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On June 09 2007 23:37 Dendra wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2007 07:49 Heen wrote:
What a load of bullshit. Dendra your dislike and ignorance of WC3 is so blatantly obvious it's really becoming painful to read your posts.
Do you even realize that you are pulling shit out of your ass?
I'm fine with the fact that you prefer the BW ladder (I would like to see both sides of this issue, really) but you make the most retarded arguments to support it. WC3 ladder is a disaster because I am forced to play BM opponents... right. And how the fuck would you tell if someone's really BM or not in BW if you're playing him for the first time?
How far have you gotten up the WC3 ladder? Because I'm starting to think you stopped at lvl 7 and that's the experience your basing your anti-WC3 opinions on.
Let's put aside for a second that your reasoning makes no sense. If, as you seem to have acknowledged, WC3 players smurf less, wouldn't that mean that they are LESS likely to be BM.
WC3 ladder page is excellent. Do you have a problem with it? errm, you can be 30+ on new ladder because a) the game is dead boring compared to sc, b) ladder rating system is f*** up. as for the smurfs=less bm thing, i explained already why ppl on wc3 are so bm - in sc ALL levels of players encounter each other often on ladder and honestly their bm is a bit more intelligent since i meet once every 10years a sc player who spams during game "haha, nobbo nooobooo", blablabla. errm...as for the wc3 ladder site - wow is nice, yet it's one retarded game, wc3 ladder site might be nice but you boys will never reach the community level of sc that pgt/wgt had. we have a freakin strong community compared to your wc3 which i'm pretty sure won't last long as sc since it's a noob-friendly, graphics whore and as such will be easily replaced by wc4/anything that looks nicer and is even more easy to play, and to add, it is already being replaced by dota which is even more "dumb-friendly style play" friendly, that's the majority of players wc3 has - half of them dont play sc cuz it's 2hard and they want to relax more when they play - oh and yes, this was a quote of ppl that actually play wc3 for long time so don't start saying it's a statement of some lvl7 noobs.
Seriously, you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about.
Sure, WC3 community might not be as large as BW one (although I think that ~70-80% of the BW community is located in Korea and US) but it doesn't change the fact that it is still a great game (and DotA is nice too, and it's NOT brainless) with a lot of people playing it, both amateurs and pros.
And arguments like "it's noob-friendly, graphics whore" just make me laugh, it's of course easy to pick up the basics in WC3 but it's really hard to get very good at it because of many factors you have to master. And what do you want from graphics? If something looks nice, does it automatically imply it's bad? It's NEWER than SC, designed for NEWER hardware/software thus having BETTER graphics and GREATER demands. But you probably wouldn't understand if I told you that nowadays if you want to make something competetive/famous you need some sponsors/partners and NO company that makes graphic cards for example will be sponsoring 10 years old game, they want new stuff that will be able to show their new engines and stuff. Big part (one of the biggest actually) of ALL competetive things is marketing and in the age of super fast computers and horrendous pace of development of new technologies you have to keep up to date with it.
...
I'm not gonna waste my time arguing with people who are just blind and show complete lack of reasoning.
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put it simple - sc amateur community is in europe, major leagues, etc.
wc3 - like comparing driving a ferrari and a massive truck, sure ferrari looks nice and is cool but driving a truck is 10times harder, sc may not look nice, may not have hundreds of sponsors but the deal is - sc has started to attract many sponsors lately just because it is a competive game and the community simply doesn't die, if you think wc3 has so good gameplay and can "somehow" be a match to sc then i wonder how long will it live when sc2 comes out, dota+wow+sc2-end of wc3. people don't want to play hard games where they learn basics for years, they want games like wc3 where even a blind dog can't mess up the build order 1st time he plays and after a week or a month depending on the person learns all the basics of wc3 and much more. wc3 is a micro arena, it's much easier to think about strategical options when you have so little to think about, in sc you have major macro problems on your back and it's much harder to think while you play in sc, you're just so busy trying to make everything work, in wc3 everything works on its own, you just gotta press that mouse button and move your army.
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Another thread killed by bw vs wc3 battle :|
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i think it will be relatively easy for blizzard to create a system that makes rematches with an (at first) random opponent
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On June 11 2007 06:03 Dendra wrote:
put it simple - sc amateur community is in europe, major leagues, etc.
wc3 - like comparing driving a ferrari and a massive truck, sure ferrari looks nice and is cool but driving a truck is 10times harder, sc may not look nice, may not have hundreds of sponsors but the deal is - sc has started to attract many sponsors lately just because it is a competive game and the community simply doesn't die, if you think wc3 has so good gameplay and can "somehow" be a match to sc then i wonder how long will it live when sc2 comes out, dota+wow+sc2-end of wc3. people don't want to play hard games where they learn basics for years, they want games like wc3 where even a blind dog can't mess up the build order 1st time he plays and after a week or a month depending on the person learns all the basics of wc3 and much more. wc3 is a micro arena, it's much easier to think about strategical options when you have so little to think about, in sc you have major macro problems on your back and it's much harder to think while you play in sc, you're just so busy trying to make everything work, in wc3 everything works on its own, you just gotta press that mouse button and move your army.
Just like WC3 and WoW also BW will be stomped by SC2 (unless it turns out to be crappy and won't have any major impact on any scene).
I'm off from this topic, waste of time.
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See Dendra, your ONLY argument against AMM is that 'war3 sucks', that's not VALID at all.
See look: you say War3 attracts shitty players because it's boring, no skill required etc., fine. If you think BW has good mannered people all round, then why wouldn't SC2? The GAME creates the community, not the way you find opponents.
If an AMM was created for BW right now, would the community immediately turn to shit? of course it wouldn't... Likewise, if War3 never had an AMM, apparently the game would have been good to you?
You don't make any sense. All you want to do is hate on war3 as much as possible.
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i'm saying amm doesn't create a bond manual search does, you guys don't communicate half we do. we have mutual ladder channels and we look for games via chat, our ladder sites are actually alive and community is passing it every day, who clicks on ladder link in wc3? every 10 years someone checks his nick on site, zzz. i'm saying as it was said before, amm separates community, makes us all look like little islands, sure we can have private channels like in sc for ladder games but what's use of it if amm is gonna match you with someone x on x channel, here we talk to people we play with and we know who we will play. do we want to noob bash? do we want to test our skills? do we want to train one map, one match up, that's the reason why our ladder exists,. you cant' understand it, np.
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Hey, I'm just as much apart of the BW community as you are. I've been playing this game since the day it was released, don't assume that I don't know anything about the BW community.
And maybe you didn't communicate with people in War3, but that's your issue. When I was active, I had several different channels I'd go to, asking people to practice matchups etc., why can't this exist with an AMM? And what are you talking about no one checks war3 ladder links? Do you have any proof of that at all? lol... The point of channels in War3 is to communicate, create and play games with your friends, just like in BW. This is no different.
The true point of the AMM is to get the best measurement of skill for a ladder.
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United States12248 Posts
Ladders are intended for people to compete, not play frivolously.
I can tell you many occasions on SC where I've been booted/banned from a game because of my lower ladder rating or because I didn't select a race the creator wanted. There are just as many stories of people leaving games I've created because the map wasn't what they wanted. AMM forces gameplay based on random factors such as opponent race, rating (to a degree), and map, which causes all participants to be familiar with all aspects of the game.
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Lets look at this realistically, shall we... SC2 will have an AMM 100% and most likely you won't be able to create ladder games manually, because of the ton of possible abuses with this, it would need heavy restrictions and most likely an admin team to make decisions(and Blizz won't pay for such a team, when they have a much less problematic AMM) or players will just abuse it and decapitate the ladder like they did with SC:BW.
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On June 11 2007 14:42 lololol wrote:
Lets look realisticly, shall we, it will have an AMM 100% and most likely you won't be able to create ladder games manually, because of the ton of possible abuses with this, it would need heavy restrictions and most likely an admin team to make decisions(and Blizz won't pay for such a team, when they have a much less problematic AMM) or players will just abuse it and decapitate the ladder like they did with SC:BW.
Indeed. there's no way there won't be some sort of AMM. To me, the AMM was the best feature about War3 :/
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Dendra, is it just me or are you saying if people weren't forced to chat to get a game, no one would bother talking to you?
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On June 11 2007 14:55 Doctorasul wrote:
Dendra, is it just me or are you saying if people weren't forced to chat to get a game, no one would bother talking to you?
I think you hit the nail right on the head.
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sure amm has good points like you said, nobody quits your game- that's why even 1sec games count which sux but nvm, you can't cancel that game while in sc if you disc or whatever before game started to develope admin looks at it and makes it a draw.
abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him. We do everything and that's something i like about sc as a game and sc as a community. we don't need blizzard to fix out maps, add a new item/shop on a map so we stop crying how imba it is, only thing blizzard does is releasing a new patch every year that fixes god knows what and thats it. 1.15 is the biggest thing they've done in years and it's the worst patch ever at the same time, there are a couple of things they messed up with the patch related to the game itself but i won't go into details. point is we live on our own for years, how many patches did blizzard release for wc3 and how old is the game?
in sc we have channels where the whole world meets, ladder channels, private servers where ppl don't go because they dont have original sc (like in wc3 where ppl tell me like - you dont have to play on that private server ladder, you have original key ffs), ppl go there to play a competitive ladder, to train, hell if ladder is good the prestige of higher ranks is huge, you can abuse no matter how much and still if you're like on top of ladder that means something and such cases are rare, mostly they get banned before they reach half way to top and the whole top ranking is taken over by koreans, a plague which you in wc3 luckily don't have to deal with  (and no, moon+company can't compare with the skill difference of koreans in bw)
amm is good if you're lazy, but ladder doesn't have to be only about realistic rank, if it was like that then we'd have the ranking system chess uses and i sure don't see a balanced ranking system in wc3 - i find our old PGT system much more stable and yet even it had flaws, so to say. it's hard making a good ladder, combination of amm+manual search would be best, amm is a great thing, easier match finding, etc.
in sc2 it will obviusly be amm only since sc community is unique, just look at our topics, whenever there is a poll online sc community rises and floods the poll just to make sc no1, kinda reminds me of rich and poor kids, wc3 has blizzard watching over it and still has major things to get fixed to balance the game more, sc has only itself, just browse net a bit and see how easy it is to find bw utilities on hundreds of sites, wc3 is nowhere near it, even the wc3chart sux compared to bwchart and besides that, our community has produced even more programs, for like eapm, etc. if we had amm system i doubt sites like ggnet, wgtour, tlnet, etc. would exist,
trying to switch the direction into a psycho discussion "people can chat even with amm, manual search doesnt force them to chat", but the community speaks for itself, blizzard could've stopped patching at 1.13f and it would be fine, try to remove wc3 patches and it won't be the same, if blizzard stopped paying attention to wc3 slowly the community would flow towards other games, in sc x times i saw questions each year "has blizzard forgotten us?" and yet i saw this year more ppl come on net than the people that left bw last year, game is still here, communities are growing, now sc2 has been announced so it's like a noob paradise and we're getting a flood of wannabes who wish to learn sc so they get "easier start" in sc2, they will leave, some might fall in love with sc and stay, the core of sc will remain, sc is only one, it has survived wc3 and all the cool games, sure sponsors prefer taking games like Die Hard or whatever gets the money flowing, but wcg still has sc, korea still has it, it's spreading over asia, in latin america it's growing rapidly-thx to an effort of people who happen to like sc, that's our community, prolly strongest gaming community ever and it's for sure thx to wgtour/pgtour, both non-amm ladders.
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On June 11 2007 16:54 Dendra wrote:sure amm has good points like you said, nobody quits your game- that's why even 1sec games count which sux but nvm, you can't cancel that game while in sc if you disc or whatever before game started to develope admin looks at it and makes it a draw. abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him. We do everything and that's something i like about sc as a game and sc as a community. we don't need blizzard to fix out maps, add a new item/shop on a map so we stop crying how imba it is, only thing blizzard does is releasing a new patch every year that fixes god knows what and thats it. 1.15 is the biggest thing they've done in years and it's the worst patch ever at the same time, there are a couple of things they messed up with the patch related to the game itself but i won't go into details. point is we live on our own for years, how many patches did blizzard release for wc3 and how old is the game? in sc we have channels where the whole world meets, ladder channels, private servers where ppl don't go because they dont have original sc (like in wc3 where ppl tell me like - you dont have to play on that private server ladder, you have original key ffs), ppl go there to play a competitive ladder, to train, hell if ladder is good the prestige of higher ranks is huge, you can abuse no matter how much and still if you're like on top of ladder that means something and such cases are rare, mostly they get banned before they reach half way to top and the whole top ranking is taken over by koreans, a plague which you in wc3 luckily don't have to deal with (and no, moon+company can't compare with the skill difference of koreans in bw) amm is good if you're lazy, but ladder doesn't have to be only about realistic rank, if it was like that then we'd have the ranking system chess uses and i sure don't see a balanced ranking system in wc3 - i find our old PGT system much more stable and yet even it had flaws, so to say. it's hard making a good ladder, combination of amm+manual search would be best, amm is a great thing, easier match finding, etc. in sc2 it will obviusly be amm only since sc community is unique, just look at our topics, whenever there is a poll online sc community rises and floods the poll just to make sc no1, kinda reminds me of rich and poor kids, wc3 has blizzard watching over it and still has major things to get fixed to balance the game more, sc has only itself, just browse net a bit and see how easy it is to find bw utilities on hundreds of sites, wc3 is nowhere near it, even the wc3chart sux compared to bwchart and besides that, our community has produced even more programs, for like eapm, etc. if we had amm system i doubt sites like ggnet, wgtour, tlnet, etc. would exist, trying to switch the direction into a psycho discussion "people can chat even with amm, manual search doesnt force them to chat", but the community speaks for itself, blizzard could've stopped patching at 1.13f and it would be fine, try to remove wc3 patches and it won't be the same, if blizzard stopped paying attention to wc3 slowly the community would flow towards other games, in sc x times i saw questions each year "has blizzard forgotten us?" and yet i saw this year more ppl come on net than the people that left bw last year, game is still here, communities are growing, now sc2 has been announced so it's like a noob paradise and we're getting a flood of wannabes who wish to learn sc so they get "easier start" in sc2, they will leave, some might fall in love with sc and stay, the core of sc will remain, sc is only one, it has survived wc3 and all the cool games, sure sponsors prefer taking games like Die Hard or whatever gets the money flowing, but wcg still has sc, korea still has it, it's spreading over asia, in latin america it's growing rapidly-thx to an effort of people who happen to like sc, that's our community, prolly strongest gaming community ever and it's for sure thx to wgtour/pgtour, both non-amm ladders.
So many words - so little merit.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
just give up, manitou. dendra has proven way too often that he doesn't know anything and just talks nonsense all day long. it's really not worth it
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On June 11 2007 17:12 Carnac wrote:
just give up, manitou. dendra has proven way too often that he doesn't know anything and just talks nonsense all day long. it's really not worth it
I hear you man. 
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On June 11 2007 16:54 Dendra wrote:sure amm has good points like you said, nobody quits your game- that's why even 1sec games count which sux but nvm, you can't cancel that game while in sc if you disc or whatever before game started to develope admin looks at it and makes it a draw. abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him. We do everything and that's something i like about sc as a game and sc as a community. we don't need blizzard to fix out maps, add a new item/shop on a map so we stop crying how imba it is, only thing blizzard does is releasing a new patch every year that fixes god knows what and thats it. 1.15 is the biggest thing they've done in years and it's the worst patch ever at the same time, there are a couple of things they messed up with the patch related to the game itself but i won't go into details. point is we live on our own for years, how many patches did blizzard release for wc3 and how old is the game? in sc we have channels where the whole world meets, ladder channels, private servers where ppl don't go because they dont have original sc (like in wc3 where ppl tell me like - you dont have to play on that private server ladder, you have original key ffs), ppl go there to play a competitive ladder, to train, hell if ladder is good the prestige of higher ranks is huge, you can abuse no matter how much and still if you're like on top of ladder that means something and such cases are rare, mostly they get banned before they reach half way to top and the whole top ranking is taken over by koreans, a plague which you in wc3 luckily don't have to deal with (and no, moon+company can't compare with the skill difference of koreans in bw) amm is good if you're lazy, but ladder doesn't have to be only about realistic rank, if it was like that then we'd have the ranking system chess uses and i sure don't see a balanced ranking system in wc3 - i find our old PGT system much more stable and yet even it had flaws, so to say. it's hard making a good ladder, combination of amm+manual search would be best, amm is a great thing, easier match finding, etc. in sc2 it will obviusly be amm only since sc community is unique, just look at our topics, whenever there is a poll online sc community rises and floods the poll just to make sc no1, kinda reminds me of rich and poor kids, wc3 has blizzard watching over it and still has major things to get fixed to balance the game more, sc has only itself, just browse net a bit and see how easy it is to find bw utilities on hundreds of sites, wc3 is nowhere near it, even the wc3chart sux compared to bwchart and besides that, our community has produced even more programs, for like eapm, etc. if we had amm system i doubt sites like ggnet, wgtour, tlnet, etc. would exist, trying to switch the direction into a psycho discussion "people can chat even with amm, manual search doesnt force them to chat", but the community speaks for itself, blizzard could've stopped patching at 1.13f and it would be fine, try to remove wc3 patches and it won't be the same, if blizzard stopped paying attention to wc3 slowly the community would flow towards other games, in sc x times i saw questions each year "has blizzard forgotten us?" and yet i saw this year more ppl come on net than the people that left bw last year, game is still here, communities are growing, now sc2 has been announced so it's like a noob paradise and we're getting a flood of wannabes who wish to learn sc so they get "easier start" in sc2, they will leave, some might fall in love with sc and stay, the core of sc will remain, sc is only one, it has survived wc3 and all the cool games, sure sponsors prefer taking games like Die Hard or whatever gets the money flowing, but wcg still has sc, korea still has it, it's spreading over asia, in latin america it's growing rapidly-thx to an effort of people who happen to like sc, that's our community, prolly strongest gaming community ever and it's for sure thx to wgtour/pgtour, both non-amm ladders.
Could you stop your verbal diarrhea?
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abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him.
It worked with PGT because it was a pretty small population. If SC2 is huge, that won't work at all.
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On June 11 2007 18:34 exo6yte wrote:Show nested quote +abusing ladder was solved on PGT, anyone mass gaming same guy for free wins for example got banned - why? because Community reports him. It worked with PGT because it was a pretty small population. If SC2 is huge, that won't work at all.
so be it - mess up sc2 all you want, leave sc alone. anything "smart" implemented put as optional.
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EPT
