EPTAdept Discussion - Page 11
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MorDka
Poland543 Posts
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jpg06051992
United States580 Posts
Adept Problem 1) Shade is a gimmick ability (not low skill) but is not a popular ability for a reason that prevents the Adept from just being an all around good unit. It completely negates building Zealots early to mid game as the Adept is just as tanky, possesses an ability like Psi Transfer, and is ranged. Currently it is a bulky (less now with HP nerf thank God) super Zealot until Twilight where Zealots get legs but if already heavily invested into Adepts, why not just more Adepts? Shade needs to go, plain and simple. Adept Solution (to both increase skill cap and make less of an early game powerhouse unit but scale well into the mid and late game, decreasing Protoss reliance on rushing Robo units or Skytoss) 2) Buff the Adept movement speed to be more agile and easier to micro like the Stalker is, this will raise the skill cap of Adepts in a very easy to way see, much like there is a huge difference between a random GM splitting his marines and watching Maru or Innovation split. 3) Change Glavie upgrade to a 200/200 upgrade, but also make it ignore armor on biological units, this will enable the Adept to truly be a front line fighter in the actual mid game (not EARLY mid game) especially against M/M/M/M and Roach/Hydralisk armies, both of which annihilate full Gateway compositions. | ||
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MLuneth
Australia557 Posts
Could you expand on how raising adept movespeed would increase micro potential? At 4 range it has less than a bio ball. The only other interaction that ms buff would change is adepts getting to your base quicker which messes with PvZ and PvP a lot. | ||
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StraKo
Germany96 Posts
It doesn't matter how you nerf the units' stats. The core issue is the shade ability. I wish protoss could have a unit that doesn't need shades to be useful. The adept shade alone is obviously not the only problem. How is protoss supposed to engage into liberator/tank without shades ? LotV brought too many new things that created too many bad gameplay elements and required a lot of band-aids in order to work out balance wise. I honestly feel like LotV can't get into a really good spot, without reworking or removing multiple units. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
It's stupid to have a unit that can be at two places at once. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24237 Posts
On May 01 2017 19:12 StraKo wrote: Don't wanna be that guy, but i still think adepts need to be redesigned. It doesn't matter how you nerf the units' stats. The core issue is the shade ability. I wish protoss could have a unit that doesn't need shades to be useful. The adept shade alone is obviously not the only problem. How is protoss supposed to engage into liberator/tank without shades ? LotV brought too many new things that created too many bad gameplay elements and required a lot of band-aids in order to work out balance wise. I honestly feel like LotV can't get into a really good spot, without reworking or removing multiple units. wholeheartedly agree ; unfortunately this is never going to happen. | ||
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StraKo
Germany96 Posts
On May 01 2017 20:45 [PkF] Wire wrote: wholeheartedly agree ; unfortunately this is never going to happen. Yea probably... It's really not understandable for me why blizzard is reacting so slow to obvious gameplay issues. I know that some things need some time to get figured out, so that the best possible solutions can be found, but in lotv there is just so much overkill. There is so much stuff in lotv that doesn't feel like "okay let it settle a few months and then we can see what's going on,..." They feel more like "how the hell did this even get out of beta ?" LotV multiplayer development got rushed in my opinion. They screwed over so many basic designs and unit interactions. Instead of keeping the good and getting rid of the bad stuff, they just screwed everything over. It's also interesting how they even tested things like automatic macro to make the game more accessible, while adding mechanics like adept shades, reaper grenades, 1base overlord drops, reduced ressources per base, pylon rushes, 8armor ultras/liberator,... etc. Just so many things that make the game almost impossible to enjoy for new players. It feels like they had no real direction at this point. They were willing to change even the most fundamental RTS mechanics. I dont know man. As a veteran SC2 player, who invested a lot of time and passion into the game, it just feels kinda pointless to keep on playing at this point. SC2 is basically a hobby for me and unfortunately people changed it into a direction that i really don't like and that i can't understand and i just can't do anything about it. It's not in my hands, it's not in anybodys hands. All i can do is hope that some day something will happen. Until then i'll play a few ladder games a week and then quit again, because the game pisses me off so much. It's sad. I mean just look at the game, it could be so amazing. It has so much potential. SC2 could be so much better with so little effort, but just nothing happens. Now they finally nerfed adepts, but instead of actually fixing the problem that adept shades create, they just nerf the HP a little bit. BL/infestor, swarmhost/raven, 8armor ultra/liberator/skytoss/adepts,... All those "era's" hurt the game and the scene so much, but they just don't seem to learn from the past for some reason. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 01 2017 20:18 JackONeill wrote: The fact that every single protoss matchup revolves around dropping adept into mineral lines at some point is ridiculous. Even if you don't consider the frustration this induces, we've seen since november 2015 that even the best pros can't deal with it. It's stupid to have a unit that can be at two places at once. How is this different from widow mine drops which destroy probes in seconds if you don't react? | ||
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nonoes
24 Posts
terran bias | ||
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-Kuya
Australia20 Posts
On May 01 2017 20:18 JackONeill wrote: The fact that every single protoss matchup revolves around dropping adept into mineral lines at some point is ridiculous. Even if you don't consider the frustration this induces, we've seen since november 2015 that even the best pros can't deal with it. It's stupid to have a unit that can be at two places at once. How is this really *that* different than Terrans dropping marines in every matchup. | ||
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-Kuya
Australia20 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Whether or not you think the argument is valid, doesn't have any bearing on the fact that there are differences. | ||
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-Kuya
Australia20 Posts
On May 01 2017 22:11 Dangermousecatdog wrote: The difference is that widowmines and marines don't have the ability to instantaneously teleport between mineral fields, nor do medivacs have the ability to warp down more marines and widowmines. Whether or not you think the argument is valid, doesn't have any bearing on the fact that there are differences. Everyone understands that there are differences in the units, but what's being argued is that "This shouldn't be happening every matchup" which is a weak argument at best because every race has a standard playstyle involving some sort of unit spam and (in this case) drop play. So the question I posed was "Is it really *THAT* different?" | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 01 2017 21:39 Shield wrote: How is this different from widow mine drops which destroy probes in seconds if you don't react? How many pro games end because the player physically can't deal with nothing but widow mines being dropped? Not many. That's rare. How many games end because adepts got warped in the main base and started shading everywhere? Even the best players in the world can't stop it half the time. Its not even comparable. Widow mines and marines can't teleport between bases, and they're also not tanky as fuck. A couple overcharges and maybe a probe pull is usually enough to null small drops. Plus you cant warp in 8 at a time inside they're base. Widow mines vs oracles? That's comparable I guess. But adepts are just broken | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On May 01 2017 22:25 -Kuya wrote: Everyone understands that there are differences in the units, but what's being argued is that "This shouldn't be happening every matchup" which is a weak argument at best because every race has a standard playstyle involving some sort of unit spam and (in this case) drop play. So the question I posed was "Is it really *THAT* different?" If pro players were constantly losing games to single medivac marine/mine drops at the start, then it would be a problem. But that rarely happens. How often do you see pros lose once the first round of adepts is warped it? Every tournament | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On May 01 2017 22:30 Fango wrote: If pro players were constantly losing games to single medivac marine/mine drops at the start, then it would be a problem. But that rarely happens. How often do you see pros lose once the first round of adepts is warped it? Every tournament Well, maybe it's time for terrans to think how starport should be used rather than brainless medivac/liberator spam. It helps to have a viking or two on patrol to defend against warp prism. | ||
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IAmWithStupid
Russian Federation1016 Posts
What if ghost's EMP could (1) cancel the shade or, in the opposite, (2) force it? I understand, ghost tech is a late game tool and EMP has many applications that are more useful. (2) is quite nice in theory. Protoss usually shades in 10-15 adepts, sees 5 liberation zones, 3 widow mines, cancels the shades and seeks another angle of approach. With EMP risk Protoss has to be much more careful. | ||
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LTCM
174 Posts
Early game adepts from a gateway will still be able to defend Reapers. Adepts will still be able to trade with light units, which is desperately needed from a gateway unit. Protoss will still have a traditional style harassment use for adepts - dropping four previously warped in units or running groups into bases - but those options carry more risk. In return for this shade nerf and the previous 10 HP nerf, you could reduce the cost of Charge and slightly buff Stalker DPS, mainly for AA. Bam, you solve so many problems at once. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On May 01 2017 22:25 -Kuya wrote: Everyone understands that there are differences in the units, but what's being argued is that "This shouldn't be happening every matchup" which is a weak argument at best because every race has a standard playstyle involving some sort of unit spam and (in this case) drop play. So the question I posed was "Is it really *THAT* different?" I think the difference is that if you scout and prepare for terran marines/mine drops you can prepare and shut them down with relative ease. Thats just not the case with adepts. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
On May 01 2017 23:09 Shield wrote: Well, maybe it's time for terrans to think how starport should be used rather than brainless medivac/liberator spam. It helps to have a viking or two on patrol to defend against warp prism. Not only are WP much faster than vikings, but also you would need too many vikings to patrol every zone and actually stopping all WP from entering. Plus the fact that terran can't really affor not making medivacs at the start of the game without dying. On May 01 2017 21:48 nonoes wrote: there is no difference : you could use the same sentence and just replace terran, marines and 2010 from 2015. terran bias There was a huge effort in making MMM not so prevalent, including nerfing the marauder, adding adepts and buffing banelings. Plus giving more tools to bio play in the form of WM and liberators. | ||
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