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On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote:
Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages.
Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out.
Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play...
Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
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On November 07 2016 10:44 Alexcalibur1996 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote:
Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages.
Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out.
Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play... Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
Ask any top Terran or top Zerg whose position they would favor if Dark were to try to macro up from that point. I bet they'll all favor ByuN's position.
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Honestly people there are ways as Zerg to hold all in reaper builds. I remember watching copa de America and the casters were talking about how scarlet can't lose to three rax because she practiced with byun enough to figure out the perfect deffense+ counter push using a reactive roach warren. Counterplay exists but if you arnt playing against the very best reaper player in the world your probably are not forced to develop it. Dark is good enough against any one else he probably survives this build. But because of that he does not know a safer response when byun executes it. Byun reapers are just not the same as other reapers.
Also the argument that Terran needs strong allins/ pressure is very relevant despite what people are saying. Except on very linear or choky maps Terran has almost no shot in the late game vs Zerg. So for the game to be fair Terran needs a reasonable chance to kill Zerg before they get there. If Terran does not have strong builds to kill Zerg before they get there than Terran losses by default on most maps. Terran needs builds that when they out micro and outplay there oponent, like byun did end the game. Otherwise it's unfair and you get wol Terran that just has to wait till the inevitable gg broodlord push. At least Terran right now is more like wol toss where you have strong Allin timings that if they do enough damage your oponent can't get to the gg army.
I would also remond you that Zerg also has many strong Allin options that often end games, dark just chose not to go with them because they have the potential to be hard countered, just like 3 rax. Most zergs simply shy away from Allin play because why take risks when you have a clock that ends the game?
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Will Blizzard release the replays?
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On November 06 2016 16:30 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote:
This is my first time ever posting on here, but I felt compelled to after reading a lot of these post..
The Sc2 community I feel is silly sometimes. The player who CLEARLY has the best SKILLS won. Not the best build order, or some op comp like Broodlord infestor, or swarm host nonsense. And people have the BALLS to try to blame Byuns win on a build order? He's as Artosis has described him,THE BEST REAPER PLAYER IN THE WORLD. And this is SKILL BASED, MICRO BASED, HOW THE HELL IS IT A BUILD ORDER THING? I really feel like you take away adepts and a lot of Protoss just straight up don't know how to play. Case in point is how they favored adept builds over the more micro intensive stalker disruptor play.
No banshees, hellions, cyclones, and after the queen buff, liberators in the early game really. So what's left? The Byun build, ( which he also executes better than anyone else, just look at the Violet games, or Byuns win over Dark in the GSL where he snipes all the banes... Was that op too?) or three rax reapers. Dark was one of the first zergs I saw who rushed a roach warren and then got an early ravager to push reaper builds back. SLOW THE GODDAMN GAME DOWN!!!!! Stop trying to rush to Ultras every damn game ASAP. And I mostly played Zerg in my time.
Byun did that Medi-vac build iN EVERY game practically in SSL, Dark SHOULD HAVE HAD AN ANSWER FOR IT GOOD LORD, how many games were available to study? 100? Easy. Maybe 300 lol...
If the build is so strong why only TWO terrans at blizzcon and SEVEN GODDAMN ZERGS? Did TY do it even ONCE at Blizzconn? Did Maru do it to Nerchio at Kespa cup?
Take Byuns Dear GSL semis, where Byun goes cloak Banshees. That wasn't a " build" , you can't just GO banshees and expect it to work, that was a strat, based on the meta of banshees being useless vs stargate openings, and toss going warp prism first, therefore being unprepared vs a cloak tech cause they have no detection.That's a GodDamn STRATEGY!!!!
The community loves builds, anyone can replicate some build. But what Byun does, very few can, and I feel like people don't like it when the game is more micro oriented, you can't just study and replicate the play. Seriously' mass banes still kill Terrans easily, why didn't we see that?
Or it's like when Showtime surprises Byun by actually making a support unit and using it correctly.
Byun might have played 100 straight games vs build order toss players who NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED MAKING A COLOSSI, of course he's gonna be taken aback.
The Terran scene in Korea was SO STRONG THIS YEAR, yet only 2 at Blizzcon, still all this whining, Goddamn SHM
preach. the reapers can be easily scouted and handled
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On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote:
TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo.
Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
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On November 07 2016 08:31 Spinoza wrote:
I think Liquid should give the man a contract. LiquidByun sounds nice :-)
ExpertByun is better 
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Honestly, when every single of Bronze league ~ Diamond league terrans micro reapers, they just die by pure a-moving speedlings. so these level players have 0 idea how 3 rax build is so crucial in TvZ in highest level. No offense, but this is true, if you are not high enough player, then you don't even know what's going on in pro level.
but even when tier 1 (maybe 2 as well) Master~GM terrans micro reapers against same lvl zergs, which is higher level of micro and macro from both side, even roaches die by grenades with reaper shoting easily, no matter how same level zerg player split and dodge well against grenades, cuz zerg units can't simply do moving shot like terran bio units. Zerg will be forced to make ravagers which is only counter to reapers with grenades in high level, and as workers have to mine gas, zerg is forced to stay in 2 base, And after zerg got delayed 3rd by those reapers harass, then zerg get so poor eco from start, and they cannot even counter attack because of those grenades especially in highest level when someone like ByuN use it, and meanwhile, terran still can get tech, and 3 CC soon with MULES and sit back for rich eco and prepare to crush zerg in early-mid game. (which is why Dark had much lower supply compared to ByuN in early-mid games where ByuN used 3 rax reaper build.) all players in master/gm league know it is extremely hard to come back for zerg when zerg start with so poor eco against terran or protoss.
I am not even zerg main player, and I don't play this game much anymore, I am not a good player, I am actually a Random player in master league who play games sometimes just for fun. But, I really think the grenades from terran should be fixed. The grenades are still kinda useless against protoss, and it won't matter much for low level players, and probably even for high master/low gm players like us, but when the highest pro level players like ByuN and Dark play, I really see the reapers' grenades look unfair as 3rd person's point of view seriously.(it is ByuN's micro, but the opponent was none other than Dark who has the far best ZvT from any others and same level player with ByuN) Every high level players in Korean community, ppl talking about (even terran players acknowledge reaper build is OP against zerg) how 3 rax reaper build ruined the final. Even one of 6k MMR level zerg player said 'the most epic cancer final'
But I see maps are also another problem of this build, such as Galatic, Frost, Ftemple, maps have hills everywhere in main base where reapers can go up and down freely and do grenades + shoting everywhere. But, in map like Gettys, reapers can't do efficient work cuz not much hill to move around zerg's main base. But anyway, instead of changing maps, fixing or nerfing grenades is better idea I think.
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Dark could have gone for roaches and spine crawlers for defense. On the map that he went roaches, he held the aggression from ByuN and had the opportunity to go for a macro game. It's his fault that he went for an all-in after that. Also, Dark's reluctance to go for roaches and fondness for lings and fast tier 3 tech is what causes him to take so much damage in the early game.
Opportunity to go for a macro game you said? When zerg was forced to mine 2 gases instead of mining minerals and less workers than terran with MULES because of stopping reaper with grenades harass... You know what? if zerg goes macro game there, same level player with terran will crush you in early-mid game easily, the reason why 3 rax reaper build with grenades is OP is not only about reapers, in high level, you can't stop reapers from killing drones or units if you try to defend with pure roaches and spine, you have to make 2 gases and ravagers and start with lower workers than terran who already also have MULES, and also get delayed 3rd, unless you are much better player than terran, you will get crushed easily if you go macro game from there against terran, and this is why 3 rax reaper is OP in highest level.
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On November 07 2016 05:52 FarFarSeer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:02 hiroshOne wrote:
Roaches don't counter reapers. U assumed this by pure stats but that's not the case. Reapers can outmicro roaches and withcthat build that Byun did he had sooo many reapers.Granades alone wreck roaches. Roaches supposed to counter marines (thats what sc2 tips say)and we all know that depends on many things. Numbers, how Terran kites his marines and so on.
We always say that we can talk about balance on the highest level of play. So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit. The only possible way for Dark to come back was if Byun made mistake. And Byun is too good to give away being so much ahead.
For example i have no problems in my diamond tier 2 with reapers builds as Terrans in that leagues are not microing well enough. But i understand that pro gamers as Snute here know that there is sth wrong with that particulary build. Let me rephrase "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs mass reapers couldn't do shit." to more correct and precise: "So here we had-the highest level possible and it was clear that even the best Zerg on the world with the best opening he could went vs best terran's mass reapers couldn't do shit. " Earlier on this thread there was video showcasing EXACT moments where Byun outmicroing Dark. So best terran's micro yesterday was better than best zerg's. Do you want zerg to deflect terran aggression despite their micro? BTW even when outplayed Dark wasn't dead, he was behind. Then Byun capitalizing his advantage with precise tactics, superb unit position and control and hyperthread-like multitasking. I want to ask you, how on earth do you want terran win against zerg so you will be glad to see it? Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 05:18 lifecanwait wrote:
Honestly most people agree that Reaper GRENADES are totally inbalanced. The reaper is a base tier unit, it should not be able to have such a massive attack that makes every other unit bounce around. It's simply OP in the early stages.
Only ByuN can do this? Bullshit. Fact of a matter is that ByuN kind of invented it and made it perfect, but now many Terrans will follow his style. Also consider on lower levels certainly the Reaper micro is worse, but so is the defender's micro. It cancels out.
Solution: Make the grenade radius lower and make the 'bounce effect' smaller. Effect: Reapers can still be used effectively for harass, but they cannot be used against queens and other armored units anymore by throwing bullshit grenades.
Note that I was a Terran player before I stopped playing sc2, so this is not whining at all. I only care about interesting matches to watch, which are of course also more interesting matches to play... This is not a fact, this is pure assumption. 3 rax reaper was there since HOTS, maybe even earlier so how do you think Byun's championship will boost all other terrans skill to make them win more tournaments?
Amen. Agreed in 100%
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On November 07 2016 02:58 Aegwynn wrote:
Nobody screamed imbalance, Byun probably would win the series anyway but at least it could be a fun series.
As soon as Byun puts down the 2nd rax we all gonna know what will happen in the next minutes and the game will finish, there is no avoiding that or no counterplay exist. That is a problem. I personally no have problems vs 3 rax in my ladder games but it is so frustrating as a spectator. At least for me. Its ok if you enjoy jumping units around just because terran is winning.
I think this is the best way to express it.
Both Dark and Byun played all 3 MU:
Dark 3-0'd the foreigner prodigy (as TL said), and 3-0'd the Zerg that got Nerchio out of group stage in the same MU, and just beat the protoss who got out first of group stage (in the same group as Byun).
Buyn played one of the best series of the whole week end against TY, and defeated a consistent monster protoss.
Both showed a damn impressive run, and in the end Byun's one was even better, hence the final victory.
A big congrat to them.
Yet, I was more in awe in front of Byun-TY, than by the final, for the exact reason given in the quote.
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On November 07 2016 17:49 TheHumanLife wrote:
Honestly, when every single of Bronze league ~ Diamond league terrans micro reapers, they just die by pure a-moving speedlings. so these level players have 0 idea how 3 rax build is so crucial in TvZ in highest level. No offense, but this is true, if you are not high enough player, then you don't even know what's going on in pro level.
Ah ah ah..
As bad player (newly Diams T3)  , I couln't agree more with what you say.
When I try the 3rax reapers I die seven times on 10. My micro is not good so I want to go to mid game vs Z.
But at the highest lvl, all the games I can see from the very best terran players, the 3 rax reapers looks insanely hard to counter.
The problem is it is absolutly not an all in. The strat is to wall off with rax (for example on Galactic process) and take B2 and B3 during reapers harass. At the end of the early game, the T player have more bases and scv than his opponent and it is already the end.
Even as Terran player, I think reaper should be nerfed. the idea to remove heal regeneration is not bad at all.
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It was the best final to showcase whats still not right about Sc2.
IF you have sick micro AND multitask, Terran seems OP. Every year one or two Terran rise to this level with seemingly never ending streams of MMM out of the productionbuildings like it was Autocast, while being able to perfectly controll the "Whatever the meta tells you to make" Army at the front.
Byuns contribute to that stiyle are not the splits and not the Baneling focus, and not the Multidrops
Thats MKP, MMA, Taeja, Polt, Squirtly and iNnovations combined play into ONE single all mighty terran. Also he seems to just KNOW when there are banelings morphing left and right (almost like FlaSh knowing when you got to snipe the probe for the 3rd Nexus ..)
What Byun does best is actually his control of Medevacs, wich to be honest are not that smart.
Terran is best if played hard. Versus Zerg and Terran its a Matchup thats on the razors edge from the get go.
In TvT winning and Losing is sometimes random, even on the Highest of levels, wich was undenyably Ty vs Byun you dont really know "Why" it happend. Yes you can play sloppy, forget an upgrade...and such. Thats just the other guy being better... but in this MU there is TOO MUCH dynamic. The first successfull drop almost anytime sets the attacked player on the backfoot, on the other hand you can not "sit tight" and defend, because every 2 minutes there has to be anohter base. It's too chaotic to call it strategy.
Also with LotV Production "Stimmucide" Marines into Tanklines while dropping your Tanks is "good". I think its awful. With the patch comming, it will get a bit better (no medanks) but worse at the same time (Attack speed reduced, no dmg effect on light) so you just Drop the Tanks from your medevacs after Charging on your Opponents Tanks and siege them to clear up his Marines.
Byun lost basicly on KSS he ran out of MAP and there was traitor Mines that killed his own units.
To Zerg:
Zerg can make use of any unit in ther arsenal. Dark decides to make Lings/Blings and Queens for the first 10 Minutes and then get some Ultras. Wow. 6 Games, 4 Units used most of the game. Thanks to LotV and Byuns ability to always poke Dark never hat the chance to Flank the Bio, or Clear reinforcments. So Dark Lings are not better than Bronze League player Lings.
You cant Make more of them, without positioning
Zergs are mostly stupid. If it was not for TLO I'd lose all hope. Give them 8 Range queens, and they immedietly cross of "Mutalisk" from their minds. Give Em 8 Armor ultras and they mindlessly rush to Hive every game.
Well Too bad if you have Byuns Medevac Life-Insurance, he gets 4 or 6 in his main army, and NEVER loses them while constantly trading the scummy lings and snipes the Banes simply bleeding out the Zerg.
I am glad they want to buff the hydra, because zerg players always need that friendly reminder, that there is an 9 Range high dps Anti-Air unit...that kills Medevacs, and is not all too bad against MM either...
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Pretty unimpressive. Perfect showcase what is going wrong. When I watch this I know why SC2 is not popular.
- Perfectly defended reapers with zero drones lost doesn't allow dark to punish the terran for his all-in in any way.
- Ongoing fights of non-microable melee units on the defenders side vs. perfectly microable ranged units on the offenders side that even outclass the melee in mobility. Balanced out more or less with incredibly strong/op lategame units of zerg. It is painful to watch.
- Skip of midgame altogether.
- We continue to see 80% bio army max mobility terran gameplay and an immobile forced into defence with inferior units until lategame Z. This matchup has devolved from muta/ling/bane into queen/ling/bane into lategame units. Can any other units such as e.g. roaches/ravagers/hydras even get a viable spot in any metagame against such an overpowered bio + x composition?
- Game ending harrassment of terran & liberators that shut down whole eco lines for long periods of times. Yawn.
- Zerg counter attacks all useless as they increase the risk to just die instant to the next few attacks, which is usually initiated by losing the first hatch as a reward for e.g. taking out 9 scv with 4 banelings. Especially baneling vs. SCV trades are useless unless you are already ahead, what you kind of are if you can defend the terran's attacks without those lings/banes used for runbys/drops usually, or the terran misses his timings on lower levels of play.
I could continue beating the dead horse but at this point I am not only bored of playing and watching this but even of commenting on it.
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On November 07 2016 21:39 LSN wrote:
I could continue beating the dead horse but at this point I am not only bored of playing and watching this but even of commenting on it.
Gread idea, since your post is complete nonsense.
The amount of people not giving Byun credit for his impressive play is just way too high. And that's what's wrong with SC2 these days, too many people complain no matter what instead of enjoying the game.
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so amazing a T can win ,there is just two!!!
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On November 07 2016 23:37 JoeCool wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2016 21:39 LSN wrote:
I could continue beating the dead horse but at this point I am not only bored of playing and watching this but even of commenting on it. Gread idea, since your post is complete nonsense. The amount of people not giving Byun credit for his impressive play is just way too high. And that's what's wrong with SC2 these days, too many people complain no matter what instead of enjoying the game.
It's not true - thats a typical "end-discussion-leftist-point". Byun is impressive, he is amazing and deserved the win. But that doesn't change the fact thats reapers are way to strong in the early game. As I said, the unit is designed to be a scouting unit and distract the zerg from ONLY building drones in the early game, Z have to build 4-8 lings to handle a single reaper !
Its not supposed to be a game ending unit, like it is right know with good micro. The main problem is that Z cannot take a third. So Z goes hardly behind in the midgame and from that point its just a downplay by a good T. Dark went 2-3 games EARLY POOL - to be safe against stuff like this. So he was well prepared but didn't had any chance...
My suggestion would be :
Reaper cost 75/25 and no healing.
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France12775 Posts
I guess the place is better when lurkers just do that wow.
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On November 07 2016 15:19 FvRGg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2016 13:31 Liquid`Snute wrote:
TLO the genius just told me a fix to all our problems: limited use grenades. maybe 5 grenades and then there's no more ^-^ sounds good to me imo. Can we not just remove the regen now? I mean personally I feel that the reaper changes including grenades were pretty cool additions. But the reason reapers scale so well up to 10 is that they stay alive and heal. If regen was not there, byun would have not been able to keep dark at bay for quite so long & I feel that may strike a good balance now
Might as well remove Mutalisk regen too while you're at it, for the same reasons.
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EPT
