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On August 19 2017 20:54 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
Case in point, I could be wrong, but you open ghost, adepts do jack shit vs a cloaked unit, no?
You need to consider things like,this. The game will look much different...
You also have to consider which amount of units you can build in contrast to your opponent. Ghosts don't kill stuff as fast as DTs, Ghosts have to trade cloaking time for snipe (to get rid of some units in quick fashion), gas isn't really the limiting factor for building Ghosts in normal games, actually, it's minerals, because you already are investing in an otherwise mineral-heavy army.
You might be right that the game will change drastically, but all we can do is more or less theorycraft, because the sample size of played games on the test map is still rather small. So, in the end, we have to stick to what we know and that's the current meta.
I also like the idea of EMPing Oracles, but teching into Ghosts early is a heavy investment, as you won't have much else to defend with. You'll have to wait for your opponent to trigger the pulsar beam, otherwise you have a hard time hitting a flying unit as fast as the Oracle consistently, you even risk EMPing your own OC, potentially losing the ability to scan or MULE.
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come on ghosts have NOTHING to do with DTs. Energy running out, not able to be warped, can't oneshot workers, can't fight when detected, can't morph into archons to transition out, doesn't unlock twilight for transition upgrades
ghosts may be used for cheeses with this patch but they'll be very easy to figure out
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On August 20 2017 01:48 BronzeKnee wrote:
The Widow Mine change will help massively versus mine drops against Protoss. Especially when you don't have detection, or the Observer gets picked off by Marines in the dropship. Widow Mines can shut down mineral lines and end the game early in PvT. With this change, if you don't have detection you can sacrifice a Probe against one them kill them off. They won't sit endlessly in mineral lines.
There is a reason I face them nearly every game in PvT. They really aren't a huge investment (especially compared to Oracle harass) and while they aren't always cost effective, they are a lottery ticket. Every 1 in 8 or so games they might deal so much damage they win the game alone.
And without Photon Overcharge, Protoss would have no answer to them, so they Widow Mines have to change. And this change actually makes them a decently designed unit, as before the Widow Mine was one of the worst designs.
This, sorry to be that guy but any Terran's complaining about this change are just mad because they can't set and forget Widow Mines all around the map and win the game, forcing a massive APM and micro sink for their opponent while they expand with vision/surprise splash damage/impunity. This is a fantastic change, this game needs less, "omgf that rogue mine killed half the army by accident" and more of, "wow that Terran player is really on top of his mines, always saving them after they are shot, isn't Maru amazing?"
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The economy change is already a really good step in the right direction, but i wish they would revert back to hots economy. It was perfect imo.
I hope mech gets an anti air buff vs skytoss. Skytoss is very imbalanced in Mech vs protoss and one of the biggest reasons why mech doesn't work.
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On August 19 2017 17:04 hiroshOne wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 13:43 Luongo wrote:
New Disruptor is terrible and needs to not deal friendly fire damage and have an even lower cooldown if it's going to stay the way it is exploding the second it touches enemy units.
The shield recharge ability isn't anywhere close to being a proper substitute for photon overcharge. You are going from a MSC pylon dps abillity to an ability that requires a complete nexus with built up energy and units present. Photon overcharge gave the early game of protoss much needed DPS to handle early rushes. Protoss units are generally low dps. so making them tankier isn't nearly as useful. I don't see how they are going to make this work. My prediction is they will be forced to bring back the MSC. OMG...Are you seriously crying that you need UNITS to defend your base? ROFTL
This argument is exactly why Photon Overcharge shouldve died a long time ago. It's such a fucking crutch it's pathetic.
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On August 20 2017 04:45 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2017 17:04 hiroshOne wrote:On August 19 2017 13:43 Luongo wrote:
New Disruptor is terrible and needs to not deal friendly fire damage and have an even lower cooldown if it's going to stay the way it is exploding the second it touches enemy units.
The shield recharge ability isn't anywhere close to being a proper substitute for photon overcharge. You are going from a MSC pylon dps abillity to an ability that requires a complete nexus with built up energy and units present. Photon overcharge gave the early game of protoss much needed DPS to handle early rushes. Protoss units are generally low dps. so making them tankier isn't nearly as useful. I don't see how they are going to make this work. My prediction is they will be forced to bring back the MSC. OMG...Are you seriously crying that you need UNITS to defend your base? ROFTL This argument is exactly why Photon Overcharge shouldve died a long time ago. It's such a fucking crutch it's pathetic.
+1, I can personally attest with probably 10 ZvP's played at a low/mid diamond level with these changes that Photon Overcharge was indeed a huge crutch and currently Protoss feels pretty pathetic against Zerg without it.
I know it's beating a dead horse, but Gateway units could easily be buffed if Warp Gate did not exist, or only existed in the Warp Prism.
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Remove Adept, Liberator, Ultralisk armor upgrade = Kreygasm, SC2 saved.
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On August 20 2017 05:32 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 04:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2017 17:04 hiroshOne wrote:On August 19 2017 13:43 Luongo wrote:
New Disruptor is terrible and needs to not deal friendly fire damage and have an even lower cooldown if it's going to stay the way it is exploding the second it touches enemy units.
The shield recharge ability isn't anywhere close to being a proper substitute for photon overcharge. You are going from a MSC pylon dps abillity to an ability that requires a complete nexus with built up energy and units present. Photon overcharge gave the early game of protoss much needed DPS to handle early rushes. Protoss units are generally low dps. so making them tankier isn't nearly as useful. I don't see how they are going to make this work. My prediction is they will be forced to bring back the MSC. OMG...Are you seriously crying that you need UNITS to defend your base? ROFTL This argument is exactly why Photon Overcharge shouldve died a long time ago. It's such a fucking crutch it's pathetic. +1, I can personally attest with probably 10 ZvP's played at a low/mid diamond level with these changes that Photon Overcharge was indeed a huge crutch and currently Protoss feels pretty pathetic against Zerg without it. I know it's beating a dead horse, but Gateway units could easily be buffed if Warp Gate did not exist, or only existed in the Warp Prism.
Yup. I actually don't mind photon overcharge, simply because gateway units are so trash. And stalkers shooting half as fast is only going to make it worse. Most protoss units already shoot really slowly and carry a punch. I personally feel they could use something that attacks a little faster (for a weaker hit). Kind of like the sentry, but not so pathetic.
Warpgate pretty much precludes you from having strong gateway units. And, I do believe, that that's largely a holdover from WoL/HoTS, back when there was no difference between warp in times. Back when it was 5 seconds, no matter what, it would have been ridiculous. I believe we're at a point where we might be able to consider actually buffing them a little bit.
I do think I would prefer gateway to be more of a lategame upgrade, like cracklings, or something. Something to give a gateway army some additional punch.
Basically tie it in with the warp prism, where it acts as a regular dropship at first, but then once you upgrade (whatever) it can actually warp in things.
On August 20 2017 05:33 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:
Remove Adept, Liberator, Ultralisk armor upgrade = Kreygasm, SC2 saved.
Lol. so your solution is, "let's play hots"?
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The OBS suveillance mode is "fine" , but why add 25% vision. it should be the opposite. Reduce 25% vision for people who cant play without f2.
So less skill, dump and forget obs gets promoted....
The list of changes are so silly, also making everything faster (EVERY FCKING THING) on crack isnt more fun to play, it makes it more frustrating.
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considering the weird builds and styles i use, the changes are amazing.
love my stalkergoons lol. 15 damage without upgrades!
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On August 20 2017 05:49 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 05:32 jpg06051992 wrote:On August 20 2017 04:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2017 17:04 hiroshOne wrote:On August 19 2017 13:43 Luongo wrote:
New Disruptor is terrible and needs to not deal friendly fire damage and have an even lower cooldown if it's going to stay the way it is exploding the second it touches enemy units.
The shield recharge ability isn't anywhere close to being a proper substitute for photon overcharge. You are going from a MSC pylon dps abillity to an ability that requires a complete nexus with built up energy and units present. Photon overcharge gave the early game of protoss much needed DPS to handle early rushes. Protoss units are generally low dps. so making them tankier isn't nearly as useful. I don't see how they are going to make this work. My prediction is they will be forced to bring back the MSC. OMG...Are you seriously crying that you need UNITS to defend your base? ROFTL This argument is exactly why Photon Overcharge shouldve died a long time ago. It's such a fucking crutch it's pathetic. +1, I can personally attest with probably 10 ZvP's played at a low/mid diamond level with these changes that Photon Overcharge was indeed a huge crutch and currently Protoss feels pretty pathetic against Zerg without it. I know it's beating a dead horse, but Gateway units could easily be buffed if Warp Gate did not exist, or only existed in the Warp Prism. Yup. I actually don't mind photon overcharge, simply because gateway units are so trash. And stalkers shooting half as fast is only going to make it worse. Most protoss units already shoot really slowly and carry a punch. I personally feel they could use something that attacks a little faster (for a weaker hit). Kind of like the sentry, but not so pathetic. Warpgate pretty much precludes you from having strong gateway units. And, I do believe, that that's largely a holdover from WoL/HoTS, back when there was no difference between warp in times. Back when it was 5 seconds, no matter what, it would have been ridiculous. I believe we're at a point where we might be able to consider actually buffing them a little bit. I do think I would prefer gateway to be more of a lategame upgrade, like cracklings, or something. Something to give a gateway army some additional punch. Basically tie it in with the warp prism, where it acts as a regular dropship at first, but then once you upgrade (whatever) it can actually warp in things. Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 05:33 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:
Remove Adept, Liberator, Ultralisk armor upgrade = Kreygasm, SC2 saved. Lol. so your solution is, "let's play hots"?
I would also prefer Warp Gate to be a late game upgrade and then be able to lay some mild buffs onto GW units, but in essence it's still just a band aid. As long as they can instantly appear anywhere, they must be weaker, there is just no way around it. The balance team should have had some balls and removed it just to see exactly how bad Protoss would be without it, and then buff accordingly.
Do Stalkers even do anymore damage by the way? I know the damage was buffed but now they shoot slower? What the hell lol the Stalker sucks vs. Zerg in almost any situation (roaches trade decently while lings and Hydras annihilate them) and bio eats them just as quick as ever, they should have laid a straight up damage buff on them, not a damage change.
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On August 20 2017 00:53 MyiPtitDrogo wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Thought I'd post a little something after playing it a little yesterday and thinking about it more.
And I'll just say it outright, there is no way protoss can survive in its current state without the MSC.
Or to be more exact, there is no way protoss can survive without an oracle, you thought you were tired of protoss going SG everygame ? In this patch I honestly don't see any reason why any protoss would go for anything else, the oracle being a kind of poor man msc of sort in all match-ups.
To be clear, I think managing to balance protoss without an Msc would be an amazing feat and good for the game, but right now I have a really hard time seeing how it would be possible.
Let's go for a boring Mu per mu quick study (this is gonna be mostly theorycrafting and probably gonna forget about a bunch of stuff)
PvP: Walling the ramp against adepts is now a must, and both player now go Stargate everygame, I don't even think a one base blink is supposed to do anything without an msc, the early combination of adepts going in the mineral with the 2 first oracles is just too hard to defend with a mothership core. Msc at it's core was here to prevent one base in PvP from doing too much, and we're going to back 5-6 years in time metagame wise, but worse, because the adept is just insanely powerful with a mothership core to defend it;
PvT: Something as silly as proxy 4 rax marine is now extremely hard to hold (I'm not gonna say impossible because I didn't test it, and maybe the new chronoboost can allow enough stalkers out in time, but god damn is it gonna be super hard)
Also proxy cyclone, also 1 base terran in general. Also mine drop and libs are now much much more powerful.
And I don't rly need to say it, but you're gonna see even more sg than you currently see.
PvZ: With the addition of the early dropoverlord mechanic, it is actually mathematically impossible to hold a zerg early all-ins without a stargate, I know this is getting redundant, just pointing it out. Now the nice thing is that I can actually see the shield mechanic being really useful vs Zerg all-ins compared to terrans (fights usually take a bit longer vs lings and roachs so the shield thing can have a lot of value), but still not as useful as photon overcharge ofc.
So yea, you can see a general theme here, protoss still lacks early defense and I don't believe the shield stuff does anything outside of being hilarious vs the early reaper.
I do believe than the MSC biggest problem was how well it was scaling in the midgame, overcharge still being a massive defensive tool even when armies gets over an hundred supply. In that sense nexus overcharge was a bit better, since it didn't usually stops an army by itself (but then again it was taking so much aggro I guess it was kinda nice in a lot of situations, it was just not doing a lot of damage). I really feel like blizzard will have put the msc back into the game, but somehow make it much less powerful.
In closing, I'm kinda sad how much pylon overcharge gets, I feel like it was such a better design than nexus overcharge, pylon placement became a really huge deal and you were rewarded for intelligent pylon management. I would love to be proven wrong, but atm I really don't think removing the msc (or anything "1 clic defense-ish") is possible, but since most of the communities is ecstatic about it getting removed, Blizzard is never gonna backpedal on this, I just hope they discover some amazing ideas to balance it out.
Thanks for the impressions, I mean, it was kinda a given that Protoss would be defenceless in the early game without the MSC and just a Stalker buff to compensate it, so not too surprising unfortunately. As said above, Gateway units should get a major re-design/buff, but that implies a major redesign of warpgate (and maybe forcefield too?) as it as been advocated for years.
I'm surprised they didn't saw it coming. I mean last year they made a big fuss about all the pros and caster they invited for the last major redesign, did they do it alone this year?
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With the additional of adept and new stalker i dont think gateway units need anything.They reverted HOTS macro mechanic back and only exclusive for protoss so everything is faster for that race.It just takes time to figure out.
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If Protoss is too weak early game without hte MSC then please buff the Zealot and Stalker. Buff basic//simple Protoss units with stat increases.
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I never played WoL. How managed Protoss in WoL to survive the early game, without any overcharge or MSC?
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On August 20 2017 08:28 MrWayne wrote:
I never played WoL. How managed Protoss in WoL to survive the early game, without any overcharge or MSC?
They built units. And didn't rely on a MSC button to hold stuff off.
Bio isn't scary until Stim, Medivacs, Combat Shields and Marauders come into play.
Proper scouting and responses is what allowed them to hold off Terran aggression, as it should be.
If they spotted aggression, they'd start building more units. Sentries were also quite important.
I've had my attacks held off countless times in WoL because Protoss scouted it and reacted properly.
And it put me behind because of the investment I made into the attack.
Yes, there were cases where my Bio arrived to find a greedy Protoss who didn't scout me and got steamrolled as a result.
That is how it's supposed to be.
Any Protoss complaining they have to build units now to stay alive are proving why Photon Overcharge has to go.
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On August 20 2017 08:35 Thezzy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 08:28 MrWayne wrote:
I never played WoL. How managed Protoss in WoL to survive the early game, without any overcharge or MSC? They built units. And didn't rely on a MSC button to hold stuff off. Bio isn't scary until Stim, Medivacs, Combat Shields and Marauders come into play. Proper scouting and responses is what allowed them to hold off Terran aggression, as it should be. If they spotted aggression, they'd start building more units. Sentries were also quite important. I've had my attacks held off countless times in WoL because Protoss scouted it and reacted properly. And it put me behind because of the investment I made into the attack. Yes, there were cases where my Bio arrived to find a greedy Protoss who didn't scout me and got steamrolled as a result. That is how it's supposed to be. Any Protoss complaining they have to build units now to stay alive are proving why Photon Overcharge has to go.
The options that were available to old school WOL Terran and Zerg were far weaker then they are today. The Ravager single handedly made the Forge Fast Expand obsolete and it used to be a standard.
Protoss currently feels very weak, granted I'm sure a player of superior skill would mop me as they currently do but against players of my own level I find them weaker then they currently are, I see no way to fix this other then perhaps some type of nerf to Warp Gate to make it an end game or mid game upgrade and give Gateway units simple but meaningful buffs.
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On August 20 2017 07:11 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 05:49 reneg wrote:On August 20 2017 05:32 jpg06051992 wrote:On August 20 2017 04:45 Vindicare605 wrote:On August 19 2017 17:04 hiroshOne wrote:On August 19 2017 13:43 Luongo wrote:
New Disruptor is terrible and needs to not deal friendly fire damage and have an even lower cooldown if it's going to stay the way it is exploding the second it touches enemy units.
The shield recharge ability isn't anywhere close to being a proper substitute for photon overcharge. You are going from a MSC pylon dps abillity to an ability that requires a complete nexus with built up energy and units present. Photon overcharge gave the early game of protoss much needed DPS to handle early rushes. Protoss units are generally low dps. so making them tankier isn't nearly as useful. I don't see how they are going to make this work. My prediction is they will be forced to bring back the MSC. OMG...Are you seriously crying that you need UNITS to defend your base? ROFTL This argument is exactly why Photon Overcharge shouldve died a long time ago. It's such a fucking crutch it's pathetic. +1, I can personally attest with probably 10 ZvP's played at a low/mid diamond level with these changes that Photon Overcharge was indeed a huge crutch and currently Protoss feels pretty pathetic against Zerg without it. I know it's beating a dead horse, but Gateway units could easily be buffed if Warp Gate did not exist, or only existed in the Warp Prism. Yup. I actually don't mind photon overcharge, simply because gateway units are so trash. And stalkers shooting half as fast is only going to make it worse. Most protoss units already shoot really slowly and carry a punch. I personally feel they could use something that attacks a little faster (for a weaker hit). Kind of like the sentry, but not so pathetic. Warpgate pretty much precludes you from having strong gateway units. And, I do believe, that that's largely a holdover from WoL/HoTS, back when there was no difference between warp in times. Back when it was 5 seconds, no matter what, it would have been ridiculous. I believe we're at a point where we might be able to consider actually buffing them a little bit. I do think I would prefer gateway to be more of a lategame upgrade, like cracklings, or something. Something to give a gateway army some additional punch. Basically tie it in with the warp prism, where it acts as a regular dropship at first, but then once you upgrade (whatever) it can actually warp in things. On August 20 2017 05:33 Siegetank_Dieter1 wrote:
Remove Adept, Liberator, Ultralisk armor upgrade = Kreygasm, SC2 saved. Lol. so your solution is, "let's play hots"? I would also prefer Warp Gate to be a late game upgrade and then be able to lay some mild buffs onto GW units, but in essence it's still just a band aid. As long as they can instantly appear anywhere, they must be weaker, there is just no way around it. The balance team should have had some balls and removed it just to see exactly how bad Protoss would be without it, and then buff accordingly. Do Stalkers even do anymore damage by the way? I know the damage was buffed but now they shoot slower? What the hell lol the Stalker sucks vs. Zerg in almost any situation (roaches trade decently while lings and Hydras annihilate them) and bio eats them just as quick as ever, they should have laid a straight up damage buff on them, not a damage change.
Yea, the stalkers will do 50% more damage, but shoot 50% slower. It basically sets it up so plus armor upgrades are less effective against it, but I feel like if it's spring less often, it'll just get eaten by units that swarm (lings, etc).
And I hear what your saying about GW units needing to be worse, because of warp gate, but I feel like you could just make the argument that they could be a little stronger if it's a late game upgrade.
T and Z would just have to invest more in defense, to hold until your units get there.
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I don't know the math here, but wouldn't the Stalker changes actually increase their DPS? At least after attack upgrades.
Because if they're buffing the attack damage but proportionally slowing the attack speed to maintain the same DPS, Stalkers should be stronger after upgrades because they're gaining +2 now for each level of upgrade instead just +1.
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This sounds like the best changes in a while.
Sadly I think these changes are coming way too late and the economy still should be changed back to a 16 optimum 24 max saturation style.
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EPT
