can't compare a ranking on one server to the ranking of another.
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Norway28669 Posts
On June 06 2007 05:22 Zironic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2007 04:45 Dendra wrote:On June 06 2007 02:09 EmS.Radagast wrote:
I recall during the first year of starcraft, I'd hang around in Ladder Challenges, noticing all these bigname players.. I'd want to play them, and getting games with them became a reason for getting a higher score in ladder, just so they would accept a game against me.
so with AMM ladder, the same thing will happen... you will want to have a really good rating to have the gosu players accept practice games against you. What does it matter if you play those gosus on ladder or not? you don't get it, do you? in bw when you're unknown you wanna get same rank as some big name player to get him to play you, if you're same rank there's possibility they'll ask you for a game and no matter if you just finished a whole-night lan and you're freaking dead you'll still want to play. big names play with you in that way, automatch separates people, decreases the channel communication. in our system we have channels where we communicate before we play, in most cases big names come on that channel to play ladder games, not to give some fun non-ladder games to random noobs who admire them, so in your system not only do we not have a mutual ladder channel but it's also highly unlikely you'll catch some big name on bnet and get him to play you - it's like in bw when you come on some famous channel and ask for a game there is little chance some big name will play you, but on ladder at the start of the season any noob can play with the most gosu players of that ladder. lots of times i played vs someone better, after bo3 he got one rank higher and didnt want more ladder games so i asked for non-ladder for the sake of training and we played some more or if he didn't want to play i tried hard to get the same rank so we play again.. i didn't play a single bo3 with anyone on wc3 since you can't choose your opponent, one game and gg, lots of times in our system people will play 3, 5, hell even 10 games, i want that option to stay. Play as many rematches as you want, just don't expect to get any ladder points out of it. The ladder is meant for skill and customs are meant for fun and practice. The only way to create a fair ladder is to make you unable to choose whom your opponent will be. Aren't the big names likely to sit around in their probably locked clan channels and only play practice games against their clan members anyhow?
no, the big names are likely to sit around in their own private channels only playing practice games against eachother if there is no option for manual ladder matchmaking. if the option exists, the big names are likely to take part of the community encircling the ladder, because they can choose to play their practice games against other bigname friends of theirs on ladder. in addition to this, they'll play other people. if every single ladder game they play has to be against some random person, it's likely that they will drop the ladder completely in favour of only playing against their friends. and if you're some random person, you normally won't get to play rematches against the bigname players because the bigname players do not feel like giving you a rematch unless they can get ladder points from it.
amm does have some benefits regarding ladder accuracy. but lacking the option for manual matchmaking is likely to have the consequence that the best players will not play. who cares if the ladder is accurate if the best players play elsewhere?
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With any remotely fair ladder system it would still need to incorporate ELO. With ELO any win that a big name scores against a no name won't give them any points worth mentioning however if they lose they can loose a huge chunk of points. I don't see the benefit of a big name playing an ELO game against a no name to playing a non ranked game.
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Norway28669 Posts
the rating part is wholly insignificant to my arguement. there's a period of time on every ladder where some big name player is ranked similarly to players lacking in fame. AMM kills the entire community feel of the ladder, because even if you fight hard to attain a rating where you can get to play against some player you really want to play against (I've several times told people who asked me for melee game in wgtour that they should get a rating 1 lower than my own, and then I would play them), it's still random who you end up playing against.
brood war players lacking fame but who follow the community have always had preferred famous players and players they really wanted to play, for whatever reason. ladders has always been a tool potentially enabling those players to get a shot at playing those players.. amm kills some of the incentive to play the ladder both for the worse player, because it's still random whom he ends up facing, and for the better player, because he cannot play practice games against his friends there. having only AMM and no option for manual matchmaking will decrease ladder activity a whole lot. people want to be allowed to choose whom they play against.. potential of abuse and people getting stats or a rating slightly higher than the one they would get with AMM is a much lesser problem than the problems not letting people choose their opponents would create.
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Norway28669 Posts
don't underestimate the community.. brood war would not have been around with this kind of vitality for 9 years without it, no matter how great of a game it is. having a channel where people can ask for games, and where worse players can gather together with the better players, is important for this. hell, I even know of people whom would take screenshots after saying hi to someone famous and getting a hi back.. it matters a lot to some. if the bnet ladder is only AMM, either people will create another ladder that is not, or they simply will play much less ladder than they otherwise would.
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But people will be able to choose their opponents however much they want. It's just that they won't get ladder points for it. It's not like the AMM ladder suddenly makes it impossible to play practice games for fun. The most important thing for any ladder is that it represents true skill, if you can pick and choose the easiest match ups all the time it breaks the purpose of the ladder.
Warcraft 3 has been going strong for five years with AMM so I don't think AMM kills the community. The important thing would be proper support for clans/guilds/whatever so people can be as social as they want to be.
There will probably be other things from Warcraft 3 that will keep people playing the ladder and tournaments. Unlockable icons for X amounts of wins or maybe reaching X rank? Real prizes for winning in game tournaments? Prizes for the top ranked people each season? Plenty of reasons to be active on the ladder if you're skilled.
Another benefit of the AMM system is that the games are hosted through battle.net so Blizzard can actively scan for map hacks and other cheats used to make the ladder even more fair. In a game hosted by individuals they can't put such protections in place making the ladder even worse.
Theoretically they could put work into creating some kind of duel system where you can challenge another player to a match and it'll get hosted by battle.net with safety systems preventing excessive rematches for stat boosting or keep playing the same match ups / maps.
Also remember that the SC2 community will become huge, millions of players huge. You probably won't know who the good players are until a fair while after release and no channel will possibly be able to hold all the people that want to arrange a game without AMM.
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Not that I had any statistics at hand but isn't the Wc3 ladder activity much bigger than the one of BW ever was? The Wc3 way of playing "big names" (which seems to be a very important point too most of you) was or is tournaments (or mass laddering...). Since it's possible to be embedded into b.net and could even be reward the player ladderwise this seems alot more coherent than the abuse vulnerable BW system.
Everyone who is not coming from BW would ridicule it's ladder system and I don't see how Blizzard could want that.
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On June 06 2007 08:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
don't underestimate the community.. brood war would not have been around with this kind of vitality for 9 years without it, no matter how great of a game it is. having a channel where people can ask for games, and where worse players can gather together with the better players, is important for this. hell, I even know of people whom would take screenshots after saying hi to someone famous and getting a hi back.. it matters a lot to some. if the bnet ladder is only AMM, either people will create another ladder that is not, or they simply will play much less ladder than they otherwise would.
that is especially on us.west, "sea.s2: hi there", omg omg take screenshot asap "the nada" replied to me, all that mumbo jumbo hype, it's a cool part of bw gaming  personally i never was one of those people that jump around when they see some celebrity, but seeing ogogo 2names above mine on ladder channel sure made me jump around cuz back then he vanished from the scene and came back for one wgt season, played like 61 games or so.
when you start playing it can mean alot if some big name pays attention to you, gives you one game, like you are 10ranks different and he plays you melee, etc., there are a few players like that and it's cool to be able to play them.
chasing people in private channels won't work cuz either the guys are idle, having a private talk or not in a mood to play some "random kid" who bumped into their lair. kinda cool when you look at bw community, still going strong after all these years with its ups and downs.
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Well I for one love the pre-1.14 WC3 AMM. That thing was great, i could get a 1-1 game whenever i wanted. And noone bitched about me being too noob/pro for them -.-' we just got watched up togather and let the better man win.
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I would be willing to let people play like one bo5 or bo3 match against one opponent per week. Wouldn't really upset the ladder. AMM is necessary though
But drone, the top players will likely want to play the ladder anyways, look at war3, every few months they have bnet season finals with 20 000 dollars first prize etc., isn't that an incentive? >_<
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wc3 attracts players to the ladder with money, sc with quality. end of story.
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United States42695 Posts
On June 06 2007 08:00 Liquid`Drone wrote:
don't underestimate the community.. brood war would not have been around with this kind of vitality for 9 years without it, no matter how great of a game it is. having a channel where people can ask for games, and where worse players can gather together with the better players, is important for this. hell, I even know of people whom would take screenshots after saying hi to someone famous and getting a hi back.. it matters a lot to some. if the bnet ladder is only AMM, either people will create another ladder that is not, or they simply will play much less ladder than they otherwise would.
Quoted for truth. I'm far happier chilling out and gaming with my clan than massgaming pubbies. An AMM feature couldn't hurt as an option but I'd rarely use it myself. For me the community is the core and choosing your opponent is gaming within the community.
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Chill out guys,AMM rocks. There will be plenty of other leagues for you to play in using custom games. And no, it will not hurt the community in any way whatsoever.
If you can design an AMM system that does not require moderation against abuse and that let's you pick your opponents feel free to explain it. I'm sure blizzard would be happy to read about it.
AMM is a tool, it's not the only option you will have. There will still be channels, there will still be a huge community, there will still be "people whom would take screenshots after saying hi to someone famous and getting a hi back".
Instead of whining about amm you people should go to church and pray that sc2 owns face : )
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On June 06 2007 11:46 Dendra wrote:
wc3 attracts players to the ladder with money, sc with quality. end of story.
nice try... no valid point though
the professional players enjoy the game yes, but it's their living, they play in tournaments and such to win for money, not because the game they are playing is good
and we're talking about SC2 AMM, not war3's?
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auto match making is great. ive played wc3 and trust me once you get the matchmaking you wont look back i think. of course theyll have custom games along with the matchmaking games so you dont have to worry. it makes for a good ladder system where you can play people at your skill level.
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On June 06 2007 14:53 Bodom_Night wrote:
auto match making is great. ive played wc3 and trust me once you get the matchmaking you wont look back i think. of course theyll have custom games along with the matchmaking games so you dont have to worry. it makes for a good ladder system where you can play people at your skill level.
and trust me i looked back, as much as some sc players think it's annoying having a ladder channel where ppl keep flaming/shouting how they owned someone,etc. it's much worse on wc3, it's probably like somone said the new wave of players after the 1.14 version or whatever just like sc has it's own wave of bm generation in last 2years, but still you can play a ladder game and only get bothered by "you hack" msges from time to time, but it's nowhere near like wc3 where literally whole vocabulary is based on haha and noob.
dunno, whatever they do i just hope they make it all optional, whatever they wish put it in sc2, leave sc alone
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On June 06 2007 15:14 Dendra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2007 14:53 Bodom_Night wrote:
auto match making is great. ive played wc3 and trust me once you get the matchmaking you wont look back i think. of course theyll have custom games along with the matchmaking games so you dont have to worry. it makes for a good ladder system where you can play people at your skill level. and trust me i looked back, as much as some sc players think it's annoying having a ladder channel where ppl keep flaming/shouting how they owned someone,etc. it's much worse on wc3, it's probably like somone said the new wave of players after the 1.14 version or whatever just like sc has it's own wave of bm generation in last 2years, but still you can play a ladder game and only get bothered by "you hack" msges from time to time, but it's nowhere near like wc3 where literally whole vocabulary is based on haha and noob. dunno, whatever they do i just hope they make it all optional, whatever they wish put it in sc2, leave sc alone
And how exactly would you make a FAIR ladder system without AMM? And don't worry, they're not changing SC, they're just putting it in SC2. If you want to keep your ancient ladder system play plain old SC 
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On June 06 2007 15:14 Dendra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2007 14:53 Bodom_Night wrote:
auto match making is great. ive played wc3 and trust me once you get the matchmaking you wont look back i think. of course theyll have custom games along with the matchmaking games so you dont have to worry. it makes for a good ladder system where you can play people at your skill level. and trust me i looked back, as much as some sc players think it's annoying having a ladder channel where ppl keep flaming/shouting how they owned someone,etc. it's much worse on wc3, it's probably like somone said the new wave of players after the 1.14 version or whatever just like sc has it's own wave of bm generation in last 2years, but still you can play a ladder game and only get bothered by "you hack" msges from time to time, but it's nowhere near like wc3 where literally whole vocabulary is based on haha and noob. dunno, whatever they do i just hope they make it all optional, whatever they wish put it in sc2, leave sc alone
i dunno what level you were at in wc3 (since I'm sure that 50-55% and below players are like that a LOT more than people above that), but i never deal with that on US East or Europe. Once you get passed that, it's basically smooth sailing and just about always mannered.
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EPT
