|
On April 10 2017 06:35 Edowyth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 06:28 VHbb wrote:
one can already imagine the trend of the thread.. let's nerf something but let's call it "game design"....
-___-
You might read the thread, instead of simply insulting the author from a place of ignorance. The thread is absolutely about design. If he's "right" or "wrong" isn't the point of his OP either, but to generate discussion about the adept's current design. Further, the OP suggests an actual overhaul of the unit (mixed buffs and nerfs) to convert it to a mobile DPS unit from the gateway with no shade. Given that adepts have been either the first or second most complained-about unit from the beginning of LotV, and that the vast majority of these complaints are "it's not fun" (in other words the design is poor) rather than "I can't win" (in other words the balance is poor), and recent tournament results have Protoss players almost exclusively using adepts early-game, the thread is both timely and obviously well-intended. EDIT: Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 06:28 VHbb wrote:
And I Strongly disagree with the previous post. Protoss doesn't need a unit like marines or lings, because protoss is not terran or zerg! Your argument is literally nothing. One could just as easily claim "Protoss doesn't need air units because Protoss isn't Terran." Put some real thought into it and discover why you believe that generalist, mobile DPS units aren't needed for Toss, then make an actual argument.
Yes exactly, my intention was only to get some discussion going about the adept. As i said in my original post, i didn't think my suggestion through, i was just throwing out an idea i had for the adept. A potential new role for the unit.
I'm really sorry VHbb if you misunderstood my intentions or if my post sounded too biased or something. I want to make sure that this wasn't my goal. I don't want to nerf protoss. I want to play protoss. I want the race to be more fun again and the current state of protoss is just not fun for me right now.
The adept is not the only design decision that i personally dislike in lotv, but i just thought that talking about the adept would be a good start. Talking about specific problems, step by step to help developing Star Craft into a better game for everyone.
If you dislike my post, feel free to disagree and feel free to post your own thoughts or suggestions in a constructive way, so that as many people as possible can understand what you mean. That's the point of discussions like this 
|
I think in the original post you touched on something that would be worth looking more into... When you said you can cancel shades. If the ability to cancel was removed with the reduction to shade vision already implemented, may be all that is needed.
|
Shade is a Tier 3 Upgrade from the templar archives; problem solved.
|
I think the shade interaction is great to use/watch, but only in smaller numbers similar to reapers. Shade needs to get nerfed to where you'd only want to build maybe 2-3 tops in a game, just a like a reaper back in hots. Nerf it to where it is purely an early game harass/scouting unit like the reaper. No one wants to watch mass reapers and the mass shading between your opponents bases is just stupid.
|
We don't need a glass cannon, we need a strong core gateway unit. Good discussion, bad suggestions from op.
|
On April 10 2017 07:12 lunareaping wrote:
I think in the original post you touched on something that would be worth looking more into... When you said you can cancel shades. If the ability to cancel was removed with the reduction to shade vision already implemented, may be all that is needed.
Yes i already thought about this a lot. Basically "doing the smallest change possible with the biggest impact". That used to be blizzards philosophy on balance.
The more i think about it though, the more i fear that this will not be a good solution.
Let's think about it:
If you would take away shade cancel from current adept (slow, shade has basically no vision,...)
Then shading with all of your adepts could quickly turn into a game deciding gamble. If your shades can't get canceled and you suddenly shade infront of the opponents army, there will be no way out. You will either win the engagement, which will feel unfair for the opponent or you will lose all adepts, which will feel very random and frustrating for the protoss player.
So players would obviously either shade only one adept to scout (a possible sacrifice of the unit, still gamble and very weak scout because reduced vision) or they would shade all of their adepts on top of the opponent, if they have the necessary scouting information gathered with another scout like oracle, observer or haluc.
So this means that adept's harass potential would be slightly nerfed, but the main problem of adepts being able to bypass every defense would still exist.
That's why i suggest to redesign the adept in a way that it doesn't rely on a gimmick like the shade.
|
Id rather see less emphasis in pro games with protoss on teching super fast. So i hope however the adept would change would be based on also making storm/collossus less crucial
|
People think protoss is the problem for there being so many phoenix-adept games?
Maybe toss isn't the problem and they should look into giving the match-up more variety from protoss. Why nerf a strategy that isn't necessarily broken as far as winrates goes?
Feels like this can only happen with changes to medivac speed and liberators being extremely good in the mid-game vs any other toss strategy.
I swear the community is going to make the game worse and worse for toss players because of toss hate.
|
On April 10 2017 07:16 ReachTheSky wrote:
I think the shade interaction is great to use/watch, but only in smaller numbers similar to reapers. Shade needs to get nerfed to where you'd only want to build maybe 2-3 tops in a game, just a like a reaper back in hots. Nerf it to where it is purely an early game harass/scouting unit like the reaper. No one wants to watch mass reapers and the mass shading between your opponents bases is just stupid.
The problem is that protoss needs a gateway unit, that makes gateway tech more reliable overall, so that protoss is not forced to turtle into early tech units every game.
That was one of the bigger design problems with hots protoss. They had to either all in with gateway or turtle into tech units if they wanted to play a macro game.
Obviously no race should be forced to play the same style in every matchup. A strategy game should provide strategic freedom.
That's why gateway tech needs help and that's why they introduced adepts and nerfed or redesigned robo units like collosi and the immortal.
They shifted away the power of protoss more towards gateway tech with those changes. To make the race less onesided in terms of strength. To make protoss less reliant on high tech units.
This is clearly something good, but if you really want to make adepts "reaper-like" you have to redesign another gateway unit in order to keep gateway tech relevant and so that we don't fall back into hots protoss.
|
"First of all, this is not a balance whine thread or anything like this."
"Their design leads to imbalance, because they break basic rules of RTS."
It's clearly a balance whine thread. The least you can do is own it. Quite frankly I can't really stand it when people have "legitimate concerns about game design" or "how rts are supposed to work" and just wind up complaining about everything that's new about a current expansion. People seem to dislike change as a general rule.
|
On April 10 2017 05:27 SC2Toastie wrote:
In the end all problems stem from Warpgate...
's current implementation
|
this is so stupid. then allow only to be 1 medivac at once on the map, only then your comparison with harras will be true. you cant build 3 warpprisms and harass 3 locations, but you can do it with overlord drops and medivacs. thats the same with shades.
there is no point in this thread sorry.
|
Just remove the shade and replace it with stim
|
On April 10 2017 08:25 aQuaSC wrote:
Just remove the shade and replace it with stim
Marines and hydras are the same unit.
|
On April 09 2017 23:29 StraKo wrote:First of all, this is not a balance whine thread or anything like this.
Calling BS on this. As long as terran was winning roughly 89 out of 87 tournaments, somehow game design was unproblematic as well for you guys. Liberator is much, much worse design than adept. Start there...
|
TL:DR
Says this isn't a Balance Whine thread
Proceeds to Balance Whine for 15 paragraphs.
The problem isn't Adept, It's that Protoss has literally no other options but Adept. Everything else has been either nerfed into the ground or due to changes in warp in times make it no longer viable, Protoss live and die by doing early damage and Phoenix Adept is about the only way you can still do it, take away that and what's the point in us even playing?
|
even if it was balance whine, no one can deny that watching adepts shade en masse is a shitshow.
|
On April 10 2017 07:02 Meepman wrote: I always ask myself this lmao. Is there a rulebook? Must everyone past T3 masters or C on iccup memorize all these rules? what if we made it so that you had to complete a shade once you started it, and slowed down the shade's movement speed? This would eventually fix the harassment potential i think
I'd say the basic rules of RTS is that nothing is severly broken at a fundemental level. That everything has an appropriate risk/reward/cost factor.
|
On April 10 2017 08:16 NutriaKaiN wrote:
this is so stupid. then allow only to be 1 medivac at once on the map, only then your comparison with harras will be true. you cant build 3 warpprisms and harass 3 locations, but you can do it with overlord drops and medivacs. thats the same with shades.
there is no point in this thread sorry.
Warp prisms are much faster than medivacs or overlords. Plus the others don't have ability to transport 4 units and then create another 15 on location haha
I think the point was that Adepts being able to choose to attack two locations instantly is broken. with overlords or medivacs you need double the units to attack more than one spot at once.
On April 10 2017 07:46 krlwlzn wrote:
"First of all, this is not a balance whine thread or anything like this."
"Their design leads to imbalance, because they break basic rules of RTS."
It's clearly a balance whine thread. The least you can do is own it. Quite frankly I can't really stand it when people have "legitimate concerns about game design" or "how rts are supposed to work" and just wind up complaining about everything that's new about a current expansion. People seem to dislike change as a general rule.
They were saying that it's meant to be a constructive thread instead of a whiney one. If you think something needs improvement, that isn't a whine. They weren't saying protoss is disgustingly overpowered in LoTV. Are you gonna get mad everytime someone has balance concerns? Maybe you just think Adepts are in a perfect spot idk
|
On April 10 2017 07:54 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 05:27 SC2Toastie wrote:
In the end all problems stem from Warpgate... 's current implementation
Current meaning the last 7 years?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
