Byun Completes Fairy Tale Story - From Missing to Undisputed Best in a Year Clinches Title with 4-2 Victory over Dark in WCS Grand Final
ByuN entered WCS 2016 as one of the firm favorites to take the title, but after a surprise loss to ShoWTimE in the group stage doubt began to surface about whether he would go the distance. He put any doubts to rest after his impressive 3-1 victory over TY and reaffirmed to the world that he was the best Terran player in the world. A clean series against Stats in the semifinal vaulted him into the final where he would meet Dark.
Dark was the other player tipped to win the whole thing early on in the tournament. Unlike Byun, there were never any questions as to his form as he breezed through his group and dispatched non-Korean prodigy Neeb 3-0 in his quarterfinal. A master class of ZvZ prowess was displayed in his semifinal against Elazer and he easily booked his spot in this years WCS Grand Final.
Dark and Byun wrote a new chapter in the history of great ZvT series in their final and treated SC2 fans to a final that will be remembered for years to come.
Game one opened up on Galatic Process with Byun pressuring early with 2rax reaper. The game mostly stabilized and both players worked their way up to three bases. Byun's plan was to attack with a marine-tank-medivac push off of three bases and hit Dark while he was still trying to get his fourth base saturated. With Byun's trademark micro and excellent utilisation of the terrain around the third-fourth base, Dark took major losses from his he was never able to recover from.
Excellent control paved the way to victory in game 1 for Byun
Game two was on New Gettysburg and after some brief cloaked banshee harass the game started to look similar to game one. Byun moved out again with a marine-tank-medivac push and was able to deny Dark's fourth base. But Dark didn't trade his army this time, and took a fifth while stalling for ultralisks. Byun waited until 2-2 before going for the death push but Dark was in time with ultralisks. With Byun's advance successfully repelled the game was squarely in Dark's favor. Players traded blows for a while before Dark's superior economy overran Byun and levelled the series 1-1.
Dark held on long enough for ultras then never looked back
Frozen Temple would be the stage for game 3. Byun opened with three rax reaper pressure and looked to gain an edge early on. Dark pivoted from his earlier macro oriented gameplan and looked to a timing attack to score him a second map win. Dark's keen sense for executing timing attacks had thus far in the tournament been unanswered by his opposition, but Byun is no ordinary opponent. Byun masterfully dealt with Dark's ravager timing attack and scored a quick win putting him ahead 2-1.
Byun chases down the last remnants of Dark's ravager timing attack
The traditionally Zerg favored Apotheosis would be the map for game 4. This time Byun treated us to a hellion opening which dealt a severe blow to Dark's economy. While Dark tried to hang on using the gold base, he was always one step behind. Byun took the early game advantage and never let it go and went up 3-1. At this point it seemed like Dark would need to pull out something special to win the series. But being a former champion, Dark dug deep and pulled out something spectacular in game 5.
Hellions made a lone appearance in the finals, but paid dividends for Byun when they did
King Sejong Station would be the site of a fantastic game. Byun resorted to the strategy from games 1 and 3; the marine tank push was unable to deal the killing blow but neither Byun or Dark gained an edge after the push was deflected. The game progressed to late game armies and Byun started to get an edge as he placed pressure on Dark's recent expansions. Importantly, Dark never let Byun have uncontested air superiority and was able to keep Byuns medivacs and liberators in check. This meant Dark was able to weather the storm Byun threw at him until Byun ran out of money and was forced to concede. It was an incredible hold by Dark and showed his championship class.
Scrappy engagements characterised the lategame slugfest between Dark and Byun in game 5
Yes, the game really was that good
Game 6 on Frost would be the last game of the series as Byun dealt a significant early blow with 3rax reaper. It was extremely unlucky for Dark who saw Byun building a barracks on top of his ramp as if it were a fast expansion and assumed that this is what was happening. Actually Byun had built two additional barracks at his natural which were missed by the overlord. Dark did his best to come back in the game, but Byun's marine-tank-medivac push gained him an insurmountable lead. The killing blow was seemingly endless multipronged attacks which Dark never had the units to defend from.
Reapers did a lot of work for Byun this series, so it was fitting that they closed it out
An incredible performance from both players, but Byun emerged as your world champion for 2016.
That was amazing, this top 16 has really re-kindled my interest in Sc2. So many great stories, and ByuN winning was great. First Terran winner since WCS started am I correct?
... but part of myself can't help but think about how terran favored Frost cross spawned is in TvZ (could anyone draw the statistics out? I heard some horrible stuff about the win ratios among the top players in this matchup for these positions) ... but I mean still, both players played extremely well, they gave us a great show, can't be disappointed.
Totally impressed by how fast the VODs are up. If I had only known, I would have gone to bed and watched it right away in the morning Sometimes you have to wait several days and then the hype is gone. Well, I watched it live instead, which is fine, because that way I supported SC2....
GREAT games overall, Actually there were only 2 cool series at Blizzcon: The TvT and the finals
On November 06 2016 09:33 SpunXtain20 wrote: A fitting swansong game for SC2 as it reaches its twilight and BW again becomes the biggest game in Korea.
User was warned for this post
I think you misspelled Overwatch there, and also I am not sure if you can kill off SC2 THAT fast. A broodwar HD anouncement and Proleague switching to BW would mean.... yeah SC2 is totally going to die, but now its just gotten smaller, not dead.
Amazing and well deserved victory. Dark was the toughest opponent ByuN had to face since you can't finish zerg with 3rax reaper the same way you can in TvT. His path was awesome, he beat the best of each race in bo5 then the bo7 against Dark, with an awesome game 5 that both could have won (really unfortunate he didn't finish this ultra off near his fifth). Hopefully these 9 points will help me get back into top 100, I lost a lot in LB voting for foreigners again and again.
Really unfortunate we can't see the players first pov.
ByuN showing dominance in all 3 match ups. Watching him win GSL and now BlizzCon was a something very special. Undoubtedly the best player in Starcraft 2. Congrats ByuN!
An amazing series and so Happy Byun came out top. When you hear stories about guys who pratice late into the night to the point everyone else respects him and it pays off then you can't be help feel like they deservered it.
On November 06 2016 09:58 Poopi wrote: Really unfortunate we can't see the players first pov.
Maybe there will be a replaypack?
I mean real fpov which was probably insane.
You mean with mouse interactions? Hmm that would be awesome. But I was already sick after some Flash Replays and all his camera changes :D Because everything else you can have in a replay (by selecting the players, but I guess you know that already).
To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
On November 06 2016 10:41 KeksX wrote: Well deserved win for ByuN, although I wanted Dark to win
Even though I believed from the start of Blizzcon Dark was the best Zerg in the world.. I wanted Byun to win. As a person. Above races and cheers and balance and all that shit. I just wanted Byun to win.
He did and did so in the most convincing, skillful fashion. He confused and at some points annoyed me that he refused to make ghosts and go late game. He just stuck to his guns, used the units he knew best, and won.
Insane Finals...I was sorta surprised Dark did not try to take a more agressive stance against the Terran God though, for the most part he backed his macro and defense to win the day...Game 5 he proved his strategy had some merit, but to consistently play like Dark did in Game 5 is nigh impossible. CONgratz to both, Byun Super well played Sir!!! What a Gweomul!!!
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
This final was what I needed to rekindle my passion.
I saw Byun in early GSL days. He was already good, but never on the top. Now he came back. Without a team, he tore through the GSL. At Blizzcon, he faced the new-age zerg which was destined to dominate. But Byun prepared better.
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
I felt same, and even in Korean community, people said reaper build ruined the final. I actually predicted no terran can beat Dark in bo5 or 7 but oh wait, when you can't beat Dark with 2 medivac timing, you still can use 3 rax reaper build to make him start economically poor and beat him with mass bios in the mid-game. If you give those reaper grenades to someone insane micro player like ByuN, then it is almost impossible for zerg to outplay it totally...
It's sort of problematic, but I do not think it's game-breaking. Reapers are sort of mandatory though, due to their strength in scouting and against slowlings.
However, I thought it was great. It was just like watching Mvp do his risky plays with proxies and stuff. The players make the builds and units look imba just because they handle it so well. Byun has probably the best reaper control in the world, and he knows how to pull it out.
However, I'd be okay with reapers getting reworked SO LONG AS... Ultras stop being such a dumb end-game unit. That is the most anti-fun unit ever.
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
When i saw the granade first time in beta it looked really stupid and meaningless, my opinion still didn't change. Even though someone could feel like its a *cool consept" for the first time, after seeing mass reaper every single game on frozen temple-Galactic Process its not cool anymore to any player/spectator. Its keep ruining TvT games as well. No nerf needed, just a complete removal because its existence has no purpose at the first place.
It's sort of problematic, but I do not think it's game-breaking. Reapers are sort of mandatory though, due to their strength in scouting and against slowlings.
However, I thought it was great. It was just like watching Mvp do his risky plays with proxies and stuff. The players make the builds and units look imba just because they handle it so well. Byun has probably the best reaper control in the world, and he knows how to pull it out.
However, I'd be okay with reapers getting reworked SO LONG AS... Ultras stop being such a dumb end-game unit. That is the most anti-fun unit ever.
I am random player, but I really don't think ultra is op in TvZ, as long as terran makes ghosts and liberators and keep denying zerg eco. (as long as terran is good enough to control his units) and meanwhile, I see 3 rax reaper build is problem, it makes zerg can't do anything effective against it. If zerg starts with really poor eco against terran, then it is extremely hard to come back there if you are vs same lvl opponent.
I am now reading all comments in Korean community, zerg high level amateurs and pros saying 3 rax reaper build is a cancer, and zerg can't do anything against it, and even some terran pros said they acknowledge 3 rax reaper build is insanely good against zerg, and op build. Forcing zerg to produce ravagers and start economically so poor, but still zerg can't do anything against terran it's just stupid.
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
Very few players have the kind of control Byun has.
At 2:30 he manages to get 4 shots for free. Against a unit that "counters" it. One of the grave sins over the years has been sacrificing on the altar of balance. Some pro made something OP so we need to address that. Pros don't have a problem dealing with bunker rushes so we are gonna just sit on it for months while everyone tries out this new LoL / DotA thing.
Byun is very very good. He has changed the meta for the entire game before.
I disagree with Snute and Aegwynns about what really stymies ZvT. It isn't reapers, or the early game. The mid game in ZvT is absolute shit and I'd rather (and often do) play different games competitively than deal with yet-another-16 marine drop. It's stale, it wasn't fun to play against the first time, and it exposes how uninteresting ZvT is in the mid game. Zergs that try to be aggressive are all in. Similarly, if T gets zero damage done through economic loss or forcing units to be made, they are sufficiently behind that it's no longer their game to win and they have to hope their opponent makes a big mistake.
It's not pretty. It's really not fun. And it's hard to convince people that are burnt out by it to give it another chance because it's exactly what they will see 8 games out of 10. It does have the same dynamic however. Terran has micro intensive units that reward skillful play. That's excellent game design. I just wish they'd share that with the other races.
Was kind of a "meh" finale imo, mostly Dark trying not to fall apart against reaper penetration early game. (felt like watching idra vs MorroW IEM finale 2010 again xd)
Game 5 tho...I wasn´t that much on the edge of my seat since watching "The shallows" :D
Insane Finals...I was sorta surprised Dark did not try to take a more agressive stance against the Terran God though, for the most part he backed his macro and defense to win the day...Game 5 he proved his strategy had some merit, but to consistently play like Dark did in Game 5 is nigh impossible. CONgratz to both, Byun Super well played Sir!!! What a Gweomul!!!
It is actually ByuN who used aggressive build to beat Dark... Dark won 2 games by straight macro game, while ByuN took 3 games by op 3 rax reaper build... I love both ByuN and Dark so much equally and they are fantastic players, but can't deny when ByuN used usual 2 medivac timing build in game 5, he couldn't do anything, ByuN still showed amazing micro that most of other terrans can't do, but Dark won at the end... you can say ByuN took at least 3 games with aggressive OP builds.
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
Very few players have the kind of control Byun has.
At 2:30 he manages to get 4 shots for free. Against a unit that "counters" it. One of the grave sins over the years has been sacrificing on the altar of balance. Some pro made something OP so we need to address that. Pros don't have a problem dealing with bunker rushes so we are gonna just sit on it for months while everyone tries out this new LoL / DotA thing.
Byun is very very good. He has changed the meta for the entire game before.
I disagree with Snute and Aegwynns about what really stymies ZvT. It isn't reapers, or the early game. The mid game in ZvT is absolute shit and I'd rather (and often do) play different games competitively than deal with yet-another-16 marine drop. It's stale, it wasn't fun to play against the first time, and it exposes how uninteresting ZvT is in the mid game. Zergs that try to be aggressive are all in. Similarly, if T gets zero damage done through economic loss or forcing units to be made, they are sufficiently behind that it's no longer their game to win and they have to hope their opponent makes a big mistake.
It's not pretty. It's really not fun. And it's hard to convince people that are burnt out by it to give it another chance because it's exactly what they will see 8 games out of 10. It does have the same dynamic however. Terran has micro intensive units that reward skillful play. That's excellent game design. I just wish they'd share that with the other races.
You don't have to have byun micro to be succesful with the reapers. Lots of foreign terrans had ez wins on frozen temple and galactic this year. I watched tons of 3rax on frozen and %90 of the games goes the same way, dealing damage with the reapers isn't the problem, just making the 3 rax opening puts you automatically ahead even if you're a mediocre terran. Even Uthermal stated that how broken it is months ago. Mid game is terran favored but i don't know how you pulled this discussion to there. There were 6 games in this series, 2 of them finished in late game other 4 finished in early game so practically we didn't even see a competitive mid-game. And i believe very few people enjoys reapers rather than mid game fights.
As someone who has played way way too many thousand and thousand of games (mostly WoL and HotS) the changes in LotV I think are worst are new chrono boost and new reapers :D
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
I think you can get away with the grenade if you reduce the gas cost of reapers from 50 to 25, in HotS it made sense, since you could get reapers before any counter unit, but in LotV by the time they get to the enemy base they have like 5 secods before a adept/hellion/queen its out and then they become useless.
50/50 for 1 supply is actually super expensive, the only units that are so expensive per supply are casters (ravens/HT/sentries/vipers/etc)
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
as someone who doesn't really follow SCII (only saw 2 games before, Nerchio vs Maru), reapers' micro throughout the finals was fantastic from Byun but I do feel like grenade needs maybe a slight nerf? He delayed that all-in easily in one of the games and in the others, felt like it would be terribly hard for a Zerg to straight up engage because Byun would constantly zone with grenades. It's a cool concept but might need a fix?
Very few players have the kind of control Byun has.
At 2:30 he manages to get 4 shots for free. Against a unit that "counters" it. One of the grave sins over the years has been sacrificing on the altar of balance. Some pro made something OP so we need to address that. Pros don't have a problem dealing with bunker rushes so we are gonna just sit on it for months while everyone tries out this new LoL / DotA thing.
Byun is very very good. He has changed the meta for the entire game before.
I disagree with Snute and Aegwynns about what really stymies ZvT. It isn't reapers, or the early game. The mid game in ZvT is absolute shit and I'd rather (and often do) play different games competitively than deal with yet-another-16 marine drop. It's stale, it wasn't fun to play against the first time, and it exposes how uninteresting ZvT is in the mid game. Zergs that try to be aggressive are all in. Similarly, if T gets zero damage done through economic loss or forcing units to be made, they are sufficiently behind that it's no longer their game to win and they have to hope their opponent makes a big mistake.
It's not pretty. It's really not fun. And it's hard to convince people that are burnt out by it to give it another chance because it's exactly what they will see 8 games out of 10. It does have the same dynamic however. Terran has micro intensive units that reward skillful play. That's excellent game design. I just wish they'd share that with the other races.
You don't have to have byun micro to be succesful with the reapers. Lots of foreign terrans had ez wins on frozen temple and galactic this year. I watched tons of 3rax on frozen and %90 of the games goes the same way, dealing damage with the reapers isn't the problem, just making the 3 rax opening puts you automatically ahead even if you're a mediocre terran. Even Uthermal stated that how broken it is months ago. Mid game is terran favored but i don't know how you pulled this discussion to there. There were 6 games in this series, 2 of them finished in late game other 4 finished in early game so practically we didn't even see a competitive mid-game. And i believe very few people enjoys reapers rather than mid game fights.
At a point Zergs adjusted. For a while opening with roaches was normal. This is one of those things that works but there's clear ways to stop it and it can be stopped.
Darks great mistake wasn't mis-microing or having poor macro or some mechanical issue. He made a decision to go all in when his opponent had taken an edge against him in army. Against a lesser Terran it probably would have worked. But against one with the best control, he needed to accept that. Byun accepted Dark had a lead many times over the series and didn't force the issue. He played for the long game. And in that long game I feel Dark was best and in the LR thread and now I feel like he made a serious miscalculation by going for an all in attack.
And that leaves me where I was a few hours ago when I wrote my last post. The problem isn't that the reaper is this gosu 2skill OP unit. It's that Zerg really doesn't have any great mid game units that don't put them in a do or die situation against Terran, and the match up is pretty fuckin stale to begin with.
In this regard I have hope in the balance patch. Swarm hosts might finally work. Hydras might not be a throw against bio. Mutalisks won't get shit on by the presence of a handful of liberators. Lots of things will change and I'm not in any rush to nerf the reaper rush before we've seen what we can do against the new changes.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
While i thought about that solution before i don't see why we want the ability to be in the game to begin with. Reapers still aren't used in the mid to lategame because of it, all it did was buffing them in the early game. Nobody ever asked for that and it wasn't needed. The whole idea of reapers being useful in the mid to lategame doesn't work because of medivacs. Every bio terran wants to have medivas which makes mobility a non factor. Ofc reapers aren't used to harass when medivacs with bio are way better at doing the same. Remove that stupid grenade completely and if people cry about reapers being useless later on in the game so be it. (grenades don't change that)
Dark fan here as well. While seeing all the talk of the reapers consoles my heart, let's not take away from ByuN's moment. He played godly well
I do have one qualm about the OP though. I don't think Dark misread G6, I think that rax timing was pretty clearly a 3rax reaper and not a CC first multiple rax. In any case, as soon as that first reaper shows up, it's obviously not CC first and is a 3rax, don't think it was a misread.
Higher level zergs can comment on this, but maybe Dark didn't go for roaches since w/ a hatch gas pool, getting ravagers out will take too long on close spawns vs. the 3rax?
And to weigh in on the reaper discussion, I recall that the grenade was to give reapers utility in the mid-late game by disrupting concaves, not meant as an early game harassment tool
I think the best solution is to remove the charge. I'm not convinced that making reapers an available option for midgame play is such a good idea. If we must keep the charge in, for this purpose, we have to balance the game starting from 3rax, since that's the only build that goes into the midgame w/ a reasonable mass of reapers.
To this end, two solutions could be proposed, in addition to what we've proposed before. 1) grenades don't do damage. This significantly reduces early game reaper poke, though it's probably still a bit too strong at delaying.
Or 2) turn it into a research that requires something later game, e.g. armory. A buff would then be required, since it would be so late. Maybe instant bomb?
I feel sorry for Dark , but there is still hope for him to win a big tournament again . Next year we will still have 2 GSL/2SSL, 2 Kespa cup, 2 Cross final, at least in Korea. If Dark still practices and plays on this level, he will definitely win a lot more tournaments. Because Dark and Byun are now 2 of very few remaining pros and I believe Dark's mid game/macro game is perfect, he just need to adjust his early game to not die to builds like 3 rax reaper.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
I've been saying this one for awhile. Not even with just the reaper but maybe experimenting with giving certain units abilities with a finite number of uses as another angle of balance, much like how the vulture functioned in BW with the spider mines.
I think the oracle could be a good candidate for this as well with stasis ward.
Incredibly impressive games from both players. ByuN was the one Korean player I was rooting for and he could very well be my new terran love now that TaeJa is retired.
Also leave the poor reapers alone . I don't want them to fade to obscurity like they did for the second half of WoL and pretty much the entirety of HotS. Their only niche is in the early game and if they get nerfed there's a good chance they'll go back to never being built again.
On November 06 2016 15:56 showstealer1829 wrote: It wouldn't be TL if after the best Blizzcon finals for a while some of us didn't whine about the damn reaper grenades
This is my first time ever posting on here, but I felt compelled to after reading a lot of these post..
The Sc2 community I feel is silly sometimes. The player who CLEARLY has the best SKILLS won. Not the best build order, or some op comp like Broodlord infestor, or swarm host nonsense. And people have the BALLS to try to blame Byuns win on a build order? He's as Artosis has described him,THE BEST REAPER PLAYER IN THE WORLD. And this is SKILL BASED, MICRO BASED, HOW THE HELL IS IT A BUILD ORDER THING? I really feel like you take away adepts and a lot of Protoss just straight up don't know how to play. Case in point is how they favored adept builds over the more micro intensive stalker disruptor play.
No banshees, hellions, cyclones, and after the queen buff, liberators in the early game really. So what's left? The Byun build, ( which he also executes better than anyone else, just look at the Violet games, or Byuns win over Dark in the GSL where he snipes all the banes... Was that op too?) or three rax reapers. Dark was one of the first zergs I saw who rushed a roach warren and then got an early ravager to push reaper builds back. SLOW THE GODDAMN GAME DOWN!!!!! Stop trying to rush to Ultras every damn game ASAP. And I mostly played Zerg in my time.
Byun did that Medi-vac build iN EVERY game practically in SSL, Dark SHOULD HAVE HAD AN ANSWER FOR IT GOOD LORD, how many games were available to study? 100? Easy. Maybe 300 lol...
If the build is so strong why only TWO terrans at blizzcon and SEVEN GODDAMN ZERGS? Did TY do it even ONCE at Blizzconn? Did Maru do it to Nerchio at Kespa cup?
Take Byuns Dear GSL semis, where Byun goes cloak Banshees. That wasn't a " build" , you can't just GO banshees and expect it to work, that was a strat, based on the meta of banshees being useless vs stargate openings, and toss going warp prism first, therefore being unprepared vs a cloak tech cause they have no detection.That's a GodDamn STRATEGY!!!!
The community loves builds, anyone can replicate some build. But what Byun does, very few can, and I feel like people don't like it when the game is more micro oriented, you can't just study and replicate the play. Seriously' mass banes still kill Terrans easily, why didn't we see that?
Or it's like when Showtime surprises Byun by actually making a support unit and using it correctly. Byun might have played 100 straight games vs build order toss players who NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED MAKING A COLOSSI, of course he's gonna be taken aback.
The Terran scene in Korea was SO STRONG THIS YEAR, yet only 2 at Blizzcon, still all this whining, Goddamn SHM
This is really the first time I've heard any serious calls for nerfing the reaper. Is it really worth it if only one player can exploit its full strength?
ByuN gave us a masterclass in each match-up for terran. This is how you beat some of the top players from each race.
For many many many years i cheer for zergs. But Byun is such a nice person it's really hard not to like him. I want to ask, after new patch will reaper openings that strong still? If i'm correct zerglings and other units will get a health buff? Or that doesn't matter and it will be the same? Are reapers (or Byun reapers) really broken or were there things that Dark could have done differently?
It is obvious that this reaper build is not balanced at all. Remember how WOL reapers were nerfed? Well in LOTV they were rebuffed and are as strong as they was then, and they added granades...How cannot this be broken?
The problem with mass reapers early game in ZvT is that Zerg has two outcomes to face- either u die or you are so behind that u die from follow up attack. That's what happened in those finals. The only wat Zerg can defend this and go into midgame without being behind is when Terran messes up micro, and on the level of blizzcon finals, it's unlikely. Hope that Blizzard will fix this. TLO's proposalwhich Snute quoted seems to be good direction.
Neither way, congratulations to the winner. It was great finals.
Dark looked pretty confident of securing the championship after an overwhelming performance against Elazer.. But who knows, Byun's outstanding micro and strategy seemed to play out on the grand final ,eventually earn him what he deserves... Good work byun, looking forward to seeing more games in the upcoming homestory cup.
This is my first time ever posting on here, but I felt compelled to after reading a lot of these post..
The Sc2 community I feel is silly sometimes. The player who CLEARLY has the best SKILLS won. Not the best build order, or some op comp like Broodlord infestor, or swarm host nonsense. And people have the BALLS to try to blame Byuns win on a build order? He's as Artosis has described him,THE BEST REAPER PLAYER IN THE WORLD. And this is SKILL BASED, MICRO BASED, HOW THE HELL IS IT A BUILD ORDER THING? I really feel like you take away adepts and a lot of Protoss just straight up don't know how to play. Case in point is how they favored adept builds over the more micro intensive stalker disruptor play.
No banshees, hellions, cyclones, and after the queen buff, liberators in the early game really. So what's left? The Byun build, ( which he also executes better than anyone else, just look at the Violet games, or Byuns win over Dark in the GSL where he snipes all the banes... Was that op too?) or three rax reapers. Dark was one of the first zergs I saw who rushed a roach warren and then got an early ravager to push reaper builds back. SLOW THE GODDAMN GAME DOWN!!!!! Stop trying to rush to Ultras every damn game ASAP. And I mostly played Zerg in my time.
Byun did that Medi-vac build iN EVERY game practically in SSL, Dark SHOULD HAVE HAD AN ANSWER FOR IT GOOD LORD, how many games were available to study? 100? Easy. Maybe 300 lol...
If the build is so strong why only TWO terrans at blizzcon and SEVEN GODDAMN ZERGS? Did TY do it even ONCE at Blizzconn? Did Maru do it to Nerchio at Kespa cup?
Take Byuns Dear GSL semis, where Byun goes cloak Banshees. That wasn't a " build" , you can't just GO banshees and expect it to work, that was a strat, based on the meta of banshees being useless vs stargate openings, and toss going warp prism first, therefore being unprepared vs a cloak tech cause they have no detection.That's a GodDamn STRATEGY!!!!
The community loves builds, anyone can replicate some build. But what Byun does, very few can, and I feel like people don't like it when the game is more micro oriented, you can't just study and replicate the play. Seriously' mass banes still kill Terrans easily, why didn't we see that?
Or it's like when Showtime surprises Byun by actually making a support unit and using it correctly. Byun might have played 100 straight games vs build order toss players who NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED MAKING A COLOSSI, of course he's gonna be taken aback.
The Terran scene in Korea was SO STRONG THIS YEAR, yet only 2 at Blizzcon, still all this whining, Goddamn SHM
I love this post, you could have toned down on the caps and generally anger but the point you make is great and i think your arguments are more on point. That said i am not a pro or even its hard to call me a sc2 player but if the pros think the grenade is op/bad for the game, maybe we could increase the cooldown by 1-5 sec or smth like that. Im surprised these kind of nerfs are rarely proposed.
On November 06 2016 16:16 RaFox17 wrote: Gongratz to Byun! Next let´s fix reapers so ZvT returns as the best matchup.
What's wrong with reapers besides the fact that they're one of the "you have x minutes to live" units?
Not sure what you mean by "x minutes to live" but they are too powerfull to come out so early with such mass. They have healing, mobility and firepower. The fact that they but zerg behind in a meta where Z mid game is really weak vs. T is a big problem. All the cards are in the T players hands because of the strengths of the reaper.
On November 06 2016 16:30 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: This is my first time ever posting on here, but I felt compelled to after reading a lot of these post..
The Sc2 community I feel is silly sometimes. The player who CLEARLY has the best SKILLS won. Not the best build order, or some op comp like Broodlord infestor, or swarm host nonsense. And people have the BALLS to try to blame Byuns win on a build order? He's as Artosis has described him,THE BEST REAPER PLAYER IN THE WORLD. And this is SKILL BASED, MICRO BASED, HOW THE HELL IS IT A BUILD ORDER THING? I really feel like you take away adepts and a lot of Protoss just straight up don't know how to play. Case in point is how they favored adept builds over the more micro intensive stalker disruptor play.
No banshees, hellions, cyclones, and after the queen buff, liberators in the early game really. So what's left? The Byun build, ( which he also executes better than anyone else, just look at the Violet games, or Byuns win over Dark in the GSL where he snipes all the banes... Was that op too?) or three rax reapers. Dark was one of the first zergs I saw who rushed a roach warren and then got an early ravager to push reaper builds back. SLOW THE GODDAMN GAME DOWN!!!!! Stop trying to rush to Ultras every damn game ASAP. And I mostly played Zerg in my time.
Byun did that Medi-vac build iN EVERY game practically in SSL, Dark SHOULD HAVE HAD AN ANSWER FOR IT GOOD LORD, how many games were available to study? 100? Easy. Maybe 300 lol...
If the build is so strong why only TWO terrans at blizzcon and SEVEN GODDAMN ZERGS? Did TY do it even ONCE at Blizzconn? Did Maru do it to Nerchio at Kespa cup?
Take Byuns Dear GSL semis, where Byun goes cloak Banshees. That wasn't a " build" , you can't just GO banshees and expect it to work, that was a strat, based on the meta of banshees being useless vs stargate openings, and toss going warp prism first, therefore being unprepared vs a cloak tech cause they have no detection.That's a GodDamn STRATEGY!!!!
The community loves builds, anyone can replicate some build. But what Byun does, very few can, and I feel like people don't like it when the game is more micro oriented, you can't just study and replicate the play. Seriously' mass banes still kill Terrans easily, why didn't we see that?
Or it's like when Showtime surprises Byun by actually making a support unit and using it correctly. Byun might have played 100 straight games vs build order toss players who NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED MAKING A COLOSSI, of course he's gonna be taken aback.
The Terran scene in Korea was SO STRONG THIS YEAR, yet only 2 at Blizzcon, still all this whining, Goddamn SHM
You tell people to stop whining and then you whine about adepts and toss/zerg not knowing how to play. Of course, only terrans know how to play. ALSO DON'T USE CAPS! IT INVALIDATES YOUR POINTS!
I'm happy for ByuN. I remember his great super long only ghost games against protosses and I liked it!
But at the same time it is sad to see what happened to sc2. Just think about it, finals of the most important tournament of the year is ByuN vs Dark.. wtf is this? Code a qualifiers? What did you do with the game so people like Jaedong, Flash, Mvp retired and people like Zest, sOs, Maru have not enought interest in a game to work their ass off whole year?
On November 06 2016 19:11 LuckyGnomTV wrote: I'm happy for ByuN. I remember his great super long only ghost games against protosses and I liked it!
But at the same time it is sad to see what happened to sc2. Just think about it, finals of the most important tournament of the year is ByuN vs Dark.. wtf is this? Code a qualifiers? What did you do with the game so people like Jaedong, Flash, Mvp retired and people like Zest, sOs, Maru have not enought interest in a game to work their ass off whole year?
What an odd thing to say.
Mvp retired cause he's broken, Flash and JD had middling success at SC2 and went back to the game they are far better/more popular in. Zest made it further in Blizzcon than he ever has, Maru sucks nuts and sOs only wins every 2nd year.
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
Honestly it's a thousand times more interesting to watch than your impregnable turtle games. With ultra, infestor, viper being so strong Zerg aims to skip the mid game anyway. The nade may need a tweak (I like the limited charge idea) but it takes a lot of skill to do what Byun did with it. If they are shut down easily by a few well positioned units well that's not a better player winning. I'd rather see some kind of counter micro option than more low APM solutions.
And if it were an auto win there wouldn't have been zergs at blizzcon. But if we're in a situation where the top Terran can't really win lategame without a supply advantage taking away the ability to do damage early is an awful idea. The windows to get through the wall of queens in the early/mid game are already tiny. If you close them all we're back to one strategy every game and very dull no rush 20 turtle fests that nobody really wants to watch.
Byuns made Starcraft interesting again by getting all up in peoples faces. He played like a boss. The games were fun to watch, certainly for someone who's not currently being frustrated on ladder by reaper strats. Did you see that crowd? The 100k viewers? Stop crapping on it with balance whines, at least for the minute. How would you feel if this were a thread about you winning something....
I use caps as a point of emphasis, maybe I should try italics?
Look, it's not just Byun, and it's not just posters. Showtime vs Dear case in point to the Protoss thing. The casters irritated me. They kinda assumed Dear SHOULD win because well, he's Korean right? (Three straight gsl top fours nothing to sneeze at mind you...) But I specifically remember back at the start of Legacy a series between Showtime and Parting. Stalker Disruptor mayhem. The interesting thing was that Showtime, kinda invented the PvP late game in that series by transitioning into Tempest. I remember Parting being stunned. He HAD to follow suit, and even though he eventually won the series, all he did in his interview was gush about Showtimes play, and how he definitely was as good as Korean pros, and HOW HE LEARNED A LOT FROM THAT SERIES.
Now, what happened was, Korean toss figured that you could simply overwhelm early Stalker counts with adept glave builds. So micro took a back seat to a build. Showtime said he hated that meta.
So when I saw Dear trying to go toe to toe with him with Stalker Disruptor, I KNEW he would get wrecked, as all the Korean toss players had been practicing for months was how to kill you with adepts.
That's was what I meant, not so much whining about Toss, but frustrated with their simple ass play.
Look at the Zergs, it's all roach ravager or ultras. I saw Dark popularize bane drops, bane runbys, he was the first Zerg I saw load up a ovie with queens and follow tank-a-vacs around. The first Zerg that made corruptors to kill Medi-vacs. Always gets ovie speed, the guy just played waaay smarter than all the other zergs, while being the absolute best at macro.
I'd watch proleague and see Wolf sneer at " online tournaments". And say stuff like, " this isn't olimoleague" .. But Byun playing in event, after event, grinding game after game, ladder match after ladder match. Not just practicing the same builds vs the same competition over and over until it's just muscle memory. What happens when a superior micro player like Byun or Maru, or MKP in his prime comes along and just throws your build against a wall? Byun made Dark PROVE TO HIM that he could overcome his micro, he couldn't. Not Byuns fault, nor his fault he practiced so incredibly hard all year long, taking on all comers.
I mean, you lose 2-3 reapers and that build is dead in the water. Byun is the ONLYterran I saw all year that not only keeps all the reapers alive, but he keeps them alive long after ling speed finishes, until medi-vacs and a tank comes out, and actually pushes with them. If you think that is a " Build" , try it against a competent player and see how hard you get wrecked lol. Do it 100 times in row, I think you are lucky if you get 50% win ratio
On November 06 2016 16:16 RaFox17 wrote: Gongratz to Byun! Next let´s fix reapers so ZvT returns as the best matchup.
What's wrong with reapers besides the fact that they're one of the "you have x minutes to live" units?
Not sure what you mean by "x minutes to live" but they are too powerfull to come out so early with such mass. They have healing, mobility and firepower. The fact that they but zerg behind in a meta where Z mid game is really weak vs. T is a big problem. All the cards are in the T players hands because of the strengths of the reaper.
Well, if it gives you any solace, reapers suck the fun out of TvT too.
And don't forget guys, they nerfed the tank-a-vacs, they nerfed the liberators. Then buffed the queen s so the hellion banshee play is much harder to pull off, if not useless. Again I ask, what's left, really, I would like to hear ideas..... Any thoughts?
On November 06 2016 19:29 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I use caps as a point of emphasis, maybe I should try italics?
Look, it's not just Byun, and it's not just posters. Showtime vs Dear case in point to the Protoss thing. The casters irritated me. They kinda assumed Dear SHOULD win because well, he's Korean right? (Three straight gsl top fours nothing to sneeze at mind you...) But I specifically remember back at the start of Legacy a series between Showtime and Parting. Stalker Disruptor mayhem. The interesting thing was that Showtime, kinda invented the PvP late game in that series by transitioning into Tempest. I remember Parting being stunned. He HAD to follow suit, and even though he eventually won the series, all he did in his interview was gush about Showtimes play, and how he definitely was as good as Korean pros, and HOW HE LEARNED A LOT FROM THAT SERIES.
Now, what happened was, Korean toss figured that you could simply overwhelm early Stalker counts with adept glave builds. So micro took a back seat to a build. Showtime said he hated that meta.
So when I saw Dear trying to go toe to toe with him with Stalker Disruptor, I KNEW he would get wrecked, as all the Korean toss players had been practicing for months was how to kill you with adepts.
That's was what I meant, not so much whining about Toss, but frustrated with their simple ass play.
Look at the Zergs, it's all roach ravager or ultras. I saw Dark popularize bane drops, bane runbys, he was the first Zerg I saw load up a ovie with queens and follow tank-a-vacs around. The first Zerg that made corruptors to kill Medi-vacs. Always gets ovie speed, the guy just played waaay smarter than all the other zergs, while being the absolute best at macro.
I'd watch proleague and see Wolf sneer at " online tournaments". And say stuff like, " this isn't olimoleague" .. But Byun playing in event, after event, grinding game after game, ladder match after ladder match. Not just practicing the same builds vs the same competition over and over until it's just muscle memory. What happens when a superior micro player like Byun or Maru, or MKP in his prime comes along and just throws your build against a wall? Byun made Dark PROVE TO HIM that he could overcome his micro, he couldn't. Not Byuns fault, nor his fault he practiced so incredibly hard all year long, taking on all comers.
I mean, you lose 2-3 reapers and that build is dead in the water. Byun is the ONLYterran I saw all year that not only keeps all the reapers alive, but he keeps them alive long after ling speed finishes, until medi-vacs and a tank comes out, and actually pushes with them. If you think that is a " Build" , try it against a competent player and see how hard you get wrecked lol. Do it 100 times in row, I think you are lucky if you get 50% win ratio
On November 06 2016 19:11 LuckyGnomTV wrote: I'm happy for ByuN. I remember his great super long only ghost games against protosses and I liked it!
But at the same time it is sad to see what happened to sc2. Just think about it, finals of the most important tournament of the year is ByuN vs Dark.. wtf is this? Code a qualifiers? What did you do with the game so people like Jaedong, Flash, Mvp retired and people like Zest, sOs, Maru have not enought interest in a game to work their ass off whole year?
Even an teamless iNnovation wants to get more pts to play better in next years Blizzcon, trust me. Everyone wanted to be in this final with the $$$.
I don't get all the talk about reapers when Dark was just 2-2 on KSS... it would be almost instant game over if he were able to go 3-3. The thing that hurts the most for a viewer and even player, is the powerfulness of zerg in lategame when both enter it on equal footing (TY made it look like terran can compete because he was entering it really ahead against Nerchio on Galactic Process).
Thus, without reapers, ByuN couldn't have limited Dark enough so we would have another: terran can't kill the zerg fast enough until ultra -> terran can't really attack anymore, turtles with liberators while dropping a bit, get killed by the broodlord switch. (Blizzard is at fault for this horrible design) Thankfully reaper builds allowed ByuN to stand a chance, and only him is microing them that well.
Well ByuN didn't go for a heavy reaper build on KSS and the game was still very close. Im a terran player and I have to admit reapers are ridiculous,of course ByuN has sick micro, but one would think Dark has the best defence vs it. Reaper builds are just too good imo and very fustrating to play against it, although that doesnt take away the fact that zerg late game just too strong
The nerf reaper talk right now is really baffling and salty.
Seriously guys, Byun is the only Terran to win anything significant this year and besides him and TY the terran representation in tournaments have been so low it wasn't even funny.
So just because Byun uses Reaper aggression to their fullest capability, so now it is time to nerf them?
So i guess we should just remove terran from the game then. Like some have already stated, if terran don't do any early damage, they are pretty much screwed once they go into late game. And most of the time they don't, because not all terrans can do as much early damage as Byun.
Just because Byun is OP, doesn't mean Terran is op. Alrite reaper might be op in his hands but if no other alternatives are given and blizzard just nerf them because of 1 finals, we are NOT going to see any terran next year.
On November 06 2016 21:17 Kaizor wrote: The nerf reaper talk right now is really baffling and salty.
Seriously guys, Byun is the only Terran to win anything significant this year and besides him and TY the terran representation in tournaments have been so low it wasn't even funny.
So just because Byun uses Reaper aggression to their fullest capability, so now it is time to nerf them?
So i guess we should just remove terran from the game then. Like some have already stated, if terran don't do any early damage, they are pretty much screwed once they go into late game. And most of the time they don't, because not all terrans can do as much early damage as Byun.
Just because Byun is OP, doesn't mean Terran is op. Alrite reaper might be op in his hands but if no other alternatives are given and blizzard just nerf them because of 1 finals, we are NOT going to see any terran next year.
Its not about terran OP or not, I main terran and think T is pretty shit at the moment. But the reaper grenade is just fustrating to play against when reapers are massed. Just look at tvt, its always reapers / reaper-hellion wars, or u just die to reapers
On November 06 2016 21:17 Kaizor wrote: The nerf reaper talk right now is really baffling and salty.
Seriously guys, Byun is the only Terran to win anything significant this year and besides him and TY the terran representation in tournaments have been so low it wasn't even funny.
So just because Byun uses Reaper aggression to their fullest capability, so now it is time to nerf them?
So i guess we should just remove terran from the game then. Like some have already stated, if terran don't do any early damage, they are pretty much screwed once they go into late game. And most of the time they don't, because not all terrans can do as much early damage as Byun.
Just because Byun is OP, doesn't mean Terran is op. Alrite reaper might be op in his hands but if no other alternatives are given and blizzard just nerf them because of 1 finals, we are NOT going to see any terran next year.
Its not about terran OP or not, I main terran and think T is pretty shit at the moment. But the reaper grenade is just fustrating to play against when reapers are massed. Just look at tvt, its always reapers / reaper-hellion wars, or u just die to reapers
Yes i agree with the frustrating part but blizzard needs to give terran other options first.
I don't understand how anyone could consider any game besides game 5 even half way decent. The only other game Dark won was by exploiting Zerg's lategame strength and ByuN's inability to get ghosts. On the other hand, the majority of the games ByuN won were over by the 5 minute mark. The Reaper is a unit that's gotten better with every expansion whereas units like the Infestor just get worse. It's easy to see Blizzard vision of how a game of Starcraft "should" be played is reflected in the way they've handled those two units in particular.
On November 06 2016 10:36 Aegwynn wrote: To be honest i was already expecting a Byun victory like 4-2 or 4-3 but still it was a disappointing series for me except the game 5. Byun played super good obviously but Reaper Granades killed all the joy and caused insta finished one sided games.Wish they just remove it, it doesn't contribute anything positive to the game.
yeah ... reaper grenades rob players and viewers of games such as game 5 (sejong). in my opinion, early game reaper vs queen is boring as fuck to watch and i see no reason why one wouldn't allow further emphasis on the fantastic midgame ... same with HOTS ZvT, matches like INnoVation vs Life that just ended with hellbat timing shreking a 2base muta build after hellbats were brought in to 'spice things up'.
i just don't understand why we're getting these early games when midgame is so great to play and watch. quick games can be 'fun' and 'belong in a series' but it could've been so much more. imo we're not in a hurry to finish up a series quickly, so i wish games like Frozen temple and Frost could've been replaced with more than what they are today. hoping someone understands what i mean because it's a bit tricky - reapers simply scale too well and don't become irrelevant quickly enough, or they're just flat out too slippery and strong, even dark setting up surrounds didn't do anything because reaper explosion just destroys lings ...
i'm so happy about aegwynns comment here because i feel rather strongly about the same topic both as a viewer and player
The core idea is that not a single unit ever becomes irrelevant. As a matter of fact there is not a single unit in Starcraft 2 that scales as well as the Zergling.
If it weren't for the fact that Zerg gets completely out of hand if you leave them in peace for even 2 minutes games could be a lot longer. In the lategame Zerg is heavily favoured so it makes sense that Terran strategies will revolve around closing out games quickly.
On November 06 2016 19:11 LuckyGnomTV wrote: I'm happy for ByuN. I remember his great super long only ghost games against protosses and I liked it!
But at the same time it is sad to see what happened to sc2. Just think about it, finals of the most important tournament of the year is ByuN vs Dark.. wtf is this? Code a qualifiers? What did you do with the game so people like Jaedong, Flash, Mvp retired and people like Zest, sOs, Maru have not enought interest in a game to work their ass off whole year?
What an odd thing to say.
Mvp retired cause he's broken, Flash and JD had middling success at SC2 and went back to the game they are far better/more popular in. Zest made it further in Blizzcon than he ever has, Maru sucks nuts and sOs only wins every 2nd year.
22-4 in Proleague equals sucking nuts.................
It was the perfect final on paper, but once the games started it proved to be far less than that.
so much more fun to see a long time veteran win the championship rather than some new phenom. every one always loves the old-man championship contender eeking 1 last year out of their aging body. unless you're tom brady of course.
Quality of of the games, though hyped as fk by tastosis, is so low. The guy won this game did 99% of the aggression in the game. If it is a battle, it should be like both have the equivalent set of weapons and engage and defend comparably. Like one held a sword in his left hand and a shield in his right. In these games I saw terran always has the offensive upper hand, and zerg is always on the defense thought out the game. it is frustrating to watch, even in g5, the terren lost the game pretty much without any home ground defense. It like he swings his big sword till the sword is torn blunt after cutting too much bones.
Well everyone is mad about reapers but the truth is that Dark messed up on last game:
1- A really bad scoot
2- He could have get all the reapers when he did the surround but he didn't leave any speedlings on top of the edge. I mean that was obvious reaper would jump here.
3- Dark missplay shouldn't be the reason Reapers should be nerfed.
Talking about nerfing reapers now is pointless. We've had over a year to do that. There'll a new design patch soon that will change the game drastically (if all the proposed changes are included).
On November 06 2016 22:28 a4bisu wrote: Quality of of the games, though hyped as fk by tastosis, is so low. The guy won this game did 99% of the aggression in the game. If it is a battle, it should be like both have the equivalent set of weapons and engage and defend comparably. Like one held a sword in his left hand and a shield in his right. In these games I saw terran always has the offensive upper hand, and zerg is always on the defense thought out the game. it is frustrating to watch, even in g5, the terren lost the game pretty much without any home ground defense. It like he swings his big sword till the sword is torn blunt after cutting too much bones.
I think we saw the same games, it is just boring to see the same every game, and it is that way because the design of the races, all the games that Byun won were over pretty fast, it doesnt matter if the casters believe that we are blind.
While the Game felt as alive as never before for me during the finals, I feel quite dead now after reading through this thread.
What the fuck makes people use a news about a Player winning for other than gratz/maybe discussing details of how the games went?
If you are really convinced something is wrong with balance there are many places to discuss that without spitting toxin on everybody else's experience after these finals here on TL. Frankly, you might even get heard if you express thought-out criticism in dedicated balance threads.
All the best and much respect to Byun and Dark, the Gods of Starcraft Universe 2016!
Well Zerg never had early game harrasment options. Never. Wall denied everything. Now we have overlord drops but still its nothing compared to wide spectrum of Terran or Tosss harras. I would be fine with that if Blizzard wouldn't nerf Zergs macro by 25% in LOTV. You all criticize Zergs that they turtle to hive tech as it was their choice. The fact is that Zerg has no midgame. If they don't turtle- they die.
On November 07 2016 00:14 hiroshOne wrote: Well Zerg never had early game harrasment options. Never. Wall denied everything. Now we have overlord drops but still its nothing compared to wide spectrum of Terran or Tosss harras. I would be fine with that if Blizzard wouldn't nerf Zergs macro by 25% in LOTV. You all criticize Zergs that they turtle to hive tech as it was their choice. The fact is that Zerg has no midgame. If they don't turtle- they die.
mutalisk harassment was widely popular at many points of sc2's history.
zerg never had any real all ins, but terran didn'T ahve them either, only protoss always ahd great tools to end games quick.
On November 07 2016 00:14 hiroshOne wrote: Well Zerg never had early game harrasment options. Never. Wall denied everything. Now we have overlord drops but still its nothing compared to wide spectrum of Terran or Tosss harras. I would be fine with that if Blizzard wouldn't nerf Zergs macro by 25% in LOTV. You all criticize Zergs that they turtle to hive tech as it was their choice. The fact is that Zerg has no midgame. If they don't turtle- they die.
mutalisk harassment was widely popular at many points of sc2's history.
zerg never had any real all ins, but terran didn'T ahve them either, only protoss always ahd great tools to end games quick.
I said EARLY game harrasment. Since when Mutas come inti play in early game?
On November 07 2016 00:14 hiroshOne wrote: Well Zerg never had early game harrasment options. Never. Wall denied everything. Now we have overlord drops but still its nothing compared to wide spectrum of Terran or Tosss harras. I would be fine with that if Blizzard wouldn't nerf Zergs macro by 25% in LOTV. You all criticize Zergs that they turtle to hive tech as it was their choice. The fact is that Zerg has no midgame. If they don't turtle- they die.
mutalisk harassment was widely popular at many points of sc2's history.
zerg never had any real all ins, but terran didn'T ahve them either, only protoss always ahd great tools to end games quick.
I said EARLY game harrasment. Since when Mutas come inti play in early game?
well, terran has had nothing in terms of early game harass for the longest time either then if you see mutas as not early game (i personally see both mutas and the hellbat drops of old as the transition from early game into midgame, so they are still early game harass in ym books).
On November 06 2016 22:51 wjat wrote: Well everyone is mad about reapers but the truth is that Dark messed up on last game:
1- A really bad scoot
2- He could have get all the reapers when he did the surround but he didn't leave any speedlings on top of the edge. I mean that was obvious reaper would jump here.
3- Dark missplay shouldn't be the reason Reapers should be nerfed.
1-He scouted everythng, what do you even mean? 2-Just like most scenarios in sc2, attacking is easier than defending. 3-Dark didn't missplay, infact he played perfectly in Frozen Temple but still lost (no he didn't lose with the all-in, he already lost the game because he couldn't take a 3rd or drone)
I am sorry can you show me a good respond to a 3 rax reaper in a high level ZvT? If you're thinking that Byun making reapers look broken that means you didn't watch any tournament beside this blizzcon. You can call me zerg bias but i really enjoyed last years final even though Life lost. This final was the worst of all time by far, even game 5 couldn't save it. This Blizzcon overall was the worst one, all of the series were one sided stomps, we didn't have a fun head to head series at all. The game looks in a really bad shape, i hope they do even more frequent marginal changes like the next patch we will have.
On November 06 2016 22:51 wjat wrote: Well everyone is mad about reapers but the truth is that Dark messed up on last game:
1- A really bad scoot
2- He could have get all the reapers when he did the surround but he didn't leave any speedlings on top of the edge. I mean that was obvious reaper would jump here.
3- Dark missplay shouldn't be the reason Reapers should be nerfed.
1-He scouted everythng, what do you even mean? 2-Just like most scenarios in sc2, attacking is easier than defending. 3-Dark didn't missplay, infact he played perfectly in Frozen Temple but still lost (no he didn't lose with the all-in, he already lost the game because he couldn't take a 3rd or drone)
I am sorry can you show me a good respond to a 3 rax reaper in a high level ZvT? If you're thinking that Byun making reapers look broken that means you didn't watch any tournament beside this blizzcon. You can call me zerg bias but i really enjoyed last years final even though Life lost. This final was the worst of all time by far, even game 5 couldn't save it. This Blizzcon overall was the worst one, all of the series were one sided stomps, we didn't have a fun head to head series at all. The game looks in a really bad shape, i hope they do even more frequent marginal changes like the next patch we will have.
i haven't followed sc2 a lot this year, but terran barely competed outside of byun or rarely ty, so i think it is safe to assume that reapers aren't a guaranteed win vs zerg, that something can be done or that byun is simply so much better than anyone else he makes them work.
On November 06 2016 22:51 wjat wrote: Well everyone is mad about reapers but the truth is that Dark messed up on last game:
1- A really bad scoot
2- He could have get all the reapers when he did the surround but he didn't leave any speedlings on top of the edge. I mean that was obvious reaper would jump here.
3- Dark missplay shouldn't be the reason Reapers should be nerfed.
1-He scouted everythng, what do you even mean? 2-Just like most scenarios in sc2, attacking is easier than defending. 3-Dark didn't missplay, infact he played perfectly in Frozen Temple but still lost (no he didn't lose with the all-in, he already lost the game because he couldn't take a 3rd or drone)
I am sorry can you show me a good respond to a 3 rax reaper in a high level ZvT? If you're thinking that Byun making reapers look broken that means you didn't watch any tournament beside this blizzcon. You can call me zerg bias but i really enjoyed last years final even though Life lost. This final was the worst of all time by far, even game 5 couldn't save it. This Blizzcon overall was the worst one, all of the series were one sided stomps, we didn't have a fun head to head series at all. The game looks in a really bad shape, i hope they do even more frequent marginal changes like the next patch we will have.
i haven't followed sc2 a lot this year, but terran barely competed outside of byun or rarely ty, so i think it is safe to assume that reapers aren't a guaranteed win vs zerg, that something can be done or that byun is simply so much better than anyone else he makes them work.
I don't know the statistics, i believe TvZ was terran favored while TvP is Protoss favored this season. 3 rax reaper is broken on only 2 maps, considering most series done as bo3, those maps usually get vetoed. And we don't see reapers other than scouting purpose in other maps, so what is the point of granades? To mass it on some maps? Why they exist? Anyway, problem isn't the overall balance, which can be balanced eventually. Its just frustrating to play and spectate. It just ruined many games throughout this year and eventually the most hyped grandfinal ever shadowed by game ending harrass.
On November 06 2016 22:51 wjat wrote: Well everyone is mad about reapers but the truth is that Dark messed up on last game:
1- A really bad scoot
2- He could have get all the reapers when he did the surround but he didn't leave any speedlings on top of the edge. I mean that was obvious reaper would jump here.
3- Dark missplay shouldn't be the reason Reapers should be nerfed.
1-He scouted everythng, what do you even mean? 2-Just like most scenarios in sc2, attacking is easier than defending. 3-Dark didn't missplay, infact he played perfectly in Frozen Temple but still lost (no he didn't lose with the all-in, he already lost the game because he couldn't take a 3rd or drone)
I am sorry can you show me a good respond to a 3 rax reaper in a high level ZvT? If you're thinking that Byun making reapers look broken that means you didn't watch any tournament beside this blizzcon. You can call me zerg bias but i really enjoyed last years final even though Life lost. This final was the worst of all time by far, even game 5 couldn't save it. This Blizzcon overall was the worst one, all of the series were one sided stomps, we didn't have a fun head to head series at all. The game looks in a really bad shape, i hope they do even more frequent marginal changes like the next patch we will have.
i haven't followed sc2 a lot this year, but terran barely competed outside of byun or rarely ty, so i think it is safe to assume that reapers aren't a guaranteed win vs zerg, that something can be done or that byun is simply so much better than anyone else he makes them work.
I don't know the statistics, i believe TvZ was terran favored while TvP is Protoss favored this season.
This is the worse thing to say. It's like trump saying, i don't know whats wrong with america but i believe muslims/mexicans are the main problem.
Statistics are important, you cannot just claim something is true because you believe it.
Aligulac records for individual races are down at the moment so i can't pull that out but everyone knows that terran representation this year has been abysmal to say the least.
How many top terrans had decent results in individual tournaments this year besides TY and Byun? Maybe Ryung? Compared to the vast majority of protosses and zergs we have in tournaments in EU and Korea.
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
It's saddening to see the state of the community currently. I've been on teamliquid since 2002/2003, and I watched the OSL/MSL/Proleague games since BW almost religiously. Although I think there are plenty of problems with LOTV, I thought these finals fantastic. Byun vs TY and Byun vs Dark produced some high level TvTs and TvZs.
Kaizor thank you for bringing a degree of logic that was clearly missing in this thread lol. I'm kind of amazed how quickly one match results devolves into "X race or Y unit is overpowered. NERF IMMEDIATELY." I'm not sure how you can make the argument that terran is overpowered given they've consistently won less tournaments and have been underrepresented often as well.
Man if Boxer existed in this era, he would have gotten trashed. So sad to see people so divided over favorite players and races, and can't even enjoy the the game.
On a quick note, I would like to bring some positivity to the thread, and say that it was AWESOME seeing around 100k people in the main SC2 stream ALONE. I remember watching Life vs SOS with the stream having around 60k (if I remember correctly). Glad to see the wonderful support from the community, as well as the stream count getting higher as the stream went on. Seemed a lot of people were enjoying a great finals.
On November 07 2016 01:29 Crovear wrote: It took 8 pages to take this "discussion" factual, objective and to the core of things. We have to nerf Byun
It´s the same strategy Uthermal has used a lot to dominate players like Snute. TvZ is not broken but stupid. Terran dominates early-mid game and z dominates lategame.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
I think you can get away with the grenade if you reduce the gas cost of reapers from 50 to 25, in HotS it made sense, since you could get reapers before any counter unit, but in LotV by the time they get to the enemy base they have like 5 secods before a adept/hellion/queen its out and then they become useless.
50/50 for 1 supply is actually super expensive, the only units that are so expensive per supply are casters (ravens/HT/sentries/vipers/etc)
It doesn't seem as expensive since the 12 worker start. You get 16 on minerals so fast even taking gas.
I was actually going to joke about Byun getting Reapers nerfed like Mvp got ghosts nerfed, but it seems less like a joke now.
I think it's worth noting that both Dark and Byun played all matchups in the quarters, semis and finals. That addresses the 'bracket luck' point somewhat.
On November 07 2016 01:29 Crovear wrote: It took 8 pages to take this "discussion" factual, objective and to the core of things. We have to nerf Byun
It´s the same strategy Uthermal has used a lot to dominate players like Snute. TvZ is not broken but stupid. Terran dominates early-mid game and z dominates lategame.
terran is hardest to master, even if number of terran trophies screams about it, only who play each race long enough can understand.
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
Thanks a lot for actually getting the facts in. Sad thing is, poeple still will believe the two to three individual events they can remember (where e.g. Terran won with Reapers) mean the world. It's the same thing like talking to people claiming foreigners are more criminal and vaccines causing autism. Sigh.
Still, I'm so happy to have whitnessed live what I believe to be the best Starcraft 2 match of all time. To elaborate briefly, I mean it was the best all aspects considered (even though the raw quality of game five was also the best ive seen ever).
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 54 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 54 vs 46 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. These figures indicate equally skilled T will win more then 80% of bo 7 TvP mathes.
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation.
he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part.
also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation.
he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part. meanwhile the blink era was domination for many, many months (like 6 months i think?), which isn't comparable in any way.
also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation.
he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part.
also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
He didn't. Here is exact quote: "So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ."
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 54 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 54 vs 46 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. These figures indicate equally skilled T will win more then 80% of bo 7 TvP mathes.
I may be interpreting your post wrong, but are you referring to the 56% in September? If so, it's one month and he specifically said it was one of the two months of the year where one race had a significant advantage over the other. How is that extremely biased interpretation? Pardon in advance if that wasn't what you were referring to.
Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon. We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff? If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
Anyone claiming that Byun won because of imbalance is really stretching the bounds of credulity, given the above.
Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me.
For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows:
TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86%
So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ.
And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year.
So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone.
He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up.
According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another.
For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%.
And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year,
Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6.
Out of the 24 Major tournaments,
Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6.
So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race.
*adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible).
And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented.
GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation.
he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part.
also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
He didn't. Here is exact quote: "So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ."
I think you're comparing two different things. That quote is the YTD PvT % numbers. The 56% is the TvP rate in September. Two different rates and commentaries for each.
On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote: Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon. We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff? If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
Actually, throwing statistics is miles more userfull than your post.
Also, according to my experience, when user note some problem, he is usually right. But when he offers solution, he is usually wrong.
On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote: Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon. We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff? If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
So let me get this straight:
It's correct to scream imbalance after 1 match in which a Terran beats a Zerg (with the argument being primarily because of early game reapers).
But it's incorrect to bring in the yearly statistics showing that vs % rates are extremely close, and that Zerg have won more tournaments and been far more represented in tournaments throughout the year?
Furthermore, by the same token, why would it be wrong to bring in ultras OP QQ comments? Wouldn't the otherside be allowed the same courtesy of saying that late game ZvT is broken in favor or zerg and something needs to be done about it?
On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote: Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon. We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff? If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
So let me get this straight:
It's correct to scream imbalance after 1 match in which a Terran beats a Zerg (with the argument being primarily because of early game reapers).
But it's incorrect to bring in the yearly statistics showing that vs % rates are extremely close, and that Zerg have won more tournaments and been far more represented in tournaments throughout the year?
Nobody screamed imbalance, Byun probably would win the series anyway but at least it could be a fun series. As soon as Byun puts down the 2nd rax we all gonna know what will happen in the next minutes and the game will finish, there is no avoiding that or no counterplay exist. That is a problem. I personally no have problems vs 3 rax in my ladder games but it is so frustrating as a spectator. At least for me. Its ok if you enjoy jumping units around just because terran is winning.
You know what's also "not fun"? Watching a zerg turtle behind a great wall of queens, deflect any aggression, and roll their hive deathball to victory.
Yet somehow reaper openings are the real problem in the match up. Please.
I wonder how many of those " omg it was the best finals ever" would say same thing if Dark was the winner haha. I bet that we would hear the sound of cry over ultras being op and other stuff. I like how they pose now on being calm and all about skill, not balance.
To those who claim that Terran was underrrepresented in 2016. Just look how many Zergs died in Kore. Remember race distribution in Code S? Even in Proleague coaches would rather send Protoss or Terran to battle, not risking Zerg player. In Europe we always lacked of good, consistant Terran players and that''s the fact.
The problem of ZvT is not even in units but in economy model of LOTV and macro nerfs. Mules and 12 workers at the start synergies so well for Terran because BIO is almost purely based on mineral mining. On the other hand Zerg depends on gas to defend mass bio pushes and with macro nerfed over 25% they choose to turtle to strong hive units just because if they don't- they will never be cost effective in midgame and die.
For example yesterday Dark had 74 workers and Byun only 50 and still Byun mined more minerals and had free 20 supply for his army. Well go figure.
Lotv eco and macro changes. Simple as that. That's also the reason why Protoss dominates most of Terrans, because even mules cannot compete with constant chrono boost on nexuses and pylons shooting as free defence.
On November 07 2016 03:03 Athenau wrote: You know what's also "not fun"? Watching a zerg turtle behind a great wall of queens, deflect any aggression, and roll their hive deathball to victory.
Yet somehow reaper openings are the real problem in the match up. Please.
Why can´t they both be a problem? Reapers are a problem because terran has a huge advantage early-midgame and Z lategame is a problem because Z has the advantage. This dynamic makes for some shitty games.
On November 07 2016 03:03 Athenau wrote: You know what's also "not fun"? Watching a zerg turtle behind a great wall of queens, deflect any aggression, and roll their hive deathball to victory.
Yet somehow reaper openings are the real problem in the match up. Please.
I wonder based on what facts u think that Zerg players like the current state of TvZ. We turtle because the only other option is some kind of early allinn. I hate current ZvT and i really hope that it will change. I have nothing against nerfing Zergs lategame but i want midgame buff instead.
To those who claim that Terran was underrrepresented in 2016.
It's a fact, not a claim. Terran was underrepresented in 2016, as measured by tournament wins and runner-up placements.
Just look how many Zergs died in Kore. Remember race distribution in Code S? Even in Proleague coaches would rather send Protoss or Terran to battle, not risking Zerg player.
Zergs won two of the four Korean leagues this year, and won both cross-finals. They had one weak showing in GSL season 2, and as a result got buffed. I don't know how you can claim with a straight face that zerg is doing poorly.
On November 07 2016 03:08 hiroshOne wrote: I wonder how many of those " omg it was the best finals ever" would say same thing if Dark was the winner haha. I bet that we would hear the sound of cry over ultras being op and other stuff. I like how they pose now on being calm and all about skill, not balance.
To those who claim that Terran was underrrepresented in 2016. Just look how many Zergs died in Kore. Remember race distribution in Code S? Even in Proleague coaches would rather send Protoss or Terran to battle, not risking Zerg player. In Europe we always lacked of good, consistant Terran players and that''s the fact.
The problem of ZvT is not even in units but in economy model of LOTV and macro nerfs. Mules and 12 workers at the start synergies so well for Terran because BIO is almost purely based on mineral mining. On the other hand Zerg depends on gas to defend mass bio pushes and with macro nerfed over 25% they choose to turtle to strong hive units just because if they don't- they will never be cost effective in midgame and die.
For example yesterday Dark had 74 workers and Byun only 50 and still Byun mined more minerals and had free 20 supply for his army. Well go figure.
Lotv eco and macro changes. Simple as that. That's also the reason why Protoss dominates most of Terrans, because even mules cannot compete with constant chrono boost on nexuses and pylons shooting as free defence.
"That's also the reason why Protoss dominates most of Terrans, because even mules cannot compete with constant chrono boost on nexuses and pylons shooting as free defence."
This. You dream up some questionable, at least, fact and then trying to prove it with even more questionable argument. Terran have a great LEAD in TvP since LOTV. Face this. Check aligulac. Or please, give any reason to treat you argument other than pure fantasy. List of protoss underdogs shredding terran in premier tournamets of 5 samples would be exactly what is needed.
On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote: Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon. We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff? If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
So let me get this straight:
It's correct to scream imbalance after 1 match in which a Terran beats a Zerg (with the argument being primarily because of early game reapers).
But it's incorrect to bring in the yearly statistics showing that vs % rates are extremely close, and that Zerg have won more tournaments and been far more represented in tournaments throughout the year?
Nobody screamed imbalance, Byun probably would win the series anyway but at least it could be a fun series. As soon as Byun puts down the 2nd rax we all gonna know what will happen in the next minutes and the game will finish, there is no avoiding that or no counterplay exist. That is a problem. I personally no have problems vs 3 rax in my ladder games but it is so frustrating as a spectator. At least for me. Its ok if you enjoy jumping units around just because terran is winning.
I am with you ! The reaper is supposed to be a scouting unit and not a gg unit. We also have to look at the games - I think Dark went 2-3 times for pool before hatch, should be the perfect opening to hold reaper abuse - IT WAS NOT. Reapers are just to strong in the early game.
Even if u defend mass reapers u're still in death animation because it sets u so behind that u die from follow up. Every game Byun played mass reapers , at the end of the harras he had more workers than Dark and third on the way. That's why its broken. U cannot defend it effectively even with perfect counter opening. Dark did his best and still was dead.
Earlier in this thread was a video showcasing Dark's suboptimal queen micro. So, for me it is not zergs lacking tools to stop reapers, it was Byun using his tools way more efficient. And "IT IS EASIER TO USE REAPERS THAN TO DEFEND AGAINST THEM" whining are completely out of sanity.
Even if u defend mass reapers u're still in death animation because it sets u so behind that u die from follow up. Every game Byun played mass reapers , at the end of the harras he had more workers than Dark and third on the way. That's why its broken. U cannot defend it effectively even with perfect counter opening. Dark did his best and still was dead.
ByuN's reaper control is not something that should be taken into consideration when talking about balance or the entire bio army should be nerfed. Roaches are supposed to counter reapers, banelings are supposed to counter bio,and for the most of us it's working as intended; but that all changes when facing the best micro in the world.
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages. Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out. Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
BTW even when outplayed Dark wasn't dead, he was behind. Then Byun capitalizing his advantage with precise tactics, superb unit position and control and hyperthread-like multitasking. I want to ask you, how on earth do you want terran win against zerg so you will be glad to see it?
On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote: Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages. Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out. Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
This is not a fact, this is pure assumption. 3 rax reaper was there since HOTS, maybe even earlier so how do you think Byun's championship will boost all other terrans skill to make them win more tournaments?
On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z. Boiling it down to he had better micro is not factoring how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up. The whole thing s that even with great defense Z ends up behind.
On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z. Boiling it down to he had better micro is not factoring how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up. The whole thing s that even with great defense Z ends up behind.
"I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z." No it is not cleat, it is only your opinion, unargumented. Terran clearly haven't advantage against zerg in LOTV at all.
" how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up." This is, again, unargumented opinion. Zerg have enough tools to stay on top of terran, if using them ON TOP WITH TERRAN. Dark used his tools worse and therefore lost. Why am i sure?
At first, a lot of terran use 3 rax reaper at all levels, this is popular build, but almost nobody could make it work against similar skilled opponent.
At second, in those particular games Byun clearly outmicroed Dark. Like Dark's queens wasn't shooting at reaper because byun moved it in and out of range while Dark just ordered move command on queen and wasn't fast enough to react. In game queen ended up with low health, then second reaper appeared and low - health queen was unable to provide cover fire to lings, so reaper had free time shooting lings kill one or two more then Dark should loose. Complicated? Yes. Hard to notice? Very. Because of 3 rax reaper is very BALANCED opening with very tight fights, where even slight advantage do matter.
On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z. Boiling it down to he had better micro is not factoring how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up. The whole thing s that even with great defense Z ends up behind.
"I would say that it is clear who has the better weapons at hand in reaper vs. early Z." No it is not cleat, it is only your opinion, unargumented. Terran clearly haven't advantage against zerg in LOTV at all.
" how little the Z has to work with if the opponent does not screw up." This is, again, unargumented opinion. Zerg have enough tools to stay on top of terran, if using them ON TOP WITH TERRAN. Dark used his tools worse and therefore lost. Why am i sure?
At first, a lot of terran use 3 rax reaper at all levels, this is popular build, but almost nobody could make it work against similar skilled opponent.
At second, in those particular games Byun clearly outmicroed Dark. Like Dark's queens wasn't shooting at reaper because byun moved it in and out of range while Dark just ordered move command on queen and wasn't fast enough to react. In game queen ended up with low health, then second reaper appeared and low - health queen was unable to provide cover fire to lings, so reaper had free time shooting lings kill one or two more then Dark should loose. Complicated? Yes. Hard to notice? Very. But nothing to do with balance.
Attacking unargumented statement with the same kind of non argument I think it is pretty simple to see that T has better weapons at hand. Reapers have incredible healing, grenades that screw your opponents position and kill larvae, normal attack, cliff jumping and can be massed early on. Zerg has really slow queens and slow lings at start. Also i have seen Uthermal easily defeat Snute 3-0 going 3-rax reaper every time.
On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
BTW even when outplayed Dark wasn't dead, he was behind. Then Byun capitalizing his advantage with precise tactics, superb unit position and control and hyperthread-like multitasking. I want to ask you, how on earth do you want terran win against zerg so you will be glad to see it?
On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote: Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages. Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out. Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
This is not a fact, this is pure assumption. 3 rax reaper was there since HOTS, maybe even earlier so how do you think Byun's championship will boost all other terrans skill to make them win more tournaments?
Is this not what i wrote? I'll quote myself then: "even if u don't die from this instant u are so behind thst u die from follow up attack" That's what happened in those games. And Xerg my good sir has no comeback mechanics like fucking mules.
And 3 racks reapers in HOTS?Are u fucking kidding me? Since when?
Again. On the highest level of play where u can assume best micro and macro, no mechanic mistakes- mass reaper opening is imba. Even if u don't damage mineral line straight with reapers, u force so much reaction- units from Zergg, kill larva with freaking granades that Zerg cannot come back from this. So Zerg is forced to make some retarded allin as we saw in Dark vs Byun series or just die from follow up attack as he has no eco and production to stop it.
It's obvious that u never been even close to understand how Zerg works. So i have no hope that u would understand what i just wrote. Every gm zerg i know, and i know a few- will tell u the same.
On November 07 2016 06:02 showstealer1829 wrote: Reading this thread that's supposed to congratulate ByuN be like
Are you surprised? In this community no one can win without being called out for racial imbalance.
I'm a little surprised by it honestly. I'm more disappointed that the centerpiece in it is a badly thought out all in by Dark.
I don't know. I do not like ZvT. I think it is a badly designed match up and it isn't fun to play, and I enjoy watching it as a tradition rather than because it's entertaining. It annoys and stresses me even as a viewer.
I'd love to see it get shaken up but the reaper is small stuff. The entire dynamic, from Terrans complaining about late game to Zergs complaining about everything except the late game, is not where it should be.
Just finished watching all 6 of the games and I can just say Byun's pretty much brought micro to a new level.
I really don't give two fucks about the community's consensus about the "matchup quality" or some shit, Byun exhibited absolutely amazing micro in all 6 games and may be the first sc2 player to actually reach this kind of standard in his control.
Like a reason for SC:BW frequently being cited as better than SC2 is because of sc2's micro being much too difficult- you can control so many units and they die so fast, it's difficult for people to hit the skill ceiling and be the best player.
Yet if everyone could control like Byun, where it seems like there is a team of pro dota players controlling every single individual unit in his army, sc2 could show the its epic true potential.
I am disgusted that all these zergs are only here to talk imbalance- as a protoss I have no stake in the matchup, and I think Byun was by far the most deserving player at this entire event, pretty much bullying every single player out of his matches.
Congrats Byun, and if Sc2 really were to diminish, I am happy that its supernova was to be such a transcendentally skilled player.
On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote: Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages. Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out. Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote: Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages. Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out. Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
Ask any top Terran or top Zerg whose position they would favor if Dark were to try to macro up from that point. I bet they'll all favor ByuN's position.
Honestly people there are ways as Zerg to hold all in reaper builds. I remember watching copa de America and the casters were talking about how scarlet can't lose to three rax because she practiced with byun enough to figure out the perfect deffense+ counter push using a reactive roach warren. Counterplay exists but if you arnt playing against the very best reaper player in the world your probably are not forced to develop it. Dark is good enough against any one else he probably survives this build. But because of that he does not know a safer response when byun executes it. Byun reapers are just not the same as other reapers.
Also the argument that Terran needs strong allins/ pressure is very relevant despite what people are saying. Except on very linear or choky maps Terran has almost no shot in the late game vs Zerg. So for the game to be fair Terran needs a reasonable chance to kill Zerg before they get there. If Terran does not have strong builds to kill Zerg before they get there than Terran losses by default on most maps. Terran needs builds that when they out micro and outplay there oponent, like byun did end the game. Otherwise it's unfair and you get wol Terran that just has to wait till the inevitable gg broodlord push. At least Terran right now is more like wol toss where you have strong Allin timings that if they do enough damage your oponent can't get to the gg army.
I would also remond you that Zerg also has many strong Allin options that often end games, dark just chose not to go with them because they have the potential to be hard countered, just like 3 rax. Most zergs simply shy away from Allin play because why take risks when you have a clock that ends the game?
On November 06 2016 16:30 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: This is my first time ever posting on here, but I felt compelled to after reading a lot of these post..
The Sc2 community I feel is silly sometimes. The player who CLEARLY has the best SKILLS won. Not the best build order, or some op comp like Broodlord infestor, or swarm host nonsense. And people have the BALLS to try to blame Byuns win on a build order? He's as Artosis has described him,THE BEST REAPER PLAYER IN THE WORLD. And this is SKILL BASED, MICRO BASED, HOW THE HELL IS IT A BUILD ORDER THING? I really feel like you take away adepts and a lot of Protoss just straight up don't know how to play. Case in point is how they favored adept builds over the more micro intensive stalker disruptor play.
No banshees, hellions, cyclones, and after the queen buff, liberators in the early game really. So what's left? The Byun build, ( which he also executes better than anyone else, just look at the Violet games, or Byuns win over Dark in the GSL where he snipes all the banes... Was that op too?) or three rax reapers. Dark was one of the first zergs I saw who rushed a roach warren and then got an early ravager to push reaper builds back. SLOW THE GODDAMN GAME DOWN!!!!! Stop trying to rush to Ultras every damn game ASAP. And I mostly played Zerg in my time.
Byun did that Medi-vac build iN EVERY game practically in SSL, Dark SHOULD HAVE HAD AN ANSWER FOR IT GOOD LORD, how many games were available to study? 100? Easy. Maybe 300 lol...
If the build is so strong why only TWO terrans at blizzcon and SEVEN GODDAMN ZERGS? Did TY do it even ONCE at Blizzconn? Did Maru do it to Nerchio at Kespa cup?
Take Byuns Dear GSL semis, where Byun goes cloak Banshees. That wasn't a " build" , you can't just GO banshees and expect it to work, that was a strat, based on the meta of banshees being useless vs stargate openings, and toss going warp prism first, therefore being unprepared vs a cloak tech cause they have no detection.That's a GodDamn STRATEGY!!!!
The community loves builds, anyone can replicate some build. But what Byun does, very few can, and I feel like people don't like it when the game is more micro oriented, you can't just study and replicate the play. Seriously' mass banes still kill Terrans easily, why didn't we see that?
Or it's like when Showtime surprises Byun by actually making a support unit and using it correctly. Byun might have played 100 straight games vs build order toss players who NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED MAKING A COLOSSI, of course he's gonna be taken aback.
The Terran scene in Korea was SO STRONG THIS YEAR, yet only 2 at Blizzcon, still all this whining, Goddamn SHM
preach. the reapers can be easily scouted and handled
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Honestly, when every single of Bronze league ~ Diamond league terrans micro reapers, they just die by pure a-moving speedlings. so these level players have 0 idea how 3 rax build is so crucial in TvZ in highest level. No offense, but this is true, if you are not high enough player, then you don't even know what's going on in pro level.
but even when tier 1 (maybe 2 as well) Master~GM terrans micro reapers against same lvl zergs, which is higher level of micro and macro from both side, even roaches die by grenades with reaper shoting easily, no matter how same level zerg player split and dodge well against grenades, cuz zerg units can't simply do moving shot like terran bio units. Zerg will be forced to make ravagers which is only counter to reapers with grenades in high level, and as workers have to mine gas, zerg is forced to stay in 2 base, And after zerg got delayed 3rd by those reapers harass, then zerg get so poor eco from start, and they cannot even counter attack because of those grenades especially in highest level when someone like ByuN use it, and meanwhile, terran still can get tech, and 3 CC soon with MULES and sit back for rich eco and prepare to crush zerg in early-mid game. (which is why Dark had much lower supply compared to ByuN in early-mid games where ByuN used 3 rax reaper build.) all players in master/gm league know it is extremely hard to come back for zerg when zerg start with so poor eco against terran or protoss.
I am not even zerg main player, and I don't play this game much anymore, I am not a good player, I am actually a Random player in master league who play games sometimes just for fun. But, I really think the grenades from terran should be fixed. The grenades are still kinda useless against protoss, and it won't matter much for low level players, and probably even for high master/low gm players like us, but when the highest pro level players like ByuN and Dark play, I really see the reapers' grenades look unfair as 3rd person's point of view seriously.(it is ByuN's micro, but the opponent was none other than Dark who has the far best ZvT from any others and same level player with ByuN) Every high level players in Korean community, ppl talking about (even terran players acknowledge reaper build is OP against zerg) how 3 rax reaper build ruined the final. Even one of 6k MMR level zerg player said 'the most epic cancer final'
But I see maps are also another problem of this build, such as Galatic, Frost, Ftemple, maps have hills everywhere in main base where reapers can go up and down freely and do grenades + shoting everywhere. But, in map like Gettys, reapers can't do efficient work cuz not much hill to move around zerg's main base. But anyway, instead of changing maps, fixing or nerfing grenades is better idea I think.
Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
Opportunity to go for a macro game you said? When zerg was forced to mine 2 gases instead of mining minerals and less workers than terran with MULES because of stopping reaper with grenades harass... You know what? if zerg goes macro game there, same level player with terran will crush you in early-mid game easily, the reason why 3 rax reaper build with grenades is OP is not only about reapers, in high level, you can't stop reapers from killing drones or units if you try to defend with pure roaches and spine, you have to make 2 gases and ravagers and start with lower workers than terran who already also have MULES, and also get delayed 3rd, unless you are much better player than terran, you will get crushed easily if you go macro game from there against terran, and this is why 3 rax reaper is OP in highest level.
On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote: Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build.
Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro?
BTW even when outplayed Dark wasn't dead, he was behind. Then Byun capitalizing his advantage with precise tactics, superb unit position and control and hyperthread-like multitasking. I want to ask you, how on earth do you want terran win against zerg so you will be glad to see it?
On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote: Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages. Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out. Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
This is not a fact, this is pure assumption. 3 rax reaper was there since HOTS, maybe even earlier so how do you think Byun's championship will boost all other terrans skill to make them win more tournaments?
On November 07 2016 02:58 Aegwynn wrote: Nobody screamed imbalance, Byun probably would win the series anyway but at least it could be a fun series. As soon as Byun puts down the 2nd rax we all gonna know what will happen in the next minutes and the game will finish, there is no avoiding that or no counterplay exist. That is a problem. I personally no have problems vs 3 rax in my ladder games but it is so frustrating as a spectator. At least for me. Its ok if you enjoy jumping units around just because terran is winning.
I think this is the best way to express it.
Both Dark and Byun played all 3 MU: Dark 3-0'd the foreigner prodigy (as TL said), and 3-0'd the Zerg that got Nerchio out of group stage in the same MU, and just beat the protoss who got out first of group stage (in the same group as Byun). Buyn played one of the best series of the whole week end against TY, and defeated a consistent monster protoss.
Both showed a damn impressive run, and in the end Byun's one was even better, hence the final victory. A big congrat to them.
Yet, I was more in awe in front of Byun-TY, than by the final, for the exact reason given in the quote.
On November 07 2016 17:49 TheHumanLife wrote: Honestly, when every single of Bronze league ~ Diamond league terrans micro reapers, they just die by pure a-moving speedlings. so these level players have 0 idea how 3 rax build is so crucial in TvZ in highest level. No offense, but this is true, if you are not high enough player, then you don't even know what's going on in pro level.
Ah ah ah.. As bad player (newly Diams T3) , I couln't agree more with what you say. When I try the 3rax reapers I die seven times on 10. My micro is not good so I want to go to mid game vs Z. But at the highest lvl, all the games I can see from the very best terran players, the 3 rax reapers looks insanely hard to counter. The problem is it is absolutly not an all in. The strat is to wall off with rax (for example on Galactic process) and take B2 and B3 during reapers harass. At the end of the early game, the T player have more bases and scv than his opponent and it is already the end. Even as Terran player, I think reaper should be nerfed. the idea to remove heal regeneration is not bad at all.
It was the best final to showcase whats still not right about Sc2. IF you have sick micro AND multitask, Terran seems OP. Every year one or two Terran rise to this level with seemingly never ending streams of MMM out of the productionbuildings like it was Autocast, while being able to perfectly controll the "Whatever the meta tells you to make" Army at the front. Byuns contribute to that stiyle are not the splits and not the Baneling focus, and not the Multidrops Thats MKP, MMA, Taeja, Polt, Squirtly and iNnovations combined play into ONE single all mighty terran. Also he seems to just KNOW when there are banelings morphing left and right (almost like FlaSh knowing when you got to snipe the probe for the 3rd Nexus ..) What Byun does best is actually his control of Medevacs, wich to be honest are not that smart.
Terran is best if played hard. Versus Zerg and Terran its a Matchup thats on the razors edge from the get go. In TvT winning and Losing is sometimes random, even on the Highest of levels, wich was undenyably Ty vs Byun you dont really know "Why" it happend. Yes you can play sloppy, forget an upgrade...and such. Thats just the other guy being better... but in this MU there is TOO MUCH dynamic. The first successfull drop almost anytime sets the attacked player on the backfoot, on the other hand you can not "sit tight" and defend, because every 2 minutes there has to be anohter base. It's too chaotic to call it strategy. Also with LotV Production "Stimmucide" Marines into Tanklines while dropping your Tanks is "good". I think its awful. With the patch comming, it will get a bit better (no medanks) but worse at the same time (Attack speed reduced, no dmg effect on light) so you just Drop the Tanks from your medevacs after Charging on your Opponents Tanks and siege them to clear up his Marines.
Byun lost basicly on KSS he ran out of MAP and there was traitor Mines that killed his own units.
To Zerg: Zerg can make use of any unit in ther arsenal. Dark decides to make Lings/Blings and Queens for the first 10 Minutes and then get some Ultras. Wow. 6 Games, 4 Units used most of the game. Thanks to LotV and Byuns ability to always poke Dark never hat the chance to Flank the Bio, or Clear reinforcments. So Dark Lings are not better than Bronze League player Lings. You cant Make more of them, without positioning
Zergs are mostly stupid. If it was not for TLO I'd lose all hope. Give them 8 Range queens, and they immedietly cross of "Mutalisk" from their minds. Give Em 8 Armor ultras and they mindlessly rush to Hive every game. Well Too bad if you have Byuns Medevac Life-Insurance, he gets 4 or 6 in his main army, and NEVER loses them while constantly trading the scummy lings and snipes the Banes simply bleeding out the Zerg. I am glad they want to buff the hydra, because zerg players always need that friendly reminder, that there is an 9 Range high dps Anti-Air unit...that kills Medevacs, and is not all too bad against MM either...
Pretty unimpressive. Perfect showcase what is going wrong. When I watch this I know why SC2 is not popular.
- Perfectly defended reapers with zero drones lost doesn't allow dark to punish the terran for his all-in in any way.
- Ongoing fights of non-microable melee units on the defenders side vs. perfectly microable ranged units on the offenders side that even outclass the melee in mobility. Balanced out more or less with incredibly strong/op lategame units of zerg. It is painful to watch.
- Skip of midgame altogether.
- We continue to see 80% bio army max mobility terran gameplay and an immobile forced into defence with inferior units until lategame Z. This matchup has devolved from muta/ling/bane into queen/ling/bane into lategame units. Can any other units such as e.g. roaches/ravagers/hydras even get a viable spot in any metagame against such an overpowered bio + x composition?
- Game ending harrassment of terran & liberators that shut down whole eco lines for long periods of times. Yawn.
- Zerg counter attacks all useless as they increase the risk to just die instant to the next few attacks, which is usually initiated by losing the first hatch as a reward for e.g. taking out 9 scv with 4 banelings. Especially baneling vs. SCV trades are useless unless you are already ahead, what you kind of are if you can defend the terran's attacks without those lings/banes used for runbys/drops usually, or the terran misses his timings on lower levels of play.
I could continue beating the dead horse but at this point I am not only bored of playing and watching this but even of commenting on it.
I could continue beating the dead horse but at this point I am not only bored of playing and watching this but even of commenting on it.
Gread idea, since your post is complete nonsense.
The amount of people not giving Byun credit for his impressive play is just way too high. And that's what's wrong with SC2 these days, too many people complain no matter what instead of enjoying the game.
I could continue beating the dead horse but at this point I am not only bored of playing and watching this but even of commenting on it.
Gread idea, since your post is complete nonsense.
The amount of people not giving Byun credit for his impressive play is just way too high. And that's what's wrong with SC2 these days, too many people complain no matter what instead of enjoying the game.
It's not true - thats a typical "end-discussion-leftist-point". Byun is impressive, he is amazing and deserved the win. But that doesn't change the fact thats reapers are way to strong in the early game. As I said, the unit is designed to be a scouting unit and distract the zerg from ONLY building drones in the early game, Z have to build 4-8 lings to handle a single reaper !
Its not supposed to be a game ending unit, like it is right know with good micro. The main problem is that Z cannot take a third. So Z goes hardly behind in the midgame and from that point its just a downplay by a good T. Dark went 2-3 games EARLY POOL - to be safe against stuff like this. So he was well prepared but didn't had any chance...
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
Opportunity to go for a macro game you said? When zerg was forced to mine 2 gases instead of mining minerals and less workers than terran with MULES because of stopping reaper with grenades harass... You know what? if zerg goes macro game there, same level player with terran will crush you in early-mid game easily, the reason why 3 rax reaper build with grenades is OP is not only about reapers, in high level, you can't stop reapers from killing drones or units if you try to defend with pure roaches and spine, you have to make 2 gases and ravagers and start with lower workers than terran who already also have MULES, and also get delayed 3rd, unless you are much better player than terran, you will get crushed easily if you go macro game from there against terran, and this is why 3 rax reaper is OP in highest level.
Hmm...so you mean there's nothing Dark could have done and he's already dead the moment ByuN went for 3rax reaper? If so, then Dark probably didn't have any chance in the first place and people still bet on him to win. What a time to be alive.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
We could but it´s not like mutas are a problem.
Reapers ain't a problem either.
I´m sure you have read all the previous comments from other people and Snute for example. Even many T players agree that it is problematic and is ruining at least TvT. I get that you are angry about op ultras and they can be changed but how is a unit that comes out before speed or roaches, has healing, grenades, cliff jumping and superb mobility, can kill larvae (imagine zerg with 4 contaminates at 2min) and can prevent Z taking a third in a meta where Z mid game is decidedly weaker than terrans. Imagine zerg with cliff jumping, healing, baneling shooting, speedlings in the early game.
On November 06 2016 17:46 kajtarp wrote: For many many many years i cheer for zergs. But Byun is such a nice person it's really hard not to like him. I want to ask, after new patch will reaper openings that strong still? If i'm correct zerglings and other units will get a health buff? Or that doesn't matter and it will be the same? Are reapers (or Byun reapers) really broken or were there things that Dark could have done differently?
The reapers will stay completely the same. Zerglings and Queens too. Only banelings get a healthbuff if you research the speed upgrade. So reaper openings will stay the same.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
We could but it´s not like mutas are a problem.
Reapers ain't a problem either.
I´m sure you have read all the previous comments from other people and Snute for example. Even many T players agree that it is problematic and is ruining at least TvT. I get that you are angry about op ultras and they can be changed but how is a unit that comes out before speed or roaches, has healing, grenades, cliff jumping and superb mobility, can kill larvae (imagine zerg with 4 contaminates at 2min) and can prevent Z taking a third in a meta where Z mid game is decidedly weaker than terrans. Imagine zerg with cliff jumping, healing, baneling shooting, speedlings in the early game.
Come on man. I'm okay with the idea but we avoid exaggerating and making shit up. Byuns first reaper was at best hitting at 2:30 and a larva killing amount were more like 4 minutes.
You can have roaches out at 4 minutes. You can finish metabolic boost.
Yes u can. But this forced overreaction sets Zerg hardcore behind when entering the midgame and he dies from follow up attack. This was exactly what we saw in Dark vs Byun series. Dark defended this perfectly executed mass reapers build as perfect as it was possible. Byun didnt kill drones. But the while time Dark was firced to build units like speedlibgs, queens and roaches/ravagers which completely slowed down his eco, his third and his tech. And in the same time Terran got 3 orbitals and massive marine production.
On November 08 2016 08:45 hiroshOne wrote: Yes u can. But this forced overreaction sets Zerg hardcore behind when entering the midgame and he dies from follow up attack. This was exactly what we saw in Dark vs Byun series. Dark defended this perfectly executed mass reapers build as perfect as it was possible. Byun didnt kill drones. But the while time Dark was firced to build units like speedlibgs, queens and roaches/ravagers which completely slowed down his eco, his third and his tech. And in the same time Terran got 3 orbitals and massive marine production.
Thi is it. Please someone argue what Z should do differently? Posibly game-ending aggression that even when doing no worker damage gives T the lead.
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
We could but it´s not like mutas are a problem.
Reapers ain't a problem either.
I´m sure you have read all the previous comments from other people and Snute for example. Even many T players agree that it is problematic and is ruining at least TvT. I get that you are angry about op ultras and they can be changed but how is a unit that comes out before speed or roaches, has healing, grenades, cliff jumping and superb mobility, can kill larvae (imagine zerg with 4 contaminates at 2min) and can prevent Z taking a third in a meta where Z mid game is decidedly weaker than terrans. Imagine zerg with cliff jumping, healing, baneling shooting, speedlings in the early game.
Come on man. I'm okay with the idea but we avoid exaggerating and making shit up. Byuns first reaper was at best hitting at 2:30 and a larva killing amount were more like 4 minutes.
You can have roaches out at 4 minutes. You can finish metabolic boost.
Sorry for the times being wrong. Still does not change how powerful reapers are in the early game. (see the reasons i gave)
I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his matches in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his codes in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only.
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his codes in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only.
You don't get what he is trying to tell you. Are reapers a problem, maybe or could it be just byun. Because like he pointed out that he can't recall any significant games where reapers were a problem throughout the year.
Or like i pointed out in an earlier post using ALL the results of premier tournaments and major tournaments.
If reapers were such a big problem, we probably shouldn't see any zergs in any tournaments. And based on a tvp win rate that is in terran's advantage, man terran should be winning every single tournament.
But guess what. Terran has been the least represented race in all 16 premier tournaments this year except for 2. (Counting ro32 onwards and ro16 when that is not possible).
And Terran has had the least tournament wins out of the 3 races. Zerg and protoss both have 6 premier wins and Terran has 4. Byun won 2 of those.
So please tell me why isn't Terran winning everything and making sure no zergs get into tournaments?? Why? Everyone can abuse reapers. Why isn't the ZvT winrate something like 10% because reapers are so OP and terrans can just spam them and win?
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
While i thought about that solution before i don't see why we want the ability to be in the game to begin with. Reapers still aren't used in the mid to lategame because of it, all it did was buffing them in the early game. Nobody ever asked for that and it wasn't needed. The whole idea of reapers being useful in the mid to lategame doesn't work because of medivacs. Every bio terran wants to have medivas which makes mobility a non factor. Ofc reapers aren't used to harass when medivacs with bio are way better at doing the same. Remove that stupid grenade completely and if people cry about reapers being useless later on in the game so be it. (grenades don't change that)
On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote: TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
I am currently working on a Mod, though I'm slow in progress I am thinking of upping the Reapers HP, but removing the Combat Regeneration. Then for late game add an upgrade which makes the Grenades deal massive damage to buildings (Something like 3-4 Grenades can snipe a Pylon.)
The trade off here would be that you cannot as easily translate APM into more damage, but have to weigh cost of Health into the decision also. The idea would be to keep about the same strength though and hopefully promote awesome use of Grenades as opposed to awesome use of Combat Healing. I find the Grenades extremely cool and if someone uses it for a mid game battle, it would make me super happy. Also there would be less anti synergi between the Medivac and Reaper and hopefully Terran players would then smartly savour their Reapers for when Medivacs come out.
The only reason this discussion is even going on though, is because ByuN is the best damn Reaper player in the game and Dark made some questionable decisions, pulling back his Lings as he was just about getting a surround.
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his codes in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only.
You don't get what he is trying to tell you. Are reapers a problem, maybe or could it be just byun. Because like he pointed out that he can't recall any significant games where reapers were a problem throughout the year.
Or like i pointed out in an earlier post using ALL the results of premier tournaments and major tournaments.
If reapers were such a big problem, we probably shouldn't see any zergs in any tournaments. And based on a tvp win rate that is in terran's advantage, man terran should be winning every single tournament.
But guess what. Terran has been the least represented race in all 16 premier tournaments this year except for 2. (Counting ro32 onwards and ro16 when that is not possible).
And Terran has had the least tournament wins out of the 3 races. Zerg and protoss both have 6 premier wins and Terran has 4. Byun won 2 of those.
So please tell me why isn't Terran winning everything and making sure no zergs get into tournaments?? Why? Everyone can abuse reapers. Why isn't the ZvT winrate something like 10% because reapers are so OP and terrans can just spam them and win?
Everything is not black and white. A unit can be too powerful without removing one race out of tournaments. Just like ultras can be too strong and terrans can still exist. The point is that they are one of the reasons for the terrible state of TvZ at the moment. Terran is heavily favored and has the mobility advantage until zerg can turtle into ultras and then has the advantage.
"With Zergs having ravagers, ovie speed, drops, and burrow at hatch tech, plus the buffed queens, how do you justify nerfing reapers?"
Dude are you serious? Do u know what time mass reapers hit and how much time u need to make burrow upgrade? Do u know how much cost in gas is Ravager? And how much developing Ravagers sets you behind in economy? There's a reason why we say "allin" when Zerg makes so early roach/ravager. In the same time, with mass reapers controlling Zerg eco, and the map, behind the wall. Terran is perfectly safe in taking second and third orbital, dropping mules and explode his eco, and turning it into mass BIO production sustained by- mules. It's not even fair.
Reapers are not being abused the fullest as most high end players dont want to base their play solely on that (pride/honor) and rather keep it as a niche build but strong instead of see it nerfed after overusing it and then lose it (practical reason). In reality a perfectly executed 3 rax reaper play and a perfectly executed defense against that will always put terran ahead (due to required overreaction on top level of play, lower levels of play allow higher risk taking and gaining more advantage against reapers in theory which makes it more coinflippy). It is however easy to make mistakes with reapers and Z has to count on that. The strength of reapers can more easily be seen in teamgames and what double terran can do with that e.g. in 2v2 just as a side note.
The issues are structural in SC2 tho.
- Z relying on strong lategame instead of T - T role of harrassment in early/midgame instead of Z - T mobile units instead of Z - Development strategy of buffing counters instead of toning down too strong things leads to dead ends in design (such as the brought up mutalisk regeneration, which now cannot easily be removed as too strong counters have been implemented already)
In this context talking about reaper nerf makes few sense for me. It had to be embedded in an overall overhaul. This should defenitely involve to strengthen strengthes of races. The problem is that 75% of all units of zerg are non viable during most phases of the game apart from all-in or semi all-in play since 6 years and it is stuck on ling/bane as these are the only units to come by terran bio mobility.
The thing of zerg should be mobile units, easy & fast to build units, fast tech switches, weaker units, more offensive than defensive.
The thing of terran should be a strong but slowly pushing style with a solid endgame, more defensive than offensive.
The reality is the other way round and in this way all the good defensive tools that terran has must be used and useable offensively or are being abandoned in favour of bio. The ability of zerg to offend and spam units is utilized mostly defensively, the ability of switching tech quickly gets meaningless and obsolete under constant pressure of Terran attacks and at the risk of dying while switching tech.
The whole issue of SC2 is centered around this very issue. And fixing it is as easy as developing a metagame that fits better to each of the races tools or switching the tools (which is bullshit). Exactly that is the only way to restore fun and joy of SC2 by all means.
Mules e.g. fit perfectly to a race that is under constant harrassment and pressure from attacks. It allows the defender to compensate for lost economy (one of the defender disadvantages) within fights without having to cut much production for it.
Spawn larva mechanic instead and the mechanical requirement to keep it up during fights in order to keep up the pressure fits perfectly to an offensive style of play.
This is turning to complete bullshit if you give the defender the spawn larva mechanic and the offender the mules. It is one side aspect why SC2 feels bad. Having spawn larva in defence mode just doesnt compensate much for defenders disadvantage as you still have to pay for and cut production to get your economy back up and running. Hence SC2 balance is so fragile.
The fun of SC2 can be created in a metagame where Z can try and deny T third base and terran tries to take and secure it with PF, mines, bunkers, sieged tanks, liberators, etc. The tools of terrans perfectly allow metagames to evolve around defence centered builds. If Terran can afford he can execute medivac drops, banshee/liberator harrassment while being under the pressure of the Zerg. As Zerg got no mules (and then debuffed queens) he cannot make up for economic losses that easily during his attacks and his attacks can be slowed down through that.
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his matches in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
3 rax reaper used mostly in foreign scene and only byun in Korean scene. players like Kelazhur, MarineLord, uThermal, Major won shit lots of easy wins this season on frozen temple & galactic process. Here you can see Iaguz taking his 2 free maps from Scarlett
if you really insist i might waste my time and find other vods in other tournaments
People so much used to terran getting shat on (like not even a foreign terran qualifying while 6 zergs qualified in foreign WCS) that there must be something very wrong with the game if a terran manages to win. I guess you'll say "uh 6 zergs qualifying is about the players being better, not the game being in a wrong state!!" so I'll tell you to accept that ByuN is a better player as well, chill the fuck out.
Reapers are in bad state already (outside of early game they are useless, and they are not as strong early game as you make it up to be), and the fact that TY lost to a similar build as well further shows that those in Kespa house didn't practice early game enough, or not with good enough micro players.
Byun ! A truly well-achieved victory! The current, Sc2 King that we all deserve as he made it through extremely tough match up against the very best in the world - Note that it comprised of all races (Zerg, Terran & Protoss) . His victory has marked as one of the greatest histories and a testament in the Sc2 scene where he went teamless but yet still prevail as the world champ!!
Kudos and Congratulations on winning the championship title, Byun! Good Game and very well Played!
On November 08 2016 23:06 Poopi wrote: and the fact that TY lost to a similar build as well further shows that those in Kespa house didn't practice early game enough, or not with good enough micro players.
That's bullshit. TY had a build order loss. He was fast expanding against a 3-rax proxy. He should have died pretty quickly considering it was ByuN who was microing the reapers. Instead he randomly dies at some point 3 minutes later after actually stabilizing because he moved his units out of position for no reason. But at any rate, it has nothing to do with not practicing enough - you can practice this a million times and still mess up the one time that it counts.
I rest my case, reapers are atrocious for TvT early game because they have the highest micro potential and free healing. It's no wonder Zerg feels the pain as well.
How is that bullshit? The fact that he had a build order loss actually proves the point. If you practice enough on each map you don't get a BO loss against fucking 3 rax reapers which is out since probably beta, and at least early LotV, you adjust your scouting pattern or play more conservatively depending on your build.
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his codes in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only.
You don't get what he is trying to tell you. Are reapers a problem, maybe or could it be just byun. Because like he pointed out that he can't recall any significant games where reapers were a problem throughout the year.
Or like i pointed out in an earlier post using ALL the results of premier tournaments and major tournaments.
If reapers were such a big problem, we probably shouldn't see any zergs in any tournaments. And based on a tvp win rate that is in terran's advantage, man terran should be winning every single tournament.
But guess what. Terran has been the least represented race in all 16 premier tournaments this year except for 2. (Counting ro32 onwards and ro16 when that is not possible).
And Terran has had the least tournament wins out of the 3 races. Zerg and protoss both have 6 premier wins and Terran has 4. Byun won 2 of those.
So please tell me why isn't Terran winning everything and making sure no zergs get into tournaments?? Why? Everyone can abuse reapers. Why isn't the ZvT winrate something like 10% because reapers are so OP and terrans can just spam them and win?
Everything is not black and white. A unit can be too powerful without removing one race out of tournaments. Just like ultras can be too strong and terrans can still exist. The point is that they are one of the reasons for the terrible state of TvZ at the moment. Terran is heavily favored and has the mobility advantage until zerg can turtle into ultras and then has the advantage.
What is wrong with your understanding? I did not say zergs do not exist anymore. I am saying that terran representation in premier and major tournaments have been the lowest throughout the year.
If you still do not understand what that means, let me put it in simpler terms ok. If terran reaper is so OP and as statistics have shown the winrate for TvP has been slightly in favor of terran for most of the year, Why isn't there more terrans qualifying for tournaments? Why hasn't there been more terran champions?? Since they are obviously gonna abuse reapers against zerg and statistics are showing them slightly favored against protoss in the current meta.
WhY??? Because it is not as big of an issue as people have been making it to be after one damn finals.
And terrible state of tvz is very VERY subjective. For every person who said that the finals was terrible and they didn't enjoy it, i can find another person who said they enjoyed it. For me at least, it was the most entertaining finals in recent years.
Yes it is mostly correct that if terran doesn't do any early damage or zerg has to turtle until end game. But what makes that terrible? Because you just don't like it? I am sorry man, you not liking it doesn't mean a thing is terrible. Let me give you an example, i do not enjoy the way korean food is cooked and then i claim that it is terrible because it is not cooked in the way i want it to be. Does that make any sense?
Unless you have somehow done a poll for all the 100 thousand viewers who tuned in for the finals and have found that more than 50% think it was terrible, that is a unsubstantial claim with absolutely nothing to back it up.
Beliefs do not confirm anything. You need numbers, evidence, proof !
On November 08 2016 23:50 Poopi wrote: How is that bullshit? The fact that he had a build order loss actually proves the point. If you practice enough on each map you don't get a BO loss against fucking 3 rax reapers which is out since probably beta, and at least early LotV, you adjust your scouting pattern or play more conservatively depending on your build.
Practicing enough on each map doesn't mean you don't get build order losses anymore. It's exactly because of practicing the maps a lot and knowing your opponents that you get confident enough to take certain risks. In the WESG qualifiers, TY went CC first on Apotheosis against INnoVation. If INnoVation went for a proxy TY would have been outright dead. But against any regular build it was perfectly safe because of the rush distance on Apotheosis.
TY didn't expect ByuN to cheese him, he didn't consider that at all so he didn't play around it. Probably neither of them proxies when they play each other on ladder and such. You can even see when his scout is in ByuN's main and he checks every corner of the base before accepting that he actually got proxied and cancelling his CC. But despite the late scout and ByuN's godlike reaper micro that game, TY actually got into a position where he could have stabilized (until he lifted the viking and moved all his other units down his ramp and subsequently died). And that to me is definitely the mark of someone who has practiced against this quite a bit.
On November 08 2016 19:21 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I'm just having a tough time even remembering an important game decided by reapers. What games are you guys referring to?
I saw Dark vs Innovation gsl code A, they fought for the code s spot. I remember a close series, macro oriented, that Dark edged out 3-2.
I watched Maru play a proleague game vs Solar where he went SKY TERRAN, no op reapers.
GSL code s round of 8 Byun vs Ryung. Fucking epic, macro war, came down too crazy ass base trade. I can't recall reapers deciding that one either. Saw a TON of Gumiho games, lots of cyclones, not so many reapers.
Ty went undefeated in SSl challenger group. I can't exactly recall a dominant reaper build, gotta check the vods.
I can't recall Reality, Alive, Cure, Dream wasn't even fielded that much in proleague, Bravo, not Taeja, Ryung, Bomber, Innovation, TY, I mean the ONLY GUYS REAPERS THAT STAND OUT TO ME ARE BYUNS.
Look at Darks build vs Drogo, what about burrow? No? Okay.....
It's just I watched a LOT of Starcraft this year, and NO ONES reapers were remotely as impressive as Byuns. Watch some of his codes in Olimoleague to see what I mean. You can't just DO micro like that, that's some shit specific to HIM......
Seriously, if you guys have specifics games in mind, I'd love to see em.
Zerg has the most complete tech tree they have ever had in the whole iteration of SC2, its like someone else said, they are just dumb a lot of the times.
Oh I forgot, Dark also was the most effective at the Roach Ravager Infestor combo too...
I just don't understand, WHAT GAMES? Give me links lol' I wanna see....
The problem is that zerg can´t reach that tech tree after reaper pressure on some maps because they get so behind that the follow up push kills them. I can´t remember what online cup it was but maybe 2-3 weeks ago Uthermal 3-0 Snute with reapers only.
You don't get what he is trying to tell you. Are reapers a problem, maybe or could it be just byun. Because like he pointed out that he can't recall any significant games where reapers were a problem throughout the year.
Or like i pointed out in an earlier post using ALL the results of premier tournaments and major tournaments.
If reapers were such a big problem, we probably shouldn't see any zergs in any tournaments. And based on a tvp win rate that is in terran's advantage, man terran should be winning every single tournament.
But guess what. Terran has been the least represented race in all 16 premier tournaments this year except for 2. (Counting ro32 onwards and ro16 when that is not possible).
And Terran has had the least tournament wins out of the 3 races. Zerg and protoss both have 6 premier wins and Terran has 4. Byun won 2 of those.
So please tell me why isn't Terran winning everything and making sure no zergs get into tournaments?? Why? Everyone can abuse reapers. Why isn't the ZvT winrate something like 10% because reapers are so OP and terrans can just spam them and win?
Everything is not black and white. A unit can be too powerful without removing one race out of tournaments. Just like ultras can be too strong and terrans can still exist. The point is that they are one of the reasons for the terrible state of TvZ at the moment. Terran is heavily favored and has the mobility advantage until zerg can turtle into ultras and then has the advantage.
What is wrong with your understanding? I did not say zergs do not exist anymore. I am saying that terran representation in premier and major tournaments have been the lowest throughout the year.
If you still do not understand what that means, let me put it in simpler terms ok. If terran reaper is so OP and as statistics have shown the winrate for TvP has been slightly in favor of terran for most of the year, Why isn't there more terrans qualifying for tournaments? Why hasn't there been more terran champions?? Since they are obviously gonna abuse reapers against zerg and statistics are showing them slightly favored against protoss in the current meta.
WhY??? Because it is not as big of an issue as people have been making it to be after one damn finals.
And terrible state of tvz is very VERY subjective. For every person who said that the finals was terrible and they didn't enjoy it, i can find another person who said they enjoyed it. For me at least, it was the most entertaining finals in recent years.
Yes it is mostly correct that if terran doesn't do any early damage or zerg has to turtle until end game. But what makes that terrible? Because you just don't like it? I am sorry man, you not liking it doesn't mean a thing is terrible. Let me give you an example, i do not enjoy the way korean food is cooked and then i claim that it is terrible because it is not cooked in the way i want it to be. Does that make any sense?
Unless you have somehow done a poll for all the 100 thousand viewers who tuned in for the finals and have found that more than 50% think it was terrible, that is a unsubstantial claim with absolutely nothing to back it up.
Beliefs do not confirm anything. You need numbers, evidence, proof !
I did not say that every person thinks TvZ is terrible nor did i mention the finals in any way which makes your attack on my understanding questionable. You are right that you did not say that zerg do not exist but you said that if the reaper is OP then zerg winrates should be about 10% which is almost like the race did not exist. I was trying to say that slight imbalance or a unit being to strong does not mean that win rates drop to that level (10%). Also my biggest problem with the reaper is in its design (regen, speed, cliff jump etc.) and overall i have a problem with TvZ. In conclusion i was trying to say that if the reaper is op it does not lead to Z having 10% win rate as you said. As a terran you must remember that even in the blink era win rates were not that dire. My response was to your claim that imbalance would show itself as terrible win rates for Z or there is no possibility of imbalance or a problem with the reaper.
I watched the games, they were pretty good, thnx for that...
Now.......you are wrong. Those were NOT build order losses. Like LOLOLOLOLOL? That was just decent Terran play, and bad, no CONSISTENT bad larvae management by Scarlett. I mean good lord, is this actually representative of what you guys want nerfed?
I mean, that was TWO RAX reaper? And that sure as HELL wasn't any Byun level micro. Or any really great multi-tasking or strategy. Scarlett was too greedy for her own good. Considering she's been in Korea, she looked kinda bad. Not Nerchio level, maybe a notch below True? Please tell me you got something else.....
Gratz Byun was a pleasure watching and a really nice guy that deserves everything!
to the reaper discussion: How many weeks and months Terrans had to loose to adepts withouth nothing significant beeing changed? Eventually the game balanced itself through players learning how to deal with it. It did take quite a while imo and the reaper vs Z complaints here arent based on half as many games. I watched literally everything competitive this year and I rewatched alot while working on my 2016 highlight video and yes, there are a solid amount of instances where reapers seem to win games/series'. You could say Uthermal won half the IEM with reapers. TY and Byun sneaked in wins here and there. I just dont see the samplesize though beeing big enough to get a final opinion on the matter. Its also one of those playstyles that naturally favors the aggressor because he probably played these games more often than the defender. Just like Has still wins here and there with cannon rushes although in that case even everybody knows its happening. And that is a guy winning that in a normal game stands no chance against most opponents he faces. That isnt really true for Uthermal, TY and Byun at least the last two most of the time are actually heavily favored against there Z opponents no matter what strategy they use. Uthermal also showed macro games on his way to IEM victory and still won vs Snute, Violet and Elazer. So maybe he was just better that day...
Overall I would be just a bit careful with calling things op to fast, even though I understand the point of view as I cant resist doing that myself more often than not.
Regarding Z behind in eco cause reapers: I still havent gotten or figured out an explanation why Zs are fine beeing behind P in eco in LOTV almost until both are fully saturated, when it was Z beeing ahead throughout WOL and HOTS. There you guys found a way to compete maybe theres one too in those ZvT scenarios where your behind. Idk.
People here don't seem to understand that reaper grenades basically are like forcefields in that good usage of the ability prevents micro from the opponent. It's hard to use, sure but if you use it well the enemy cannot really do anything about it. That's not a problem with one or two reapers because the cooldown prevents it, but if you have enough you can throw grenades 24/7. Add the healing factor and the mobility and you might understand why it's a ridiculous unit for the early game.
As i said somewhere else in this thread, blizzard wanted reapers to be a thing in the midgame. It isn't. Why? Because you simply cannot micro everything at once there (the grenades therefore are basically useless) and the mobility is a nonfactor as well (medivacs)
No, noone here wants to diminish Byun's achievement, he deserved to win it. BUT reapers still managed to destroy games and that shouldn't happen quite frankly. Who wants to see that really? Game 5 was the best game by far, games like that should be more common in LOTV, they are not though.
On November 09 2016 01:42 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I watched the games, they were pretty good, thnx for that...
Now.......you are wrong. Those were NOT build order losses. Like LOLOLOLOLOL? That was just decent Terran play, and bad, no CONSISTENT bad larvae management by Scarlett. I mean good lord, is this actually representative of what you guys want nerfed?
I mean, that was TWO RAX reaper? And that sure as HELL wasn't any Byun level micro. Or any really great multi-tasking or strategy. Scarlett was too greedy for her own good. Considering she's been in Korea, she looked kinda bad. Not Nerchio level, maybe a notch below True? Please tell me you got something else.....
If there was a zerg build that counters 3 rax reaper, than yes it would be a build order lost. But there is none, so its autolose not a build order lose. Dark went pool first everygame without losing single drone but still lost the game. i am sure you will find some excuse for every game i posted here, there are 50 others you can find in youtube, go ahead. And some guys here complaining about zerg being op, if it is true, is it a good way to balance the matchup with reapers? Note: Its so messy with vods how can i just share the urls ?
On November 09 2016 01:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: People here don't seem to understand that reaper grenades basically are like forcefields in that good usage of the ability prevents micro from the opponent. It's hard to use, sure but if you use it well the enemy cannot really do anything about it. That's not a problem with one or two reapers because the cooldown prevents it, but if you have enough you can throw grenades 24/7. Add the healing factor and the mobility and you might understand why it's a ridiculous unit for the early game.
As i said somewhere else in this thread, blizzard wanted reapers to be a thing in the midgame. It isn't. Why? Because you simply cannot micro everything at once there (the grenades therefore are basically useless) and the mobility is a nonfactor as well (medivacs)
No, noone here wants to diminish Byun's achievement, he deserved to win it. BUT reapers still managed to destroy games and that shouldn't happen quite frankly. Who wants to see that really? Game 5 was the best game by far, games like that should be more common in LOTV, they are not though.
You can actually micro around them, unlike forcefield. I'm pretty sure Life would have been pretty fine against such builds.
On November 09 2016 01:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: People here don't seem to understand that reaper grenades basically are like forcefields in that good usage of the ability prevents micro from the opponent. It's hard to use, sure but if you use it well the enemy cannot really do anything about it. That's not a problem with one or two reapers because the cooldown prevents it, but if you have enough you can throw grenades 24/7. Add the healing factor and the mobility and you might understand why it's a ridiculous unit for the early game.
As i said somewhere else in this thread, blizzard wanted reapers to be a thing in the midgame. It isn't. Why? Because you simply cannot micro everything at once there (the grenades therefore are basically useless) and the mobility is a nonfactor as well (medivacs)
No, noone here wants to diminish Byun's achievement, he deserved to win it. BUT reapers still managed to destroy games and that shouldn't happen quite frankly. Who wants to see that really? Game 5 was the best game by far, games like that should be more common in LOTV, they are not though.
You can actually micro around them, unlike forcefield. I'm pretty sure Life would have been pretty fine against such builds.
Just stick with the games we saw, dont come with hypothetical sh.., I dont even care who wins this but that mass reaper early agresion is something really ugly to watch, I remember one game where the zerg attacked from three angles and he was owned by the grenades and the reapers jumping.
Don't even know why you posted that one, where is the complaint? It was a well played series by both sides. Like WTF?
The only thing I saw in these vods is that Uthermal is a fuckin BEAST LOL, I had no idea. And remember, this is from a Zerg player going back to BroodWar....
Serrell lost cause he plays just like every other goofy ass Zerg with the goddamn roaches. Who told these Zergs roaches are good vs Bio? Why did all Zergs forget how to make fuckin banelings? I honestly don't even understand the Roach play if you are eventually trying to get to Ultras' like don't you need melee upgrades? And don't lings work better for that transition? How can you be mobile and " Swarmy" with roaches?
You Zergs, I'm sorry to say are whining HARD, like y'all are seriously bias.
The most dominant game was Uthermal destroying Serrall, but even that was like, impressive micro. Maybe that MAP IS OP FOR REAPERS, but that's one fuckin map, Jesus.
EPT
ByuN entered WCS 2016 as one of the firm favorites to take the title, but after a surprise loss to 
ShoWTimE in the group stage doubt began to surface about whether he would go the distance. He put any doubts to rest after his impressive 3-1 victory over 
Dark.![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS2016/G1.jpg)
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![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS2016/GF5.jpg)
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![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/WCS2016/GF7.jpg)
, but there is still hope for him to win a big tournament again 
