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On November 07 2016 02:58 Aegwynn wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 02:51 yhellothere12 wrote:On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon.
We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff?
If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper? So let me get this straight: It's correct to scream imbalance after 1 match in which a Terran beats a Zerg (with the argument being primarily because of early game reapers). But it's incorrect to bring in the yearly statistics showing that vs % rates are extremely close, and that Zerg have won more tournaments and been far more represented in tournaments throughout the year? Nobody screamed imbalance, Byun probably would win the series anyway but at least it could be a fun series. As soon as Byun puts down the 2nd rax we all gonna know what will happen in the next minutes and the game will finish, there is no avoiding that or no counterplay exist. That is a problem. I personally no have problems vs 3 rax in my ladder games but it is so frustrating as a spectator. At least for me. Its ok if you enjoy jumping units around just because terran is winning.
I am with you !
The reaper is supposed to be a scouting unit and not a gg unit. We also have to look at the games - I think Dark went 2-3 times for pool before hatch, should be the perfect opening to hold reaper abuse - IT WAS NOT. Reapers are just to strong in the early game.
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^^this
Even if u defend mass reapers u're still in death animation because it sets u so behind that u die from follow up. Every game Byun played mass reapers , at the end of the harras he had more workers than Dark and third on the way. That's why its broken. U cannot defend it effectively even with perfect counter opening. Dark did his best and still was dead.
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Earlier in this thread was a video showcasing Dark's suboptimal queen micro. So, for me it is not zergs lacking tools to stop reapers, it was Byun using his tools way more efficient. And "IT IS EASIER TO USE REAPERS THAN TO DEFEND AGAINST THEM" whining are completely out of sanity.
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On November 07 2016 03:49 hiroshOne wrote:
^^this
Even if u defend mass reapers u're still in death animation because it sets u so behind that u die from follow up. Every game Byun played mass reapers , at the end of the harras he had more workers than Dark and third on the way. That's why its broken. U cannot defend it effectively even with perfect counter opening. Dark did his best and still was dead.
ByuN's reaper control is not something that should be taken into consideration when talking about balance or the entire bio army should be nerfed. Roaches are supposed to counter reapers, banelings are supposed to counter bio,and for the most of us it's working as intended; but that all changes when facing the best micro in the world.
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Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
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Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages.
Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out.
Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
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On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise:
"So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. "
Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
BTW even when outplayed Dark wasn't dead, he was behind. Then Byun capitalizing his advantage with precise tactics, superb unit position and control and hyperthread-like multitasking. I want to ask you, how on earth do you want terran win against zerg so you will be glad to see it?
On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote:
Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages.
Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out.
Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
This is not a fact, this is pure assumption. 3 rax reaper was there since HOTS, maybe even earlier so how do you think Byun's championship will boost all other terrans skill to make them win more tournaments?
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On November 07 2016 05:52 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build. Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z. Boiling it down to he had better micro is not factoring how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up. The whole thing s that even with great defense Z ends up behind.
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Reading this thread that's supposed to congratulate ByuN be like 
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On November 07 2016 06:01 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:52 FarFarSeer wrote:On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build. Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro? I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z. Boiling it down to he had better micro is not factoring how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up. The whole thing s that even with great defense Z ends up behind.
"I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z."
No it is not cleat, it is only your opinion, unargumented. Terran clearly haven't advantage against zerg in LOTV at all.
" how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up."
This is, again, unargumented opinion. Zerg have enough tools to stay on top of terran, if using them ON TOP WITH TERRAN. Dark used his tools worse and therefore lost. Why am i sure?
At first, a lot of terran use 3 rax reaper at all levels, this is popular build, but almost nobody could make it work against similar skilled opponent.
At second, in those particular games Byun clearly outmicroed Dark. Like Dark's queens wasn't shooting at reaper because byun moved it in and out of range while Dark just ordered move command on queen and wasn't fast enough to react. In game queen ended up with low health, then second reaper appeared and low - health queen was unable to provide cover fire to lings, so reaper had free time shooting lings kill one or two more then Dark should loose. Complicated? Yes. Hard to notice? Very. Because of 3 rax reaper is very BALANCED opening with very tight fights, where even slight advantage do matter.
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On November 07 2016 06:39 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 06:01 RaFox17 wrote:On November 07 2016 05:52 FarFarSeer wrote:On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build. Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro? I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z. Boiling it down to he had better micro is not factoring how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up. The whole thing s that even with great defense Z ends up behind. "I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z." No it is not cleat, it is only your opinion, unargumented. Terran clearly haven't advantage against zerg in LOTV at all. " how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up." This is, again, unargumented opinion. Zerg have enough tools to stay on top of terran, if using them ON TOP WITH TERRAN. Dark used his tools worse and therefore lost. Why am i sure? At first, a lot of terran use 3 rax reaper at all levels, this is popular build, but almost nobody could make it work against similar skilled opponent. At second, in those particular games Byun clearly outmicroed Dark. Like Dark's queens wasn't shooting at reaper because byun moved it in and out of range while Dark just ordered move command on queen and wasn't fast enough to react. In game queen ended up with low health, then second reaper appeared and low - health queen was unable to provide cover fire to lings, so reaper had free time shooting lings kill one or two more then Dark should loose. Complicated? Yes. Hard to notice? Very. But nothing to do with balance.
Attacking unargumented statement with the same kind of non argument  I think it is pretty simple to see that T has better weapons at hand. Reapers have incredible healing, grenades that screw your opponents position and kill larvae, normal attack, cliff jumping and can be massed early on. Zerg has really slow queens and slow lings at start. Also i have seen Uthermal easily defeat Snute 3-0 going 3-rax reaper every time.
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On November 07 2016 05:52 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build. Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro? BTW even when outplayed Dark wasn't dead, he was behind. Then Byun capitalizing his advantage with precise tactics, superb unit position and control and hyperthread-like multitasking. I want to ask you, how on earth do you want terran win against zerg so you will be glad to see it? Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote:
Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages.
Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out.
Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play... This is not a fact, this is pure assumption. 3 rax reaper was there since HOTS, maybe even earlier so how do you think Byun's championship will boost all other terrans skill to make them win more tournaments?
Is this not what i wrote? I'll quote myself then: "even if u don't die from this instant u are so behind thst u die from follow up attack"
That's what happened in those games. And Xerg my good sir has no comeback mechanics like fucking mules.
And 3 racks reapers in HOTS?Are u fucking kidding me? Since when?
Again. On the highest level of play where u can assume best micro and macro, no mechanic mistakes- mass reaper opening is imba. Even if u don't damage mineral line straight with reapers, u force so much reaction- units from Zergg, kill larva with freaking granades that Zerg cannot come back from this. So Zerg is forced to make some retarded allin as we saw in Dark vs Byun series or just die from follow up attack as he has no eco and production to stop it.
It's obvious that u never been even close to understand how Zerg works. So i have no hope that u would understand what i just wrote. Every gm zerg i know, and i know a few- will tell u the same.
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Are you surprised? In this community no one can win without being called out for racial imbalance.
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I hope never ByuN becomes interested in this thread :D
If he does though: ByuN, you are the best
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I think Liquid should give the man a contract. LiquidByun sounds nice :-)
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On November 07 2016 08:31 Spinoza wrote:
I think Liquid should give the man a contract. LiquidByun sounds nice :-)
That'd be sick. But since he's just signed on with a team I don't think that's in the cards.
On November 07 2016 08:24 xAdra wrote:Are you surprised? In this community no one can win without being called out for racial imbalance.
I'm a little surprised by it honestly. I'm more disappointed that the centerpiece in it is a badly thought out all in by Dark.
I don't know. I do not like ZvT. I think it is a badly designed match up and it isn't fun to play, and I enjoy watching it as a tradition rather than because it's entertaining. It annoys and stresses me even as a viewer.
I'd love to see it get shaken up but the reaper is small stuff. The entire dynamic, from Terrans complaining about late game to Zergs complaining about everything except the late game, is not where it should be.
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I like how someone took a picture of me getting a selfie with him and for some reason it's on TL
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Can't wait to watch these VOD's. TvZ is one of the only two matchups I enjoy watching (PvP is the other).
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Just finished watching all 6 of the games and I can just say Byun's pretty much brought micro to a new level.
I really don't give two fucks about the community's consensus about the "matchup quality" or some shit, Byun exhibited absolutely amazing micro in all 6 games and may be the first sc2 player to actually reach this kind of standard in his control.
Like a reason for SC:BW frequently being cited as better than SC2 is because of sc2's micro being much too difficult- you can control so many units and they die so fast, it's difficult for people to hit the skill ceiling and be the best player.
Yet if everyone could control like Byun, where it seems like there is a team of pro dota players controlling every single individual unit in his army, sc2 could show the its epic true potential.
I am disgusted that all these zergs are only here to talk imbalance- as a protoss I have no stake in the matchup, and I think Byun was by far the most deserving player at this entire event, pretty much bullying every single player out of his matches.
Congrats Byun, and if Sc2 really were to diminish, I am happy that its supernova was to be such a transcendentally skilled player.
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EPT
