EPTReapers are in bad state already (outside of early game they are useless, and they are not as strong early game as you make it up to be), and the fact that TY lost to a similar build as well further shows that those in Kespa house didn't practice early game enough, or not with good enough micro players.
ByuN wins WCS Finals over Dark 4-2 - Page 13
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
Reapers are in bad state already (outside of early game they are useless, and they are not as strong early game as you make it up to be), and the fact that TY lost to a similar build as well further shows that those in Kespa house didn't practice early game enough, or not with good enough micro players. | ||
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FrostbitethundeR
Malaysia28 Posts
Kudos and Congratulations on winning the championship title, Byun! Good Game and very well Played! =) | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On November 08 2016 23:06 Poopi wrote: and the fact that TY lost to a similar build as well further shows that those in Kespa house didn't practice early game enough, or not with good enough micro players. That's bullshit. TY had a build order loss. He was fast expanding against a 3-rax proxy. He should have died pretty quickly considering it was ByuN who was microing the reapers. Instead he randomly dies at some point 3 minutes later after actually stabilizing because he moved his units out of position for no reason. But at any rate, it has nothing to do with not practicing enough - you can practice this a million times and still mess up the one time that it counts. I rest my case, reapers are atrocious for TvT early game because they have the highest micro potential and free healing. It's no wonder Zerg feels the pain as well. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
The fact that he had a build order loss actually proves the point. If you practice enough on each map you don't get a BO loss against fucking 3 rax reapers which is out since probably beta, and at least early LotV, you adjust your scouting pattern or play more conservatively depending on your build. | ||
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Kaizor
Singapore909 Posts
On November 08 2016 20:14 RaFox17 wrote: Everything is not black and white. A unit can be too powerful without removing one race out of tournaments. Just like ultras can be too strong and terrans can still exist. The point is that they are one of the reasons for the terrible state of TvZ at the moment. Terran is heavily favored and has the mobility advantage until zerg can turtle into ultras and then has the advantage. What is wrong with your understanding? I did not say zergs do not exist anymore. I am saying that terran representation in premier and major tournaments have been the lowest throughout the year. If you still do not understand what that means, let me put it in simpler terms ok. If terran reaper is so OP and as statistics have shown the winrate for TvP has been slightly in favor of terran for most of the year, Why isn't there more terrans qualifying for tournaments? Why hasn't there been more terran champions?? Since they are obviously gonna abuse reapers against zerg and statistics are showing them slightly favored against protoss in the current meta. WhY??? Because it is not as big of an issue as people have been making it to be after one damn finals. And terrible state of tvz is very VERY subjective. For every person who said that the finals was terrible and they didn't enjoy it, i can find another person who said they enjoyed it. For me at least, it was the most entertaining finals in recent years. Yes it is mostly correct that if terran doesn't do any early damage or zerg has to turtle until end game. But what makes that terrible? Because you just don't like it? I am sorry man, you not liking it doesn't mean a thing is terrible. Let me give you an example, i do not enjoy the way korean food is cooked and then i claim that it is terrible because it is not cooked in the way i want it to be. Does that make any sense? Unless you have somehow done a poll for all the 100 thousand viewers who tuned in for the finals and have found that more than 50% think it was terrible, that is a unsubstantial claim with absolutely nothing to back it up. Beliefs do not confirm anything. You need numbers, evidence, proof ! | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On November 08 2016 23:50 Poopi wrote: How is that bullshit? The fact that he had a build order loss actually proves the point. If you practice enough on each map you don't get a BO loss against fucking 3 rax reapers which is out since probably beta, and at least early LotV, you adjust your scouting pattern or play more conservatively depending on your build. Practicing enough on each map doesn't mean you don't get build order losses anymore. It's exactly because of practicing the maps a lot and knowing your opponents that you get confident enough to take certain risks. In the WESG qualifiers, TY went CC first on Apotheosis against INnoVation. If INnoVation went for a proxy TY would have been outright dead. But against any regular build it was perfectly safe because of the rush distance on Apotheosis. TY didn't expect ByuN to cheese him, he didn't consider that at all so he didn't play around it. Probably neither of them proxies when they play each other on ladder and such. You can even see when his scout is in ByuN's main and he checks every corner of the base before accepting that he actually got proxied and cancelling his CC. But despite the late scout and ByuN's godlike reaper micro that game, TY actually got into a position where he could have stabilized (until he lifted the viking and moved all his other units down his ramp and subsequently died). And that to me is definitely the mark of someone who has practiced against this quite a bit. | ||
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RaFox17
Finland4581 Posts
On November 09 2016 00:52 Kaizor wrote: What is wrong with your understanding? I did not say zergs do not exist anymore. I am saying that terran representation in premier and major tournaments have been the lowest throughout the year. If you still do not understand what that means, let me put it in simpler terms ok. If terran reaper is so OP and as statistics have shown the winrate for TvP has been slightly in favor of terran for most of the year, Why isn't there more terrans qualifying for tournaments? Why hasn't there been more terran champions?? Since they are obviously gonna abuse reapers against zerg and statistics are showing them slightly favored against protoss in the current meta. WhY??? Because it is not as big of an issue as people have been making it to be after one damn finals. And terrible state of tvz is very VERY subjective. For every person who said that the finals was terrible and they didn't enjoy it, i can find another person who said they enjoyed it. For me at least, it was the most entertaining finals in recent years. Yes it is mostly correct that if terran doesn't do any early damage or zerg has to turtle until end game. But what makes that terrible? Because you just don't like it? I am sorry man, you not liking it doesn't mean a thing is terrible. Let me give you an example, i do not enjoy the way korean food is cooked and then i claim that it is terrible because it is not cooked in the way i want it to be. Does that make any sense? Unless you have somehow done a poll for all the 100 thousand viewers who tuned in for the finals and have found that more than 50% think it was terrible, that is a unsubstantial claim with absolutely nothing to back it up. Beliefs do not confirm anything. You need numbers, evidence, proof ! I did not say that every person thinks TvZ is terrible nor did i mention the finals in any way which makes your attack on my understanding questionable. You are right that you did not say that zerg do not exist but you said that if the reaper is OP then zerg winrates should be about 10% which is almost like the race did not exist. I was trying to say that slight imbalance or a unit being to strong does not mean that win rates drop to that level (10%). Also my biggest problem with the reaper is in its design (regen, speed, cliff jump etc.) and overall i have a problem with TvZ. In conclusion i was trying to say that if the reaper is op it does not lead to Z having 10% win rate as you said. As a terran you must remember that even in the blink era win rates were not that dire. My response was to your claim that imbalance would show itself as terrible win rates for Z or there is no possibility of imbalance or a problem with the reaper. | ||
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SpaWnvERtiGO
110 Posts
Now.......you are wrong. Those were NOT build order losses. Like LOLOLOLOLOL? That was just decent Terran play, and bad, no CONSISTENT bad larvae management by Scarlett. I mean good lord, is this actually representative of what you guys want nerfed? I mean, that was TWO RAX reaper? And that sure as HELL wasn't any Byun level micro. Or any really great multi-tasking or strategy. Scarlett was too greedy for her own good. Considering she's been in Korea, she looked kinda bad. Not Nerchio level, maybe a notch below True? Please tell me you got something else..... | ||
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loko822
54 Posts
to the reaper discussion: How many weeks and months Terrans had to loose to adepts withouth nothing significant beeing changed? Eventually the game balanced itself through players learning how to deal with it. It did take quite a while imo and the reaper vs Z complaints here arent based on half as many games. I watched literally everything competitive this year and I rewatched alot while working on my 2016 highlight video and yes, there are a solid amount of instances where reapers seem to win games/series'. You could say Uthermal won half the IEM with reapers. TY and Byun sneaked in wins here and there. I just dont see the samplesize though beeing big enough to get a final opinion on the matter. Its also one of those playstyles that naturally favors the aggressor because he probably played these games more often than the defender. Just like Has still wins here and there with cannon rushes although in that case even everybody knows its happening. And that is a guy winning that in a normal game stands no chance against most opponents he faces. That isnt really true for Uthermal, TY and Byun at least the last two most of the time are actually heavily favored against there Z opponents no matter what strategy they use. Uthermal also showed macro games on his way to IEM victory and still won vs Snute, Violet and Elazer. So maybe he was just better that day... Overall I would be just a bit careful with calling things op to fast, even though I understand the point of view as I cant resist doing that myself more often than not. Regarding Z behind in eco cause reapers: I still havent gotten or figured out an explanation why Zs are fine beeing behind P in eco in LOTV almost until both are fully saturated, when it was Z beeing ahead throughout WOL and HOTS. There you guys found a way to compete maybe theres one too in those ZvT scenarios where your behind. Idk. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
It's hard to use, sure but if you use it well the enemy cannot really do anything about it. That's not a problem with one or two reapers because the cooldown prevents it, but if you have enough you can throw grenades 24/7. Add the healing factor and the mobility and you might understand why it's a ridiculous unit for the early game. As i said somewhere else in this thread, blizzard wanted reapers to be a thing in the midgame. It isn't. Why? Because you simply cannot micro everything at once there (the grenades therefore are basically useless) and the mobility is a nonfactor as well (medivacs) No, noone here wants to diminish Byun's achievement, he deserved to win it. BUT reapers still managed to destroy games and that shouldn't happen quite frankly. Who wants to see that really? Game 5 was the best game by far, games like that should be more common in LOTV, they are not though. | ||
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Aegwynn
Italy460 Posts
On November 09 2016 01:42 SpaWnvERtiGO wrote: I watched the games, they were pretty good, thnx for that... Now.......you are wrong. Those were NOT build order losses. Like LOLOLOLOLOL? That was just decent Terran play, and bad, no CONSISTENT bad larvae management by Scarlett. I mean good lord, is this actually representative of what you guys want nerfed? I mean, that was TWO RAX reaper? And that sure as HELL wasn't any Byun level micro. Or any really great multi-tasking or strategy. Scarlett was too greedy for her own good. Considering she's been in Korea, she looked kinda bad. Not Nerchio level, maybe a notch below True? Please tell me you got something else..... If there was a zerg build that counters 3 rax reaper, than yes it would be a build order lost. But there is none, so its autolose not a build order lose. Dark went pool first everygame without losing single drone but still lost the game. i am sure you will find some excuse for every game i posted here, there are 50 others you can find in youtube, go ahead. And some guys here complaining about zerg being op, if it is true, is it a good way to balance the matchup with reapers? Note: Its so messy with vods how can i just share the urls ? | ||
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
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vInSMoke
9 Posts
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
Moan. Complain Whine Bitch Repeat then Congratulations to Byun. | ||
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
On November 09 2016 01:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: People here don't seem to understand that reaper grenades basically are like forcefields in that good usage of the ability prevents micro from the opponent. It's hard to use, sure but if you use it well the enemy cannot really do anything about it. That's not a problem with one or two reapers because the cooldown prevents it, but if you have enough you can throw grenades 24/7. Add the healing factor and the mobility and you might understand why it's a ridiculous unit for the early game. As i said somewhere else in this thread, blizzard wanted reapers to be a thing in the midgame. It isn't. Why? Because you simply cannot micro everything at once there (the grenades therefore are basically useless) and the mobility is a nonfactor as well (medivacs) No, noone here wants to diminish Byun's achievement, he deserved to win it. BUT reapers still managed to destroy games and that shouldn't happen quite frankly. Who wants to see that really? Game 5 was the best game by far, games like that should be more common in LOTV, they are not though. You can actually micro around them, unlike forcefield. I'm pretty sure Life would have been pretty fine against such builds. | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On November 09 2016 09:21 Poopi wrote: You can actually micro around them, unlike forcefield. I'm pretty sure Life would have been pretty fine against such builds. Just stick with the games we saw, dont come with hypothetical sh.., I dont even care who wins this but that mass reaper early agresion is something really ugly to watch, I remember one game where the zerg attacked from three angles and he was owned by the grenades and the reapers jumping. | ||
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hssdgc
China24 Posts
That ByuN vs TY matches were werid. I expected an epic series but TY was just extremely unlucky. | ||
Waxangel
United States33399 Posts
off-season goals should be to ban a fuckton of people | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Poopi
France12886 Posts
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