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The design flaw that gives rise to these pointless balance discussions is unlimited unit selection. The Adept is doing nothing that the Marine hasn't done for the past 6 years. The difference is that Stim has to be researched where psionic transfer does not. Being able to select 30 adepts or 30 marines all at once then Stim or Psionic Transfer creates this problem.
The unit balance will always be impossible in Starcraft 2 because death-balls of units are too easy to move and cast spells with. High mobility units in Starcraft 2 are already amazing just due to the smoothness of pathing. This smoothness and high mobility coupled with the ability to move and cast spells has created an impossible situation for Blizzard.
TLDR; Stop complaining about the Adept because the Marine has been doing the same thing for years. Instead, look at the design flaw that gives masses of units the ability to move and cast spells all at once.
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On May 02 2017 04:07 FarmI3oy wrote:
The design flaw that gives rise to these pointless balance discussions is unlimited unit selection. The Adept is doing nothing that the Marine hasn't done for the past 6 years. The difference is that Stim has to be researched where psionic transfer does not. Being able to select 30 adepts or 30 marines all at once then Stim or Psionic Transfer creates this problem.
The unit balance will always be impossible in Starcraft 2 because death-balls of units are too easy to move and cast spells with. High mobility units in Starcraft 2 are already amazing just due to the smoothness of pathing. This smoothness and high mobility coupled with the ability to move and cast spells has created an impossible situation for Blizzard.
TLDR; Stop complaining about the Adept because the Marine has been doing the same thing for years. Instead, look at the design flaw that gives masses of units the ability to move and cast spells all at once.
yeah that never going to change
and on what level can you call it a design flaw? its just the way the game was made, not some flaw
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While there are valid points raised about adepts general tankiness and overlap with zealot, fixing the shade itself should be extremely easy....
All that is needed is to make it a chanelling ability i.e. you cannot move adepts while shading. They can probably still continue to fire while shading so that they don't become too weak.
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On May 02 2017 04:20 starkiller123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2017 04:07 FarmI3oy wrote:
The design flaw that gives rise to these pointless balance discussions is unlimited unit selection. The Adept is doing nothing that the Marine hasn't done for the past 6 years. The difference is that Stim has to be researched where psionic transfer does not. Being able to select 30 adepts or 30 marines all at once then Stim or Psionic Transfer creates this problem.
The unit balance will always be impossible in Starcraft 2 because death-balls of units are too easy to move and cast spells with. High mobility units in Starcraft 2 are already amazing just due to the smoothness of pathing. This smoothness and high mobility coupled with the ability to move and cast spells has created an impossible situation for Blizzard.
TLDR; Stop complaining about the Adept because the Marine has been doing the same thing for years. Instead, look at the design flaw that gives masses of units the ability to move and cast spells all at once. yeah that never going to change and on what level can you call it a design flaw? its just the way the game was made, not some flaw
I call it a design flaw because Blizzard did not weigh the compounding effects of other design decisions along with unlimited unit selection.
Need I remind you that they thought a real-money auction house in Diablo 3 was a good idea? Diablo 3's loot system was designed with the auction house in mind. So yes, it is just the way the game was made but that does not mean it is not a flaw.
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On May 03 2017 06:27 FarmI3oy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2017 04:20 starkiller123 wrote:On May 02 2017 04:07 FarmI3oy wrote:
The design flaw that gives rise to these pointless balance discussions is unlimited unit selection. The Adept is doing nothing that the Marine hasn't done for the past 6 years. The difference is that Stim has to be researched where psionic transfer does not. Being able to select 30 adepts or 30 marines all at once then Stim or Psionic Transfer creates this problem.
The unit balance will always be impossible in Starcraft 2 because death-balls of units are too easy to move and cast spells with. High mobility units in Starcraft 2 are already amazing just due to the smoothness of pathing. This smoothness and high mobility coupled with the ability to move and cast spells has created an impossible situation for Blizzard.
TLDR; Stop complaining about the Adept because the Marine has been doing the same thing for years. Instead, look at the design flaw that gives masses of units the ability to move and cast spells all at once. yeah that never going to change and on what level can you call it a design flaw? its just the way the game was made, not some flaw I call it a design flaw because Blizzard did not weigh the compounding effects of other design decisions along with unlimited unit selection. Need I remind you that they thought a real-money auction house in Diablo 3 was a good idea? Diablo 3's loot system was designed with the auction house in mind. So yes, it is just the way the game was made but that does not mean it is not a flaw.
While RMH wasn't a good idea, i think unlimited selection is fine. Think of all the games that already have it - the way that engagements happen in SC2 (specifically the SPEED with which they happen) would make a limited selection worthless (or at least wildly frustrating).
I think one of the big issues is how tightly all units pack together - a lot of things could be mitigated by having the units have larger collision boxes (forcing units to spread out a little more, reducing the affect of AOE, and forcing units to have to path a short distance longer to set up a proper concave, etc).
It would slow down engagements from an attacking perspective (units jostling around longer to get into position), it would slow down engagements from a defending perspective (aoe isn't as powerful) and I think it would make the game a little bit better.
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On May 03 2017 06:34 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2017 06:27 FarmI3oy wrote:On May 02 2017 04:20 starkiller123 wrote:On May 02 2017 04:07 FarmI3oy wrote:
The design flaw that gives rise to these pointless balance discussions is unlimited unit selection. The Adept is doing nothing that the Marine hasn't done for the past 6 years. The difference is that Stim has to be researched where psionic transfer does not. Being able to select 30 adepts or 30 marines all at once then Stim or Psionic Transfer creates this problem.
The unit balance will always be impossible in Starcraft 2 because death-balls of units are too easy to move and cast spells with. High mobility units in Starcraft 2 are already amazing just due to the smoothness of pathing. This smoothness and high mobility coupled with the ability to move and cast spells has created an impossible situation for Blizzard.
TLDR; Stop complaining about the Adept because the Marine has been doing the same thing for years. Instead, look at the design flaw that gives masses of units the ability to move and cast spells all at once. yeah that never going to change and on what level can you call it a design flaw? its just the way the game was made, not some flaw I call it a design flaw because Blizzard did not weigh the compounding effects of other design decisions along with unlimited unit selection. Need I remind you that they thought a real-money auction house in Diablo 3 was a good idea? Diablo 3's loot system was designed with the auction house in mind. So yes, it is just the way the game was made but that does not mean it is not a flaw. While RMH wasn't a good idea, i think unlimited selection is fine. Think of all the games that already have it - the way that engagements happen in SC2 (specifically the SPEED with which they happen) would make a limited selection worthless (or at least wildly frustrating). I think one of the big issues is how tightly all units pack together - a lot of things could be mitigated by having the units have larger collision boxes (forcing units to spread out a little more, reducing the affect of AOE, and forcing units to have to path a short distance longer to set up a proper concave, etc). It would slow down engagements from an attacking perspective (units jostling around longer to get into position), it would slow down engagements from a defending perspective (aoe isn't as powerful) and I think it would make the game a little bit better.
Yes other games have it. None of which that are as successful as Starcraft 2 or Brood War for that matter.
I have had this argument many times with people. Sadly, none of them can back up their argument with objective facts about the nature of the game. They say that taking unlimited unit selection is "frustrating," "annoying" or some other subjective feeling they have.
For those who were around in the Warcraft 3 Beta days. The game was terrible in beta because there was no upkeep. Weeks before launch they added that simple restriction in and the game became 100x better and actually playable in multiplayer. However, till this day, upkeep is reviled and hated by some because it is "frustrating" or "annoying." When in reality it is the only thing that saved that game.
I apologize for hijacking the thread, but I thought I would at least point out a structural problem about the game. Because mass Psionic Transfer is the new mass Stimpack. The Adept problem is nothing new. Just a new unit that suffers the same problem as the Marine.
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Because mass Psionic Transfer is the new mass Stimpack. The Adept problem is nothing new. Just a new unit that suffers the same problem as the Marine.
How is stimpack compareable to adept shades ?
Stimpack is a risk/reward mechanic. When you activate stimpack, your bio forces will lose health permanently for a temporarily movement speed and attack speed boost.
To regain health, you need a good amount of medivacs to support your bio force. Without the support of medivacs, bio will lose more and more health and value.
Adept shades can get canceled at any time, don't affect the unit stats in any negative or positive way, increase unit value because adepts can shade through defense without taking damage like every other unit in the game, allows adepts to effectively be in 2 spots at once and therefore force more defense than usually necessary,...
I don't think you can compare shades and stimpack.
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To me the Adept should fit into the Protoss Gateway arsenal as a unit dedicated to harass. No other (early game) Gateway unit has this bent, and so making the unit perhaps a bit faster but with dramatically less hp would force engagements to cost something for the Protoss player.
This way a decision to simply land on top of units would be generally a bad one, as the Adept would then be considered a sort of "stick and move" sort of unit comparable to the reaper or hellion. It would even be possible in this design to shorten the cooldown on the shade so that they end up functioning like ping pong balls, rewarding the player who catches them but also rewarding the player who is great with adept micro. Right now adepts are too much of a blunt force weapon.
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On April 10 2017 04:34 IMPrime wrote:
You have to be very careful about nerfing the adept because tosses are very reliant on adepts to beat terrans, and the race has partially been balanced around adepts (for example, colossi were OK to nerf upon LotV release partially because adepts destroy marines so badly). Obviously adepts definitely need a reworking but you will need to consider the sweeping effects that would happen if adepts get nerfed.
There are many ways you can alter the adept, but I believe that removing the shade ability entirely is required in some way. Shade just breaks too many rules of RTS's. What other changes would need to be made to compensate for this, I'm not sure, but shade has to go.
Agree a lot with this, you can nerf it but then you need to tweak the match-up to compensate somehow. I wonder how PvP changes if you nerf adepts much
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On May 04 2017 01:25 lgd dragoon noctis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2017 04:34 IMPrime wrote:
You have to be very careful about nerfing the adept because tosses are very reliant on adepts to beat terrans, and the race has partially been balanced around adepts (for example, colossi were OK to nerf upon LotV release partially because adepts destroy marines so badly). Obviously adepts definitely need a reworking but you will need to consider the sweeping effects that would happen if adepts get nerfed.
There are many ways you can alter the adept, but I believe that removing the shade ability entirely is required in some way. Shade just breaks too many rules of RTS's. What other changes would need to be made to compensate for this, I'm not sure, but shade has to go. Agree a lot with this, you can nerf it but then you need to tweak the match-up to compensate somehow. I wonder how PvP changes if you nerf adepts much
The problem is that I have yet to see Protoss come up with a suitable response to liberator/siege/mine and bio that doesn't rely on either miraculous disruptor shots, a horrible positioning error, or adepts.
So we can nerf the adept harassment capability, but I think Protoss needs a standup unit that can actually fight on a semi-even footing with Terran bio whether that be the adept or some buff to a gateway unit.
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Stimpack is a risk/reward mechanic. When you activate stimpack, your bio forces will lose health permanently for a temporarily movement speed and attack speed boost.
Very good point, and although I am not sure the Adept is imbalanced at all right now. I am generally quite hesitant to ever draw that conclusion. I think from a game design point of view it could be made more interesting for the game, if a better risk/reward dynamic was introduced for adepts.
Like I would be interested in actually both making them MORE versitile while adding a serious downside to the shade. For example, maybe shade depletes shields, reduce the range they can shade but cut the cooldown so they can shade more often. Essentially making it possible for good players to do more with them, but reduce the fire and forget while also adding somer serious consequences to doing really dumb shade ins on a lot of them.
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So let's say the shade was completely removed, like tankivac was last year. Tankivac was replaced by additional +armored damage, what should the adept, or protoss in general, get?
Edit: in my opinion, adding a downside to shading like a few others have suggested is better than removing it.
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On May 04 2017 05:09 jalstar wrote:
So let's say the shade was completely removed, like tankivac was last year. Tankivac was replaced by additional +armored damage, what should the adept, or protoss in general, get?
Edit: in my opinion, adding a downside to shading like a few others have suggested is better than removing it.
Unpopular opinion, but how about we remove adepts, but buff stalkers to compensate.
It's just a thought^^
You would obviously make it an upgrade or something like this to make it not overpowered in the early game or in all ins.
As someone who used to offrace protoss and prefers the BW toss design over SC2 protoss, i really like the idea of a better stalker. More dragoon like.
Edit:
I know how drastic a change like this would be, but honestly i feel like that's exactly what lotv needs. We won't get far, with the way how lotv plays out currently :/
Atleast that's what i think.
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The Adept fix has to coincide with the lore somehow. Psionic Transfer isn't going anywhere because it is "their ability."
If anything they should just make it so you cannot cancel the Transfer/Shade. Once you decide to hit the button to Transfer that should be it. You should have already weighed the "risk versus reward"
Then we can talk about actually making the spell useful. Such as the Shade increasing damage taken by all sources or something (like in the campaign). Make it so adepts do +9 versus light and units take +4 damage if they get hit by the shade. Something along those lines I think would be best.
I am completely unable to foresee fixing this unit without removing the ability to cancel the Shade. Can sit here and tweak numbers without taking it away all day but the problem remains the same.
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EPT
