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On April 13 2017 00:23 Sakat wrote:
I will not pretend I'm any sort of expert on anything, just share my experience playing...
I play all three races (depending on how I feel at any given day) and when I play as P, I literally only make adepts + something for AA, most people at my level just kinda die to it anyway because neither of us can micro properly or defend multiple locations correctly...
Adepts got me into Plat when I can't even reach Silver with Z and am struggling to climb out of Gold with T...
Protoss was my weakest race in HotS...
I felt the same way last year with 16 marine medivac timing. I didn't know how to do SHIT as Terran except that and holy hell every Zerg crumbled to it. Because I knew exactly how it beat me every time I faced it.
Even without thinking you have great micro, knowing how to execute something challenging is a big pain in the butt for your opponent.
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France12911 Posts
On April 13 2017 06:38 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 13 2017 03:09 Vutalisk wrote:On April 13 2017 02:16 Fango wrote:On April 13 2017 00:31 Vutalisk wrote:On April 12 2017 02:48 icesergio wrote:The hypocrisy of the people contributing to this thread, in primis the OP himself is absolutely mind baffling. I'm going to quote The Joker and say "Terran wins a major and nobody bats an eye, Protoss wins a major tournament and everybody loses their minds" Trying to win an arguement as a Protoss player, like MCanning said, is near impossible, trying to talk sense to you is also impossibile, because understanding that every race has their gimmicks and accepting that is just too much for your ant dimensioned brains, so here I propose another arguement: Win rates are MOSTLY balanced, and when I say MOSTLY I don't mean Protoss favoured, I mean Terran or Zerg favoured. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Feast upon your eyes! I love how you try to mask your whining with phrases like "It's boring to watch" or "It is a bad design gameplay wise" It's a good thing we have all you Real Time Strategy gurus, seriously, I wouldn't know what to do without you! /s Every race has a frustrating gimmicky unit that serves no purpose other than to keep win rates in the 50-50 zone, Terran has Stimmed Marauders that FYI deal more DPS than Immortals when stimmed vs Armored targets (which makes complete sense doesn't it?) Widow mine drops are probably the most frustrating thing to deal with as Protoss, the fact that Immortals completely melt against the new siege tank... Ravagers that can kite almost every Protoss ground unit even off creep and have no PROPER counter due to the lack of either a light or armored tag. (Archons, thanks to the +bio damage) are the ONLY unit that Protoss has that deals additional damage directly, but thanks to their 3 range they can be kited by Ravagers all day. Forget catching Ravagers without Disruptors and/or Chargelots. So just SUCK it up, accept that Protoss is part of the game and as such can also WIN tournaments and, just like any of you would say to one of us the moment we even tried to propose a nerf to one of your much loved units "Git Gud" Dude, I applaud you so much right now. ByuN 3-rax-reaper his way to victories (BlizzCon and GSL) and no one said a damn thing. Protoss won GSL and Super Tournament and giant explosion of "Adept is OP" following. People think adepts and phoenixes are like piece of cake. Spamming them and win. Yah right. If Terran turtle up and bunkers, WMs and tanks, they should be fine. By the time, they get enough Marauders and WMs, they will bully the Protoss big time. No one seems to whine about that. Many Terrans like to push prematurely vs Adepts/Phoenixes (like 2 Medivacs + 16 marines with no stim), lose and then whine adepts are OP. ByuN 3-raxed in like 3 maps in all of blizzcon and barely ever in GSL. Most his games were won through marine pushes and harass. And btw EVERYONE agreed 3rax was broken at the time. I can't remember people saying it was balanced (they probably did idk, some people defend anything) although byuN did have the best control, there's no way to stop it being efficient TY did a tank push twice in IEM, while winning many long macro games. And everyone still agreed it's OP vs robo herO massed 2 units every game of the tournament near enough and none of the terrans could do anything. Until terran players can actually win against it, there's no way to call it balanced. Remember when people said PvT was balanced in 2014? when every game was either blink allin or 3 base deathball being unstoppable? Yeah, that herO didn't mass Adepts/Phoenixes every game. He did in fact lose one game (Game 4) which was really the case of "massing". Also, Terran is not always losing to mass adepts/phoenixes. herO wins some and lose some. Also, what else can Protoss do to win vs T? Robo play and then as you said it, they do Tanks push and you die. Adepts/Phoenixes play is at least viable. Until you somehow allow Protoss to win vs T in another way then by all mean, nerfing A/P. It's amazingly funny how everyone is like "you can only phoenix/adept else you die to tanks!!" but it's really not that easy to die to tanks when you do something else. Anyways the game was better before the 3.8 tankivac nerf and all other units changes :/, they should have just changed the ultras and the things that were wrong in ZvP and call it a day. Tankivac singlehandedly made me leave the game. It was so so so fucking stupid.
I dunno it is far less stupid than raven harass, doom drops being even stronger in TvT because you can't use tankivacs with more tanks to deal with it, etc...
Against roach/ravager it added micro possibilities etc...
Was cooler than what we have now.
TY vs ByuN or ByuN vs Ryung were superb TvT back then!
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On April 13 2017 07:09 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 06:38 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 13 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 13 2017 03:09 Vutalisk wrote:On April 13 2017 02:16 Fango wrote:On April 13 2017 00:31 Vutalisk wrote:On April 12 2017 02:48 icesergio wrote:The hypocrisy of the people contributing to this thread, in primis the OP himself is absolutely mind baffling. I'm going to quote The Joker and say "Terran wins a major and nobody bats an eye, Protoss wins a major tournament and everybody loses their minds" Trying to win an arguement as a Protoss player, like MCanning said, is near impossible, trying to talk sense to you is also impossibile, because understanding that every race has their gimmicks and accepting that is just too much for your ant dimensioned brains, so here I propose another arguement: Win rates are MOSTLY balanced, and when I say MOSTLY I don't mean Protoss favoured, I mean Terran or Zerg favoured. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Feast upon your eyes! I love how you try to mask your whining with phrases like "It's boring to watch" or "It is a bad design gameplay wise" It's a good thing we have all you Real Time Strategy gurus, seriously, I wouldn't know what to do without you! /s Every race has a frustrating gimmicky unit that serves no purpose other than to keep win rates in the 50-50 zone, Terran has Stimmed Marauders that FYI deal more DPS than Immortals when stimmed vs Armored targets (which makes complete sense doesn't it?) Widow mine drops are probably the most frustrating thing to deal with as Protoss, the fact that Immortals completely melt against the new siege tank... Ravagers that can kite almost every Protoss ground unit even off creep and have no PROPER counter due to the lack of either a light or armored tag. (Archons, thanks to the +bio damage) are the ONLY unit that Protoss has that deals additional damage directly, but thanks to their 3 range they can be kited by Ravagers all day. Forget catching Ravagers without Disruptors and/or Chargelots. So just SUCK it up, accept that Protoss is part of the game and as such can also WIN tournaments and, just like any of you would say to one of us the moment we even tried to propose a nerf to one of your much loved units "Git Gud" Dude, I applaud you so much right now. ByuN 3-rax-reaper his way to victories (BlizzCon and GSL) and no one said a damn thing. Protoss won GSL and Super Tournament and giant explosion of "Adept is OP" following. People think adepts and phoenixes are like piece of cake. Spamming them and win. Yah right. If Terran turtle up and bunkers, WMs and tanks, they should be fine. By the time, they get enough Marauders and WMs, they will bully the Protoss big time. No one seems to whine about that. Many Terrans like to push prematurely vs Adepts/Phoenixes (like 2 Medivacs + 16 marines with no stim), lose and then whine adepts are OP. ByuN 3-raxed in like 3 maps in all of blizzcon and barely ever in GSL. Most his games were won through marine pushes and harass. And btw EVERYONE agreed 3rax was broken at the time. I can't remember people saying it was balanced (they probably did idk, some people defend anything) although byuN did have the best control, there's no way to stop it being efficient TY did a tank push twice in IEM, while winning many long macro games. And everyone still agreed it's OP vs robo herO massed 2 units every game of the tournament near enough and none of the terrans could do anything. Until terran players can actually win against it, there's no way to call it balanced. Remember when people said PvT was balanced in 2014? when every game was either blink allin or 3 base deathball being unstoppable? Yeah, that herO didn't mass Adepts/Phoenixes every game. He did in fact lose one game (Game 4) which was really the case of "massing". Also, Terran is not always losing to mass adepts/phoenixes. herO wins some and lose some. Also, what else can Protoss do to win vs T? Robo play and then as you said it, they do Tanks push and you die. Adepts/Phoenixes play is at least viable. Until you somehow allow Protoss to win vs T in another way then by all mean, nerfing A/P. It's amazingly funny how everyone is like "you can only phoenix/adept else you die to tanks!!" but it's really not that easy to die to tanks when you do something else. Anyways the game was better before the 3.8 tankivac nerf and all other units changes :/, they should have just changed the ultras and the things that were wrong in ZvP and call it a day. Tankivac singlehandedly made me leave the game. It was so so so fucking stupid. I dunno it is far less stupid than raven harass, doom drops being even stronger in TvT because you can't use tankivacs with more tanks to deal with it, etc... Against roach/ravager it added micro possibilities etc... Was cooler than what we have now. TY vs ByuN or ByuN vs Ryung were superb TvT back then!
Doom drops are becoming less and less of an issue in TvT as Terrans get better at preventing/identifying them.
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So far reading through the comments. I really like the idea of making warpgate tech a late game upgrade, either at robotics facility/twilight council, or at robotics bay/templar archives, or available to be built at both techways as to not force a protoss towards a specific tech path.
Phasing mode for a warp prism could also be made into an upgrade. For example a robotics bay upgrade. The pickup area of the warp prism is also a bit silly...
To match this change, ignite afterburners should be made into an upgrade instead of coming standard with the medivac, either a starport or fusion core upgrade.
Zerg is quite balanced right now in terms of harrassment options
With these changes, I reckon harassment options will be slowed down in early game by a little bit. These are just my thoughts.
After these changes are made, then you can balance the Adept accordingly. Or, some of the other suggested can be implemented, such as shades having hp/ shades not having the ability to go over units, etc.
BUT I JUST WANT TO SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE COOL :D
Merging the zealot and the adept into a unit, to shoot at long range and draw their blades at melee range ;D
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On April 13 2017 06:38 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 13 2017 03:09 Vutalisk wrote:On April 13 2017 02:16 Fango wrote:On April 13 2017 00:31 Vutalisk wrote:On April 12 2017 02:48 icesergio wrote:The hypocrisy of the people contributing to this thread, in primis the OP himself is absolutely mind baffling. I'm going to quote The Joker and say "Terran wins a major and nobody bats an eye, Protoss wins a major tournament and everybody loses their minds" Trying to win an arguement as a Protoss player, like MCanning said, is near impossible, trying to talk sense to you is also impossibile, because understanding that every race has their gimmicks and accepting that is just too much for your ant dimensioned brains, so here I propose another arguement: Win rates are MOSTLY balanced, and when I say MOSTLY I don't mean Protoss favoured, I mean Terran or Zerg favoured. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Feast upon your eyes! I love how you try to mask your whining with phrases like "It's boring to watch" or "It is a bad design gameplay wise" It's a good thing we have all you Real Time Strategy gurus, seriously, I wouldn't know what to do without you! /s Every race has a frustrating gimmicky unit that serves no purpose other than to keep win rates in the 50-50 zone, Terran has Stimmed Marauders that FYI deal more DPS than Immortals when stimmed vs Armored targets (which makes complete sense doesn't it?) Widow mine drops are probably the most frustrating thing to deal with as Protoss, the fact that Immortals completely melt against the new siege tank... Ravagers that can kite almost every Protoss ground unit even off creep and have no PROPER counter due to the lack of either a light or armored tag. (Archons, thanks to the +bio damage) are the ONLY unit that Protoss has that deals additional damage directly, but thanks to their 3 range they can be kited by Ravagers all day. Forget catching Ravagers without Disruptors and/or Chargelots. So just SUCK it up, accept that Protoss is part of the game and as such can also WIN tournaments and, just like any of you would say to one of us the moment we even tried to propose a nerf to one of your much loved units "Git Gud" Dude, I applaud you so much right now. ByuN 3-rax-reaper his way to victories (BlizzCon and GSL) and no one said a damn thing. Protoss won GSL and Super Tournament and giant explosion of "Adept is OP" following. People think adepts and phoenixes are like piece of cake. Spamming them and win. Yah right. If Terran turtle up and bunkers, WMs and tanks, they should be fine. By the time, they get enough Marauders and WMs, they will bully the Protoss big time. No one seems to whine about that. Many Terrans like to push prematurely vs Adepts/Phoenixes (like 2 Medivacs + 16 marines with no stim), lose and then whine adepts are OP. ByuN 3-raxed in like 3 maps in all of blizzcon and barely ever in GSL. Most his games were won through marine pushes and harass. And btw EVERYONE agreed 3rax was broken at the time. I can't remember people saying it was balanced (they probably did idk, some people defend anything) although byuN did have the best control, there's no way to stop it being efficient TY did a tank push twice in IEM, while winning many long macro games. And everyone still agreed it's OP vs robo herO massed 2 units every game of the tournament near enough and none of the terrans could do anything. Until terran players can actually win against it, there's no way to call it balanced. Remember when people said PvT was balanced in 2014? when every game was either blink allin or 3 base deathball being unstoppable? Yeah, that herO didn't mass Adepts/Phoenixes every game. He did in fact lose one game (Game 4) which was really the case of "massing". Also, Terran is not always losing to mass adepts/phoenixes. herO wins some and lose some. Also, what else can Protoss do to win vs T? Robo play and then as you said it, they do Tanks push and you die. Adepts/Phoenixes play is at least viable. Until you somehow allow Protoss to win vs T in another way then by all mean, nerfing A/P. It's amazingly funny how everyone is like "you can only phoenix/adept else you die to tanks!!" but it's really not that easy to die to tanks when you do something else. Anyways the game was better before the 3.8 tankivac nerf and all other units changes :/, they should have just changed the ultras and the things that were wrong in ZvP and call it a day. Tankivac singlehandedly made me leave the game. It was so so so fucking stupid.
Oh you have no idea. As a Zerg, you had to get a freaking drop overlord with speed and load a queen or two and chasing the Tankivac around. That scene alone should be a meme and that is how ridiculous it is.
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France12911 Posts
On April 13 2017 08:10 LaughNgamez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 07:09 Poopi wrote:On April 13 2017 06:38 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 13 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 13 2017 03:09 Vutalisk wrote:On April 13 2017 02:16 Fango wrote:On April 13 2017 00:31 Vutalisk wrote:On April 12 2017 02:48 icesergio wrote:The hypocrisy of the people contributing to this thread, in primis the OP himself is absolutely mind baffling. I'm going to quote The Joker and say "Terran wins a major and nobody bats an eye, Protoss wins a major tournament and everybody loses their minds" Trying to win an arguement as a Protoss player, like MCanning said, is near impossible, trying to talk sense to you is also impossibile, because understanding that every race has their gimmicks and accepting that is just too much for your ant dimensioned brains, so here I propose another arguement: Win rates are MOSTLY balanced, and when I say MOSTLY I don't mean Protoss favoured, I mean Terran or Zerg favoured. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Feast upon your eyes! I love how you try to mask your whining with phrases like "It's boring to watch" or "It is a bad design gameplay wise" It's a good thing we have all you Real Time Strategy gurus, seriously, I wouldn't know what to do without you! /s Every race has a frustrating gimmicky unit that serves no purpose other than to keep win rates in the 50-50 zone, Terran has Stimmed Marauders that FYI deal more DPS than Immortals when stimmed vs Armored targets (which makes complete sense doesn't it?) Widow mine drops are probably the most frustrating thing to deal with as Protoss, the fact that Immortals completely melt against the new siege tank... Ravagers that can kite almost every Protoss ground unit even off creep and have no PROPER counter due to the lack of either a light or armored tag. (Archons, thanks to the +bio damage) are the ONLY unit that Protoss has that deals additional damage directly, but thanks to their 3 range they can be kited by Ravagers all day. Forget catching Ravagers without Disruptors and/or Chargelots. So just SUCK it up, accept that Protoss is part of the game and as such can also WIN tournaments and, just like any of you would say to one of us the moment we even tried to propose a nerf to one of your much loved units "Git Gud" Dude, I applaud you so much right now. ByuN 3-rax-reaper his way to victories (BlizzCon and GSL) and no one said a damn thing. Protoss won GSL and Super Tournament and giant explosion of "Adept is OP" following. People think adepts and phoenixes are like piece of cake. Spamming them and win. Yah right. If Terran turtle up and bunkers, WMs and tanks, they should be fine. By the time, they get enough Marauders and WMs, they will bully the Protoss big time. No one seems to whine about that. Many Terrans like to push prematurely vs Adepts/Phoenixes (like 2 Medivacs + 16 marines with no stim), lose and then whine adepts are OP. ByuN 3-raxed in like 3 maps in all of blizzcon and barely ever in GSL. Most his games were won through marine pushes and harass. And btw EVERYONE agreed 3rax was broken at the time. I can't remember people saying it was balanced (they probably did idk, some people defend anything) although byuN did have the best control, there's no way to stop it being efficient TY did a tank push twice in IEM, while winning many long macro games. And everyone still agreed it's OP vs robo herO massed 2 units every game of the tournament near enough and none of the terrans could do anything. Until terran players can actually win against it, there's no way to call it balanced. Remember when people said PvT was balanced in 2014? when every game was either blink allin or 3 base deathball being unstoppable? Yeah, that herO didn't mass Adepts/Phoenixes every game. He did in fact lose one game (Game 4) which was really the case of "massing". Also, Terran is not always losing to mass adepts/phoenixes. herO wins some and lose some. Also, what else can Protoss do to win vs T? Robo play and then as you said it, they do Tanks push and you die. Adepts/Phoenixes play is at least viable. Until you somehow allow Protoss to win vs T in another way then by all mean, nerfing A/P. It's amazingly funny how everyone is like "you can only phoenix/adept else you die to tanks!!" but it's really not that easy to die to tanks when you do something else. Anyways the game was better before the 3.8 tankivac nerf and all other units changes :/, they should have just changed the ultras and the things that were wrong in ZvP and call it a day. Tankivac singlehandedly made me leave the game. It was so so so fucking stupid. I dunno it is far less stupid than raven harass, doom drops being even stronger in TvT because you can't use tankivacs with more tanks to deal with it, etc... Against roach/ravager it added micro possibilities etc... Was cooler than what we have now. TY vs ByuN or ByuN vs Ryung were superb TvT back then! Doom drops are becoming less and less of an issue in TvT as Terrans get better at preventing/identifying them.
Maybe but we could have said the same thing about tankivac...
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On April 13 2017 08:33 AshC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2017 06:38 SC2Toastie wrote:On April 13 2017 05:17 Poopi wrote:On April 13 2017 03:09 Vutalisk wrote:On April 13 2017 02:16 Fango wrote:On April 13 2017 00:31 Vutalisk wrote:On April 12 2017 02:48 icesergio wrote:The hypocrisy of the people contributing to this thread, in primis the OP himself is absolutely mind baffling. I'm going to quote The Joker and say "Terran wins a major and nobody bats an eye, Protoss wins a major tournament and everybody loses their minds" Trying to win an arguement as a Protoss player, like MCanning said, is near impossible, trying to talk sense to you is also impossibile, because understanding that every race has their gimmicks and accepting that is just too much for your ant dimensioned brains, so here I propose another arguement: Win rates are MOSTLY balanced, and when I say MOSTLY I don't mean Protoss favoured, I mean Terran or Zerg favoured. http://www.rankedftw.com/stats/races/1v1/#v=2&r=-2&l=-2Feast upon your eyes! I love how you try to mask your whining with phrases like "It's boring to watch" or "It is a bad design gameplay wise" It's a good thing we have all you Real Time Strategy gurus, seriously, I wouldn't know what to do without you! /s Every race has a frustrating gimmicky unit that serves no purpose other than to keep win rates in the 50-50 zone, Terran has Stimmed Marauders that FYI deal more DPS than Immortals when stimmed vs Armored targets (which makes complete sense doesn't it?) Widow mine drops are probably the most frustrating thing to deal with as Protoss, the fact that Immortals completely melt against the new siege tank... Ravagers that can kite almost every Protoss ground unit even off creep and have no PROPER counter due to the lack of either a light or armored tag. (Archons, thanks to the +bio damage) are the ONLY unit that Protoss has that deals additional damage directly, but thanks to their 3 range they can be kited by Ravagers all day. Forget catching Ravagers without Disruptors and/or Chargelots. So just SUCK it up, accept that Protoss is part of the game and as such can also WIN tournaments and, just like any of you would say to one of us the moment we even tried to propose a nerf to one of your much loved units "Git Gud" Dude, I applaud you so much right now. ByuN 3-rax-reaper his way to victories (BlizzCon and GSL) and no one said a damn thing. Protoss won GSL and Super Tournament and giant explosion of "Adept is OP" following. People think adepts and phoenixes are like piece of cake. Spamming them and win. Yah right. If Terran turtle up and bunkers, WMs and tanks, they should be fine. By the time, they get enough Marauders and WMs, they will bully the Protoss big time. No one seems to whine about that. Many Terrans like to push prematurely vs Adepts/Phoenixes (like 2 Medivacs + 16 marines with no stim), lose and then whine adepts are OP. ByuN 3-raxed in like 3 maps in all of blizzcon and barely ever in GSL. Most his games were won through marine pushes and harass. And btw EVERYONE agreed 3rax was broken at the time. I can't remember people saying it was balanced (they probably did idk, some people defend anything) although byuN did have the best control, there's no way to stop it being efficient TY did a tank push twice in IEM, while winning many long macro games. And everyone still agreed it's OP vs robo herO massed 2 units every game of the tournament near enough and none of the terrans could do anything. Until terran players can actually win against it, there's no way to call it balanced. Remember when people said PvT was balanced in 2014? when every game was either blink allin or 3 base deathball being unstoppable? Yeah, that herO didn't mass Adepts/Phoenixes every game. He did in fact lose one game (Game 4) which was really the case of "massing". Also, Terran is not always losing to mass adepts/phoenixes. herO wins some and lose some. Also, what else can Protoss do to win vs T? Robo play and then as you said it, they do Tanks push and you die. Adepts/Phoenixes play is at least viable. Until you somehow allow Protoss to win vs T in another way then by all mean, nerfing A/P. It's amazingly funny how everyone is like "you can only phoenix/adept else you die to tanks!!" but it's really not that easy to die to tanks when you do something else. Anyways the game was better before the 3.8 tankivac nerf and all other units changes :/, they should have just changed the ultras and the things that were wrong in ZvP and call it a day. Tankivac singlehandedly made me leave the game. It was so so so fucking stupid. Oh you have no idea. As a Zerg, you had to get a freaking drop overlord with speed and load a queen or two and chasing the Tankivac around. That scene alone should be a meme and that is how ridiculous it is.
You didn't have to do that. It was one solution, but you'll damage the medivac enough to push it away eventually with just your normal amount of queens without drops or anything.
Lets not blow this out of proportion - I didn't like tankivacs either, but you didn't have to chase it around with queens in an overlord lol.
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Terran players themselves dont want a tankivac lol...
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Canada11355 Posts
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community update discussed nerfing shade cooldown by 3s, or a 10hp nerf,
then changing some things with the other core unit(s) like the zealot to make them more appealing to play with.
over in the thread they're talking about doing both.
personally i wouldn't mind if adept shades could not be selected or redirected. it would be one move and you would have to plan ahead. on top of this I would like it if shade has a specific cast range, making the unit overall much more hectic and unforgiving to use.
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A cooldown nerf won't change why this unit is overperforming right now. A cooldown nerf will only nerf the harassment potential >>sometimes<<. It would be a very situational.
If we keep shades in the game the way they are, then i'd suggest to reduce adepts HP or DPS.
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I will just change the shade ability so they can being block by units, it will be more fair and more micro intensive in both sides imho
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On April 10 2017 05:11 Eternal Dalek wrote:
We can't nerf the adept because that'd mean that P loses early game. We could buff the other gateway units but then warp gate rushes would be too OP. I think the problem lies in the warp gate and the shade abilities, both of which break fundamental RTS gameplay rules.
So here's my suggestion:
1. Make warp gate a late game tech.
2. Make shade a late game tech or remove it entirely.
3. Buff core gateway units.
Another thing I'd like to see, if warp gate were moved to late game is to add endgame reinforcement features to T and Z:
1. Protoss - Warp Gate. Already exists ingame.
2. Terran - Drop Pods. Newly trained units can be rallied to a command center/planetary fortress, bypassing terrain.
3. Zerg - Nydus Network. Already exists ingame, but is underused. Maybe turn existing hatcheries into exits?
Protoss would still have the best endgame reinforcements since they can freely warp in entire armies anywhere. Terran would not have to deal with long walk times to the front lines, while Zerg's nydus network sees more use.
Basically, I want the game to play out like this:
Tier 1: Simple units and abilities: armies are F2+A capable, but micro will give you small gains here and there.
Tier 2: More advanced units and abilities come into play: stim packs, blink, cloaking, flying combat units. Standard RTS abilities.
Tier 3: Gamebreakers designed for breaking sieges: Units and abilities that break RTS rules like the shade ability, mass recall, battlecruiser teleport, warp gate, mutalisk fast healing, liberator siege mode, etc.
We could even have a tier 4 which gives you access to the stuff that has been removed from the game for being too OP: Khaydarin amulet, tankivacs, release interceptors ability, void ray speed upgrade, etc.
I don't like this turtle fest style you like. I prefer a game where you have many options, players with better control can do more with it, and its not about breaking sieges its more about deciding on what to make and where to send and position it. I think the game is actually in a pretty great state all 3 races feel like they have a chance and good balance. And the game remains so that all 3 of these happen where a player with more skill is more likely to win. I feel that the adepts causes this more than the mass aoe alternatives.
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Simple change: get rid of the player's ability to cancel shade.
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Right now the adept is the protoss marine and the protoss reaper. For it to find a comfortable place in the game it needs to only fill one of those roles, or at least only one at a time.
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United States12240 Posts
On April 10 2017 05:21 JackONeill wrote:
The problem with the adept is the shade, only the shade, and for 2 very particular reason :
- harass : shading left and right between mineral lines : minimal amount of skill required, but terran pros can't even defend it efficiently
- snowball : the reason why adepts snowball so hard is because no matter how many adept you have or the nature of your opponent's army, with the shade ALL your adepts will be able to fight. If you compare 30 adepts and 30 roaches, roaches can't dive into an ennemy army (for all the roaches to shoot without needing a 360° concave) without suffering losse. On the other hand, shades assure that each and every adept you have will be able to shoot all the time, not matter where the fight is located.
I don't mind protoss needing "assault/shock" troops since with the siege tank and the ravager buffs, stalkers not fit a smaller role in the game (which is good, they were omnipresent in HOTS). But some design changes to the adept shade NEED to happen for this unit to be less abusive.
The first element I think is part of the design (for better or for worse) as these are supposed to be nimble assassin style units, kind of like the Reaper.
The second element is something I hadn't really thought too much about, but it's extremely important. It's perhaps the most critical part of why Adepts are the backbone of every Protoss army. Nice job articulating it.
In Beta, Adepts could not cancel their shade ability, and they were very weak. There was a definite "commitment cost" to using it. If you used your shade then saw a horde of units waiting for you, you often couldn't pull back in time and would end up feeding away your Adepts. So we don't want that, because these are supposed to be useful for scouting. But now that the shade is cancelable at any time, the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
My recommendation would be for the shade cancel window to be 3 seconds. If you don't cancel in 3 seconds, your opponent will know that you are committed to teleporting your Adepts. This still gives you some wiggle room to scout for free, but not as far. And, if you intended to cancel but missed the window, you can still manually move your shades back without losing ground (say, 3 seconds to run them forward and 3 seconds to run back to your origin).
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I just don't like how Adepts are tanky and literally can't take any damage during shades, meaning they can literally surround armies especially early-mid game without any punishment or defense. Basically any other unit in the game is never "invincible": cloaked banshees can be detected, DTs as well, etc. With adepts, there's nothing to do until they are on top of your army or in three mineral lines.
I understand P needs harassment options, but I like some of the suggestions reducing HP or shade time, etc.
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I do not like to use the adept, I'd rather would like the zealot as the core unit for P. However, I do not know how to accomplish this. My best guess would be to remove the +light from adept and add it to zealot? But then the zealot would be too strong with charge upgrade (?). Sadly I do not have the expertise to make the zealot more and the adept less relevant because this concerns balance.
So here is my suggestion to at least make the adept more fun for all parties:
The shade should be activated by clicking on a target location and the shade cannot be controlled anymore. Cancel should still be allowed though. No timer on the shade. It finishes immediately when the location is reached. Of course there must be a maximum (casting (?)) distance for the ability.
Why do I think this is a good solution:
This significantly reduces the complexity needed for the execution of the ability, but retains a high skill ceiling.
+ Show Spoiler +Example: Chess is a successful game because it is easy to play, but it is difficult to master.
Though you could argue the castling in chess is quite weird, but I guess it was introduced because it provided significant benefit to the game.
The ability is easy to use, because you only have to click a target location and then you can forget about it.
+ Show Spoiler +The current implementation is not intuitive: As a beginner it is not clear how the shade works. Is the adept itself selected after the ability or the shade selected as default? How do hotgroups with shades works? Do I cancel the shading with the shade or the real unit? Also that the shade looks different and moves different from normal units does not help. - At least for me it is really confusing. (Of course these questions are easy to answer if you try them out, but keep in mind you have to muscle-memorize those)
The skill ceiling is high because it introduces a real strategy/mind game component for both players.
+ Show Spoiler +You have to think beforehand where the units of your opponents will probably be. Your opponent has to find out where your units are headed. The sooner the better. It might be even possible for the defender to set traps beforehand since the adept user has to set the location beforehand. I believe this interaction makes positional play more interesting for both sides. Also I love watching/playing mind games. Well, is there someone who doesn't?
Shading on tanks is more "interactive". You can teleport faster because the ability finishes as soon as the units reach their positions. But during the transfer the terran might guess your destination and outplay you.
Also you could "blink micro" your adepts in combat which should compensate the slight nerf overall. (Probably a nerf overall? I am not sure.).
+ Show Spoiler +FYI I love blink stalkers. I love them. I really do.
A fudge factor for balancing would be the ability cool down.
+ Show Spoiler +Alternatively:
Queue up movement with adept and activate ability. The shade then completes the previously queued up movements (of course within the maximum shade distance). Again: The move commands cannot be changed after the ability is activated.
This alternative allows for more complex movements.
I also like the suggestion that units should block adept shade, but then I think adepts shading on top of terran bio might be necessary (for balance or because its an interesting interaction).
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+ Show Spoiler +INnoVation vs. sOs on Abyssal Reef basically perfectly showed why i don't enjoy LotV since launch and why i made this thread. Over 50 worker kills on 2base. That's just not the star craft anymore that i used to love.
*Edit: It's really not about balance. Protoss is clearly beatable. It's not about stats, it's about how units interact with each other. How matchups play out. My point is that adepts (and a lot more lotv units/mechanics) simply don't create good RTS gameplay.
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