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On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck.
But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry.
These debates are getting more and more off-topic and pointless, stuchiu really has a talent for having his articles do that.
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On May 29 2016 22:25 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage.
I guess that's the excuse for zest to be kicked out at ro 16 at both of his blizzcon runs then....
E: why do you think fromage is not a strat? Like I said, it just shows how life excels in these short tournaments and sOs beating hims shows all the more how good he is.
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On May 29 2016 23:19 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck. But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry.
maybe but Life's win against lilbow was impressive enough to make up for this.
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
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On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
such a coincidence that so many players always derped against life.
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On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
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On May 29 2016 23:22 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:19 Elentos wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:
[quote]
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck. But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry. maybe but Life's win against lilbow was impressive enough to make up for this.
An all time great series.
On May 29 2016 23:22 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 22:25 Elentos wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage. I guess that's the excuse for zest to be kicked out at ro 16 at both of his blizzcon runs then.... E: why do you think fromage is not a strat? Like I said, it just shows how life excels in these short tournaments and sOs beating hims shows all the more how good he is.
Nobody is trying to come up with excuses and nobody said cheese isn't a valid strat. Just that Life's play at Blizzcon didn't look solid at all and he still got to the finals.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On May 29 2016 23:24 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:
[quote]
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best. Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 29 2016 23:24 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:
[quote]
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best. such a coincidence that so many players always derped against life.
Beating Life took a very specific skillset that a lot of players didn't have. But this is seriously getting off topic, so I'll drop that argument.
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On May 29 2016 23:26 thecrazymunchkin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:24 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:
[quote]
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best. Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015
His peak level TvZ play looked so flashy that everyone got distracted from the fact that his TvP was always much better and his TvT was also quite weak.
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On May 29 2016 23:25 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:22 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Elentos wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:
[quote]
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck. But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry. maybe but Life's win against lilbow was impressive enough to make up for this. An all time great series. Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:22 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:25 Elentos wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage. I guess that's the excuse for zest to be kicked out at ro 16 at both of his blizzcon runs then.... E: why do you think fromage is not a strat? Like I said, it just shows how life excels in these short tournaments and sOs beating hims shows all the more how good he is. Nobody is trying to come up with excuses and nobody said cheese isn't a valid strat. Just that Life's play at Blizzcon didn't look solid at all and he still got to the finals.
there are multiple paths to victory. Maybe his straight up macro games weren't up to par but who says cheese/allin isn't a legitimate strategy. If he advances to the finals his play was solid. maybe not his macro play but his cheeses/allins were definitely solid.
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Long argument chains about this kind of stuff and i wasn't even involved?? Weird
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On May 29 2016 23:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:
Long argument chains about this kind of stuff and i wasn't even involved?? Weird
MASTER TELL ME YOUR SECRETS
on a more serious note, I agree that this thread is getting too dramatic for its own good. Let's all relax and discuss this some other time?
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On May 29 2016 23:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:26 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On May 29 2016 23:24 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:
[quote]
Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best. Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015 His peak level TvZ play looked so flashy that everyone got distracted from the fact that his TvP was always much better and his TvT was also quite weak.
Although Rain claimed that he personally considers Dream a TvZ specialist at the SSL season 2 qualifiers. Do you think he improved suddenly in LotV?
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On May 29 2016 21:37 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote:
I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in.
2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL.
3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument. Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3". 1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players. If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense  But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"
"sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most"- yes indeed, most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players.
"All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period"-then why does he still have no GSL/SSL title?
"If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense"- your data can sure benefit your argument but they still trash and useless. who define the 60% winrate thing? just you or BLIZZARD official?
I don't agreed your theory because people value titles(especially Korean titles)much more than "winrate". titles means glory but winrate means nothing at the end.
the fact is: your "winrate is everything theory" sounds more like "personal feeling" ,and you with your own personal standards and data, believing it can compel all others to admit your beloved player is the greates/best one of all, that is the true "imagination".
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On May 29 2016 23:13 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 22:45 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:35 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:33 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL. Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago. No, it wasn't. Again, check the data, no "imagination" please I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame. And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
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On May 29 2016 23:39 swissman777 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:29 Elentos wrote:On May 29 2016 23:26 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On May 29 2016 23:24 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:23 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:19 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 23:15 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 23:09 Charoisaur wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:
[quote]
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well.
Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't. As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player. Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go. As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best. Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015 His peak level TvZ play looked so flashy that everyone got distracted from the fact that his TvP was always much better and his TvT was also quite weak. Although Rain claimed that he personally considers Dream a TvZ specialist at the SSL season 2 qualifiers. Do you think he improved suddenly in LotV?
Hard to say. It might be a difference between HotS and LotV that lets his talents shine more in TvZ now. It seems that TvZ is his best MU in LotV so far and he said more than once that he thinks it's almost impossible for Zerg to win against Terran.
Although we can also not rule out that it's just that Zerg is weak in Korea atm or has a hard time adapting to the things he does, and that subsequently his win rate will drop back to his HotS level as Zerg gets perpetually stronger (through either buffs or adaptation).
It is undeniable that he has played some of the most breathtaking TvZs of all time back in 2015 HotS, so I definitely wouldn't say he just suddenly improved, since the basics were already there.
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On May 29 2016 21:52 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
polt and hydra defined that. if they played in Korean region, maybe GSL?could they survive in Code A? I doubt, but the fact was they standed #7 and #11 in 2015 WCS standings, way ahead of your beloved SOS, why? oh because they faced few korean players. this game is just EZPZ when you don't have to face the korean top class players right? it made winning the championships look even easier!
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On May 29 2016 23:40 bestviva wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 21:37 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote:
I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in.
2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL.
3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument. Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3". 1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players. If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling" "sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most"- yes indeed, most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players. "All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period"-then why does he still have no GSL/SSL title? "If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense"- your data can sure benefit your argument but they still trash and useless. who define the 60% winrate thing? just you or BLIZZARD official? I don't agreed your theory because people value titles(especially Korean titles)much more than "winrate". titles means glory but winrate means nothing at the end. the fact is: your "winrate is everything theory" sounds more like "personal feeling" ,and you with your own personal standards and data, believing it can compel all others to admit your beloved player is the greates/best one of all, that is the true "imagination".
"most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players". Is this a joke? Did you check his play history? Which his opponent was not Korean? How many non-Korean he had faced in WCS, IEM WC and other foreign tournaments?
I heard Zest will have a WCS champion this year? Is Hot6 Cup champion a Korean title?
Let's end this conversation right here since "every evaluation is subjective".
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On May 29 2016 23:52 bestviva wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 21:52 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations" polt and hydra defined that. if they played in Korean region, maybe GSL?could they survive in Code A? I doubt, but the fact was they standed #7 and #11 in 2015 WCS standings, way ahead of your beloved SOS, why? oh because they faced few korean players. this game is just EZPZ when you don't have to face the korean top class players right? it made winning the championships look even easier!
Sure, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji are all "top class players", I knew that because they are all GSL champions.
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EPT
