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On November 06 2016 12:28 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 12:19 Liquid`Snute wrote:On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote:
To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5.
Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game. yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'. i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ... i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
When i saw the granade first time in beta it looked really stupid and meaningless, my opinion still didn't change. Even though someone could feel like its a *cool consept" for the first time, after seeing mass reaper every single game on frozen temple-Galactic Process its not cool anymore to any player/spectator. Its keep ruining TvT games as well.
No nerf needed, just a complete removal because its existence has no purpose at the first place.
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It's sort of problematic, but I do not think it's game-breaking. Reapers are sort of mandatory though, due to their strength in scouting and against slowlings.
However, I thought it was great. It was just like watching Mvp do his risky plays with proxies and stuff. The players make the builds and units look imba just because they handle it so well. Byun has probably the best reaper control in the world, and he knows how to pull it out.
However, I'd be okay with reapers getting reworked SO LONG AS... Ultras stop being such a dumb end-game unit. That is the most anti-fun unit ever.
I am random player, but I really don't think ultra is op in TvZ, as long as terran makes ghosts and liberators and keep denying zerg eco. (as long as terran is good enough to control his units) and meanwhile, I see 3 rax reaper build is problem, it makes zerg can't do anything effective against it. If zerg starts with really poor eco against terran, then it is extremely hard to come back there if you are vs same lvl opponent.
I am now reading all comments in Korean community, zerg high level amateurs and pros saying 3 rax reaper build is a cancer, and zerg can't do anything against it, and even some terran pros said they acknowledge 3 rax reaper build is insanely good against zerg, and op build. Forcing zerg to produce ravagers and start economically so poor, but still zerg can't do anything against terran it's just stupid.
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Does anyone have an image of Byun kissing the trophy?
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On November 06 2016 12:28 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 12:19 Liquid`Snute wrote:On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote:
To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5.
Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game. yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'. i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ... i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
Very few players have the kind of control Byun has.
At 2:30 he manages to get 4 shots for free. Against a unit that "counters" it. One of the grave sins over the years has been sacrificing on the altar of balance. Some pro made something OP so we need to address that. Pros don't have a problem dealing with bunker rushes so we are gonna just sit on it for months while everyone tries out this new LoL / DotA thing.
Byun is very very good. He has changed the meta for the entire game before.
I disagree with Snute and Aegwynns about what really stymies ZvT. It isn't reapers, or the early game. The mid game in ZvT is absolute shit and I'd rather (and often do) play different games competitively than deal with yet-another-16 marine drop. It's stale, it wasn't fun to play against the first time, and it exposes how uninteresting ZvT is in the mid game. Zergs that try to be aggressive are all in. Similarly, if T gets zero damage done through economic loss or forcing units to be made, they are sufficiently behind that it's no longer their game to win and they have to hope their opponent makes a big mistake.
It's not pretty. It's really not fun. And it's hard to convince people that are burnt out by it to give it another chance because it's exactly what they will see 8 games out of 10. It does have the same dynamic however. Terran has micro intensive units that reward skillful play. That's excellent game design. I just wish they'd share that with the other races.
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This is the greatest period erver.
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Was kind of a "meh" finale imo, mostly Dark trying not to fall apart against reaper penetration early game.
(felt like watching idra vs MorroW IEM finale 2010 again xd)
Game 5 tho...I wasn´t that much on the edge of my seat since watching "The shallows" :D
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Insane Finals...I was sorta surprised Dark did not try to take a more agressive stance against the Terran God though, for the most part he backed his macro and defense to win the day...Game 5 he proved his strategy had some merit, but to consistently play like Dark did in Game 5 is nigh impossible. CONgratz to both, Byun Super well played Sir!!! What a Gweomul!!!
It is actually ByuN who used aggressive build to beat Dark... Dark won 2 games by straight macro game, while ByuN took 3 games by op 3 rax reaper build... I love both ByuN and Dark so much equally and they are fantastic players, but can't deny when ByuN used usual 2 medivac timing build in game 5, he couldn't do anything, ByuN still showed amazing micro that most of other terrans can't do, but Dark won at the end... you can say ByuN took at least 3 games with aggressive OP builds.
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On November 06 2016 12:56 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 12:28 BigFan wrote:On November 06 2016 12:19 Liquid`Snute wrote:On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote:
To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5.
Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game. yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'. i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ... i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix? Very few players have the kind of control Byun has. https://clips.twitch.tv/starcraft/KindDragonflySSSsssAt 2:30 he manages to get 4 shots for free. Against a unit that "counters" it. One of the grave sins over the years has been sacrificing on the altar of balance. Some pro made something OP so we need to address that. Pros don't have a problem dealing with bunker rushes so we are gonna just sit on it for months while everyone tries out this new LoL / DotA thing. Byun is very very good. He has changed the meta for the entire game before. I disagree with Snute and Aegwynns about what really stymies ZvT. It isn't reapers, or the early game. The mid game in ZvT is absolute shit and I'd rather (and often do) play different games competitively than deal with yet-another-16 marine drop. It's stale, it wasn't fun to play against the first time, and it exposes how uninteresting ZvT is in the mid game. Zergs that try to be aggressive are all in. Similarly, if T gets zero damage done through economic loss or forcing units to be made, they are sufficiently behind that it's no longer their game to win and they have to hope their opponent makes a big mistake. It's not pretty. It's really not fun. And it's hard to convince people that are burnt out by it to give it another chance because it's exactly what they will see 8 games out of 10. It does have the same dynamic however. Terran has micro intensive units that reward skillful play. That's excellent game design. I just wish they'd share that with the other races.
You don't have to have byun micro to be succesful with the reapers.
Lots of foreign terrans had ez wins on frozen temple and galactic this year.
I watched tons of 3rax on frozen and %90 of the games goes the same way, dealing damage with the reapers isn't the problem, just making the 3 rax opening puts you automatically ahead even if you're a mediocre terran. Even Uthermal stated that how broken it is months ago.
Mid game is terran favored but i don't know how you pulled this discussion to there. There were 6 games in this series, 2 of them finished in late game other 4 finished in early game so practically we didn't even see a competitive mid-game.
And i believe very few people enjoys reapers rather than mid game fights.
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Norway839 Posts
TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
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As someone who has played way way too many thousand and thousand of games (mostly WoL and HotS) the changes in LotV I think are worst are new chrono boost and new reapers :D
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On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote:
TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
I think you can get away with the grenade if you reduce the gas cost of reapers from 50 to 25, in HotS it made sense, since you could get reapers before any counter unit, but in LotV by the time they get to the enemy base they have like 5 secods before a adept/hellion/queen its out and then they become useless.
50/50 for 1 supply is actually super expensive, the only units that are so expensive per supply are casters (ravens/HT/sentries/vipers/etc)
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If game 5 was the best game of the year then I didn't miss anything this year. Gratz Byun
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On November 06 2016 13:26 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 12:56 Probe1 wrote:On November 06 2016 12:28 BigFan wrote:On November 06 2016 12:19 Liquid`Snute wrote:On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote:
To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5.
Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game. yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'. i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ... i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix? Very few players have the kind of control Byun has. https://clips.twitch.tv/starcraft/KindDragonflySSSsssAt 2:30 he manages to get 4 shots for free. Against a unit that "counters" it. One of the grave sins over the years has been sacrificing on the altar of balance. Some pro made something OP so we need to address that. Pros don't have a problem dealing with bunker rushes so we are gonna just sit on it for months while everyone tries out this new LoL / DotA thing. Byun is very very good. He has changed the meta for the entire game before. I disagree with Snute and Aegwynns about what really stymies ZvT. It isn't reapers, or the early game. The mid game in ZvT is absolute shit and I'd rather (and often do) play different games competitively than deal with yet-another-16 marine drop. It's stale, it wasn't fun to play against the first time, and it exposes how uninteresting ZvT is in the mid game. Zergs that try to be aggressive are all in. Similarly, if T gets zero damage done through economic loss or forcing units to be made, they are sufficiently behind that it's no longer their game to win and they have to hope their opponent makes a big mistake. It's not pretty. It's really not fun. And it's hard to convince people that are burnt out by it to give it another chance because it's exactly what they will see 8 games out of 10. It does have the same dynamic however. Terran has micro intensive units that reward skillful play. That's excellent game design. I just wish they'd share that with the other races. You don't have to have byun micro to be succesful with the reapers. Lots of foreign terrans had ez wins on frozen temple and galactic this year. I watched tons of 3rax on frozen and %90 of the games goes the same way, dealing damage with the reapers isn't the problem, just making the 3 rax opening puts you automatically ahead even if you're a mediocre terran. Even Uthermal stated that how broken it is months ago. Mid game is terran favored but i don't know how you pulled this discussion to there. There were 6 games in this series, 2 of them finished in late game other 4 finished in early game so practically we didn't even see a competitive mid-game. And i believe very few people enjoys reapers rather than mid game fights.
At a point Zergs adjusted. For a while opening with roaches was normal. This is one of those things that works but there's clear ways to stop it and it can be stopped.
Darks great mistake wasn't mis-microing or having poor macro or some mechanical issue. He made a decision to go all in when his opponent had taken an edge against him in army. Against a lesser Terran it probably would have worked. But against one with the best control, he needed to accept that. Byun accepted Dark had a lead many times over the series and didn't force the issue. He played for the long game. And in that long game I feel Dark was best and in the LR thread and now I feel like he made a serious miscalculation by going for an all in attack.
And that leaves me where I was a few hours ago when I wrote my last post. The problem isn't that the reaper is this gosu 2skill OP unit. It's that Zerg really doesn't have any great mid game units that don't put them in a do or die situation against Terran, and the match up is pretty fuckin stale to begin with.
In this regard I have hope in the balance patch. Swarm hosts might finally work. Hydras might not be a throw against bio. Mutalisks won't get shit on by the presence of a handful of liberators. Lots of things will change and I'm not in any rush to nerf the reaper rush before we've seen what we can do against the new changes.
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On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote:
TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
While i thought about that solution before i don't see why we want the ability to be in the game to begin with. Reapers still aren't used in the mid to lategame because of it, all it did was buffing them in the early game. Nobody ever asked for that and it wasn't needed.
The whole idea of reapers being useful in the mid to lategame doesn't work because of medivacs. Every bio terran wants to have medivas which makes mobility a non factor. Ofc reapers aren't used to harass when medivacs with bio are way better at doing the same.
Remove that stupid grenade completely and if people cry about reapers being useless later on in the game so be it. (grenades don't change that)
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Dark fan here as well. While seeing all the talk of the reapers consoles my heart, let's not take away from ByuN's moment. He played godly well
I do have one qualm about the OP though. I don't think Dark misread G6, I think that rax timing was pretty clearly a 3rax reaper and not a CC first multiple rax. In any case, as soon as that first reaper shows up, it's obviously not CC first and is a 3rax, don't think it was a misread.
Higher level zergs can comment on this, but maybe Dark didn't go for roaches since w/ a hatch gas pool, getting ravagers out will take too long on close spawns vs. the 3rax?
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And to weigh in on the reaper discussion, I recall that the grenade was to give reapers utility in the mid-late game by disrupting concaves, not meant as an early game harassment tool
I think the best solution is to remove the charge. I'm not convinced that making reapers an available option for midgame play is such a good idea. If we must keep the charge in, for this purpose, we have to balance the game starting from 3rax, since that's the only build that goes into the midgame w/ a reasonable mass of reapers.
To this end, two solutions could be proposed, in addition to what we've proposed before. 1) grenades don't do damage. This significantly reduces early game reaper poke, though it's probably still a bit too strong at delaying.
Or 2) turn it into a research that requires something later game, e.g. armory. A buff would then be required, since it would be so late. Maybe instant bomb?
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I feel sorry for Dark  , but there is still hope for him to win a big tournament again  . Next year we will still have 2 GSL/2SSL, 2 Kespa cup, 2 Cross final, at least in Korea. If Dark still practices and plays on this level, he will definitely win a lot more tournaments. Because Dark and Byun are now 2 of very few remaining pros and I believe Dark's mid game/macro game is perfect, he just need to adjust his early game to not die to builds like 3 rax reaper.
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On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote:
TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
I've been saying this one for awhile. Not even with just the reaper but maybe experimenting with giving certain units abilities with a finite number of uses as another angle of balance, much like how the vulture functioned in BW with the spider mines.
I think the oracle could be a good candidate for this as well with stasis ward.
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EPT
