EPTCause that'd be fucking hillarious to watch.
StarCraft II Multiplayer - Major Design Changes - Page 17
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
Cause that'd be fucking hillarious to watch. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On August 19 2017 19:22 ihatevideogames wrote: Can Hellbats be healed by a Medivac and a Mechivac at the same time? Cause that'd be fucking hillarious to watch. And repaired by a MULE. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On August 19 2017 18:59 Vanadiel wrote: I'm afraid the mule harvesting gas will make terran's build completely unreadable, the amount of variation in the timings it would allow might be too much for early games. Terran builds aren't dictated by ressources but by production buildings. I think openings and timings will be fine to read, but that army compositions might be very unsettling to play against. For instance, cyclone/raven compositions would be a viable mech composition, using the MECHivac raven + the shredder missile. Which would make no sense without the gaz mule. My main concern with it is how fast skyterran may be rushed out of fewer bases, and in turn, how weak it would need to be not to get overpowered. | ||
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ihatevideogames
570 Posts
On August 19 2017 19:51 JackONeill wrote: Terran builds aren't dictated by ressources but by production buildings. I think openings and timings will be fine to read, but that army compositions might be very unsettling to play against. For instance, cyclone/raven compositions would be a viable mech composition, using the MECHivac raven + the shredder missile. Which would make no sense without the gaz mule. My main concern with it is how fast skyterran may be rushed out of fewer bases, and in turn, how weak it would need to be not to get overpowered. Skyterran vs what? BCs are now obsolette vs toss with the new Stalkers and Zerg never had any trouble with it ever since Liberator anti-air got deleted after a whopping 2 GSL matches of 'sample size'. | ||
Poopi
France13005 Posts
What are the new stalkers? | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
You are thinking in terms of the current meta, which is really off. Watch the Ryung game. He went proxy cloaked ghost and had to RESEARCH CLOAK. My point being that it still worked, even with the research time of cloak. Jesus man, the auto cloak means ghost are viable SOONER, meaning they can BANK energy. You should be able to open ghost and FORCE a robo, like toss opens dts and forces scans n whatnot. Think of how this changes 1-1-1 builds. This is one of the reasons I hate knee jerk reactions. When I first saw reapers and medivacs paired together, I didn't think we would EVER see something like that. It was a fresh take on bio we hadn't seen. I see this as something similar, it should open up new bio builds. Don't be worrying about the current meta. I remember YEARS ago watching, I think it was Destiny stream, a Terran opened hellion Ghost, into marine marauder, it was sick as fuck.... Don't think it will be exactly Countered by star gates, as you can and should spread your ghost to minimize revelation' (another take away from that game is that Ryung got two or three of his ghost caught with 1 revelation....) plus, you should be able to mass ghost easier than oracles, they come out of barracks. | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
You need to consider things like,this. The game will look much different... | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On August 19 2017 20:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: @craeger You are thinking in terms of the current meta, which is really off. Watch the Ryung game. He went proxy cloaked ghost and had to RESEARCH CLOAK. My point being that it still worked, even with the research time of cloak. Jesus man, the auto cloak means ghost are viable SOONER, meaning they can BANK energy. You should be able to open ghost and FORCE a robo, like toss opens dts and forces scans n whatnot. Think of how this changes 1-1-1 builds. This is one of the reasons I hate knee jerk reactions. When I first saw reapers and medivacs paired together, I didn't think we would EVER see something like that. It was a fresh take on bio we hadn't seen. I see this as something similar, it should open up new bio builds. Don't be worrying about the current meta. I remember YEARS ago watching, I think it was Destiny stream, a Terran opened hellion Ghost, into marine marauder, it was sick as fuck.... Don't think it will be exactly Countered by star gates, as you can and should spread your ghost to minimize revelation' (another take away from that game is that Ryung got two or three of his ghost caught with 1 revelation....) plus, you should be able to mass ghost easier than oracles, they come out of barracks. Gas shouldn't be a problem either as mules can now collect gas better than scv... | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
On August 19 2017 20:49 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: @craeger You are thinking in terms of the current meta, which is really off. Watch the Ryung game. He went proxy cloaked ghost and had to RESEARCH CLOAK. My point being that it still worked, even with the research time of cloak. Jesus man, the auto cloak means ghost are viable SOONER, meaning they can BANK energy. You should be able to open ghost and FORCE a robo, like toss opens dts and forces scans n whatnot. Think of how this changes 1-1-1 builds. This is one of the reasons I hate knee jerk reactions. When I first saw reapers and medivacs paired together, I didn't think we would EVER see something like that. It was a fresh take on bio we hadn't seen. I see this as something similar, it should open up new bio builds. Don't be worrying about the current meta. I remember YEARS ago watching, I think it was Destiny stream, a Terran opened hellion Ghost, into marine marauder, it was sick as fuck.... Don't think it will be exactly Countered by star gates, as you can and should spread your ghost to minimize revelation' (another take away from that game is that Ryung got two or three of his ghost caught with 1 revelation....) plus, you should be able to mass ghost easier than oracles, they come out of barracks. You could EMP the Oracle. Now it can't do anything. Does cost cloak energy though, not sure. It would be a flexible opening now that I think of it. If Protoss opened with Proxy Oracle vs Ghosts, you could EMP defensively and deny it from melting any workers. I did always wonder how effective it would be to incorporate early Ghosts into Bio in general. Could early EMPs be strong? Would cloak have value here? Or would the cost investment of Ghosts be too high? Will be curious to find out. Keep in mind though that a Ghost opening is not going to be too hard to scout (gas and lack of other units) and one cannon on the ramp will completely deny it and put Protoss ahead. You could still keep the Ghosts and bank energy for EMPs later so it won't be a total loss. A straight up Gateway push with an Observer or Oracle might also spell trouble as Ghosts are a terrible DPS for cost unit. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17693 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
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raff100
498 Posts
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Vanadiel
France961 Posts
On August 19 2017 19:51 JackONeill wrote: Terran builds aren't dictated by ressources but by production buildings. I think openings and timings will be fine to read, but that army compositions might be very unsettling to play against. For instance, cyclone/raven compositions would be a viable mech composition, using the MECHivac raven + the shredder missile. Which would make no sense without the gaz mule. My main concern with it is how fast skyterran may be rushed out of fewer bases, and in turn, how weak it would need to be not to get overpowered. I Don't know, it's true that building are the main parameter for builds and timings, but harvesting gas from a mule could potentially lead to some crazy tech oriented timings. | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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MyiPtitDrogo
28 Posts
And I'll just say it outright, there is no way protoss can survive in its current state without the MSC. Or to be more exact, there is no way protoss can survive without an oracle, you thought you were tired of protoss going SG everygame ? In this patch I honestly don't see any reason why any protoss would go for anything else, the oracle being a kind of poor man msc of sort in all match-ups. To be clear, I think managing to balance protoss without an Msc would be an amazing feat and good for the game, but right now I have a really hard time seeing how it would be possible. Let's go for a boring Mu per mu quick study (this is gonna be mostly theorycrafting and probably gonna forget about a bunch of stuff) PvP: Walling the ramp against adepts is now a must, and both player now go Stargate everygame, I don't even think a one base blink is supposed to do anything without an msc, the early combination of adepts going in the mineral with the 2 first oracles is just too hard to defend with a mothership core. Msc at it's core was here to prevent one base in PvP from doing too much, and we're going to back 5-6 years in time metagame wise, but worse, because the adept is just insanely powerful with a mothership core to defend it; PvT: Something as silly as proxy 4 rax marine is now extremely hard to hold (I'm not gonna say impossible because I didn't test it, and maybe the new chronoboost can allow enough stalkers out in time, but god damn is it gonna be super hard) Also proxy cyclone, also 1 base terran in general. Also mine drop and libs are now much much more powerful. And I don't rly need to say it, but you're gonna see even more sg than you currently see. PvZ: With the addition of the early dropoverlord mechanic, it is actually mathematically impossible to hold a zerg early all-ins without a stargate, I know this is getting redundant, just pointing it out. Now the nice thing is that I can actually see the shield mechanic being really useful vs Zerg all-ins compared to terrans (fights usually take a bit longer vs lings and roachs so the shield thing can have a lot of value), but still not as useful as photon overcharge ofc. So yea, you can see a general theme here, protoss still lacks early defense and I don't believe the shield stuff does anything outside of being hilarious vs the early reaper. I do believe than the MSC biggest problem was how well it was scaling in the midgame, overcharge still being a massive defensive tool even when armies gets over an hundred supply. In that sense nexus overcharge was a bit better, since it didn't usually stops an army by itself (but then again it was taking so much aggro I guess it was kinda nice in a lot of situations, it was just not doing a lot of damage). I really feel like blizzard will have put the msc back into the game, but somehow make it much less powerful. In closing, I'm kinda sad how much pylon overcharge gets, I feel like it was such a better design than nexus overcharge, pylon placement became a really huge deal and you were rewarded for intelligent pylon management. I would love to be proven wrong, but atm I really don't think removing the msc (or anything "1 clic defense-ish") is possible, but since most of the communities is ecstatic about it getting removed, Blizzard is never gonna backpedal on this, I just hope they discover some amazing ideas to balance it out. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16085 Posts
On August 19 2017 19:22 ihatevideogames wrote: Can Hellbats be healed by a Medivac and a Mechivac at the same time? Cause that'd be fucking hillarious to watch. I have my new build | ||
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MrWayne
219 Posts
good changes: -raven: love this change, the raven is now an actual support unit and the end of massraven lategame in TvZ and TvT -MSC/Nexus/Mothership: the MSC and overcharge are one of the dummest things right now in SC2 so i love they are gone and the choice between an economy boost or better defense adds more depth to the game. -Liberator -Stalker -Carrier -Swarm Host -QOL: HT, overseer, observer very experimental: -Mule: 1 mule on gas is like having one extra Refinery with 3 SCVs. thats crazy, it will open up a lot of new havy tech builds for terran -Smart Servos: people forget about this upgrade but it makes hellion and vikings crazy agile. I realy want to see pros use it. bad changes: -Widow Mine: this will not stop minedrops but makes the unit simply bad in army figths especially in TvZ. - Infestor: this changes makes the unit too complicated, i like a more clear behavior of units and Burrowed Fungal is still in the game the other changes are so-so and i don´t have a opinnion on them. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
There is a reason I face them nearly every game in PvT. They really aren't a huge investment (especially compared to Oracle harass) and while they aren't always cost effective, they are a lottery ticket. Every 1 in 8 or so games they might deal so much damage they win the game alone. And without Photon Overcharge, Protoss would have no answer to them, so they Widow Mines have to change. And this change actually makes them a decently designed unit, as before the Widow Mine was one of the worst designs. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46226 Posts
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MrWayne
219 Posts
On August 20 2017 01:48 BronzeKnee wrote: The Widow Mine change will help massively versus mine drops against Protoss. Especially when you don't have detection, or the Observer gets picked off by Marines in the dropship. Widow Mines can shut down mineral lines and end the game early in PvT. With this change, if you don't have detection you can sacrifice a Probe against one them kill them off. They won't sit endlessly in mineral lines. There is a reason I face them nearly every game in PvT. They really aren't a huge investment (especially compared to Oracle harass) and while they aren't always cost effective, they are a lottery ticket. Every 1 in 8 or so games they might deal so much damage they win the game alone. And without Photon Overcharge, Protoss would have no answer to them, so they Widow Mines have to change. And this change actually makes them a decently designed unit, as before the Widow Mine was one of the worst designs. you´re right, right now the widow mine is chancer vs worker, it´s good to change that but they should make it in a different way | ||
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