Hey guys it's me again. Today Kespa Cup ended and thus the last big tournament before Blizzcon. I decided to do this Community Power Ranking a little bit sooner so we hopefully also have more participants! This time we will also have some foreigners in the list, will be interesting to see where you guys put em!
To be clear: The list should reflect your opinion on the current strength of players attending blizzcon. This is NOT dependant on knowing groups/brackets.
What is special about this one?
Blizzcon is starting soon (only one month left!). I thought it would be interesting to do another Blizzcon edition instead of a normal one. Only players who participate at Blizzcon are allowed, from place 1 to place 16*. Any list which contains a player who isn't part of Blizzcon or has less than 16 total players won't be counted towards the end result. You can see the list of players here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_WCS_Global_Playoffs_and_Finals
* Hydra announced that he won't attend Blizzcon which means that both Elazer and violet have the chance to participate!
So how would it work?
It's pretty simple, just post your top 16 in this thread. I will go through every post and add the points up. The point distribution will be like that:
1. place = 16 points 2. place = 15 points 3. place = 14 points etc.
How much time do i have to post the list?
You will have three weeks, which means i will count every list which is posted till October 25. (Time left to make a list: )
Feel free to discuss your rankings in this thread, if you have extra passion you also can write a short text for your favorite player and post it in here as well (it would be used for the final standings)
Reminder: You can change your list as often as you like, but i will only count the first list you posted in this thread (which means you should edit your post )
On October 03 2016 22:38 Musicus wrote: Gonna take some time to think about it, hopefully I won't forget about it.
Hydra and Polt seem too high on your list Charoisaur .
They definitely are. Neither of them looked nearly as dominant as last year, and I believe a lot of foreign players have a positive/equal score vs them in LotV.
1. Byun 2. Dark 3. Ty 4. Neeb 5. Stats 6. Patience 7. Solar 8. Nerchio 9. Dear 10. Snute 11. Zest 12. Polt 13. Showtime 14. True 15. Hydra 16. elazer/violet (I think them and hydra just dire. Although Polt and Hydra are all about form)
Hydra announced that he won't attend Blizzcon, both violet and Elazer should have the chance to participate now! Pls check your lists and change them accordingly, thanks!
Feels really weird putting Polt down that low, but its hard to gauge where he really will be at considering his lack of results lately, and whether he is on or off.
Only do that if you actually think it is true pls, we want a good list at the end I won't censor any list (unless it doesn't meet the requirements in the op) but at the end of the day i want to have a power ranking which is reasonable.
On October 05 2016 02:00 BisuDagger wrote: To Ez (I'm the staffer that had 100% predictions for the ASL from ro8 to finals including my 3-0 prediction of Flash over Last :D) 1. viOLet 2. Elazer 3. Patience 4. ShoWTimE 5. Nerchio 6. Snute 7. Polt 8. Dear 9. Solar 10. Zest 11. Dark 12. ByuN 13. Stats 14. TRUE 15. Neeb 16. TY
On October 05 2016 02:00 BisuDagger wrote: To Ez (I'm the staffer that had 100% predictions for the ASL from ro8 to finals including my 3-0 prediction of Flash over Last :D) 1. viOLet 2. Elazer 3. Patience 4. ShoWTimE 5. Nerchio 6. Snute 7. Polt 8. Dear 9. Solar 10. Zest 11. Dark 12. ByuN 13. Stats 14. TRUE 15. Neeb 16. TY
1. Dark (even many Korean progamers saying he is the best player right now. ByuN said he hopes he doesn't play Dark in crossfinal before SSL2 final happens, TY interviewed he was glad that Dark was not in Kespa Cup and Dark is the only pro TY wants to avoid, Nerchio interviewed Dark is the current best zerg right now.) But I think Dark can be eliminated in zvz or zvp, but I really don't see any terran take down him in zvt in bo5 or 7. Everyone in Korean community said ByuN was really good to go 2-3 against Dark in crossfinal lol
I have to ask with the power ranking. Is this like college football where we predict/assume the #1 ranked player will win Blizzcon and the #9-16 players will be eliminated in the first round? Or is this more like college basketball where we rank based on our fandom and it is separate from our bracket predictions?
On October 05 2016 13:10 coverpunch wrote: I have to ask with the power ranking. Is this like college football where we predict/assume the #1 ranked player will win Blizzcon and the #9-16 players will be eliminated in the first round? Or is this more like college basketball where we rank based on our fandom and it is separate from our bracket predictions?
This isn't based on any bracket. Post the list so the player on number one is the "best" and the on number 16 is the "worst". Who is the strongest player overall?
I updated my list excluding Hydra. I might change it before the deadline since there'll be some more tourneys to consider. I made sure not to overrate Neeb, I didn't consider groups that much yet.
Polt I'm counting on you playing super well and foreigner zergs I count on you trashing Dark in ZvZ or something.
You can automatically TLPD-ize your list by selecting your whole list then clicking on the hydralisk icon on the right by the way! It's really neat, didn't know you had nothing more to do.
On October 05 2016 19:17 Poopi wrote: You can automatically TLPD-ize your list by selecting your whole list then clicking on the hydralisk icon on the right by the way! It's really neat, didn't know you had nothing more to do.
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
Its more the nature of the event rather than the fact its Korea. Neeb only fought protoss in the whole thing (and 2 very bad Zergs) and did the same strat almost every time, with the disruptor stalker battles. It would be much harder for him to have won one of the WCS cups that have more players and more variety.
He played great in all of them though I'm not denying that, and he is eeeeasily the best foreigner. But I'd rate him behind any of the koreans at blizzcon except maybe patience and dear in PvP.
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
Its more the nature of the event rather than the fact its Korea. Neeb only fought protoss in the whole thing (and 2 very bad Zergs) and did the same strat almost every time, with the disruptor stalker battles. It would be much harder for him to have won one of the WCS cups that have more players and more variety.
He played great in all of them though I'm not denying that, and he is eeeeasily the best foreigner. But I'd rate him behind any of the koreans at blizzcon except maybe patience and dear in PvP.
But if Pet's really bad, what does that make True or Dark? Admittedly, it was only a single series, but a lot of other people who were suppose to do well failed, and a lot of people, including Neeb, who weren't supposed to do well, made the finals.
Solar and TY might be favoured, but look at how they went out against Trap. They looked unconvincing for people who were supposed to do way better than Trap.
And finally, Neeb played 5 people. How many people would he have played in WCS summer? 5 people. Now, you are correct in saying that he played only specific matchups, but bracket luck is part of any tournament. I think it's actually even more significant that Neeb played one style. He played a single style against Protoss and beat them in micro because they knew it was coming and still couldn't stop him.
However, I definitely agree that he played against primarily one style of opponent, the Korean style, which is quite different than the foreigner style of playing.
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
Its more the nature of the event rather than the fact its Korea. Neeb only fought protoss in the whole thing (and 2 very bad Zergs) and did the same strat almost every time, with the disruptor stalker battles. It would be much harder for him to have won one of the WCS cups that have more players and more variety.
He played great in all of them though I'm not denying that, and he is eeeeasily the best foreigner. But I'd rate him behind any of the koreans at blizzcon except maybe patience and dear in PvP.
But if Pet's really bad, what does that make True or Dark? Admittedly, it was only a single series, but a lot of other people who were suppose to do well failed, and a lot of people, including Neeb, who weren't supposed to do well, made the finals.
Solar and TY might be favoured, but look at how they went out against Trap. They looked unconvincing for people who were supposed to do way better than Trap.
And finally, Neeb played 5 people. How many people would he have played in WCS summer? 5 people. Now, you are correct in saying that he played only specific matchups, but bracket luck is part of any tournament. I think it's actually even more significant that Neeb played one style. He played a single style against Protoss and beat them in micro because they knew it was coming and still couldn't stop him.
However, I definitely agree that he played against primarily one style of opponent, the Korean style, which is quite different than the foreigner style of playing.
You can be "bad" and beat better players in bo3 mirrors in online qualifiers, that's within the expected variance of the game, tbh.
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
Its more the nature of the event rather than the fact its Korea. Neeb only fought protoss in the whole thing (and 2 very bad Zergs) and did the same strat almost every time, with the disruptor stalker battles. It would be much harder for him to have won one of the WCS cups that have more players and more variety.
He played great in all of them though I'm not denying that, and he is eeeeasily the best foreigner. But I'd rate him behind any of the koreans at blizzcon except maybe patience and dear in PvP.
But if Pet's really bad, what does that make True or Dark? Admittedly, it was only a single series, but a lot of other people who were suppose to do well failed, and a lot of people, including Neeb, who weren't supposed to do well, made the finals.
Solar and TY might be favoured, but look at how they went out against Trap. They looked unconvincing for people who were supposed to do way better than Trap.
And finally, Neeb played 5 people. How many people would he have played in WCS summer? 5 people. Now, you are correct in saying that he played only specific matchups, but bracket luck is part of any tournament. I think it's actually even more significant that Neeb played one style. He played a single style against Protoss and beat them in micro because they knew it was coming and still couldn't stop him.
However, I definitely agree that he played against primarily one style of opponent, the Korean style, which is quite different than the foreigner style of playing.
Dark and Solar are still better than Pet. Online qualifiers and bo1-3 can always go the other way. The game isnt 100% winrate for anyone. TY, Solar, and Patience, are better players than Trap thats for sure. But he still beat them due to variance of it all and simply performance on the day. That and the broken map pool blah blah let's not get into that
Neeb in WCS would have played all bo5 until finals, against players experienced with him and from the same region/meta. And also its luck whether he meets good Zerg/terran player or not, he probably would. So yeah it id say should be much harder for him to win in one of those.
Tbh I'm quite surprised the Koreans tried to out micro him with disruptors, he was waaay better with them (obviously cause they're his playstyle from his meta). Considering the one time Stats used pheonixes he destroyed him (then decides not to do it again??).
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
Its more the nature of the event rather than the fact its Korea. Neeb only fought protoss in the whole thing (and 2 very bad Zergs) and did the same strat almost every time, with the disruptor stalker battles. It would be much harder for him to have won one of the WCS cups that have more players and more variety.
He played great in all of them though I'm not denying that, and he is eeeeasily the best foreigner. But I'd rate him behind any of the koreans at blizzcon except maybe patience and dear in PvP.
But if Pet's really bad, what does that make True or Dark? Admittedly, it was only a single series, but a lot of other people who were suppose to do well failed, and a lot of people, including Neeb, who weren't supposed to do well, made the finals.
Solar and TY might be favoured, but look at how they went out against Trap. They looked unconvincing for people who were supposed to do way better than Trap.
And finally, Neeb played 5 people. How many people would he have played in WCS summer? 5 people. Now, you are correct in saying that he played only specific matchups, but bracket luck is part of any tournament. I think it's actually even more significant that Neeb played one style. He played a single style against Protoss and beat them in micro because they knew it was coming and still couldn't stop him.
However, I definitely agree that he played against primarily one style of opponent, the Korean style, which is quite different than the foreigner style of playing.
Dark and Solar are still better than Pet. Online qualifiers and bo1-3 can always go the other way. The game isnt 100% winrate for anyone. TY, Solar, and Patience, are better players than Trap thats for sure. But he still beat them due to variance of it all and simply performance on the day.
It's also preparation. From the players who reached the top 4, Neeb and Stats just played very strongly executed standard games. Meanwhile TY and Trap (outside of PvP) played extremely well prepared and well thought out builds that aren't really meta.
On October 05 2016 21:33 KalWarkov wrote: hilarious how many overrate Neeb. Let him win a WCS event first or show some consistancy on THAT level.
Yes, he is a top 3 foreigner, it is debateable that he is the best foreigner. but guys, he is nowhere near top 3 or 4 in this ranking.
That's the first time I've ever seen someone rate a WCS tournament as higher than a Korean tournament, but to each his own. Like...Neeb just made history.
This is a really tough power ranking to do, because in certain matchups, I feel like some people are above others but below other people in different matchups.
Like for instance? TY and Stats, both very good players, but the way TY lost to Trap was pretty bad, and Neeb dominated Stats. On the other hand, if TY were to face a Zerg, he might look pretty good, and Stats at the very least didn't look terrible against Maru.
Its more the nature of the event rather than the fact its Korea. Neeb only fought protoss in the whole thing (and 2 very bad Zergs) and did the same strat almost every time, with the disruptor stalker battles. It would be much harder for him to have won one of the WCS cups that have more players and more variety.
He played great in all of them though I'm not denying that, and he is eeeeasily the best foreigner. But I'd rate him behind any of the koreans at blizzcon except maybe patience and dear in PvP.
But if Pet's really bad, what does that make True or Dark? Admittedly, it was only a single series, but a lot of other people who were suppose to do well failed, and a lot of people, including Neeb, who weren't supposed to do well, made the finals.
Solar and TY might be favoured, but look at how they went out against Trap. They looked unconvincing for people who were supposed to do way better than Trap.
And finally, Neeb played 5 people. How many people would he have played in WCS summer? 5 people. Now, you are correct in saying that he played only specific matchups, but bracket luck is part of any tournament. I think it's actually even more significant that Neeb played one style. He played a single style against Protoss and beat them in micro because they knew it was coming and still couldn't stop him.
However, I definitely agree that he played against primarily one style of opponent, the Korean style, which is quite different than the foreigner style of playing.
Dark and Solar are still better than Pet. Online qualifiers and bo1-3 can always go the other way. The game isnt 100% winrate for anyone. TY, Solar, and Patience, are better players than Trap thats for sure. But he still beat them due to variance of it all and simply performance on the day. That and the broken map pool blah blah let's not get into that
Neeb in WCS would have played all bo5 until finals, against players experienced with him and from the same region/meta. And also its luck whether he meets good Zerg/terran player or not, he probably would. So yeah it id say should be much harder for him to win in one of those.
Tbh I'm quite surprised the Koreans tried to out micro him with disruptors, he was waaay better with them (obviously cause they're his playstyle from his meta). Considering the one time Stats used pheonixes he destroyed him (then decides not to do it again??).
First, I do agree with you that Patience, TY, and Solar are better players. I think then, the question is how much. Because the thing is, I don't really buy that simple variance along with better performance enabled Trap, who has accomplished very little this year, to beat out some of the best players of the year. I think that the skill level between these players on a given day, is decently close. Of course this doesn't meant that Trap will do well in individual leagues but on a given series, he has a decentish chance of taking it.
Similarly, I don't buy that simple luck and familiarity with builds and meta were the main things that enabled Neeb to win. If this were so, then foreigners would have done better in 2015 and perhaps won more than one tournament against a large number of foreigners and comparatively few Koreans (I'm not counting WCS as the large majority were foreigners). Korean and foreigner meta have been fairly diverse even in the 2013/2014 days because the top, top Koreans generally stayed in Korea (though of course with exceptions like Polt, Bomber, MC, and Taeja among others).
I think that Neeb won through his ability to micro/macro, and being able to keep a calm temperament throughout the tournament. I believe that this is the primary reason he won along with a lucky bracket and favourable metas.
Besides, if we can discount (if ever so slightly) Neeb's wins, then we can similarly discount his losses. Neeb's nerves and poor play have definitely contributed to his losses in WCS. When he played and lost against Hydra, Snute, MarineLord, uThermal, and Polt, it can be argued that he really didn't play all that well in those series. I can attest to watching the uThermal final and being particularly disappointed with his lackluster play. Neeb has beaten all of these players a number of times (primarily online but also some of them offline), with notable examples being his destruction of Hydra and lesser destruction of uThermal after his tournament losses to them. (And of course, the opposite argument being that his opponents played well against him)
What I'm saying is that I do not think his performance in Kespa Cup or his lack of performance in WCS can be attributed to simple things like bracket luck and metas. While those things do affect people being familiar with his play or being unfamiliar with his play, I would put more stock into performance and ability rather than more extraneous factors. Also, Neeb is weaker against more aggressive plays (at least by T and Z), and foreigners have a tendency to pull off more aggressive builds as well.
As a note on the lack of phoenix versus Neeb, I think he varied his play enough that them going stargate all the time would not have helped. Neeb did not blindly go disruptor all the time, though he did rely on this playstyle. I believe I recall a game against Trap where Trap tried to go stargate, and Neeb just killed him (I could be wrong though).
Stats is always underrated in my opinion. Solar and Byun are always a little bit overrated in my opinion, especially considering Byun only has one big tourney win. Zest and Polt are really hard to say, depends which version of them shows up. Definitely pissed that the tourney starts with a GSL style group stage. That is not enough games!!!! What is the rush? The 500,000 dollars with still be given out at the end!!!
On October 06 2016 04:15 Railgan wrote: Byun wins one GSL --> God
Trap is the finalst of a KespaCup --> not even top 20?
This is a list for the people who play at the Global Playoffs so Trap isn't really relevant.
On October 06 2016 04:01 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Definitely pissed that the tourney starts with a GSL style group stage. That is not enough games!!!! What is the rush? The 500,000 dollars with still be given out at the end!!!
The group stage means that there will be more games in total. Last year the Ro16 had 31 games. In a GSL style Ro16 group stage (BO3) you have 40 games minimum.
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
BTW, I haven't seen Stats rated 1 yet, so even if I'm not a KT fan, here we go!
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
That's not very accurate. He also qualified through EU qualifiers to the Golden Tournament in China, taking in fact 1st spot in the qualifiers. Even, if we disregard WCS points he has accumulated, which were earned just like any other player could, he was in semis of Homestory cup, he qualiied for WESG in Kiev in first place from polish qualifiers. His Aligulac rating is top 6 foreigner. He was very close to qualifing to the events that he did not participate in. All this shows high consistency. And all in all - there are very few foreign players that could qualify through polish qualifiers anywhere.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Stats is always underrated in my opinion. Solar and Byun are always a little bit overrated in my opinion, especially considering Byun only has one big tourney win. Zest and Polt are really hard to say, depends which version of them shows up. Definitely pissed that the tourney starts with a GSL style group stage. That is not enough games!!!! What is the rush? The 500,000 dollars with still be given out at the end!!!
You realize the GSL style results in more games right? At min we get 40 games from ro16 gsl. From round of 16 bracket we get min 24. At max its 60 and 40 respectively.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
I think you have something there. The truth is, if you take Neeb, Showtime, Nerchio, Elazer, uThermal, Masa, Ptitdrogo, Marinlord, Harstem.. their skill is pretty close and its impossible to say who will win. Korean players are also all within the reach of top foreign players. I'd say with the exception of Dark who is just amazing. However even he can fall to - say - Nerchio and Elazer.
It feels weird seeing people put Zest so highly when he's shown shit play after he won GSL. I ranked higher on current form than on overall results for the year which is why Polt/Zest is so low and Neeb/Snute/Stats are so high. To the people saying Neeb needs to win a GSL/SSL before he should be rated so highly, this is a blizzcon ranking and considering that Kespa has a very similiar format so I'd say that a high ranking is deserved
I feel like Stats and Dark have the edge over TY and ByuN in weekend-style tournaments. Both have been doing great in Crossfinals and Starleagues, with Stats having better results in the recent Kespa Cup. The order of TY, ByuN and Solar is completely interchangeable, all 3 being more consistent than Neeb over the course of the last months. Patience and Nerchio have been doing well for themselves lately and are experienced enough in weekend tournaments to show somewhat good results at Blizzcon. Zest has not looked good recently and Dear is hit or miss. Snute is pretty much on par with them, depending on his form. Everyone below him does not have a good enough chance to reach the Ro8 for them to be ranked higher.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote:
On October 05 2016 19:43 ejozl wrote: Fun fact best Blizzcon performance previously with players attending this Blizzcon is Polt and Dear with ro8's.
Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote: He [Elazer] is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
Nerchio is 83–31 (72.81%) in games and 36–6 (85.71%) in matches against Elazer.
On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote: He [Elazer] is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
Nerchio is 83–31 (72.81%) in games and 36–6 (85.71%) in matches against Elazer.
Doesn't change the fact that Elazer has a better shot than many others at beating Nerchio. You can ask the man himself and he'd probably rather fight foreigner P/T other than Neeb and uThermal / maybe MlorD, than Elazer.
On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote: He [Elazer] is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
Nerchio is 83–31 (72.81%) in games and 36–6 (85.71%) in matches against Elazer.
Elazer did beat Nerchio in two of their most recent series though.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On October 06 2016 05:23 EvilsPresley wrote: [quote] Nah, the fun fact is that Elazer qualified to Blizcon with his best performance ever in a circuit event being a fucking Ro8. How can it be a serious tournament?
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
On October 06 2016 05:31 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: [quote]
Because he was lucky that Hydra cannot play. But also because consistently qualifying for every event is difficult and it is something the winners like Drogo, uThermal and Harstem couldn't do.
No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
On October 06 2016 05:42 EvilsPresley wrote: [quote] No, he did qualify only for 1 event: WCS season 1, grabbing second spot of national qualifiers and then he was invited to S2 and S3 solely because he stayed barely top 8 after beating chinese/taiwanese players in previous seasons
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
That is true. Of course, you can also say that Elazer similarly didn't demonstrate that much either. It was enough to make Blizzcon but likely not too much else.
What do you mean Aligulac agrees? It just shows ranking not WCS points. And even if the foreigner ranking on aligulac did mean something, it has uThermal up there above Elazer. Even though Nerchio believes Elazer is really strong, it's not necessarily something we can quantify or prove. A lot of Korean pros have said that, I think it was Trust or something, that certain Korean players are really good, and yet we don't see them performing very well. Someone saying that someone else is really good is not really a measure of their talent or results.
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
On October 06 2016 05:47 ZigguratOfUr wrote: [quote]
He also qualified for the Gold Series International, and made it through the open bracket of all the Dreamhacks.
Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
On October 06 2016 06:00 EvilsPresley wrote: [quote] Not a Blizcon level of achievements to me, but I must be wrong. I'm salted to see this guy rated over Drogo, uThermal, Masa, Has and Harstem. Sorry for the off topic rant, I'll stop there.
He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
I actually wanted a single foreign terran at blizzcon. Unfortunately nobody made it, but so far, current top 4 foreigners are Neeb, Snute, Nerchio, and ShoWTimE for sure, and all of them made to blizzcon which is fine
On October 06 2016 06:40 Poopi wrote: [quote] He was more consistent and won his points fairly. In the end since his mean performance is worth more, we can expect him to perform better. Has, seriously? xD Drogo was consistent in his falling behind everyone else... Masa got better and better results but it wasn't enough... etc. The thing is that Z performed better at the start for X reasons especially in EU/NA, so T/P had to catch up later but they unfortunately couldn't do it. He is good at ZvZ tho so he has a better shot at beating Dark, who lost to Pet in bo3 (Blizzcon groups are bo3 right?), than everyone you quoted but uThermal maybe, as well as Nerchio who struggles in ZvZ.
I can understand the frustration for WCS KR because there were so little tourneys to actually play, but WCS had so many tourneys that if you didn't qualify (except maybe MLorD because he lost his points, maybe he could have done it otherwise?), you really didn't deserve it.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
And the ones you quoted haven't been great either. Plus you didn't understand what you yourself implied above :/.
Just from briefly looking through the tournaments, Elazer qualified for the latter half of the tournaments primarily through his points rather than any of the qualifiers, and in the latter half of the year, he played just well enough to reach the ro16 or a bit higher, but he would rarely place above that. So, he has overall been more consistent, with better performances earlier in the year, but he has not really performed amazingly. The thing with drogo, uThermal, and Harstem is that they all won tournaments, and Harstem won two tournaments.
So it's like someone who is good but not great all the time versus someone who is great only part of the time and asking which is the better player. For some people, consistency is a huge thing in determining who "deserves" what, and for other people, it's what they have accomplished. Kind of like how herO has been very consistent in the starleagues, but he has rarely shown an amazing performance with only an SSL victory.
Though, I must say that even without looking at results, I would rate Elazer way over drogo, Masa, and Has. Harstem it's a bit debateable, because Harstem has shown pretty decent results outside of the main WCS tournaments. It's just unfortunate because Elazer has had relatively "alright" results, and I only expect him to perform "alright" at Blizzcon. But hey, sOs barely made it in last year, and he won the whole thing.
It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
And the ones you quoted haven't been great either. Plus you didn't understand what you yourself implied above :/.
Please explain to me how the ones mentioned above haven't been great. (At least within the confines of the WCS season). Everyone except for violet and Elazer have won a tournament.
On October 06 2016 19:34 Poopi wrote: [quote] It doesn't change the fact that he earned more points. I don't think any of the players you quoted have been "great", keep in mind that they won foreign tournaments. Like Harstem beat an out of form (food poisoning or something? I don't really remember) Snute in the finals of the tourney, then the foreigners got kinda trashed in the KR vs World side event. Even on aligulac Elazer is among the best foreigners... while Harstem is worse than PtitDrogo.
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
And the ones you quoted haven't been great either. Plus you didn't understand what you yourself implied above :/.
Please explain to me how the ones mentioned above haven't been great. (At least within the confines of the WCS season). Everyone except for violet and Elazer have won a tournament.
Also, enlighten me as to what I implied above?
"I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times. " Isn't that obvious? Since some people who are not going to Blizzcon have won tourneys, they have, AT TIMES, performed better than every player in the top 8 (going to Blizzcon), since there is only one winner per tournament, so why bother only on Elazer since your stance applies to every player in the top 8?
Saying they only won foreign tournaments doesn't help your case when Elazer couldn't even do that
What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
And the ones you quoted haven't been great either. Plus you didn't understand what you yourself implied above :/.
Please explain to me how the ones mentioned above haven't been great. (At least within the confines of the WCS season). Everyone except for violet and Elazer have won a tournament.
Also, enlighten me as to what I implied above?
"I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times. " Isn't that obvious? Since some people who are not going to Blizzcon have won tourneys, they have, AT TIMES, performed better than every player in the top 8 (going to Blizzcon), since there is only one winner per tournament, so why bother only on Elazer since your stance applies to every player in the top 8?
Ah, I see. Ok that makes a lot of sense.
I will give you that, that those who are not going have certainly done better at times than those who are going (except for True...not much chance there).
However, the achievements that I've listed for the other 6 going to Blizzcon exceeds the achievements of drogo, Harstem, and uThermal. Not only have they all won a tournament, but their placings outside of a win have also been impressive.
I think you need to take a good look at Harstem/drogo/uThermal and compare whether their results are better that the ones I mentioned above.
I honestly have to question if you fully read the achievements of the people I mentioned earlier, because the comparison of achievements between the top 6 and Harstem/drogo/uThermal is far different than their comparison with Elazer/Violet.
On October 06 2016 22:50 Poopi wrote: [quote] What I mean is that hoping for a flashy win because they had a moment of brillance is a fallacy because it wasn't a spectacular performance such as Neeb displayed. Thus, if they shine again they would perform as well as regular Elazer, not better.
I don't think those two are logically equivalent.
You're saying that
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
And the ones you quoted haven't been great either. Plus you didn't understand what you yourself implied above :/.
Please explain to me how the ones mentioned above haven't been great. (At least within the confines of the WCS season). Everyone except for violet and Elazer have won a tournament.
Also, enlighten me as to what I implied above?
"I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times. " Isn't that obvious? Since some people who are not going to Blizzcon have won tourneys, they have, AT TIMES, performed better than every player in the top 8 (going to Blizzcon), since there is only one winner per tournament, so why bother only on Elazer since your stance applies to every player in the top 8?
Ah, I see. Ok that makes a lot of sense.
I will give you that, that those who are not going have certainly done better at times than those who are going (except for True...not much chance there).
However, the achievements that I've listed for the other 6 going to Blizzcon exceeds the achievements of drogo, Harstem, and uThermal. Not only have they all won a tournament, but their placings outside of a win have also been impressive.
I think you need to take a good look at Harstem/drogo/uThermal and compare whether their results are better that the ones I mentioned above.
I honestly have to question if you fully read the achievements of the people I mentioned earlier, because the comparison of achievements between the top 6 and Harstem/drogo/uThermal is far different than their comparison with Elazer/Violet.
It doesn't change the fact that whatever the metric (among the official one, aligulac and even pros such as Nerchio), Elazer deserves to go given that Hydra forfeited.
Because Neeb's win > Harstem/Drogo/uThermal's win, we shouldn't hope for a win/better performance than Elazer? How does that make sense?
If Elazer's best performance is worse than their best performance, how is it that we should expect their best performance to be worse than his best performance when his best performance is already worse than theirs? Even if you were to say that people got better during the year, it wouldn't work because Elazer's best performances were in the beginning of the year.
Also, though the foreigners did get trashed in the vs world series (how does this relate to our current topic?) a number of high level Koreans also lost as well.
As for aligulac...their rankings are often weird, and they usually favour those who play more games. For instance, Stats is ranked worse than Nerchio. Actually, Stats is ranked worse than Innovation and Maru as well, when it's clear that he's been performing much better than all of them throughout the year. Another good example is when Byun was rank 1 for the longest time because he farmed all the online cups, but when it came to the early 2016 GSL/SSL, he didn't do very well.
None of this changes the fact that Elazer never won a WCS tournament, whereas Harstem, drogo, and uThermal have all achieved this feat.
I'm saying that if Harstem and the other who won tourneys whereas Elazer didn't, had beaten as difficult opponents as Neeb, opponents that are at Blizzcon for the most part, we could have hoped for a miracle run. Since it's not the case our best hope is that they don't look too bad, but they didn't demonstrate much to be honest.
Aligulac and WCS and Nerchio agree that Elazer deserves his spot, what more do you want?
I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times.
But that is true for every player in the ranking, since some people have won an event (thus performed better at times than the whole top 8) yet they are not going to Blizzcon. So why complain about Elazer going and not Neeb, Polt, showtime, etc... ? :o
Well...let's take a look.
So, Neeb. Multiple 2nd place finishes, a ro4, two ro8, two ro16, 3rd, Copa Intercontinental, FREAKING WON KESPA CUP!! Honestly, if he just won Kespa cup, I would say he deserved to go. So...most of these are better than what Elazer, Harstem, drogo, uThermal, etc, etc. won.
So Polt, 1 WCS championship win, 1 WCS championship 2nd, and 1 WCS championship ro4, other places rather low. He's been a consistent performer with some luck. Honestly, even just one championship is deserving to go to Blizzcon, and he's even maintained that form.
So, Showtime, 1st WCS Spring, 2nd WCS Intercontinental, ro4 Shanghai, two ro8, two ro32. So not as consistent as Polt, but still overall placing highly in a number of tournaments.
So, Nerchio, 1st Valencia, 2nd WCS spring, ro4 finish, two ro8, 1 ro16, beat Classic. So, again, not as great as Neeb or Polt, but still very strong and consistent overall with multiple very high finishes.
So Snute, two 2nd place finishes, three ro4, one ro16, two ro32, won Copa Intercontinental. He's been very consistent over the course of the WCS 2016 season. He's had fewer of the best finishes, but he's placed very highly ini a lot of tournaments.
So, TRUE. 1st WCS Summer, ro32 GSL finish, so his achievements haven't been great, but I can only assume that he would have still placed quite well in the other WCS tournaments had he competed earlier in the season.
And yes, Violet has done about as well as Elazer except for the fact that Violet has gotten two ro4 finishes. So although he hasn't been as consistent as Elazer, he has had moments where he's been the better player.
So I don't get what you mean. Looking at the other players in the top 8, they very much deserve to be going to Blizzcon. Including Hydra, 7/8 spots are filled with people who have both placed first and second in major tournaments along with multiple high level placings.
So, no, I don't think that Harstem/drogo/uThermal deserve to be going to Blizzcon more than those that I just mentioned, but at least they've won a tournament. So my point still stands. Elazer (and to a lesser extent Violet) has been a consistently good but not great contender in the WCS scene.
And the ones you quoted haven't been great either. Plus you didn't understand what you yourself implied above :/.
Please explain to me how the ones mentioned above haven't been great. (At least within the confines of the WCS season). Everyone except for violet and Elazer have won a tournament.
Also, enlighten me as to what I implied above?
"I'm not saying that Elazer doesn't deserve his spot at Blizzcon, I'm just empathizing with the fact that other people who are not going to Blizzcon have performed better than him at times. " Isn't that obvious? Since some people who are not going to Blizzcon have won tourneys, they have, AT TIMES, performed better than every player in the top 8 (going to Blizzcon), since there is only one winner per tournament, so why bother only on Elazer since your stance applies to every player in the top 8?
Ah, I see. Ok that makes a lot of sense.
I will give you that, that those who are not going have certainly done better at times than those who are going (except for True...not much chance there).
However, the achievements that I've listed for the other 6 going to Blizzcon exceeds the achievements of drogo, Harstem, and uThermal. Not only have they all won a tournament, but their placings outside of a win have also been impressive.
I think you need to take a good look at Harstem/drogo/uThermal and compare whether their results are better that the ones I mentioned above.
I honestly have to question if you fully read the achievements of the people I mentioned earlier, because the comparison of achievements between the top 6 and Harstem/drogo/uThermal is far different than their comparison with Elazer/Violet.
It doesn't change the fact that whatever the metric (among the official one, aligulac and even pros such as Nerchio), Elazer deserves to go given that Hydra forfeited.
On October 13 2016 12:40 ZigguratOfUr wrote: So...what do we do now?
Well, I have to start over and then fix my earlier post, but I'll leave the old bracket in spoilers (though I doubt anyone cares). Considering who's going to get out of the group stage changes my whole list!
Edited. So fucking sad I had Polt at #6 and was probably the only one to place him that high... I changed the list a bit because of WESG but with only two T left, does vT even matter anymore for those not in the same group...
Sad to put Dear so low but he doesn't deserve higher, I actually expect great things from Showtime and Elazer. I actually Think Neeb, Stats and Patience are alls Three very Close in skill. Really great protoss players
Neeb is so hilariously overrated lol. I guess this is where the "choke" meme came from. People actually think he is (by far) the best foreigner and so whenever he doesn't win a tournamnet he must be choking.
1. ByuN 2. Dark 3. TY 4. Solar 5. Neeb 6. Stats (above are likely the champion pool) 7. Patience 8. Nerchio 9. Dear 10. Zest (above are strong contenders, strong chance of qualifying) 11. Snute (Good chance to do well based on match-ups, but unlikely to win) 12. TRUE 13. ShoWTimE (The above have a slim chance of qualifying) 14. PtitDrogo 15. ViOLet 16. Elazer
On October 25 2016 10:44 Hider wrote: Neeb is so hilariously overrated lol. I guess this is where the "choke" meme came from. Plebs actually think he is (by far) the best foreigner and so whenever he doesn't win a tournamnet he must be choking.
He recently stomped his way through a tournament with a similar format to blizcon vs players similar to those he'll play at Blizzcon, the hype is justified
On October 25 2016 10:44 Hider wrote: Neeb is so hilariously overrated lol. I guess this is where the "choke" meme came from. Plebs actually think he is (by far) the best foreigner and so whenever he doesn't win a tournamnet he must be choking.
He recently stomped his way through a tournament with a similar format to blizcon vs players similar to those he'll play at Blizzcon, the hype is justified
He won KeSPA cup off the back of one match-up, his PvP. His PvZ has shown a lot of cracks recently especially in his games against Scarlett.
On October 25 2016 10:44 Hider wrote: Neeb is so hilariously overrated lol. I guess this is where the "choke" meme came from. Plebs actually think he is (by far) the best foreigner and so whenever he doesn't win a tournamnet he must be choking.
He recently stomped his way through a tournament with a similar format to blizcon vs players similar to those he'll play at Blizzcon, the hype is justified
He won KeSPA cup off the back of one match-up, his PvP. His PvZ has shown a lot of cracks recently especially in his games against Scarlett.
A number of Koreans have won their GSL off of the back of their strongest matchup(s). Zest won KeSPA cup off the back of PvP. The fact that they played their best matchups does not diminish their achievement.
And yes, his PvZ doesn't look amazing right now, but I think there are a couple caveats. First, given its proximity to Blizzcon, he may not have practiced for this as hard as Scarlett might have. Second, Neeb and Scarlett were basically practice partners for a while, and team kills in the individual leagues ranged from great to wonky to completely one-sided. I remember in particular herO vs Byul was a stomp. (Though Zest vs TY was quite good).
I would agree with Neeb being rank 5 or so right after KeSPA cup, but I don't think you can ever rank him as number 2 with a single tournament win.
And after seeing him perform at WESG NA, it was a reminder that he has yet to prove himself as the best foreigner and is just not consistent enough to earn a top 5 spot imo.
His PvP is absolutely insane, but he is not the all around best foreigner imo, just too shaky for that.
I would agree with Neeb being rank 5 or so right after KeSPA cup, but I don't think you can ever rank him as number 2 with a single tournament win.
And after seeing him perform at WESG NA, it was a reminder that he has yet to prove himself as the best foreigner and is just not consistent enough to earn a top 5 spot imo.
His PvP is absolutely insane, but he is not the all around best foreigner imo, just too shaky for that.
Yeah Neeb is way too high at #2. I could see anything between 5 and 8.
Also the entire paragraph about Solar... Not a fan.
Even the article on battle.net is still in early access and has mistakes:
He reached the semifinals of both GSL seasons, beating Patience, Maru, and TY in the first, and besting sOs and TY in the second.
I would agree with Neeb being rank 5 or so right after KeSPA cup, but I don't think you can ever rank him as number 2 with a single tournament win.
And after seeing him perform at WESG NA, it was a reminder that he has yet to prove himself as the best foreigner and is just not consistent enough to earn a top 5 spot imo.
His PvP is absolutely insane, but he is not the all around best foreigner imo, just too shaky for that.
On October 25 2016 10:44 Hider wrote: Neeb is so hilariously overrated lol. I guess this is where the "choke" meme came from. Plebs actually think he is (by far) the best foreigner and so whenever he doesn't win a tournamnet he must be choking.
He recently stomped his way through a tournament with a similar format to blizcon vs players similar to those he'll play at Blizzcon, the hype is justified
"He won one tournament against koreans so he must be by far the best foreigner". It's the type of prediction made by people who are overly reliant on "storylines" rather than "raw data", and thus as a consequence heavily overrates a player.
But if you actually look at all of his results you realize two things:
1. Bracket was absolutely perfect for him - He only faced one top 15 player in the world (Stats) and won against him in his best matchup. 2. His overall results over the lats 3 months haven't been particularly great
Btw, Neeb's most recent offline result is losing to Scarlett in a bo5. And after losing 3-1 to Scarlett, he only barely managed to beat Kelazhur 3-2 to get 3rd place.
Even Aligulac - which heavily overrates foreigner over koreans - has dropped him down to 8th place in their rankings (which would be even lower if they improved the rating methdology). And this was the guy who just 2-4 months ago was top2!
But nonono, let's ignore most of his games played over that period and only take into account the results of one single tournament. Maybe uThermal was also the best foreigner after he won IEM Shanghai?
Btw, remember who Neeb beat in the Kespa Cup final: TRAP!!!!
If you are going to use the results of that one tournament and be consistent in your weightings, Trap must also be one of the best players in the world right (!) Otherwise he wouldn't have gotten that far.
According to the data, Nerchio is the strongest foreigner coming into this event with Neeb as #2. But none of them should be in the top 4.
I would agree with Neeb being rank 5 or so right after KeSPA cup, but I don't think you can ever rank him as number 2 with a single tournament win.
And after seeing him perform at WESG NA, it was a reminder that he has yet to prove himself as the best foreigner and is just not consistent enough to earn a top 5 spot imo.
His PvP is absolutely insane, but he is not the all around best foreigner imo, just too shaky for that.
Everytime I open a TL power rank I am trying to go in with a mindset of positivity. Trying to remember that these are volunteers doing their best and making the community a better place.
But then I see these absolute nonsense rankings over and over and I just go on monkeytilt becasue it's clear to me that TL writers actually don't go through all of the data.
There is no way a foreigner should be in the top 4. That's reserved to Byun, Ty, Dark and Solar which have shown over the last 6 months that they are the tier 1 players.
When it comes to tier 2, we can have a debate. Right after Kespa Cup, you could make a case for Neeb at #5, but since then his results have been lackluster.
Maybe TL should actually start to pay their writers just a bit for making articles so we can demand that there is actual research behind them? Instead of just them needing to rely on the results of one tournament/the easiest narratives.
Usually when people make predictions - that i consider ridiculous - I always recommend them to put their money where their mouth is (hence betting on them). If one has enough confidence in their assesments of player strenght, then they "should" be able to make a solid profit.
Imo betting is the best way to eliminate "wrong" opinions because those who are wrong quite often will be forced to acknowledge their ignorance quite quickly - otherwise they will go broke. But when ignorance is "free", there is nothing that forces people to change their methdology.
However, in this case bookmakers also overrate Neeb (still not by as much as TL does), so I guess TL writers doesn't have the opportunity to be rich after Blizzcon.
The fact that they played their best matchups does not diminish their achievement.
It means that Neeb can probably beat everyone in a PvP, but I don't see him beating any of the korean Zergs or Terrans (at least he is a heavy underdog).
On the other hand, I think Nerchio on a good day can beat everyone (he has a chance vs the top 4 players - still a small underdog ofc).
The fact that they played their best matchups does not diminish their achievement.
On the other hand, I think Nerchio on a good day can beat everyone (he has a chance vs the top 4 players - still a small underddog ofc).
I dunno. Patience and maru beat him very hard. His best matchup against koreans is ZvP. Thats the only matchup I could favour him in
Eh, he is 2-2 vs Maru over the last 2 months. 1-0 vs Byun.
And if you take a wider look at his match history, you generally see he has very good results against some of the better terrans out there.
I find it problematic when people make predictions only based on the very few games they have watched of him rather than just skimming through his match history.
On October 25 2016 20:41 Elentos wrote: Although to be fair, I still give Neeb good odds to advance from his group (because honestly it's just not the hardest group for him).
If goes against Patience and Zest I could see him go 4-0 / 4-1 in his group. In my powerrank I didn't really consider the difficulty of the groups... Oh well...
Neeb at Rank 2 is still weird, imo. I also think Snute is too inconsistent lately to be ranked at Rank 10. Surprising that Dark is number 1 in so many rankings.
On October 25 2016 20:41 Elentos wrote: Although to be fair, I still give Neeb good odds to advance from his group (because honestly it's just not the hardest group for him).
If goes against Patience and Zest I could see him go 4-0 / 4-1 in his group. In my powerrank I didn't really consider the difficulty of the groups... Oh well...
Neeb at Rank 2 is still weird, imo. I also think Snute is too inconsistent lately to be ranked at Rank 10. Surprising that Dark is number 1 in so many rankings.
He could also lose to Patience. Let's not make it out to be that he is invincible in the matchup as he actually lost to Patience in Shoutcraft 10 days ago.
He probably still go out of groups, but anything could happen.
Also if TL did take groups into account (which you normally don't in PR), it would have to be specifically stated. So most likely they just think Neeb is fantastic because he won Kespa Cup.
No matter in what order do you put Dark. Byun, Solar, and TY it will still be arguable, so they are simply the top 4. About the rest, its about who have a higher chance getting out of his group.
The only reason why I don't believe that much in Nerchio is because he is in a very hard group. Knocking out TY or Solar will be an achievement for him.
For almost the same reason I think Neeb will get to the RO8, his group isn't that hard for him, and he will play his best match-up at least once, I bet that he will play PvP twice in that group (which means he have a very good chance of getting to the RO8).
Yes I know Neeb lost to Scarlett and so on, but I don't think it reflects that much upon what is going to happen in Blizzcon. In the WESG qualifiers Neebs goal was to qualify, so I don't think he cared that much about his match vs Scarlett, I bet he was already preparing to Blizzcon (like he had that much time for it with these 2 events happening almost in the same week). For example, Dark didn't even qualify to the Kespa Cup, but it doesn't mean he will do his worst in Blizzcon,
If I have to bet Neeb will be the only foreigner in the RO8, although I hope I'm wrong (may be Snute can prove me wrong, or Nerchio will do the impossible). From there on, it depends upon the bracket. If the 4 players I mentioned as the top 4 doesn't meet each other in the RO8, they will probably be in the Semis, and from there nothing will surprise me.
Yes I know Neeb lost to Scarlett and so on, but I don't think it reflects that much upon what is going to happen in Blizzcon. In the WESG qualifiers Neebs goal was to qualify, so I don't think he cared that much about his match vs Scarlett,
Yes he didnt' care about winning extra dollar at all but on the other hand cares alot about doing well in online tournaments....
Yes, this is the classic "he was probably saving strats for xxx"-logic (which most people by now have made a meme of becasue it's 100% a result of bias).
Further, if you through his past data results, you see that him and Scarlett have played a ton of close matches. It's close to 50-50 between him. Not really particularly surprising that Neeb lost to Scarlett.
Nerchio probably could also easily have won Kespa Cup but just didn't feel like it as he wanted his opponents to underrestimate him going into Blizzcon.
For almost the same reason I think Neeb will get to the RO8, his group isn't that hard for him,
Also just lost to True less than 2 days ago in a bo5.
obviously still has a better chance of going out of group than Nerchio but that's not what powerranks are about.
The fact that they played their best matchups does not diminish their achievement.
On the other hand, I think Nerchio on a good day can beat everyone (he has a chance vs the top 4 players - still a small underddog ofc).
I dunno. Patience and maru beat him very hard. His best matchup against koreans is ZvP. Thats the only matchup I could favour him in
Eh, he is 2-2 vs Maru over the last 2 months. 1-0 vs Byun.
And if you take a wider look at his match history, you generally see he has very good results against some of the better terrans out there.
I find it problematic when people make predictions only based on the very few games they have watched of him rather than just skimming through his match history.
On the other hand Neeb can barely beat Kelazhur and losses to Scarlett.
Nerchio is like 35-3 over the last 2 months against terrans of equal or higher skill than Kelazhur.
Maru destroyed him in the series they played, that third map made the game look broken (even when Maru admitted he only practiced his TvP for that day, thinking he would face Patience>Classic)
You can't decide purely based of winrates. Nerchio and Byun have the most inflated winrates because 90% of games they play are against B/C tier players. What top level guys has Nerchio beat in his entire career? Classic? Is that really it?
If Nerchio loses to Scarlett, Snute, Lilbow, and MarineLord in a bo5 series with at least a week of practice, then he has zero chance against the top starleague guys. I'm just gonna say it. B tier Koreans maybe, but not Byun, TY, Dark, Solar, and Stats.
The fact that they played their best matchups does not diminish their achievement.
On the other hand, I think Nerchio on a good day can beat everyone (he has a chance vs the top 4 players - still a small underddog ofc).
I dunno. Patience and maru beat him very hard. His best matchup against koreans is ZvP. Thats the only matchup I could favour him in
Eh, he is 2-2 vs Maru over the last 2 months. 1-0 vs Byun.
And if you take a wider look at his match history, you generally see he has very good results against some of the better terrans out there.
I find it problematic when people make predictions only based on the very few games they have watched of him rather than just skimming through his match history.
On the other hand Neeb can barely beat Kelazhur and losses to Scarlett.
Nerchio is like 35-3 over the last 2 months against terrans of equal or higher skill than Kelazhur.
Maru destroyed him in the series they played, that third map made the game look broken
The first map was 28 minutes long and Maru was behind for like 23 of those 28 minutes, he barely won because Nerchio messed up. He then lost the next map. And then he had that game 3 which was the only one where he won convincingly.
That is so far off from any definition of "He destroyed him" I could agree with.
You can't decide purely based of winrates. Nerchio and Byun have the most inflated winrates because 90% of games they play are against B/C tier players
I don't, hence the criteria was better than Kelazhur. Just look through the data yourself.
What top level guys has Nerchio beat in his entire career? Classic? Is that really it?
Well given how highly you seem to value Neeb, it should be pointed out that Nerchio won 6-3 against Neeb in their most recent encounter.
But your methodology is just flawed. Your just nitpicking very specific results instead of just taking a broader view of all of the matches both players have played, and then weighted them based on opponents skill level and date.
When you have a large sample size, you don't sit there and overanalyze 1-2 games. No (!) - you let data speak for it self.
And Neeb's recent overall results have been mediocre - hence why his ELO ranking has gone down.
Yes I know Neeb lost to Scarlett and so on, but I don't think it reflects that much upon what is going to happen in Blizzcon. In the WESG qualifiers Neebs goal was to qualify, so I don't think he cared that much about his match vs Scarlett,
Yes he didnt' care about winning extra dollar at all but on the other hand cares alot about doing well in online tournaments....
Yes, this is the classic "he was probably saving strats for xxx"-logic (which most people by now have made a meme of becasue it's 100% a result of bias).
Further, if you through his past data results, you see that him and Scarlett have played a ton of close matches. It's close to 50-50 between him. Not really particularly surprising that Neeb lost to Scarlett.
Nerchio probably could also easily have won Kespa Cup but just didn't feel like it as he wanted his opponents to underrestimate him going into Blizzcon.
Interesting, how do you explain that Dark didn't even qualify to the Kespa cup, he could earn money there as well.
He was hiding strategies for blizzcon.
Or maybe he just lost because favourites don't win 100% of their games. So variance is a factor. Sometimes uThermal also wins a tournament, but that doesn't mean he is the best foreigner.
Variance seems to be such an ackward concept for some people to understand. Just because you win against a top 5 player, doesn't make a you a top 5 player.
And this only becomes more problematic when (a) people don't look at the data but just follow lazy narratives/the few games they have watched (neeb wins over koreans --> must be the best) and (b) we are assessing an NA player and usually they are more likely to be overrated if they do well than koreans.
To prove the latter point, if Trap had won against Neeb in the final. Noone in their right mind would put him in the top 5 going into Blizzcon.
Hence why the stupid "choke"-thing ever became a meme. People must really have thought Neeb was "supposed" to win all of the foreign tournaments but just didn't win because he was "choking".
Interesting, how do you explain that Dark didn't even qualify to the Kespa cup, he could earn money there as well.
He was hiding strategies for blizzcon.
Or maybe he just lost because favourites don't win 100% of their games. So variance is a factor. Sometimes uThermal also wins a tournament, but that doesn't mean he is the best foreigner.
Variance seems to be such an ackward concept for some people to understand. Just because you win against a top 5 player, doesn't make a you a top 5 player.... And that's literraly all Neeb has done (of "positive things" over the last 2 months. 1 win against a top 5 player.
But then you start to count of his "bad results", and reasonable people will see that there is just no way this guy is in the top 5.
If he did, why did he even participated in the Global qualifiers, and won 2 matches there?
And its quite interesting that when it comes to Dark, then its variance, but when it comes to Nerchio being close 1 map from the RO8 of Kespa Cup, then he was destroyed. Isn't it bias?
A question for everyone having Neeb in the top 4-5 in your power ranking (and taking it seriously - if just made a random list w/e), and especially this is a question to TL writers.
If Trap had beat Neeb in the finals (and for w/e reason gone to Blizzcon), where woud you have ranked Trap.
I have Neeb in my top 5 but i agree with you that the recent online results make this questionable. But i wanted to change my list a bit till deadline anyway, i am only confident in my top4 at this point for the same reasons you already gave
I would agree with Neeb being rank 5 or so right after KeSPA cup, but I don't think you can ever rank him as number 2 with a single tournament win.
And after seeing him perform at WESG NA, it was a reminder that he has yet to prove himself as the best foreigner and is just not consistent enough to earn a top 5 spot imo.
His PvP is absolutely insane, but he is not the all around best foreigner imo, just too shaky for that.
ByuN and Stats are a bit low and Neeb a bit high, but overall not terrible
On October 25 2016 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: I have Neeb in my top 5 but i agree with you that the recent online results make this questionable. But i wanted to change my list a bit till deadline anyway, i am only confident in my top4 at this point for the same reasons you already gave
The tournament where he lost to Scarlett and barely won against Kelazhur was actually offline.
Anyway, as I previously mentioned I am also "OK" with placing Neeb at 5th right after Kespa Cup. Personally that would still be slightly more optimistic than where I would have ranked him, but - back then - it was within the borders of reason.
On October 25 2016 22:03 Hider wrote: A question for everyone having Neeb in the top 4-5 in your power ranking (and taking it seriously - if just made a random list w/e), and especially this is a question to TL writers.
If Trap had beat Neeb in the finals (and for w/e reason gone to Blizzcon), where woud you have ranked Trap.
Can't remember where I put Neeb but trap is prob 7th
His run through GSL Season 2 saw him almost become the indisputable best player in the world, but he fell from that height just as fast. He lost a big match against Zest in KeSPA Cup and faltered in a tight set against Dark in Cross-Finals,
So going 1-4 vs Zest and 2-3 vs Dark takes you from "clearly the best player in the world" to 4th???
I guess TL would have ranked Trap in the top 2 as well if Trap had beaten neeb in the final.
On October 25 2016 22:25 The_Red_Viper wrote: I have Neeb in my top 5 but i agree with you that the recent online results make this questionable. But i wanted to change my list a bit till deadline anyway, i am only confident in my top4 at this point for the same reasons you already gave
The tournament where he lost to Scarlett and barely won against Kelazhur was actually offline.
But as I pointed out, I am also "OK" with placing Neeb at 5th right after Kespa Cup. Personally that would still be slightly more optimistic than where I would have ranked him, but back then, it was within the borders of reason.
Haha fair enough, i didn't follow the recent events too much. In general it's really hard to rank the foreigners with the koreans, especially now that the korean lvl seems to be a bit lower than usual. TY, Dark, Solar and Byun are ahead of everyone and then it gets hard imo.
I hope and think that this community PR will be better than the TL one (sry TL )
Articles (whether TL or not) are not meant to be 'Statistic analysis master degree final exam', but they can give any of the following: background, recent form, general information, humour, hype, and, yes, biais (the subjective one, not the mathematical one).
Someone good at stats can do the math himself. If not, the details of such an abstract article would just be pointless to read anyway.
His run through GSL Season 2 saw him almost become the indisputable best player in the world, but he fell from that height just as fast. He lost a big match against Zest in KeSPA Cup and faltered in a tight set against Dark in Cross-Finals,
So one loss to Zest and a loss to Dark takes you from "clearly the best player in the world" to 4th???
Really TL?
I guess TL would have ranked Trap in the top 2 as well if Trap had beaten neeb in the final.
Trap had a harder run to the finals than Neeb (harder qualifiers, too), with wins over Solar, Patience and TY. So you could almost justify that.
Haha fair enough, i didn't follow the recent events too much. In general it's really hard to rank the foreigners with the koreans, especially now that the korean lvl seems to be a bit lower than usual.
Sure. One way is to look at Aligulac and then subtract a few points from those who often play with foreigners/online games.
E.g. subtract 50-100 points from all foreigners + Byun.
With that method I think you end up with a relatively decent power ranking.
His run through GSL Season 2 saw him almost become the indisputable best player in the world, but he fell from that height just as fast. He lost a big match against Zest in KeSPA Cup and faltered in a tight set against Dark in Cross-Finals,
So one loss to Zest and a loss to Dark takes you from "clearly the best player in the world" to 4th???
Really TL?
I guess TL would have ranked Trap in the top 2 as well if Trap had beaten neeb in the final.
Trap had a harder run to the finals than Neeb (harder qualifiers, too), with wins over Solar, Patience and TY. So you could almost justify that.
If Neeb could get #2 with an easier schedule, why not top 1 then?
And obviously my follow up question, would Trap then be a favourite (have 50%+ chance) to beat players like Byun, Solar, Dark and Ty at Blizzcon?
On October 25 2016 22:50 AbouSV wrote: Articles (whether TL or not) are not meant to be 'Statistic analysis master degree final exam', but they can give any of the following: background, recent form, general information, humour, hype, and, yes, biais (the subjective one, not the mathematical one).
Someone good at stats can do the math himself. If not, the details of such an abstract article would just be pointless to read anyway.
It matters for me. Because now people will probably think Neeb choked - as in mental weakness - when he "unexpectedly" goes out in quarter finals.
Also, if you are not taking data seriously, then I would like to see more focus on the playstyles of the players. What makes them unique? What are their strenghts/weakness's, and then highlight a VOD that shows how the player typically plays.
On October 25 2016 22:50 AbouSV wrote: Articles (whether TL or not) are not meant to be 'Statistic analysis master degree final exam', but they can give any of the following: background, recent form, general information, humour, hype, and, yes, biais (the subjective one, not the mathematical one).
Someone good at stats can do the math himself. If not, the details of such an abstract article would just be pointless to read anyway.
It matters for me. Because now people will probably think Neeb choked - as in mental weakness - when he "unexpectedly" goes out in quarter finals.
Well then the course of action is obvious, Hider. You go there and rig the whole thing so that Neeb and Dark play in the quarter finals. #2 going out against #1 isn't "unexpected" or an "upset". Also prepare a time machine in case Dark messes up and loses or doesn't win convincingly enough for it to not be a "choke".
You can't decide purely based of winrates. Nerchio and Byun have the most inflated winrates because 90% of games they play are against B/C tier players
I don't, hence the criteria was better than Kelazhur. Just look through the data yourself.
What top level guys has Nerchio beat in his entire career? Classic? Is that really it?
Well given how highly you seem to value Neeb, it should be pointed out that Nerchio won 6-3 against Neeb in their most recent encounter.
But your methodology is just flawed. Your just nitpicking very specific results instead of just taking a broader view of all of the matches both players have played, and then weighted them based on opponents skill level and date.
When you have a large sample size, you don't sit there and overanalyze 1-2 games. No (!) - you let data speak for it self.
And Neeb's recent overall results have been mediocre - hence why his ELO ranking has gone down.
Except those "1-2 games" are only thing to go off as far as nerchio vs koreans. Nerch has faced Koreans in this kind of tournament once (kespa cup). And he didnt cut it. Ontop of that he regularly underperforms against other foreigners even though he's meant to be the "foreigner king".
Please explain how he can lose to lilbow, scarlett, marinelord, and snute in bo5 series, and then you people say he still beats TY, Byun, dark etc be cause of his winrates. Just...how???
The fact that they played their best matchups does not diminish their achievement.
On the other hand, I think Nerchio on a good day can beat everyone (he has a chance vs the top 4 players - still a small underddog ofc).
I dunno. Patience and maru beat him very hard. His best matchup against koreans is ZvP. Thats the only matchup I could favour him in
Eh, he is 2-2 vs Maru over the last 2 months. 1-0 vs Byun.
And if you take a wider look at his match history, you generally see he has very good results against some of the better terrans out there.
I find it problematic when people make predictions only based on the very few games they have watched of him rather than just skimming through his match history.
On the other hand Neeb can barely beat Kelazhur and losses to Scarlett.
Nerchio is like 35-3 over the last 2 months against terrans of equal or higher skill than Kelazhur.
Maru destroyed him in the series they played, that third map made the game look broken
The first map was 28 minutes long and Maru was behind for like 23 of those 28 minutes, he barely won because Nerchio messed up. He then lost the next map. And then he had that game 3 which was the only one where he won convincingly.
That is so far off from any definition of "He destroyed him" I could agree with.
The first map Nerchio was completely clueless on what to do against Maru army (he even admitted this on TL after the match). Maru was gonna win no matter how long the game was. Game 2 was very close sure and Nerch defended very well, I'm not quite sure what Maru was trying to do (maybe he just really wanted to play map 3 idk). But game 3 was an utter steamroll, Nerch never had a good position all game long. I'd say thats a one sided series. Nerch only looked like he could have won in game 2 and even then it was close. (In shoutcraft it was a 100% clear win for nerchio to put a perspective on it).
In a similar way to when Zest vs Maru in season 1 was 3-0, but was incredibly close every game. Results don't always show how close a series really is.
Except those "1-2 games" are only thing to go off as far as nerchio vs koreans. Nerch has faced Koreans in this kind of tournament once (kespa cup).
You narrow it down to a very specific set of circumstances, and only under those circumstances does the results matter.
For some reason there exist this myth that online results should be ignored, even though the correlation is insanely high between offline and online results.
And for some reason, results against top foreigners should be ignored because they cannot be compared to Koreans in any way sort of shape. Even though Neeb's results were mostly against non tier 1 koreans.
According to your methodology, if someone has a 90% win/rate against good foreigners that data information should be completely ignored when estimating how they will perform against koreans.
But in proper data analysis, you look at every single information, and then you weight them accordingly in order to maximize the predictive power.
Is the "TL" ranking I saw linked, from Blizzard forums or smth, some kind of a joke/bad troll? Like putting Neeb at #2 is worse delusional hyping than NA LoL teams have ever been hyped, even tho they are overhyped/overrated every year. When you barely beat a brasilian player in PvT, and lose against Scarlett, win a korean tourney relying almost solely on PvP, perform worse all year long than the best foreigner, you are now considered #2 for Blizzcon? Poor ByuN shits on Neeb all day everyday in practice in order to beat equal/better protosses, is great in every matchup, shits on everyone on Aligulac and in online tourneys, but hey Neeb is good at PvP so you have a worse Power Ranking .
Except those "1-2 games" are only thing to go off as far as nerchio vs koreans. Nerch has faced Koreans in this kind of tournament once (kespa cup).
You narrow it down to a very specific set of circumstances, and only under those circumstances does the results matter.
For some reason there exist this myth that online results should be ignored, even though the correlation is insanely high between offline and online results.
And for some reason, results against top foreigners should be ignored because they cannot be compared to Koreans in any way sort of shape. Even though Neeb's results were mostly against non tier 1 koreans.
According to your methodology, if someone has a 90% win/rate against good foreigners that data information should be completely ignored when estimating how they will perform against koreans.
But in proper data analysis, you look at every single information, and then you weight them accordingly in order to maximize the predictive power.
I am NOT only using his Kespa cup results you've missed my other point. Nerchios results are not good offline vs top foreigners or koreans. I repeat what I said before. Explain to me how, if he loses to Lilbow, Scarlett, Snute, or MLord in a basic bo5 with a few days prep, will he ever take on top starleague players? Because to me that makes no sense. aligulac %s mean NOTHING when you can't take wins in tourneys.
Offline results ARE completely different. SOMETIMES they can be a sign of skill (i.e. Byun). sometimes not (i.e everyone who isn't Byun). The thing is a lot of the best players never do them. If Dark or Maru or Dear or TY actually did many online cups their winrates would be 20-30% higher than they are. Heck, Dark's winrates are not even that high despite him being the clear best player of the year with 4 finals and 2 trophies.
Offline results ARE completely different. SOMETIMES they can be a sign of skill (i.e. Byun). sometimes not (i.e everyone who isn't Byun)
And people said the same thing about Neeb. Actually try this: Make a statistical model and then completely ignore online results when attempting to predict offline results, and compare the accuracy of that model to a model that actually takes into account online results.
Also, please sign up to a bookmaker and place your money where your mouth is.
Offline results ARE completely different. SOMETIMES they can be a sign of skill (i.e. Byun). sometimes not (i.e everyone who isn't Byun)
And people said the same thing about Neeb. Actually try this: Make a statistical model and then completely ignore online results when attempting to predict offline results, and compare the accuracy of that model to a model that actually takes into account online results.
Also, please sign up to a bookmaker and place your money where your mouth is.
My lord you have tunnel vision. I didn't say not to take online cups into account, but they are NOT always indicative of performance. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
I'm sorry I will never use a statistical model to predict sc results because it doesn't take into account so many factors. Don't get me wrong percentages are cute to look at and can be useful. But anyone who has watched all the recent tournaments and followed the players for years will have more accurate predictions than a bot.
Now Ima repeat myself for the 5th and hopefully final time- "If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
You are joking if you think he can because he has "good online winrates" haha you think if Dark or TY or Zest did as many online cups they wouldn't have even higher percentages??? Or have you only been around the scene this year and don't know the differences between levels of play.
Offline results ARE completely different. SOMETIMES they can be a sign of skill (i.e. Byun). sometimes not (i.e everyone who isn't Byun)
And people said the same thing about Neeb. Actually try this: Make a statistical model and then completely ignore online results when attempting to predict offline results, and compare the accuracy of that model to a model that actually takes into account online results.
Also, please sign up to a bookmaker and place your money where your mouth is.
My lord you have tunnel vision. I didn't say not to take online cups into account, but they are NOT always indicative of performance. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
I'm sorry I will never use a statistical model to predict sc results because it doesn't take into account so many factors. Don't get me wrong percentages are cute to look at and can be useful. But anyone who has watched all the recent tournaments and followed the players for years will have more accurate predictions than a bot.
Now Ima repeat myself for the 5th and hopefully final time- "If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
You are joking if you think he can because he has "good online winrates" haha you think if Dark or TY or Zest did as many online cups they wouldn't have even higher percentages??? Or have you only been around the scene this year and don't know the differences between levels of play.
By this metric Neeb lost to Scarlett and barely beat Kelazhur (afaik it was offline, it wouldn't change much if it was online tho ) so he is not doing too well.
Nerchio has beaten all the players you listed in bo5 afaik. Nerchio 4-0 MLorD DH Valencia 2016. (offline) Nerchio 3-1 Scarlett WCS Spring 2016. (offline) Nerchio 4-2 Lilbow Acer Pro Challenge (online) Nerchio 3-2 Snute many times (online or offline)
Nerchio is the best foreigner by far in LotV and he has the most chances of doing well among foreigners.
Offline results ARE completely different. SOMETIMES they can be a sign of skill (i.e. Byun). sometimes not (i.e everyone who isn't Byun)
And people said the same thing about Neeb. Actually try this: Make a statistical model and then completely ignore online results when attempting to predict offline results, and compare the accuracy of that model to a model that actually takes into account online results.
Also, please sign up to a bookmaker and place your money where your mouth is.
My lord you have tunnel vision. I didn't say not to take online cups into account, but they are NOT always indicative of performance. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
I'm sorry I will never use a statistical model to predict sc results because it doesn't take into account so many factors. Don't get me wrong percentages are cute to look at and can be useful. But anyone who has watched all the recent tournaments and followed the players for years will have more accurate predictions than a bot.
Now Ima repeat myself for the 5th and hopefully final time- "If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
You are joking if you think he can because he has "good online winrates" haha you think if Dark or TY or Zest did as many online cups they wouldn't have even higher percentages??? Or have you only been around the scene this year and don't know the differences between levels of play.
By this metric Neeb lost to Scarlett and barely beat Kelazhur (afaik it was offline, it wouldn't change much if it was online tho ) so he is not doing too well.
Nerchio has beaten all the players you listed in bo5 afaik. Nerchio 4-0 MLorD DH Valencia 2016. (offline) Nerchio 3-1 Scarlett WCS Spring 2016. (offline) Nerchio 4-2 Lilbow Acer Pro Challenge (online) Nerchio 3-2 Snute many times (online or offline)
Nerchio is the best foreigner by far in LotV and he has the most chances of doing well among foreigners.
Very true but he has also lost to all of them in bo5 more recently offline as fair as I'm aware. I would agree him Snute and Neeb are the best foreigners for years. It's just I can't see him having a chance at beating a top 5 Kespa player when he still can't consistantly beat top 10 foreigners.
It's like Lilbow syndrome again. That man was so hyped last blizzcon due to his results in WCS europe (or whatever it was) but was still a full tier below when it came to facing Life.
My lord you have tunnel vision. I didn't say not to take online cups into account, but they are NOT always indicative of performance.
No you actually directly saying to ignore online performances:
. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
So recent online performances has no impact on how well we can expect the players to do in the next offline tournament. It seems like you don't even understand the implications of what you are actually writing.
"If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
What? Obvivously he can. What the hell are you on?
You are joking if you think he can because he has "good online winrates" haha you think if Dark or TY or Zest did as many online cups they wouldn't have even higher percentages??? Or have you only been around the scene this year and don't know the differences between levels of play.
No idea what you are talking about. But you seem like someone who just spew absolutely random shit.
Or have you only been around the scene this year and don't know the differences between levels of play.
Let's check your profile:
Joined TL.net Saturday, 2nd of July 2016
Now let's check mine:
Joined TL.net Wednesday, 5th of May 2010
So pretty much this confirms your just spewing random bullshit based on nothing. No need to talk to you further. Have a nice life bye.
On October 26 2016 05:43 Soularion wrote: We'll see how things go when it comes for Blizzcon. Should invent some kind of a system for showing which PR is best
PR doesn't take into account schedule difficulty so we can't do that.
It's so tough...I feel like I should rank by matchup, because I would favour Neeb over any other Protoss, but his other matchups haven't been as good. And a lot of Koreans haven't been performing as well, but they might still be better than the best foreigners.
. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
So recent online performances has no impact on how well we can expect the players to do in the next offline tournament. It seems like you don't even understand the implications of what you are actually writing.
"If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
What? Obvivously he can. What the hell are you on?
HAHAHA what are you on about. I never said you ignore online performance 100%, I said you cannot use it to say a player is good offline against the kespa players who, with the exception of Byun, almost never play many online cups. So saying "Nerchio has an XX% winrate" means very little, when performs badly in half the real tournaments he's in (against players no where near the level of the Starleague guys).
Wait wait hold up...you admit Nerchio can outright LOSE to FOREIGNERS (lost bo5s to scarlett, lilbow, Mlord, and snute) yet he can magically BEAT the best starleague players? You are saying that beating top foreigners is as hard than facing the top Koreans? No offense man but that's laughable.
Blimey the salt sure is strong today, can't wait to see the fanboys it when the foreigners all get eliminated. Reminds me of Lilbow 2015 :D
You are saying so much random and/or BS things it's not even funny anymore x). Since I am not totally certain you are trolling I'll explain common knowledge about Starcraft. SC2 is a game with enough variance so that players from the top can lose to other top players in Bo5, especially if you add the form factor and random conditions (Snute being sick in China against Harstem for example). Losing a bo5 to a master (real master, not GM leaving and stuff) while being yourself a top foreigner, is not in the expected variance so you could argue that if you lose to such players, there is no hope for you to win BoX against Koreans since the skill difference is larger than the gap between you and the master. However, losing Bo5 (offline or online) to top foreigners from time to time is expected. If your win rate is otherwise positive versus them you kinda are on the top of the foreign food chain. Plus, if you have a decent win rate against Koreans, even top starleagues players aren't better enough for a loss against you being outside the expected variance. Thus there is a decent chance for you to win, and arguing that you can't win versus a superior player because you lost against an inferior player, is a pure fallacy when the skill differential is low. In fact it happens all the time, even to top Koreans.
My lord you have tunnel vision. I didn't say not to take online cups into account, but they are NOT always indicative of performance.
No you actually directly saying to ignore online performances:
. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
So recent online performances has no impact on how well we can expect the players to do in the next offline tournament. It seems like you don't even understand the implications of what you are actually writing.
"If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
What? Obvivously he can. What the hell are you on?
HAHAHA what are you on about. I never said you ignore online performance 100%, I said you cannot use it to say a player is good offline against the kespa players who, with the exception of Byun, almost never play many online cups. So saying "Nerchio has an XX% winrate" means very little, when performs badly in half the real tournaments he's in (against players no where near the level of the Starleague guys).
Wait wait hold up...you admit Nerchio can outright LOSE to FOREIGNERS (lost bo5s to scarlett, lilbow, Mlord, and snute) yet he can magically BEAT the best starleague players? You are saying that beating top foreigners is as hard than facing the top Koreans? No offense man but that's laughable.
Blimey the salt sure is strong today, can't wait to see the fanboys it when the foreigners all get eliminated. Reminds me of Lilbow 2015 :D
My lord you have tunnel vision. I didn't say not to take online cups into account, but they are NOT always indicative of performance.
No you actually directly saying to ignore online performances:
. Simply looking at recent offline performacne is the only way to guess how a player is doing in tournaments right now.
So recent online performances has no impact on how well we can expect the players to do in the next offline tournament. It seems like you don't even understand the implications of what you are actually writing.
"If Nerchio cannot beat high level foriengers like Snute, Scarlett, Mlord, or even Lilbow in a straight up bo5, he will never be able to take out top starleague players"
What? Obvivously he can. What the hell are you on?
HAHAHA what are you on about. I never said you ignore online performance 100%, I said you cannot use it to say a player is good offline against the kespa players who, with the exception of Byun, almost never play many online cups. So saying "Nerchio has an XX% winrate" means very little, when performs badly in half the real tournaments he's in (against players no where near the level of the Starleague guys).
Wait wait hold up...you admit Nerchio can outright LOSE to FOREIGNERS (lost bo5s to scarlett, lilbow, Mlord, and snute) yet he can magically BEAT the best starleague players? You are saying that beating top foreigners is as hard than facing the top Koreans? No offense man but that's laughable.
Blimey the salt sure is strong today, can't wait to see the fanboys it when the foreigners all get eliminated. Reminds me of Lilbow 2015 :D
fucking scrub can't even beat the retired overwatch player lilbow tho
Just proves the point that the europeans don't play enough games against Koreans to get a viable picture. Nerchio vs TY was last year. The only relevant series he's played are 1-2 Maru, 0-2 classic, and 2-0 patience. Not enough matches to get a viable idea of if he can do well.
The only thing we know is that he's "more or less" equal in skill to the fellow top foreigners (scarlett snute Mlord Neeb etc). Which in my opinion puts him a clear rank below the top Koreans (you have to at the very least dominate the foreign scene to be consdered a rival for the starleages champs).
Edit: this list a thousands times better than the TL and aligulac ones I'm just gonna put it out there
On October 27 2016 01:45 Musicus wrote: Very solid list I think! Neeb can be argued I guess, but 6 seems just fine since some would put him higher and some lower.
Nerchio should be closer to Neeb though imo.
They should be closer by points yeah, although I don't really think it matters if Nerchio is 8, 9 or 10.
Very cool list , even though Neeb is a bit overrated (depends on the people as said before so it's fine) and Nerchio a bit underrated. Other than that everyone has a reasonable placing!
On October 27 2016 02:39 Ej_ wrote: Gonna compare the OP to TL PR at every point to confirm that the writers are literally worse than an opinion of an average Joe
On October 27 2016 01:36 Elentos wrote: I think ours is better
:D
Do we know how the TL one was done? Probably an average of x writers?
I doubt it. Look at the KeSPA cup power rank--the writers as a group don't like foreigners (and Neeb) that much. My guess is that Soularion wrote it alone. The list wasn't too different from his power rank he posted in this thread either.
On October 27 2016 01:36 Elentos wrote: I think ours is better
:D
Do we know how the TL one was done? Probably an average of x writers?
I doubt it. Look at the KeSPA cup power rank--the writers as a group don't like foreigners (and Neeb) that much. My guess is that Soularion wrote it alone. The list wasn't too different from his power rank he posted in this thread either.
But it was different And the Kespa Cup power rank was written BEFORE Neeb won it, so it's reasonable to assume that some changed their opinions.
On October 27 2016 01:36 Elentos wrote: I think ours is better
:D
Do we know how the TL one was done? Probably an average of x writers?
I doubt it. Look at the KeSPA cup power rank--the writers as a group don't like foreigners (and Neeb) that much. My guess is that Soularion wrote it alone. The list wasn't too different from his power rank he posted in this thread either.
But it was different And the Kespa Cup power rank was written BEFORE Neeb won it, so it's reasonable to assume that some changed their opinions.
Maybe Soularion changed his mind a bit after he wrote the power rank. I don't see any of the other writers rating Neeb higher than 5th or 6th despite KeSPA cup. And Destructicon would have ranked him 9th behind all the players from the Korean region.
TL Power Rank wrote: 1. Dark 2. Neeb 3. Solar 4. ByuN 5. TY 6. Stats 7. Patience 8. Nerchio 9. Zest 10. Snute 11. Dear 12. TRUE 13. ShoWTimE 14. Elazer 15. PtitDrogo 16. viOLet
Nvm that's what happens when you don't compare side to side x)
Thing is i looked at this thread right after they released the official one and soularion basically posted there at the same time, and by quickly looking i just assumed it was the same
On October 27 2016 06:57 Cricketer12 wrote: Yea, soul has most pashun/ love for foreigners. The blizzard list was prob 95% him
Well considering the list he posted here is identical to the TL official power rank, it's most likely his
It isn't quite though.
On October 25 2016 10:25 Soularion wrote: 1. Dark 2. Solar 3. Neeb 4. ByuN 5. TY 6. Patience 7. Stats 8. Nerchio 9. Dear 10. Zest 11. Snute 12. TRUE 13. ShoWTimE 14. Elazer 15. PtitDrogo 16. viOLet
TL Power Rank wrote: 1. Dark 2. Neeb 3. Solar 4. ByuN 5. TY 6. Stats 7. Patience 8. Nerchio 9. Zest 10. Snute 11. Dear 12. TRUE 13. ShoWTimE 14. Elazer 15. PtitDrogo 16. viOLet
Nvm that's what happens when you don't compare side to side x)
Thing is i looked at this thread right after they released the official one and soularion basically posted there at the same time, and by quickly looking i just assumed it was the same
the only thing that differentiates the TL writers from the community users is that we have more faith in neeb. other than that its all pretty similar
But lots of things depends on the match up, for example I think TY would beat Solar if they had to face each other but Solar's vP is much stronger than TY's.
On October 27 2016 23:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't think he makes the cut tbh, the others have better results overall. Not that it's a huge gap, but it's there i think
Do they? I'm not so sure. I guess you only count offline as usual. What puts TY ahead of Stats? Their results aren't that different overall.
On October 27 2016 23:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't think he makes the cut tbh, the others have better results overall. Not that it's a huge gap, but it's there i think
Do they? I'm not so sure. I guess you only count offline as usual. What puts TY ahead of Stats? Their results aren't that different overall.
I am actually not only counting offline. I also counted WESG qualifiers for example. BUt even without that TY would be slightly ahead due to double ro8 in season 2. In general i looked a bit at online results in general, even though i weigh these weekly cups not nearly the same as actually important matches.
On October 27 2016 23:43 The_Red_Viper wrote: I don't think he makes the cut tbh, the others have better results overall. Not that it's a huge gap, but it's there i think
Do they? I'm not so sure. I guess you only count offline as usual. What puts TY ahead of Stats? Their results aren't that different overall.
I am actually not only counting offline. I also counted WESG qualifiers for example. BUt even without that TY would be slightly ahead due to double ro8 in season 2. In general i looked a bit at online results in general, even though i weigh these weekly cups not nearly the same as actually important matches.
I'd say they'd be even because of Proleague.
Comparatively -
Proleague: Stats > TY > Solar > Dark KeSPA Cup: TY = Stats > Solar = ByuN > Dark GSL S2: ByuN > TY > Dark > Stats = Solar SSL S2: Solar > Dark > Stats = TY > ByuN WESG Qualifiers: TY > ByuN > Stats = Dark > Solar
On October 28 2016 00:55 Cricketer12 wrote: I'd say Stats > TY pretty easily. Byun would probably wreck him. It's really hard to rate him vs the zergs. Solar prob has the lead over him.
On October 28 2016 00:55 Cricketer12 wrote: I'd say Stats > TY pretty easily. Byun would probably wreck him. It's really hard to rate him vs the zergs. Solar prob has the lead over him.
Still no one talks about dear he's so underrated, I think he's easily top 8 and has good chances of top 4 dependings on playoff draws (if he's vs TY in ro8 I definitely see him advancing in ro4 but final will be though to reach)
On October 25 2016 22:50 AbouSV wrote: Articles (whether TL or not) are not meant to be 'Statistic analysis master degree final exam', but they can give any of the following: background, recent form, general information, humour, hype, and, yes, biais (the subjective one, not the mathematical one).
Someone good at stats can do the math himself. If not, the details of such an abstract article would just be pointless to read anyway.
It matters for me. Because now people will probably think Neeb choked - as in mental weakness - when he "unexpectedly" goes out in quarter finals.
Well then the course of action is obvious, Hider. You go there and rig the whole thing so that Neeb and Dark play in the quarter finals. #2 going out against #1 isn't "unexpected" or an "upset". Also prepare a time machine in case Dark messes up and loses or doesn't win convincingly enough for it to not be a "choke".
EPT
PtitDrogo ⇘ 1 (compared to the TL Power Rank)![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/c/c7/PtitDrogo_HSC11.jpg/600px-PtitDrogo_HSC11.jpg)
viOLet ⇗ 1![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/c/c7/ViOLetMLGWinterArena.jpg/579px-ViOLetMLGWinterArena.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/2/23/Elazer2_WCS_S2_2015.jpg/562px-Elazer2_WCS_S2_2015.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/8/87/ShoWTimE_WCS_2015_Season1.jpg/562px-ShoWTimE_WCS_2015_Season1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/6/60/TRUE_2016WCSSummer.jpg/563px-TRUE_2016WCSSummer.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/d/df/Snute_march_madness.jpg/562px-Snute_march_madness.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/c/cd/Nerchio_TANKIPL5D1.jpg/565px-Nerchio_TANKIPL5D1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/9/9e/Dear_GSL_2016-03-11.jpg/600px-Dear_GSL_2016-03-11.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/4/48/Zest_iem_toronto14.jpg/600px-Zest_iem_toronto14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/8/83/Patience_HSC11.jpg/562px-Patience_HSC11.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/8/8a/Neeb_2016DreamHackTours.jpg/600px-Neeb_2016DreamHackTours.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/b/bf/Stats_Anaheim_2013.jpg/600px-Stats_Anaheim_2013.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/6/6e/Solar_2016StarLeagueS2.jpg/600px-Solar_2016StarLeagueS2.jpg)
TY ⇗ 2![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/8/80/TY_IEM_Shenzhen_2015.jpg/600px-TY_IEM_Shenzhen_2015.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/5/55/ByuN_2016GSLS2.jpg/600px-ByuN_2016GSLS2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/thumb/0/06/Dark_IEM_WC_2015.jpg/600px-Dark_IEM_WC_2015.jpg)
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