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On May 29 2016 23:41 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:13 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:45 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:35 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:33 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:50 NinjaToss wrote:
[quote]
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL. Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago. No, it wasn't. Again, check the data, no "imagination" please I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame. And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that. As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
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On May 30 2016 00:06 bestviva wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:41 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:13 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:45 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:35 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:33 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote:
[quote]
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament? Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL. Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago. No, it wasn't. Again, check the data, no "imagination" please I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame. And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that. As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended. why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue.
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On May 30 2016 00:00 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:40 bestviva wrote:On May 29 2016 21:37 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote:
I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in.
2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL.
3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument. Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3". 1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players. If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense  But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling" "sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most"- yes indeed, most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players. "All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period"-then why does he still have no GSL/SSL title? "If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense"- your data can sure benefit your argument but they still trash and useless. who define the 60% winrate thing? just you or BLIZZARD official? I don't agreed your theory because people value titles(especially Korean titles)much more than "winrate". titles means glory but winrate means nothing at the end. the fact is: your "winrate is everything theory" sounds more like "personal feeling" ,and you with your own personal standards and data, believing it can compel all others to admit your beloved player is the greates/best one of all, that is the true "imagination". "most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players". Is this a joke? Did you check his play history? Which his opponent was not Korean? How many non-Korean he had faced in WCS, IEM WC and other foreign tournaments? I heard Zest will have a WCS champion this year? Is Hot6 Cup champion a Korean title? Let's end this conversation right here since "every evaluation is subjective".
oh as many korean players as GSL/SSL? and he had many chances to play abroad and that was great because that could gain the WCS point much easier! surely I know he won Hot6 Cup champion so I said "most of " not "all of", can't you read?
and speaking of the"subjective evaluation", don't you gonna share with us your "magical winrate 60% "story?
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That's why I said "all evaluation are subjective", you can say whatever you want, so do I.
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Also, sOs is one of the player who played fewest foreign tournaments, but the point is, when he plays foreign tournament, he usually win the championships.
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On May 30 2016 00:19 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 00:06 bestviva wrote:On May 29 2016 23:41 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:13 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:45 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:35 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:33 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:10 Olli wrote:
[quote]
Did sOs beat all those players? Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL. Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago. No, it wasn't. Again, check the data, no "imagination" please I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame. And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that. As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended. why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted. As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue.
funny. it's you said that "offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships" , according to this, he should won more korean titles than other players since he has the highest winrates .so why not? of course I konw he met korean players in WCS,IEM, DH and MSI final stage,but who he faced almost are the same people he did in korean region. so why ? what's wrong with your data?
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On May 30 2016 00:35 bestviva wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 00:19 Alarak89 wrote:On May 30 2016 00:06 bestviva wrote:On May 29 2016 23:41 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:13 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:45 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:35 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:33 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:16 swissman777 wrote:
[quote]
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well.
Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate? I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own. Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL. Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago. No, it wasn't. Again, check the data, no "imagination" please I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame. And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that. As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended. why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted. As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue. funny. it's you said that "offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships" , according to this, he should won more korean titles than other players since he has the highest winrates .so why not? of course I konw he met korean players in WCS,IEM, DH and MSI final stage,but who he faced almost are the same people he did in korean region. so why ? what's wrong with your data?
Did I say higher offline win rate relates to more "Korean" titles?
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On May 30 2016 00:22 Alarak89 wrote:
That's why I said "all evaluation are subjective", you can say whatever you want, so do I.
can I? your attitude is not so casual when this topic brought up.
"If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"- that's what you said. you poped out an magical winrate theory, and try to compel all others to believe in you, anyone disagreed should provide DATA which must make sense. or it would be pure "imagination" and "personal feeling", and suddenly "all evaluation are subjective" and everyone can have their own opinion finally??
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Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
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On May 30 2016 00:44 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 00:35 bestviva wrote:On May 30 2016 00:19 Alarak89 wrote:On May 30 2016 00:06 bestviva wrote:On May 29 2016 23:41 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 23:13 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:45 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:35 Olli wrote:On May 29 2016 22:33 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 22:21 Olli wrote:
[quote]
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL. Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago. No, it wasn't. Again, check the data, no "imagination" please I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame. And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that. As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended. why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted. As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue. funny. it's you said that "offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships" , according to this, he should won more korean titles than other players since he has the highest winrates .so why not? of course I konw he met korean players in WCS,IEM, DH and MSI final stage,but who he faced almost are the same people he did in korean region. so why ? what's wrong with your data? Did I say higher offline win rate relates to more "Korean" titles?
the data you provide was "vs korean players", so if they doesn't relate to more korean titles, then what they mean? the 60% is magical in what way?
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On May 30 2016 00:04 Alarak89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2016 23:52 bestviva wrote:On May 29 2016 21:52 Alarak89 wrote:On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote:
Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool. Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations" polt and hydra defined that. if they played in Korean region, maybe GSL?could they survive in Code A? I doubt, but the fact was they standed #7 and #11 in 2015 WCS standings, way ahead of your beloved SOS, why? oh because they faced few korean players. this game is just EZPZ when you don't have to face the korean top class players right? it made winning the championships look even easier! Sure, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji are all "top class players", I knew that because they are all GSL champions.
GSL champion title was so overrated, no wonder your beloved player disdained to get one
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
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On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Which do you guys prefer?
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On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
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On May 30 2016 01:07 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it. I've seen arguing over articles without reading them.
I think I made the statement a little more concise.
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On May 30 2016 01:07 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it. Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions 
On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
I never understood why someome should be bothered by people arguing about a topic the article brings up?
It's a good sign imo and if you are open minded you possibly even get something out of it for future articles 
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On May 30 2016 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 01:07 Elentos wrote:On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it. Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them. You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do.
Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it.
So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it 
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On May 30 2016 01:19 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 30 2016 01:07 Elentos wrote:On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it. Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them. You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do. Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it. So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list. That's not necessarily the fault of anyone in this case (even though you obviously should read it to get a better understanding of the criteria used, etc)
But yeah Nathanias () talking down on that espn article was rather stupid considering it was clear he didn't even read it. His explanation after the fact didn't seem to make any sense either.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On May 30 2016 01:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2016 01:19 Elentos wrote:On May 30 2016 01:16 The_Red_Viper wrote:On May 30 2016 01:07 Elentos wrote:On May 30 2016 01:02 Olli wrote:On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote:
Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning. The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it. Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them. You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do. Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it. So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list.
And this is what we all hate
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On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
How can you say, MC did nothing for the past two years? You did not hear his singing "Let it go"? You see? I am sure, if Zest was singing, it would have never been that great! So if you want to count someone as "Titan", you should first check his singing!
On May 30 2016 01:39 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list.
And this is what we all hate
But we discussed also Zest's body and acknowledged, it is OK. So nobody is arguing about Zest's body.
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EPT
