EPTAdept Discussion - Page 3
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
Current meaning current. It may happen to be as it was 7 years ago. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
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StraKo
Germany96 Posts
On April 10 2017 11:31 swissman777 wrote: It says that this is not a balance whine... what's the difference of whine and discussion? A discussion tries to be constructive so that we can actually learn something from it. | ||
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octomologyst
12 Posts
remove shade, increase speed to faster than a stalker but slower than a reaper, reduce hp and sheilds, increase attack speed but maintain base DPS and then change the upgrade to be a per hit buff or maybe just attack speed again. MAYBE plus 1 range but probably not. if protoss can defend multiple locations in the early game sans MSC then recall goes to what, the oracle? and becomes a fleet beacon upgrade? recall being a cyber upgrade would be cool too. oracle would need a nerf to pulsar beam (like 3 shot workers or somethin) and an hp buff. oracle the new arbiter but defensive? still might need a shield battery or something. pylon overcharge is just dumb. | ||
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Die4Ever
United States17736 Posts
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
Adepts cannot attack while shaded. If that's too much. Maybe they can be invulnerable while being unable to attack. Adepts would still be very powerful and annoying with the ability to threaten multiple locations. But they now have to make a decision between killing harvesters or using shade. They can't mow down one mineral line WHILE shading to the next one. | ||
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AxiomBlurr
786 Posts
1) I think you all need to rewatch Gumiho V Stats. He shows how punishable the P+A style is. 2) Other high level protosses (Classic, Zest, Trap, sOs, Hush - he is playing well atm) are having a very hard time against T. Check their previous V T games in the recent GSL. TY, Maru, Innovation all smashed this style in the recent GSL, only Stats held strong. Alive pantsed Hush 3-0 in this comp. 3) herO plays this style the best of all Protosses, Stats is more versatile, but does not have herO's micro skills. herO played extremely well in this comp. Give the man credit. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On April 09 2017 23:29 StraKo wrote: Hi guys, sorry for the long read, but i think we really have to talk about this topic. First of all, this is not a balance whine thread or anything like this. I would like to talk with you guys about the adept's design and why it is problematic for SC2. I hope we can share some thoughts down below  The problem with adepts is their core design. Their design leads to imbalance, because they break basic rules of RTS. Something is fishy here... | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
Great way to discredit any meaningful discussion by trying to make the OP look like a balance whiner. | ||
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Heartland
Sweden24604 Posts
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Aunvilgodess
954 Posts
On April 10 2017 12:27 octomologyst wrote: my thoughts: remove shade, increase speed to faster than a stalker but slower than a reaper, reduce hp and sheilds, increase attack speed but maintain base DPS and then change the upgrade to be a per hit buff or maybe just attack speed again. MAYBE plus 1 range but probably not. if protoss can defend multiple locations in the early game sans MSC then recall goes to what, the oracle? and becomes a fleet beacon upgrade? recall being a cyber upgrade would be cool too. oracle would need a nerf to pulsar beam (like 3 shot workers or somethin) and an hp buff. oracle the new arbiter but defensive? still might need a shield battery or something. pylon overcharge is just dumb. More glass cannons is exactly what we DONT need. Less dps and more health increases micro potential. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
On April 10 2017 11:37 StraKo wrote: A discussion tries to be constructive so that we can actually learn something from it. So basically everything that wasn't what you did then? | ||
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xTJx
Brazil419 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
Adept HP reduced substantially - adept shields increased slightly less than the HP was reduced. Using adept shade now removes all of the shielding from the unit. This now creates a decision - does the Protoss want to use the adept as a part of his army, or commit the adepts to harrassment? If the adept shade is not used, it is basically just a ranged army unit with slightly less total health than the current iteration. If the adept shade is used, it is now more easily counterable because of having a lot less HP. Also, collision should be added to the adept shade. This unit should not be able to shade "on top" of armies. That is absolutely terrible and has zero counter play. Adept shade also should not be cancellable. No unit should be able to be in two places at once like this unit. It essentially replaced the zealot completely because it's a ranged hyper-mobile overpowered zealot. As for Protoss balance in general with weakened adepts, this can be solved by adding back 1500 mineral patches to each base. Part of the reason Protoss sucks in LOTV when you're not massing overpowered adepts is because minerals were removed from each base. Once adepts are fixed, blizzard can also go on to address other ridiculous things like warp prism pick-up range and carriers. Also, in relation to this thread - no one here can make the argument that adepts are healthy for gameplay or balanced. How many Zealots were built during this GSL finals? Zero. That fact alone should make you realize the adept is so good it ENTIRE REPLACED A CORE PROTOSS UNIT in the game. That is not a sign of good balance or design. | ||
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fx9
117 Posts
On April 10 2017 10:05 Fango wrote: Warp prisms are much faster than medivacs or overlords. Plus the others don't have ability to transport 4 units and then create another 15 on location haha I think the point was that Adepts being able to choose to attack two locations instantly is broken. with overlords or medivacs you need double the units to attack more than one spot at once. you're clearly cherry-picking to justify your whine on toss. 1st of all, dropping 4 zealots/adepts is a lot less scarier than dropping 8 stim marines, 8 lings, 4mines, 4 banes or 4hellions at the back of your mineral lines. A prism full of units will cost more than a 8lings or 8marines drop. After warp-in, the toss units will 99% of the time be lost because guess what, the prism can only hold 4 units. Meanwhile, medivacs can zip in and out with whole army intact. And medivacs have the stupid boost. and Overlord drop is a tier1 tech. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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todespolka
221 Posts
On April 10 2017 05:21 JackONeill wrote: The problem with the adept is the shade, only the shade, and for 2 very particular reason : - harass : shading left and right between mineral lines : minimal amount of skill required, but terran pros can't even defend it efficiently - snowball : the reason why adepts snowball so hard is because no matter how many adept you have or the nature of your opponent's army, with the shade ALL your adepts will be able to fight. If you compare 30 adepts and 30 roaches, roaches can't dive into an ennemy army (for all the roaches to shoot without needing a 360° concave) without suffering losse. On the other hand, shades assure that each and every adept you have will be able to shoot all the time, not matter where the fight is located. I don't mind protoss needing "assault/shock" troops since with the siege tank and the ravager buffs, stalkers not fit a smaller role in the game (which is good, they were omnipresent in HOTS). But some design changes to the adept shade NEED to happen for this unit to be less abusive. The snowball could be solved with: The adept takes more damage after a shade for short period of time (just as warped in units). This way protoss will think twice before he shades on top of an army. Shading between mineral lines is an issue, but a very problematic one, because protoss needs 1-2 adepts being able to shade between mineral lines, but as soon as he has more adepts, they are able to avoid fights, kill workers and mass more and more adepts. This could be solved with a higher cooldown, which gives more time to the opponent to kill the adepts. But it is a very risky one. It could make adepts useless. I would like to see a smarter solution. | ||
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gingerfluffmuff
Austria4570 Posts
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Turb0Sw4g
74 Posts
On April 10 2017 05:21 JackONeill wrote: The problem with the adept is the shade, only the shade Yes, exactly. The idea of a strong anti-light Gateway unit was good and Protoss needed it. The shade in combination with tankiness creates the abuse potential. It would be reasonable to give a high DPS but comparatively weak unit a skill based escape option. A tanky unit with a 1-button-escape however doesn't make sense. On April 10 2017 06:25 Edowyth wrote: Protoss doesn't need flashy units like the current Adept. It needs a generalist to begin to scale-back the too-specialized nature of its army! I agree with this, but I think the generalist unit should be the Stalker, not the Adept. So, I would like to see following changes:
My idea for a passive survival abilty would be a movement speed stack which increases with each attack and decays after leaving combat: for example, let's say each Adept gains 10% per hit up to 5 times for a 50% movement speed bonus with a full stack. With a full stack, Adepts would be microable similar to Marines or Hydras (stutter-step-micro, splits and all that). Because of the lowered HP and shields, they would however be a lot easier to take down than Zealots or even Stalkers. I figure that with these attributes, there's a clear differentiation between Zealots, Stalkers and Adepts. Zealots are tanky DSP (with Charge). Stalkers are all-round and shoot air. Adepts are good in the early game—with good micro—and pair well with a Warp Prism for harassment. | ||
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