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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 08 2016 03:43 maartendq wrote: Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons. We could but it´s not like mutas are a problem. | ||
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Alexcalibur1996
United States39 Posts
On November 07 2016 18:53 TheHumanLife wrote: Opportunity to go for a macro game you said? When zerg was forced to mine 2 gases instead of mining minerals and less workers than terran with MULES because of stopping reaper with grenades harass... You know what? if zerg goes macro game there, same level player with terran will crush you in early-mid game easily, the reason why 3 rax reaper build with grenades is OP is not only about reapers, in high level, you can't stop reapers from killing drones or units if you try to defend with pure roaches and spine, you have to make 2 gases and ravagers and start with lower workers than terran who already also have MULES, and also get delayed 3rd, unless you are much better player than terran, you will get crushed easily if you go macro game from there against terran, and this is why 3 rax reaper is OP in highest level. Hmm...so you mean there's nothing Dark could have done and he's already dead the moment ByuN went for 3rax reaper? If so, then Dark probably didn't have any chance in the first place and people still bet on him to win. What a time to be alive. | ||
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Itachithegoat
United States4 Posts
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Poopi
France12743 Posts
On November 08 2016 04:18 RaFox17 wrote: We could but it´s not like mutas are a problem. Reapers ain't a problem either. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
I´m sure you have read all the previous comments from other people and Snute for example. Even many T players agree that it is problematic and is ruining at least TvT. I get that you are angry about op ultras and they can be changed but how is a unit that comes out before speed or roaches, has healing, grenades, cliff jumping and superb mobility, can kill larvae (imagine zerg with 4 contaminates at 2min) and can prevent Z taking a third in a meta where Z mid game is decidedly weaker than terrans. Imagine zerg with cliff jumping, healing, baneling shooting, speedlings in the early game. | ||
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loeblix
18 Posts
On November 06 2016 17:46 kajtarp wrote: For many many many years i cheer for zergs. But Byun is such a nice person it's really hard not to like him. I want to ask, after new patch will reaper openings that strong still? If i'm correct zerglings and other units will get a health buff? Or that doesn't matter and it will be the same? Are reapers (or Byun reapers) really broken or were there things that Dark could have done differently? The reapers will stay completely the same. Zerglings and Queens too. Only banelings get a healthbuff if you research the speed upgrade. So reaper openings will stay the same. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On November 08 2016 06:17 RaFox17 wrote: I´m sure you have read all the previous comments from other people and Snute for example. Even many T players agree that it is problematic and is ruining at least TvT. I get that you are angry about op ultras and they can be changed but how is a unit that comes out before speed or roaches, has healing, grenades, cliff jumping and superb mobility, can kill larvae (imagine zerg with 4 contaminates at 2min) and can prevent Z taking a third in a meta where Z mid game is decidedly weaker than terrans. Imagine zerg with cliff jumping, healing, baneling shooting, speedlings in the early game. Come on man. I'm okay with the idea but we avoid exaggerating and making shit up. Byuns first reaper was at best hitting at 2:30 and a larva killing amount were more like 4 minutes. You can have roaches out at 4 minutes. You can finish metabolic boost. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 08 2016 08:45 hiroshOne wrote: Yes u can. But this forced overreaction sets Zerg hardcore behind when entering the midgame and he dies from follow up attack. This was exactly what we saw in Dark vs Byun series. Dark defended this perfectly executed mass reapers build as perfect as it was possible. Byun didnt kill drones. But the while time Dark was firced to build units like speedlibgs, queens and roaches/ravagers which completely slowed down his eco, his third and his tech. And in the same time Terran got 3 orbitals and massive marine production. Thi is it. Please someone argue what Z should do differently? Posibly game-ending aggression that even when doing no worker damage gives T the lead. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 08 2016 08:11 Probe1 wrote: Come on man. I'm okay with the idea but we avoid exaggerating and making shit up. Byuns first reaper was at best hitting at 2:30 and a larva killing amount were more like 4 minutes. You can have roaches out at 4 minutes. You can finish metabolic boost. Sorry for the times being wrong. Still does not change how powerful reapers are in the early game. (see the reasons i gave) | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2. I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers. GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers. Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods. I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS. Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay..... It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his matches in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM...... Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em. Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times. Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too... I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see.... | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to? I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2. I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers. GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers. Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods. I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS. Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay..... It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his codes in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM...... Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em. Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times. Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too... I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see.... The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only. | ||
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Kaizor
Singapore908 Posts
On November 08 2016 19:23 RaFox17 wrote: The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only. You don't get what he is trying to tell you. Are reapers a problem, maybe or could it be just byun. Because like he pointed out that he can't recall any significant games where reapers were a problem throughout the year. Or like i pointed out in an earlier post using ALL the results of premier tournaments and major tournaments. If reapers were such a big problem, we probably shouldn't see any zergs in any tournaments. And based on a tvp win rate that is in terran's advantage, man terran should be winning every single tournament. But guess what. Terran has been the least represented race in all 16 premier tournaments this year except for 2. (Counting ro32 onwards and ro16 when that is not possible). And Terran has had the least tournament wins out of the 3 races. Zerg and protoss both have 6 premier wins and Terran has 4. Byun won 2 of those. So please tell me why isn't Terran winning everything and making sure no zergs get into tournaments?? Why? Everyone can abuse reapers. Why isn't the ZvT winrate something like 10% because reapers are so OP and terrans can just spam them and win? | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3301 Posts
On November 06 2016 14:59 The_Red_Viper wrote: While i thought about that solution before i don't see why we want the ability to be in the game to begin with. Reapers still aren't used in the mid to lategame because of it, all it did was buffing them in the early game. Nobody ever asked for that and it wasn't needed. The whole idea of reapers being useful in the mid to lategame doesn't work because of medivacs. Every bio terran wants to have medivas which makes mobility a non factor. Ofc reapers aren't used to harass when medivacs with bio are way better at doing the same. Remove that stupid grenade completely and if people cry about reapers being useless later on in the game so be it. (grenades don't change that) On November 07 2016 15:19 FvRGg wrote: Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now I am currently working on a Mod, though I'm slow in progress  I am thinking of upping the Reapers HP, but removing the Combat Regeneration. Then for late game add an upgrade which makes the Grenades deal massive damage to buildings (Something like 3-4 Grenades can snipe a Pylon.) The trade off here would be that you cannot as easily translate APM into more damage, but have to weigh cost of Health into the decision also. The idea would be to keep about the same strength though and hopefully promote awesome use of Grenades as opposed to awesome use of Combat Healing. I find the Grenades extremely cool and if someone uses it for a mid game battle, it would make me super happy. Also there would be less anti synergi between the Medivac and Reaper and hopefully Terran players would then smartly savour their Reapers for when Medivacs come out. The only reason this discussion is even going on though, is because ByuN is the best damn Reaper player in the game and Dark made some questionable decisions, pulling back his Lings as he was just about getting a surround. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 08 2016 20:02 Kaizor wrote: You don't get what he is trying to tell you. Are reapers a problem, maybe or could it be just byun. Because like he pointed out that he can't recall any significant games where reapers were a problem throughout the year. Or like i pointed out in an earlier post using ALL the results of premier tournaments and major tournaments. If reapers were such a big problem, we probably shouldn't see any zergs in any tournaments. And based on a tvp win rate that is in terran's advantage, man terran should be winning every single tournament. But guess what. Terran has been the least represented race in all 16 premier tournaments this year except for 2. (Counting ro32 onwards and ro16 when that is not possible). And Terran has had the least tournament wins out of the 3 races. Zerg and protoss both have 6 premier wins and Terran has 4. Byun won 2 of those. So please tell me why isn't Terran winning everything and making sure no zergs get into tournaments?? Why? Everyone can abuse reapers. Why isn't the ZvT winrate something like 10% because reapers are so OP and terrans can just spam them and win? Everything is not black and white. A unit can be too powerful without removing one race out of tournaments. Just like ultras can be too strong and terrans can still exist. The point is that they are one of the reasons for the terrible state of TvZ at the moment. Terran is heavily favored and has the mobility advantage until zerg can turtle into ultras and then has the advantage. | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
I was under the impression their biggest problem vs Terran, first were the tank-vacs, then Liberator harass. With Zergs having ravagers, ovie speed, drops, and burrow at hatch tech, plus the buffed queens, how do you justify nerfing reapers? Are you sure they just haven't played against it enough? I dunno, Ravager drops? Lol , I gotta watch that Snute series, but even still, maybe UTHERMAL shoulda been at blizconn, not Snute or Drogo.. | ||
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rotta
5560 Posts
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hiroshOne
Poland424 Posts
Dude are you serious? Do u know what time mass reapers hit and how much time u need to make burrow upgrade? Do u know how much cost in gas is Ravager? And how much developing Ravagers sets you behind in economy? There's a reason why we say "allin" when Zerg makes so early roach/ravager. In the same time, with mass reapers controlling Zerg eco, and the map, behind the wall. Terran is perfectly safe in taking second and third orbital, dropping mules and explode his eco, and turning it into mass BIO production sustained by- mules. It's not even fair. | ||
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LSN
Germany696 Posts
The issues are structural in SC2 tho. - Z relying on strong lategame instead of T - T role of harrassment in early/midgame instead of Z - T mobile units instead of Z - Development strategy of buffing counters instead of toning down too strong things leads to dead ends in design (such as the brought up mutalisk regeneration, which now cannot easily be removed as too strong counters have been implemented already) In this context talking about reaper nerf makes few sense for me. It had to be embedded in an overall overhaul. This should defenitely involve to strengthen strengthes of races. The problem is that 75% of all units of zerg are non viable during most phases of the game apart from all-in or semi all-in play since 6 years and it is stuck on ling/bane as these are the only units to come by terran bio mobility. The thing of zerg should be mobile units, easy & fast to build units, fast tech switches, weaker units, more offensive than defensive. The thing of terran should be a strong but slowly pushing style with a solid endgame, more defensive than offensive. The reality is the other way round and in this way all the good defensive tools that terran has must be used and useable offensively or are being abandoned in favour of bio. The ability of zerg to offend and spam units is utilized mostly defensively, the ability of switching tech quickly gets meaningless and obsolete under constant pressure of Terran attacks and at the risk of dying while switching tech. The whole issue of SC2 is centered around this very issue. And fixing it is as easy as developing a metagame that fits better to each of the races tools or switching the tools (which is bullshit). Exactly that is the only way to restore fun and joy of SC2 by all means. Mules e.g. fit perfectly to a race that is under constant harrassment and pressure from attacks. It allows the defender to compensate for lost economy (one of the defender disadvantages) within fights without having to cut much production for it. Spawn larva mechanic instead and the mechanical requirement to keep it up during fights in order to keep up the pressure fits perfectly to an offensive style of play. This is turning to complete bullshit if you give the defender the spawn larva mechanic and the offender the mules. It is one side aspect why SC2 feels bad. Having spawn larva in defence mode just doesnt compensate much for defenders disadvantage as you still have to pay for and cut production to get your economy back up and running. Hence SC2 balance is so fragile. The fun of SC2 can be created in a metagame where Z can try and deny T third base and terran tries to take and secure it with PF, mines, bunkers, sieged tanks, liberators, etc. The tools of terrans perfectly allow metagames to evolve around defence centered builds. If Terran can afford he can execute medivac drops, banshee/liberator harrassment while being under the pressure of the Zerg. As Zerg got no mules (and then debuffed queens) he cannot make up for economic losses that easily during his attacks and his attacks can be slowed down through that. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to? I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2. I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers. GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers. Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods. I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS. Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay..... It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his matches in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM...... Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em. Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times. Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too... I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see.... 3 rax reaper used mostly in foreign scene and only byun in Korean scene. players like Kelazhur, MarineLord, uThermal, Major won shit lots of easy wins this season on frozen temple & galactic process. Here you can see Iaguz taking his 2 free maps from Scarlett if you really insist i might waste my time and find other vods in other tournaments | ||
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