|
+ Show Spoiler +On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
Thanks a lot for actually getting the facts in. Sad thing is, poeple still will believe the two to three individual events they can remember (where e.g. Terran won with Reapers) mean the world. It's the same thing like talking to people claiming foreigners are more criminal and vaccines causing autism. Sigh.
Still, I'm so happy to have whitnessed live what I believe to be the best Starcraft 2 match of all time. To elaborate briefly, I mean it was the best all aspects considered (even though the raw quality of game five was also the best ive seen ever).
|
|
|
On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2.
The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 54 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 54 vs 46 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. These figures indicate equally skilled T will win more then 80% of bo 7 TvP mathes.
|
On November 07 2016 02:40 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2. The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation.
he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part.
also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
|
On November 07 2016 02:44 Tanzklaue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 02:40 FarFarSeer wrote:On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2. The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part. meanwhile the blink era was domination for many, many months (like 6 months i think?), which isn't comparable in any way. also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
|
On November 07 2016 02:44 Tanzklaue wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 02:40 FarFarSeer wrote:On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2. The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part. also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran.
He didn't. Here is exact quote:
"So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ."
|
On November 07 2016 02:40 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2. The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 54 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 54 vs 46 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. These figures indicate equally skilled T will win more then 80% of bo 7 TvP mathes.
I may be interpreting your post wrong, but are you referring to the 56% in September? If so, it's one month and he specifically said it was one of the two months of the year where one race had a significant advantage over the other. How is that extremely biased interpretation? Pardon in advance if that wasn't what you were referring to.
|
Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon.
We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff?
If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
|
On November 07 2016 02:47 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 02:44 Tanzklaue wrote:On November 07 2016 02:40 FarFarSeer wrote:On November 07 2016 01:10 Kaizor wrote:Thanks, somehow this wasn't showing for me. For those lazy to see the graph, as of Oct 2016, the win rates are as follows: TvZ 51.96% PvZ 47.56% PvT 46.86% So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ. And according to the graph TvZ has been hovering between 48-52% throughout the year. So it's not like Terrans have been thrashing every other race in LOTV. And as tournament results have shown, it has only been Byun owning everyone. He has a win rate of above 70% in all match-ups. So do not just go around making false claims with nothing to back you up. According to statistics, the only match-ups that had a significant advantage was PvZ of 44.15% in Feb this year and PvT of 44.88% in Sept. This were the only two months when one race seem to have a significant advantage over another. For the rest of the months it was only a difference of about 2-4%. And according to results, out of the 16 premier tournaments held so far this year, Terran has won 4. (Byun won 2 of them) Protoss has won 6. Zerg has won 6. Out of the 24 Major tournaments, Terran has won 5. (Byun won one of them but the rest were regional tournaments where he could not have taken part in) Zerg has won 13. Protoss has won 6. So enough of all this Terran op saltiness. It's Byun that is op. Not his race. *adding on, i even looked through the representation of all the premier tournaments. Looking at ro32(ro16 when that was not possible). And out of the 16 Premier tournaments. There was only 2 tournaments where Terran was not the least represented. GSL season 2 and SSL season 2. The numbers are interpreted wrong. Terran have 56 winrate is more than protoss winrate in early 2014 blink era. Remind you, that time it led to massive balance overhaul, nerfing blink, mothership core vision, heavily time warp nerf AND WM buff vs shield. So calling 56 vs 44 advantage " a slight one" is completely biased interpretation. he called the 56% terran winrate a "significant" difference though, but it was jsut a 1 month fluke, else t was even for the most part. also seeing as byun is the only terran that has consistently amazing winrates in all 3 match ups, i think it is safe to say that without byun, we would look at a heavily skewed balance against terran. He didn't. Here is exact quote: "So out of the 3 match-ups, Terran seem to have a slight advantage in PvT and a even smaller advantage in TvZ."
I think you're comparing two different things. That quote is the YTD PvT % numbers. The 56% is the TvP rate in September. Two different rates and commentaries for each.
|
On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon.
We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff?
If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
Actually, throwing statistics is miles more userfull than your post.
Also, according to my experience, when user note some problem, he is usually right. But when he offers solution, he is usually wrong.
|
On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon.
We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff?
If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper?
So let me get this straight:
It's correct to scream imbalance after 1 match in which a Terran beats a Zerg (with the argument being primarily because of early game reapers).
But it's incorrect to bring in the yearly statistics showing that vs % rates are extremely close, and that Zerg have won more tournaments and been far more represented in tournaments throughout the year?
Furthermore, by the same token, why would it be wrong to bring in ultras OP QQ comments? Wouldn't the otherside be allowed the same courtesy of saying that late game ZvT is broken in favor or zerg and something needs to be done about it?
|
Fact: Terran won 100% of the 2016 blizzcon grand finals
Therefore, terran is OP as FUCK.
You can't deny facts.
|
On November 07 2016 02:51 yhellothere12 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 02:47 Aegwynn wrote:
Can't believe the discussion came to this again. All this statistics will be irrelevant because huge changes coming up soon.
We were talking about roles of reaper granade in the gameplay, why not contribute something useful instead of throwing statistics and ultras op qq stuff?
If there is an imbalance, is it right way to balance it via mass reaper? So let me get this straight: It's correct to scream imbalance after 1 match in which a Terran beats a Zerg (with the argument being primarily because of early game reapers). But it's incorrect to bring in the yearly statistics showing that vs % rates are extremely close, and that Zerg have won more tournaments and been far more represented in tournaments throughout the year?
Nobody screamed imbalance, Byun probably would win the series anyway but at least it could be a fun series.
As soon as Byun puts down the 2nd rax we all gonna know what will happen in the next minutes and the game will finish, there is no avoiding that or no counterplay exist. That is a problem. I personally no have problems vs 3 rax in my ladder games but it is so frustrating as a spectator. At least for me. Its ok if you enjoy jumping units around just because terran is winning.
|
On November 07 2016 02:52 payopayo wrote:
Fact: Terran won 100% of the 2016 blizzcon grand finals
Therefore, terran is OP as FUCK.
You can't deny facts.
First is the fact, second one is assumption made based on the small sample.
To the point, in my opinion, Byun's micro gave him the lead but his tactics and multitasking grant him well deserve and even too one sided victory.
|
You know what's also "not fun"? Watching a zerg turtle behind a great wall of queens, deflect any aggression, and roll their hive deathball to victory.
Yet somehow reaper openings are the real problem in the match up. Please.
|
I wonder how many of those " omg it was the best finals ever" would say same thing if Dark was the winner haha. I bet that we would hear the sound of cry over ultras being op and other stuff. I like how they pose now on being calm and all about skill, not balance.
To those who claim that Terran was underrrepresented in 2016. Just look how many Zergs died in Kore. Remember race distribution in Code S? Even in Proleague coaches would rather send Protoss or Terran to battle, not risking Zerg player. In Europe we always lacked of good, consistant Terran players and that''s the fact.
The problem of ZvT is not even in units but in economy model of LOTV and macro nerfs. Mules and 12 workers at the start synergies so well for Terran because BIO is almost purely based on mineral mining. On the other hand Zerg depends on gas to defend mass bio pushes and with macro nerfed over 25% they choose to turtle to strong hive units just because if they don't- they will never be cost effective in midgame and die.
For example yesterday Dark had 74 workers and Byun only 50 and still Byun mined more minerals and had free 20 supply for his army. Well go figure.
Lotv eco and macro changes. Simple as that. That's also the reason why Protoss dominates most of Terrans, because even mules cannot compete with constant chrono boost on nexuses and pylons shooting as free defence.
|
On November 07 2016 03:03 Athenau wrote:
You know what's also "not fun"? Watching a zerg turtle behind a great wall of queens, deflect any aggression, and roll their hive deathball to victory.
Yet somehow reaper openings are the real problem in the match up. Please.
Why can´t they both be a problem? Reapers are a problem because terran has a huge advantage early-midgame and Z lategame is a problem because Z has the advantage. This dynamic makes for some shitty games.
|
On November 07 2016 03:03 Athenau wrote:
You know what's also "not fun"? Watching a zerg turtle behind a great wall of queens, deflect any aggression, and roll their hive deathball to victory.
Yet somehow reaper openings are the real problem in the match up. Please.
I wonder based on what facts u think that Zerg players like the current state of TvZ. We turtle because the only other option is some kind of early allinn. I hate current ZvT and i really hope that it will change. I have nothing against nerfing Zergs lategame but i want midgame buff instead.
|
To those who claim that Terran was underrrepresented in 2016.
It's a fact, not a claim. Terran was underrepresented in 2016, as measured by tournament wins and runner-up placements.
Just look how many Zergs died in Kore. Remember race distribution in Code S? Even in Proleague coaches would rather send Protoss or Terran to battle, not risking Zerg player.
Zergs won two of the four Korean leagues this year, and won both cross-finals. They had one weak showing in GSL season 2, and as a result got buffed. I don't know how you can claim with a straight face that zerg is doing poorly.
|
On November 07 2016 03:08 hiroshOne wrote:
I wonder how many of those " omg it was the best finals ever" would say same thing if Dark was the winner haha. I bet that we would hear the sound of cry over ultras being op and other stuff. I like how they pose now on being calm and all about skill, not balance.
To those who claim that Terran was underrrepresented in 2016. Just look how many Zergs died in Kore. Remember race distribution in Code S? Even in Proleague coaches would rather send Protoss or Terran to battle, not risking Zerg player. In Europe we always lacked of good, consistant Terran players and that''s the fact.
The problem of ZvT is not even in units but in economy model of LOTV and macro nerfs. Mules and 12 workers at the start synergies so well for Terran because BIO is almost purely based on mineral mining. On the other hand Zerg depends on gas to defend mass bio pushes and with macro nerfed over 25% they choose to turtle to strong hive units just because if they don't- they will never be cost effective in midgame and die.
For example yesterday Dark had 74 workers and Byun only 50 and still Byun mined more minerals and had free 20 supply for his army. Well go figure.
Lotv eco and macro changes. Simple as that. That's also the reason why Protoss dominates most of Terrans, because even mules cannot compete with constant chrono boost on nexuses and pylons shooting as free defence.
"That's also the reason why Protoss dominates most of Terrans, because even mules cannot compete with constant chrono boost on nexuses and pylons shooting as free defence."
This. You dream up some questionable, at least, fact and then trying to prove it with even more questionable argument. Terran have a great LEAD in TvP since LOTV. Face this. Check aligulac. Or please, give any reason to treat you argument other than pure fantasy. List of protoss underdogs shredding terran in premier tournamets of 5 samples would be exactly what is needed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
