EPTlike, vs zerg terran lacked real harassment for so long, since hellbats died out they had nothing to pressure a zerg's economy.
ByuN wins WCS Finals over Dark 4-2 - Page 8
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Tanzklaue
Germany1433 Posts
like, vs zerg terran lacked real harassment for so long, since hellbats died out they had nothing to pressure a zerg's economy. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
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Tanzklaue
Germany1433 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:14 hiroshOne wrote: Well Zerg never had early game harrasment options. Never. Wall denied everything. Now we have overlord drops but still its nothing compared to wide spectrum of Terran or Tosss harras. I would be fine with that if Blizzard wouldn't nerf Zergs macro by 25% in LOTV. You all criticize Zergs that they turtle to hive tech as it was their choice. The fact is that Zerg has no midgame. If they don't turtle- they die. mutalisk harassment was widely popular at many points of sc2's history. zerg never had any real all ins, but terran didn'T ahve them either, only protoss always ahd great tools to end games quick. | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:17 Tanzklaue wrote: mutalisk harassment was widely popular at many points of sc2's history. zerg never had any real all ins, but terran didn'T ahve them either, only protoss always ahd great tools to end games quick. I said EARLY game harrasment. Since when Mutas come inti play in early game? | ||
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Tanzklaue
Germany1433 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:18 hiroshOne wrote: I said EARLY game harrasment. Since when Mutas come inti play in early game? well, terran has had nothing in terms of early game harass for the longest time either then if you see mutas as not early game (i personally see both mutas and the hellbat drops of old as the transition from early game into midgame, so they are still early game harass in ym books). | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On November 06 2016 22:51 wjat wrote: Well everyone is mad about reapers but the truth is that Dark messed up on last game: 1- A really bad scoot 2- He could have get all the reapers when he did the surround but he didn't leave any speedlings on top of the edge. I mean that was obvious reaper would jump here. 3- Dark missplay shouldn't be the reason Reapers should be nerfed. 1-He scouted everythng, what do you even mean? 2-Just like most scenarios in sc2, attacking is easier than defending. 3-Dark didn't missplay, infact he played perfectly in Frozen Temple but still lost (no he didn't lose with the all-in, he already lost the game because he couldn't take a 3rd or drone) I am sorry can you show me a good respond to a 3 rax reaper in a high level ZvT? If you're thinking that Byun making reapers look broken that means you didn't watch any tournament beside this blizzcon. You can call me zerg bias but i really enjoyed last years final even though Life lost. This final was the worst of all time by far, even game 5 couldn't save it. This Blizzcon overall was the worst one, all of the series were one sided stomps, we didn't have a fun head to head series at all. The game looks in a really bad shape, i hope they do even more frequent marginal changes like the next patch we will have. | ||
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StatixEx
United Kingdom779 Posts
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Tanzklaue
Germany1433 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:24 Aegwynn wrote: 1-He scouted everythng, what do you even mean? 2-Just like most scenarios in sc2, attacking is easier than defending. 3-Dark didn't missplay, infact he played perfectly in Frozen Temple but still lost (no he didn't lose with the all-in, he already lost the game because he couldn't take a 3rd or drone) I am sorry can you show me a good respond to a 3 rax reaper in a high level ZvT? If you're thinking that Byun making reapers look broken that means you didn't watch any tournament beside this blizzcon. You can call me zerg bias but i really enjoyed last years final even though Life lost. This final was the worst of all time by far, even game 5 couldn't save it. This Blizzcon overall was the worst one, all of the series were one sided stomps, we didn't have a fun head to head series at all. The game looks in a really bad shape, i hope they do even more frequent marginal changes like the next patch we will have. i haven't followed sc2 a lot this year, but terran barely competed outside of byun or rarely ty, so i think it is safe to assume that reapers aren't a guaranteed win vs zerg, that something can be done or that byun is simply so much better than anyone else he makes them work. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:27 Tanzklaue wrote: i haven't followed sc2 a lot this year, but terran barely competed outside of byun or rarely ty, so i think it is safe to assume that reapers aren't a guaranteed win vs zerg, that something can be done or that byun is simply so much better than anyone else he makes them work. I don't know the statistics, i believe TvZ was terran favored while TvP is Protoss favored this season. 3 rax reaper is broken on only 2 maps, considering most series done as bo3, those maps usually get vetoed. And we don't see reapers other than scouting purpose in other maps, so what is the point of granades? To mass it on some maps? Why they exist? Anyway, problem isn't the overall balance, which can be balanced eventually. Its just frustrating to play and spectate. It just ruined many games throughout this year and eventually the most hyped grandfinal ever shadowed by game ending harrass. | ||
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Kaizor
Singapore910 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:42 Aegwynn wrote: I don't know the statistics, i believe TvZ was terran favored while TvP is Protoss favored this season. This is the worse thing to say. It's like trump saying, i don't know whats wrong with america but i believe muslims/mexicans are the main problem. Statistics are important, you cannot just claim something is true because you believe it. Aligulac records for individual races are down at the moment so i can't pull that out but everyone knows that terran representation this year has been abysmal to say the least. How many top terrans had decent results in individual tournaments this year besides TY and Byun? Maybe Ryung? Compared to the vast majority of protosses and zergs we have in tournaments in EU and Korea. | ||
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Athenau
590 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments Winrates: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above. | ||
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Kaizor
Singapore910 Posts
On November 07 2016 00:59 Athenau wrote: Tournament results: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments Winrates: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above. Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2. | ||
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Crovear
4 Posts
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yhellothere12
46 Posts
Kaizor thank you for bringing a degree of logic that was clearly missing in this thread lol. I'm kind of amazed how quickly one match results devolves into "X race or Y unit is overpowered. NERF IMMEDIATELY." I'm not sure how you can make the argument that terran is overpowered given they've consistently won less tournaments and have been underrepresented often as well. Man if Boxer existed in this era, he would have gotten trashed. So sad to see people so divided over favorite players and races, and can't even enjoy the the game. On a quick note, I would like to bring some positivity to the thread, and say that it was AWESOME seeing around 100k people in the main SC2 stream ALONE. I remember watching Life vs SOS with the stream having around 60k (if I remember correctly). Glad to see the wonderful support from the community, as well as the stream count getting higher as the stream went on. Seemed a lot of people were enjoying a great finals. | ||
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Athenau
590 Posts
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Xhiz
Portugal11 Posts
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 07 2016 01:29 Crovear wrote: It took 8 pages to take this "discussion" factual, objective and to the core of things. We have to nerf Byun It´s the same strategy Uthermal has used a lot to dominate players like Snute. TvZ is not broken but stupid. Terran dominates early-mid game and z dominates lategame. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On November 06 2016 14:04 Lexender wrote: I think you can get away with the grenade if you reduce the gas cost of reapers from 50 to 25, in HotS it made sense, since you could get reapers before any counter unit, but in LotV by the time they get to the enemy base they have like 5 secods before a adept/hellion/queen its out and then they become useless. 50/50 for 1 supply is actually super expensive, the only units that are so expensive per supply are casters (ravens/HT/sentries/vipers/etc) It doesn't seem as expensive since the 12 worker start. You get 16 on minerals so fast even taking gas. I was actually going to joke about Byun getting Reapers nerfed like Mvp got ghosts nerfed, but it seems less like a joke now. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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SCHWARZENEGGER
206 Posts
On November 07 2016 01:56 RaFox17 wrote: It´s the same strategy Uthermal has used a lot to dominate players like Snute. TvZ is not broken but stupid. Terran dominates early-mid game and z dominates lategame. terran is hardest to master, even if number of terran trophies screams about it, only who play each race long enough can understand. | ||
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