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On August 20 2017 09:12 20-Minute-Jackal wrote:
I don't know the math here, but wouldn't the Stalker changes actually increase their DPS? At least after attack upgrades.
Because if they're buffing the attack damage but proportionally slowing the attack speed to maintain the same DPS, Stalkers should be stronger after upgrades because they're gaining +2 now for each level of upgrade instead just +1.
Yea, it goes up by one damage every 2 seconds, or something.
So it goes up by a tiny amount. But it also shoots slower, so multiple targets basically get an advantage against it (too much time in between targets makes it get overwhelmed)
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I just wish they'd take the opportunity, while removing the MSC, to remove the adept and make it a dragoon.
How sick would it be to have a shield battery nexus, a warpable dragoon (with a twilight upgrade to have 7 range), and maybe a flat 14 damage stalker?
No more adept bullshit, no more overcharge bullshit, just a strong protoss gate army with a nexus shield battery
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be interesting to know how much better SoS's 1-base Mothership build works with the additional Gas and Minerals on the PTR.
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so uh, my thoughts so far:
1) mothership is OP
2) stalkers are probably OP vs Z late game (ultras/BL both armored)
3) PvP opening with oracle is by far best opening? if u go adepts u insta die with no defense, or have 2 stalkers, then are stuck behind defending ur base
4) stalkers DESTROY medivacs - probably need 5/6? in ur main and u can deny double drops...
5) colo stalker seems quite amazing again..
6) chrono-ing units like 2 adepts out vs Z early game makes them want to do more HotSish builds
7) as above... chrono makes T want to play more HotSish as well due to no MSC > rax pressure = better and also cuz of blink timing being insane now...
pretty much my thoughts for now
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Q7e9zSV.jpg)
I've been streaming it on and off if you wanna check out my stream, JP timezone tho rip
edit: decided ill probably make some YT videos on the changes also, so I guess I'll post those later as well.
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It's good they're still actively involved in SC2 development and balancing, but at the same time this shows to me that SC2's meta isn't satisfactory. Ever since SC BW Remastered came out for pre-testers I've been feeling more traditionalist, but constant significant meta changes isn't necessarily good for a competitive RTS and BW did not have this problem so late into its development cycle.
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On the buffing of gateway units, you know what I really want?
The sentrie shield recharge instead of a nexus shield battery. Or maybe both, I dunno. But def on the sentries. It would indirectly make ANY gateway based comp stronger, zealots adepts or stalkers. Question is how do balance it so it's not totally broken early game...upgrade or no ? Starting energy reduction on sentries? I got no idea......
Adepts shade basically made hallucination scout obsolete, do you remove the ability? I dunno....
But I would really like to see that one.... I mean, if they can put useless dark Templar blink in the game, ( I've literally seen it once, to cheese out Gumiho in GSl season 1, get rid of it!!!!) they can at least TRY it.
I might be crazy, but I would love to see dragoons in the game, but coming out of the ROOBOTICS FACILITY, lol. Kinda like immortals, like a toss version of mech, I think that would be cool....
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^ I like the sentry idea, it would essentially make them both healers and assists though, so probably would need to remove something from them because otherwise they would be too good as spellcasters.
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On August 20 2017 14:55 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
On the buffing of gateway units, you know what I really want?
The sentrie shield recharge instead of a nexus shield battery. Or maybe both, I dunno. But def on the sentries. It would indirectly make ANY gateway based comp stronger, zealots adepts or stalkers. Question is how do balance it so it's not totally broken early game...upgrade or no ? Starting energy reduction on sentries? I got no idea......
Adepts shade basically made hallucination scout obsolete, do you remove the ability? I dunno....
But I would really like to see that one.... I mean, if they can put useless dark Templar blink in the game, ( I've literally seen it once, to cheese out Gumiho in GSl season 1, get rid of it!!!!) they can at least TRY it.
I might be crazy, but I would love to see dragoons in the game, but coming out of the ROOBOTICS FACILITY, lol. Kinda like immortals, like a toss version of mech, I think that would be cool....
I'll be afraid of archons timing attacks
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Yes, this are Major changes.
Or are they Special changes? 
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On August 20 2017 14:55 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
On the buffing of gateway units, you know what I really want?
The sentrie shield recharge instead of a nexus shield battery. Or maybe both, I dunno. But def on the sentries. It would indirectly make ANY gateway based comp stronger, zealots adepts or stalkers. Question is how do balance it so it's not totally broken early game...upgrade or no ? Starting energy reduction on sentries? I got no idea......
Adepts shade basically made hallucination scout obsolete, do you remove the ability? I dunno....
But I would really like to see that one.... I mean, if they can put useless dark Templar blink in the game, ( I've literally seen it once, to cheese out Gumiho in GSl season 1, get rid of it!!!!) they can at least TRY it.
I might be crazy, but I would love to see dragoons in the game, but coming out of the ROOBOTICS FACILITY, lol. Kinda like immortals, like a toss version of mech, I think that would be cool....
there is not a single true point here.
you cant build a sentry so early and can be focused way to easy.
with the shade you cannot scout, the vision is to small, you have to commit the adept.
the new chrono gives new timings maybe, thats cool
do you even play the game?
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On August 20 2017 13:12 -Kyo- wrote:so uh, my thoughts so far: 1) mothership is OP 2) stalkers are probably OP vs Z late game (ultras/BL both armored) 3) PvP opening with oracle is by far best opening? if u go adepts u insta die with no defense, or have 2 stalkers, then are stuck behind defending ur base 4) stalkers DESTROY medivacs - probably need 5/6? in ur main and u can deny double drops... 5) colo stalker seems quite amazing again.. 6) chrono-ing units like 2 adepts out vs Z early game makes them want to do more HotSish builds 7) as above... chrono makes T want to play more HotSish as well due to no MSC > rax pressure = better and also cuz of blink timing being insane now... pretty much my thoughts for now I've been streaming it on and off if you wanna check out my stream, JP timezone tho rip edit: decided ill probably make some YT videos on the changes also, so I guess I'll post those later as well.
1. mothership is not op, you have to commit it, when it gets scouted and sniped you love big investment.
2. stalkers dmg is not increased, only the sniping ability, in big fights thats not that much against big units specially.
3. pvp will be crazy yes
4. you need to have the ability to destroy faster medivacs (point 2) because no overcharge and you need some units in defence
5. is that wrong? looks good as always vs terran. maybe we will see not 99 % adept pheonix in pvt.
6. yea t hats cool, less eco more early game pressue, but its more on the z side to defend.
7. yea terran have now way more options to pressure. because of that some stalkers needs better burst (its more about the first 1-2 shots, to snipe a medivac faster)
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pvz is now way harder. no fast 3rd possible. when the nexus is builing you have no battery. and its not that good as overcharge. you cannot easily defend without overcharge in pvt. have to always be some units in position, with the ability to snipe a medivac fast.
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shield recharge on nexus (rather than sentry) is good, it keeps protoss early game from being too powerful but bolsters their defense so they (in theory) dont die to everything. Also it does cool stuff like heal workers from harass if you need to or photon cannons which are nearby.
3. pvp will be crazy yes
when is pvp not crazy
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On August 20 2017 17:39 NutriaKaiN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2017 13:12 -Kyo- wrote:so uh, my thoughts so far: 1) mothership is OP 2) stalkers are probably OP vs Z late game (ultras/BL both armored) 3) PvP opening with oracle is by far best opening? if u go adepts u insta die with no defense, or have 2 stalkers, then are stuck behind defending ur base 4) stalkers DESTROY medivacs - probably need 5/6? in ur main and u can deny double drops... 5) colo stalker seems quite amazing again.. 6) chrono-ing units like 2 adepts out vs Z early game makes them want to do more HotSish builds 7) as above... chrono makes T want to play more HotSish as well due to no MSC > rax pressure = better and also cuz of blink timing being insane now... pretty much my thoughts for now I've been streaming it on and off if you wanna check out my stream, JP timezone tho rip edit: decided ill probably make some YT videos on the changes also, so I guess I'll post those later as well. 1. mothership is not op, you have to commit it, when it gets scouted and sniped you love big investment. 2. stalkers dmg is not increased, only the sniping ability, in big fights thats not that much against big units specially. 4. you need to have the ability to destroy faster medivacs (point 2) because no overcharge and you need some units in defence
1. mothership is certainly too strong as it is right now. with chronoboost you can get it out incredibly fast and in addition the new ease of control and ability usage in tandem with nexus recall is too strong. you can attack at literally 0 risk anywhere on the map once it's out. This works fine in BW, but I cant really see the same applications for recall being okay in SC2 with how fast everything just evaporates.
2. stalker damage IS INCREASED. the sniping ability is the whole point. if u can kite/single target BL or BC or carrier or ultra or any large, heavy investment unit much faster then it is a significant buff. to say otherwise is to undervalue how much of a difference it makes to the unit that is pretty low cost or to simply not understand it.
I will mention here though, that puck did make a point of mentioning that this isnt necessarily a bad thing in some cases. Protoss has a hard time fighting back against BC if they do not have mass, high tech air, while the parallel isn't necessarily there for T vs P air armies. In pretty much every other case though it feels like they're too strong.
4. uhhh... to just arbitrarily change unit numbers so drastically certainly is one approach.. but if it isnt questionable that if i keep/or warp in 5/6 stalkers in my main vs T past the opening of the game that I will basically never, ever take drop damage with observers it seems... questionable...
Last thing we need is a double boost on medivacs -_-;;
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About the terran Major changes :
Yeah, PvT seems to be even more unplayable.. I have no clue why they caught the idea that Terran is the strongest race and the easiest one to play. I will tell ya a secret : TvT game is one big mess. You don't see single drop and they is the game ending thing. TvP is unplayable, nor will be with the collossus buff, just because mech won't work even with new Ravens against protoss and mech is unplayable against protoss in general. The cyclone changes... I have no idea what you wanted to do there, but the anti-air weapon still does not do anything to air units. And about the upgrade, cyclone is NOT a core unit, so there's no point of making it. I don't see that ever comming into play. There was no point about nerfing widow mines. I guess you wanted to make zerg's and protoss' life easier, but that's not gonna work. Playing as toss or zerg against widow mines requires game knowledge and good micro. Zerg can just make spores and micro his drones, that's fine. Smarter way of balancing wm drops in PvT would be allowing toss to get his detection easier, than having to make gate, cyber core, robo and obs erver or gate, cyber core stargate and oracle. If you're not planning on getting pretty early upgrades, cannons are not worth it. When you're on 2 bases, getting 2 cannons, one in each mineral line will cost you 450 minerals. (forge - 150, cannon 150, cannon - 150) That could have been twilight council + 2 more gates, if you don't calculate with gas. Allowing toss to get easier detection would also solve the PvP Dark Templar thing. That does not happen so often, but if my opponent goes for proxy DT or in general for Dark Templar and I don't have robotics facility, I just die, if my opponent is just a bit smart. You cannot afford early cannons in PvP and if you have Stargate, oracle is gonna detect only one DT, if my opponent plays well. So the best solution is in my opinion to just give protoss an easier detection, because nerfing widow mines just cuts off half of terran strategies, which you already cut off good 20% of them with the tankivac removal. This wm nerf WON'T make TvP more balanced, because like why would you play widow mines after this nerf at all ? In TvT widow mines don't have big affect, but every player will have the option to play more turtle, camp and get his economy up, because Ravens have no turrets anymore. Ravens were one of very few safe choices to harass your opponent in TvT early game. I'm not sure about the Raven, we will just have to see how it actually works in game, because the meta will get really different.. In TvZ, terran will have to use tanks, which is very weak against early zergling pressure and I don't see myself getting to third base, because I have to get at least 4-5 tanks before I can move out against a ling bane army. The only option will be to drop frequently to keep zerg busy and get my own economy up. Or play mech, which I don't see happening without camping too, because if zerg spots early mech, nydus timing will just kill me. If it doesn't, Swarmhosts will. Zerg will use the nydus from early game to move around the SH in the late game quickly. Also when playing mech, the ability to clear creep is not so big. Terran will have to turtle, sit in his bases and get up economy. After 40 minutes of that when both player will have late game armies, maybe something will start happening. The ghost change is cool, it makes ghost more comfortable to play in early TvP, but here we go again. The problem with protoss detection. The mech upgrade to transform fast is kind of a experiment. But I'm not really sure if that will be researched in the early game when it would be useful, and in late, there not a point of using it. Maybe when you need to run quickly before broodlords or locusts from SH arrive, but with hellions/hellbats/vikings, you could run away either way and the upgrade does not affect siege tanks, which is the main unit that has to be safe, so I don't see that coming into play either. Do I like any of these changes ? Not sure, maybe the ghost one, but here we go again. The problem with early protoss detection. Protoss will die to ghost rush if he does not open robo, which stargate is better to open at the moment, because of the huge harass potential that oracles have. Were any of these changes necessary in any way ? I don't think so. That's JUST MY OPINION, hope I didn't forget something. Peace
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If Protoss has too much trouble to defend in the early game blizzard should increase the Shield Recharge to 4 or 5 shields per energy and let new Nexus start with 20 or 30 energy(right now they start with 0).
furthermore the new chrono boost is actually worse in the early game than the old one. the work rate increase/min is the same as the old one, 15%, and in some situations the new one is better (for example you can double chrono boost your robo the get faster colossi) but it require the same energy you need to defend.
So for example you have to defend your natural. Right now you have one or two overcharge on the MSC and 2 Nexus to chrono boost your robo or gateways. In the new patch you have only one Nexus to chrono boost because the energy from your natural is needed for Shield Recharge.
So buffing the chrono boost to something like 125% work rate increase over 10s (20% work rate increase/min) is fine i think.
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On August 20 2017 07:38 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
If Protoss is too weak early game without hte MSC then please buff the Zealot and Stalker. Buff basic//simple Protoss units with stat increases.
That's the idea, but then it can make gimmicky/all in extremely strong all-in, warp in from a prism could destroy base in second... and so on That's why, I think, warpgate must be severly nerfed in return.
Basically : Removed MSC -> Buff gateway units -> nerf warpgate.
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Russian Federation54 Posts
Dont dare touch warpgates - thit is the very basis of sc2 protoss...and its perfectly fine
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Before theorycrafting, please play with the changes.
I won with protoss even though I'm a zerg player, and it seems like twilight will be the early tech of choice for many players. SG is another one, as some protoss players open SG and get the MSC these days at the 5 minute mark. So I guess twilight on the ladder with some SG for pros.
I played Zerg, and mech seems quite strong now. On the usual ladder I don't find mech that powerful, but its quite powerful now. We'll see if it can be countered with the tools we have as zergs. Zerg was mainly nerfed (only lurkers were buffed, vipers changed a bit, SH nerfed, and infestors seems like nerfed but may be the infested terrans will make for the lack of AA).
For ZvP I can say that a problem that can arise for Protoss is the disruptor change. Disruptors now are very hard to use as long as the opposing army have melee units. So I guess the'll lose value as long as there are lings, ultras or chargelots in the mix.
For example I played a ZvP going for hydra lurker ling, and the protoss tried to counter it with Disruptors, which is supposed to be a good choice. But since I always had lings on top of his army his disruptors shoots didn't do much (may be they even blew part of his army). Therefore the disruptor change isn't that good I think, should be considered as reversing it or looking for some other change. Seems like disruptors will only be viable in PvT, as in PvZ the zerg adds lings to the mix and disruptors turn into quite useless, I guess a protoss player can add chargelots to make sure his archons doesn't blow on disruptor shoots, so disruptors will lose their only role in the PvP match up as well.
I'd consider changing it in a different way: Here is a suggestion, the moment the nova ball meets an enemy unit it doesn't blow up immediately, but instead is slowed as long as its in contact with an enemy unit. This way it won't hit center of the army, but it won't blow up automatically on the first melee units which usually are in contact with the protoss army anyway (the way it happens now).
It will give the players some room to micro so that important units dodge the nova ball so that it doesn't do game ending damage (as the design teem wants to), but it will still do damage.
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@NutriaKain
Dude, literally, when adepts came out, hallucinations stopped. Hell, any non adept opening stopped. ( okay maybe stargate..) The fact they changed the vision doesn't mean toss don't still make adepts and send em to poke across the map to find out what's going on, before it was forges and super defensive play....
Also, you notice, I said maybe recharge on the nexus too. Like come on now, lol. The sentry thing was a suggestion on buffing gateway. Cause it would basically make all the units stronger, instead of tweaking all the individual units. A suggestion, my man.
I just want some interesting, fun, unit comps. I dont care if they tried giving Toss the phase-Smith from the campaign. It would be less stupid than Archon Toilets were....
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I wrote on reddit about why I don't like the Mothershipcore removal. Might want to check it out.
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EPT
