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the most ridiculous thing about this list is having zest as high as 11
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France12863 Posts
On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote:
Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's. Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament? Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do. No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons  He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event.
Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
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On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote:
Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's. Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament? Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do. No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that 
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France12863 Posts
On October 06 2016 19:43 Phredxor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote:
Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's. Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament? Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do. No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo. Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
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United States23455 Posts
As a guy who has barely been following SC2 recently these PRs are crazy. Seems like an interesting time
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On October 06 2016 23:46 Darkhorse wrote:
As a guy who has barely been following SC2 recently these PRs are crazy. Seems like an interesting time
Was Byun still ghostking last time you saw him play?
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United States23455 Posts
On October 07 2016 00:56 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 23:46 Darkhorse wrote:
As a guy who has barely been following SC2 recently these PRs are crazy. Seems like an interesting time Was Byun still ghostking last time you saw him play?
I'm not that ancient history 
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On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:
He [Elazer] is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
Nerchio is 83–31 (72.81%) in games and 36–6 (85.71%) in matches against Elazer.
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France12863 Posts
On October 07 2016 02:07 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:
He [Elazer] is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. Nerchio is 83–31 (72.81%) in games and 36–6 (85.71%) in matches against Elazer.
Doesn't change the fact that Elazer has a better shot than many others at beating Nerchio. You can ask the man himself and he'd probably rather fight foreigner P/T other than Neeb and uThermal / maybe MlorD, than Elazer.
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On October 07 2016 02:07 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:
He [Elazer] is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. Nerchio is 83–31 (72.81%) in games and 36–6 (85.71%) in matches against Elazer.
Elazer did beat Nerchio in two of their most recent series though.
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Elazer is also one of the few people nerchio has mentioned as really good
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On October 06 2016 22:50 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 19:43 Phredxor wrote:On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
[quote]
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do. No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo. Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
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France12863 Posts
On October 07 2016 03:04 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 22:50 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 19:43 Phredxor wrote:On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
[quote]
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do. No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo. Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better. I don't think those two are logically equivalent. You're saying that Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense? If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year. Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well. As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well. None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
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1 Dark
2 Stats
3 TY
4 Solar
5 Byun
6 Nerchio
7 Zest
8 Neeb
9 Dear
10 Snute
11 Patience
12 Showtime
13 Polt
14 Elazer
15 True
16 Violet
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On October 07 2016 03:16 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2016 03:04 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 22:50 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 19:43 Phredxor wrote:On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote:[quote] No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo. Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better. I don't think those two are logically equivalent. You're saying that Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense? If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year. Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well. As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well. None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat. I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest. Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
That is true. Of course, you can also say that Elazer similarly didn't demonstrate that much either. It was enough to make Blizzcon but likely not too much else.
What do you mean Aligulac agrees? It just shows ranking not WCS points. And even if the foreigner ranking on aligulac did mean something, it has uThermal up there above Elazer. Even though Nerchio believes Elazer is really strong, it's not necessarily something we can quantify or prove. A lot of Korean pros have said that, I think it was Trust or something, that certain Korean players are really good, and yet we don't see them performing very well. Someone saying that someone else is really good is not really a measure of their talent or results.
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
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France12863 Posts
On October 07 2016 05:04 FrkFrJss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2016 03:16 Poopi wrote:On October 07 2016 03:04 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 22:50 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 19:43 Phredxor wrote:On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote:
[quote]
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks. Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo. Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better. I don't think those two are logically equivalent. You're saying that Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense? If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year. Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well. As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well. None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat. I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest. Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want? I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
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On October 07 2016 06:34 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2016 05:04 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 07 2016 03:16 Poopi wrote:On October 07 2016 03:04 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 22:50 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 19:43 Phredxor wrote:On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 08:45 FrkFrJss wrote:On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote:On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote:
[quote]
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong.
I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem.
Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there. He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ. I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it. Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments. So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory. Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing. It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo. Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better. I don't think those two are logically equivalent. You're saying that Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense? If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year. Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well. As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well. None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat. I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest. Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want? I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times. But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
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Neeb
Nerchio 
ByuN
EPT
