We look at Zest now as the clear number one player in the world, the best Protoss player by a country mile and possibly the best to have ever represented the race. Yet this fact is taken for granted as if the path to this point was easy, as if it was preordained.
The truth of the matter is that in many ways, Zest’s rise to the top was both unlikely and improbable. There was no fanfare about his BW playing career. He was a solid PL player for KT, but not much else. Even his debut into SC2 was lackluster as he continued to put up results in Proleague but nowhere else.
By the time 2014 rolled around there were multiple Protosses that people expected to dominate the world. There was Rain, the savior of PvP and the best Protoss player in both WoL and early HotS. MC, the greatest Protoss of all time who continued to stay relevant after leaving Korea for WCS EU. sOs, the winner of Blizzcon, who had forced the world to recognize his skill after his destruction of Jaedong. Dear, the GSL and WCS Season 3 back-to-back winner, and the Protoss in the hottest form. herO, ace of CJ, the IEM Champion and a consistent GSL player. Parting, the best micro Protoss player to have ever lived.
If you asked anyone before the 2014 season started, everyone would have chosen one of them as the Protoss to watch. We were all wrong.
On February 11th, Zest announced his candidacy for the best Protoss player on earth. He didn’t do it through any interview or post. He did it by all-killing SKT, the best team in the world. He beat Parting, soO, Soulkey and Rain. That was only the start as he faced off against sOs in the Ro8 of GSL. sOs had just come off winning the winner-take-all IEM $100,000 tournament. Zest stomped him into the floor 3-0. He then faced Rain, the best Protoss player that had transferred over from KeSPA. A player that was winning championships when Zest was struggling and failing to get out of Code B. Zest beat him 4-2. In the finals, he beat soO,the best Zerg player in the world and the only player in history to have reached four consecutive GSL Finals.
Zest’s reign in 2014 was so dominant that the only comparable eras were Mvp’s 2011 dominance and Life’s late 2014-early 2015 era. Yet the peak never lasts and by 2015 he had gone from the best Protoss player to merely one among many. He was on a downward decline and as one of the participating players of BlizzCon he had no time to practice for LotV (unlike Lilbow) so he was already behind everyone else. There was no guarantee that he’d even be as good as he once was.
Instead, Zest had a renaissance. He became nearly unstoppable as he crushed his way through the competition, most notably destroying Terrans with such ease that every pro player in the world could only watch in complete awe. He is so far ahead of the meta that he has forcibly dragged every Protoss player forward in skill and understanding by osmosis.
Yet what makes Zest so amazing in the current climate of SC2 is that he is the last surviving titan of SC2. Mvp is retired. Life has been convicted of match fixing. Taeja is counting the days till retirement. MC has come out of retirement and hasn’t been at his peak for years. Polt’s best days are behind him. MMA, Rain, NesTea, and MarineKing are all retired. Leenock, soO and INnoVation have all fallen from their primes.
Zest is the last remaining player that can make headway not just as the best player in the world right now, but the best Protoss player of all time and possibly the last player that may be able to surpass Mvp as the Greatest SC2 player of All Time. While it is unfortunate that there is less depth than ever before in Korean SC2 with the number of retirements, what Zest is doing right now is still amazing and noteworthy. It has reached the point where MC, one of the most self-assured and confident players in SC2, has admitted that Zest will surpass him soon as the greatest Protoss there ever was.
The only player left on the list that can even challenge him is Maru, a player who Zest has decisively beat in every major confrontation they’ve had except for the last Proleague Round Finals. There are still great players like Stats and Dark, but their legacies have just started and they have a long way to go before they can crack into the halls of the Greatest of All Time.
Zest right now is the last remaining player that can not only challenge for the throne of the greatest Protoss, but possibly also the greatest player of all time. What we are witnessing is not just the resurgence of Zest dominance, but a rewriting of the history of SC2. We are witnessing greatness in action.
I enjoy these short pieces that succinctly summarize key things for a person who doesn't really follow SC2 like myself. Makes the few games I do watch here and there have more depth.
I didn't get the logic of the article. If Zest has come from a bad year, why shouldn't the same be possible for soO and Innovation? How is the "they aren't in their prime" argument not disproven by the very previous paragraph? If Inno comes out and starts kicking ass, he's gonna have a far bigger GOAT claim than Zest anyway. It's just really forced into a conclusion.
On May 28 2016 02:54 Charoisaur wrote: I feel bad for criticizing one of the most passionate writers we have but it kinda annoys me that stuchio always takes his opinion for facts.
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: I didn't get the logic of the article. If Zest has come from a bad year, why shouldn't the same be possible for soO and Innovation? How is the "they aren't in their prime" argument not disproven by the very previous paragraph?
True. You can't expect them to stay shitty for the rest of LotV just because they were poor in the first 6 months.
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: If Inno comes out and starts kicking ass, he's gonna have a far bigger GOAT claim than Zest anyway.
Depends on criteria I guess, but I don't think INnoVation has a bigger claim.
On May 28 2016 03:06 megatroneo wrote: Wait why aren't Maru or sOs considered "remaining titans"?
My guess is because they weren't considered titans in the first place. by "titan" I mean that most people agree they're the #1 player for a long period of time, very dominant, someone you can clearly say it's ahead of the pack (no only among their race).
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: I didn't get the logic of the article. If Zest has come from a bad year, why shouldn't the same be possible for soO and Innovation? How is the "they aren't in their prime" argument not disproven by the very previous paragraph?
True. You can't expect them to stay shitty for the rest of LotV just because they were poor in the first 6 months.
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: If Inno comes out and starts kicking ass, he's gonna have a far bigger GOAT claim than Zest anyway.
Depends on criteria I guess, but I don't think INnoVation has a bigger claim.
Yeah, it's hard to judge. Zest has a shitload of big titles, but Innovation had this incomprehensible aura to him. Heck, I wasn't ever really a big fan of his play and would like to punch his funny face every time he pulled the boys, but if he ever comes back to domination ...
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: I didn't get the logic of the article. If Zest has come from a bad year, why shouldn't the same be possible for soO and Innovation? How is the "they aren't in their prime" argument not disproven by the very previous paragraph?
True. You can't expect them to stay shitty for the rest of LotV just because they were poor in the first 6 months.
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: If Inno comes out and starts kicking ass, he's gonna have a far bigger GOAT claim than Zest anyway.
Depends on criteria I guess, but I don't think INnoVation has a bigger claim.
Yeah, it's hard to judge. Zest has a shitload of big titles, but Innovation had this incomprehensible aura to him. Heck, I wasn't ever really a big fan of his play and would like to punch his funny face every time he pulled the boys, but if he ever comes back to domination ...
5 titles vs 4 titles, both 2 starleague victories, both proleague monsters. it's extremely close.
I can't comment on how great Zest is compared to the old greats (pre HotS), but I do feel we're witnessing history nowadays. Seeing your fav player come closer and closer of being one of the greatest, if not the absolute one... What else can I ask for? (well, KT winning Proleague this year would be nice)
On May 28 2016 03:43 Silvana wrote: I liked your article stuchiu but it's too short
I can't comment on how great Zest is compared to the old greats (pre HotS), but I do feel we're witnessing history nowadays. Seeing your fav player come closer and closer of being one of the greatest, if not the absolute one... What else can I ask for? (well, KT winning Proleague this year would be nice)
also obligatory Zest is best.
Waaait, Zest is losing to Snute, so then Snute is the greatest!
Two fun facts about Zest coming into SC2: 1. He was in every starting line up during the hybrid proleague 2. Lizzy along with Acacia were brought onto KT as secret weapons to help take free wins in the SC2 category. Many people were upset KT bought players for SC2 only in the hybrid proleague. It actually backfired on them. Both players were forced to alternate between Brood War and SC2 where they never won a Brood War game and in fact were god awful at the game. KT realizing this eventually just zoned them out of the lineup and both failed to achieve anything in SC2.
On May 28 2016 02:50 swissman777 wrote: sOs is still the best player in my heart for actually making the scene fun and interesting with his mind games
Of course, sOs is the Titan king himself, let us hope, Stuchiu will write a nice article about him soon. In the worst case, sOs will need to show his greatness again and stomp Zest in both SSL and GSL. Then, hopefully, Stuchiu will have to write an article about him :-)
On May 28 2016 02:50 swissman777 wrote: sOs is still the best player in my heart for actually making the scene fun and interesting with his mind games
Of course, sOs is the Titan king himself, let us hope, Stuchiu will write a nice article about him soon. In the worst case, sOs will need to show his greatness again and stomp Zest in both SSL and GSL. Then, hopefully, Stuchiu will have to write an article about him :-)
Well I guess it's good for Zest sOs can only beat him in Proleague. Besides, you don't need an article to know sOs is one of the greatest of all time. Didn't need one for Zest either.
I honestly think it is far too much at this point to say Zest is the best player ever, and only player contending for that spot still active.
herO was the best protoss by a country mile in HOTS for far longer (about 5 ladder seasons) than Zest has been the best Protoss in HOTS/Legacy combined (one season each).
Let's not forget that Innovation, Maru, herO, Dark, sOs, byul are still here, and just because most of them have had a few months of being "lukewarm", Zest had about 2 years of being distinctly average between his GSLs (below Classic, Rain, Stats, SoS and herO in my opinion).
It is indisputable that Zest is the best player right now, and a contender for best player ever. But in my opinion that doesn't warrant this article's level of hyperbole, and I think you have seriously overlooked other players contention for that title, by narrowing your vision to the state of play "right now".
My personal prediction is that Innovation will gradually creep up to the top again, because he's all about slowly and inexorably perfecting his play, but isn't very good at changing his style quickly, so hasn't adjusted to LOTV yet.
On May 28 2016 04:11 Haighstrom wrote: herO was the best protoss by a country mile in HOTS for far longer (about 5 ladder seasons) than Zest has been the best Protoss in HOTS/Legacy combined (one season each).
Zest was the best Protoss in HotS for just about all of 2014, I'm pretty sure that was more than 1 ladder season. And even if it wasn't, it was still many consecutive months.
There is so many INnoVation fanboys in here, I'm very very impressed, I didn't know the guy has that many fanboy
I take this article as the highest form of compliment from stuchiu, considering how much he likes Mvp. If anything I would like to complain about, it would be that this is a bit too short (oh the hopeless fangirl me, I just want to read as much about Zest as I can)
Also it feels good to have Zest's face in the front page
On May 28 2016 03:09 opisska wrote: I didn't get the logic of the article. If Zest has come from a bad year, why shouldn't the same be possible for soO and Innovation? How is the "they aren't in their prime" argument not disproven by the very previous paragraph? If Inno comes out and starts kicking ass, he's gonna have a far bigger GOAT claim than Zest anyway. It's just really forced into a conclusion.
exactly, you can find the same paradoxes in every one of his articles. on top of that the average stuchiu article usually has a lot of wrong information in it and is 90% based on whether he likes said player or not
While i like that Zest gets an own article i completely disagree with
and possibly the last player that may be able to surpass Mvp as the Greatest SC2 player of All Time. While it is unfortunate that there is less depth than ever before in Korean SC2 with the number of retirements
No Zest isn't the only player and no korean sc2 doesn't have less depth than ever before either. You use this as a fact without any reasoning how you come to the conclusion. A lot of the so called "titans" in this article weren't relevant for a very long time, so that cannot be it.
Reading this thread makes me think the people only read the title and not the article lol. It's pretty clear (from the first paragraph) that the Zest GOAT disscusion is currently powered less by his success in HotS and more by his absoultely dominating performance over the past few months
On May 28 2016 07:16 Redrot wrote: What about Maru?
See last part of the article...
Anyway, as good and incredible Maru is, his number of titles is very low compared to how long he's been playing. That's why he's not one of the "Titans", and unless he chain wins premier events in the 3 next years, it will be very hard for him to claim the greatest of all times' throne.
and possibly the last player that may be able to surpass Mvp as the Greatest SC2 player of All Time. While it is unfortunate that there is less depth than ever before in Korean SC2 with the number of retirements
No Zest isn't the only player and no korean sc2 doesn't have less depth than ever before either. You use this as a fact without any reasoning how you come to the conclusion. A lot of the so called "titans" in this article weren't relevant for a very long time, so that cannot be it.
Really? The players left may be more skilled now but i think it's hard to argue against there being less depth. Less teams, smaller rosters, it's pretty self explanatory i reckon. I miss 2012-2013 pro league with all the old BW names as well as GSTL finishing up.
On May 28 2016 07:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: While i like that Zest gets an own article i completely disagree with
and possibly the last player that may be able to surpass Mvp as the Greatest SC2 player of All Time. While it is unfortunate that there is less depth than ever before in Korean SC2 with the number of retirements
No Zest isn't the only player and no korean sc2 doesn't have less depth than ever before either. You use this as a fact without any reasoning how you come to the conclusion. A lot of the so called "titans" in this article weren't relevant for a very long time, so that cannot be it.
Really? The players left may be more skilled now but i think it's hard to argue against there being less depth. Less teams, smaller rosters, it's pretty self explanatory i reckon. I miss 2012-2013 pro league with all the old BW names as well as GSTL finishing up.
Nice article stuchiu. Love me some Zest hype.
The top 8 are roughly as good as a top 8's been throughout SC2; everyone below 8 has dropped off in quality.
Just compare #9-16 from KR 2012-2015 to now, for instance
On May 28 2016 03:06 megatroneo wrote: Wait why aren't Maru or sOs considered "remaining titans"?
Probably because Zest has won more GSL's than the whole JAGW, dunno.
But less starleague than maru, same amount of standard league wins in KR to maru, and no blizzcon cups. What's your point?
Zest has two starleague wins, same as Maru. But Zest also has a KeSPA cup and GSL championship in Korea. Neither has a Blizzcon, but Zest has his IEM WC outside Korea.
Maru could get up there, he has been good enough for a long enough period of time, but he doesn't have many wins to show for it thus far.
OK, enough with this. Zest is not bad ... more precisely - Zest was quite good. But the author did not mention the most recent developments. We need to face the truth:
ZEST IS A LOOSER!
Look at him, how many matches has he won during the last time? More precisely - how many matches has he lost? Sorry but wherever I look, I see Zest losing. From the last 5 matches, how many has he lost? Three our of five? Four out of five? Sorry to destroy your wet dreams about a titan ;-)
On May 28 2016 07:56 The_Red_Viper wrote: While i like that Zest gets an own article i completely disagree with
and possibly the last player that may be able to surpass Mvp as the Greatest SC2 player of All Time. While it is unfortunate that there is less depth than ever before in Korean SC2 with the number of retirements
No Zest isn't the only player and no korean sc2 doesn't have less depth than ever before either. You use this as a fact without any reasoning how you come to the conclusion. A lot of the so called "titans" in this article weren't relevant for a very long time, so that cannot be it.
Really? The players left may be more skilled now but i think it's hard to argue against there being less depth. Less teams, smaller rosters, it's pretty self explanatory i reckon. I miss 2012-2013 pro league with all the old BW names as well as GSTL finishing up.
Nice article stuchiu. Love me some Zest hype.
The top 8 are roughly as good as a top 8's been throughout SC2; everyone below 8 has dropped off in quality.
Just compare #9-16 from KR 2012-2015 to now, for instance
See maybe you are right, but if you wanna use these statements as fact in articles, especially when it is kinda essential for your reasoning then you should actually prove that statement beforehand.
So yeah i think there should be an article about this very topic, especially if you wanna use it as a fact.
On May 28 2016 09:37 Diabolique wrote: OK, enough with this. Zest is not bad ... more precisely - Zest was quite good. But the author did not mention the most recent developments. We need to face the truth:
ZEST IS A LOOSER!
Look at him, how many matches has he won during the last time? More precisely - how many matches has he lost? Sorry but wherever I look, I see Zest losing. From the last 5 matches, how many has he lost? Three our of five? Four out of five? Sorry to destroy your wet dreams about a titan ;-)
Sometimes I have a hard time telling if you're trolling or not
On May 28 2016 09:37 Diabolique wrote: OK, enough with this. Zest is not bad ... more precisely - Zest was quite good. But the author did not mention the most recent developments. We need to face the truth:
ZEST IS A LOOSER!
Look at him, how many matches has he won during the last time? More precisely - how many matches has he lost? Sorry but wherever I look, I see Zest losing. From the last 5 matches, how many has he lost? Three our of five? Four out of five? Sorry to destroy your wet dreams about a titan ;-)
Sometimes I have a hard time telling if you're trolling or not
I've gone with the assumption everything he writes is just trolling. Safer that way
On May 28 2016 04:11 Haighstrom wrote: I honestly think it is far too much at this point to say Zest is the best player ever, and only player contending for that spot still active.
herO was the best protoss by a country mile in HOTS for far longer (about 5 ladder seasons) than Zest has been the best Protoss in HOTS/Legacy combined (one season each).
Let's not forget that Innovation, Maru, herO, Dark, sOs, byul are still here, and just because most of them have had a few months of being "lukewarm", Zest had about 2 years of being distinctly average between his GSLs (below Classic, Rain, Stats, SoS and herO in my opinion).
It is indisputable that Zest is the best player right now, and a contender for best player ever. But in my opinion that doesn't warrant this article's level of hyperbole, and I think you have seriously overlooked other players contention for that title, by narrowing your vision to the state of play "right now".
My personal prediction is that Innovation will gradually creep up to the top again, because he's all about slowly and inexorably perfecting his play, but isn't very good at changing his style quickly, so hasn't adjusted to LOTV yet.
herO was super consistent but not the titan or emperor or anything. He was a very good player but didn't have Zest's king aura.
Maru actually had rather long slumps until late HotS, Dark came late HotS, sOs only wins $100,000 tournaments, ByuL was late HotS too. All of which points to a rather biased view for late HotS. Not to mention when Zest was good, he was good. Like roflstomp Taeja Summer 2013 level of good or lolol Life late 2014/early 2015 level of good. Aka when you saw you were up against him in a tournament or league you wrote your resignation letter, will, and visited your family before you were disgraced on live TV and couldn't show your face to them ever again.
But yeah, I do agree it's too early to call Zest the best yet since it's rather early.
On May 28 2016 09:37 Diabolique wrote: OK, enough with this. Zest is not bad ... more precisely - Zest was quite good. But the author did not mention the most recent developments. We need to face the truth:
ZEST IS A LOOSER!
Look at him, how many matches has he won during the last time? More precisely - how many matches has he lost? Sorry but wherever I look, I see Zest losing. From the last 5 matches, how many has he lost? Three our of five? Four out of five? Sorry to destroy your wet dreams about a titan ;-)
Sometimes I have a hard time telling if you're trolling or not
On May 28 2016 09:37 Diabolique wrote: OK, enough with this. Zest is not bad ... more precisely - Zest was quite good. But the author did not mention the most recent developments. We need to face the truth:
ZEST IS A LOOSER!
Look at him, how many matches has he won during the last time? More precisely - how many matches has he lost? Sorry but wherever I look, I see Zest losing. From the last 5 matches, how many has he lost? Three our of five? Four out of five? Sorry to destroy your wet dreams about a titan ;-)
Sometimes I have a hard time telling if you're trolling or not
I've gone with the assumption everything he writes is just trolling. Safer that way
These KT unbelievers ... it is a valid question, but you are asking this question only in order not to have to ask the real question: "IS HE RIGHT? WHAT IS ZEST'S SCORE FROM THE LAST 5 MATCHES?"
EDIT: What about a new slogan? Instead of "ZEST IS BEST", we could use: "ZEST HAS LOST" ;-)
When making the assertion this player or that player is a Titan...one does not simply look at the last 5 matches. One takes into account season after season. There is very little doubt that Zest is the best player in the world atm.
That said the article does have some odd quips that weaken its punch (oh we are all writing critics here) - no need to mention Lilbow or Marineking or Life (especially that last one). No one actually knows the extent of Life's fixing or illegality - does one credit Armstrong for the races he supposedly won without doping? NO, once a cheat always a cheat, in both past and future. FORGET LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The overall truth of the matter is yes players have beaten Zest and recently, but 2015 and 2016 thus far, Zest has been Dominant and two more major wins will metamorphose him into the Titan the article claims him to be.
When I look at Zest's PvT and PvZ lifetime winning rate, I suddenly realized that he is far from Bonwja. 60% offline event winning rate against Korean player is a magic number for SC2 history, and obviously, sOs is the closest man to that title, all he needs to do is to win a GSL/SSL champion.
On May 28 2016 11:10 AxiomBlurr wrote: When making the assertion this player or that player is a Titan...one does not simply look at the last 5 matches. One takes into account season after season. There is very little doubt that Zest is the best player in the world atm.
That said the article does have some odd quips that weaken its punch (oh we are all writing critics here) - no need to mention Lilbow or Marineking or Life (especially that last one). No one actually knows the extent of Life's fixing or illegality - does one credit Armstrong for the races he supposedly won without doping? NO, once a cheat always a cheat, in both past and future. FORGET LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The overall truth of the matter is yes players have beaten Zest and recently, but 2015 and 2016 thus far, Zest has been Dominant and two more major wins will metamorphose him into the Titan the article claims him to be.
OK, I am not saying, he is bad ...I just see some weakness coming ... who knows, if he qualifies for SSL ;-0
No no no no!!! Don't criticize Armstrong! He did not cheat! He really won that race for the US! He really did the one step, "small step for a man, a giant leap for humanity!" It was not a hoax! They said in TV, it was a real step!
On May 28 2016 11:10 AxiomBlurr wrote: When making the assertion this player or that player is a Titan...one does not simply look at the last 5 matches. One takes into account season after season. There is very little doubt that Zest is the best player in the world atm.
That said the article does have some odd quips that weaken its punch (oh we are all writing critics here) - no need to mention Lilbow or Marineking or Life (especially that last one). No one actually knows the extent of Life's fixing or illegality - does one credit Armstrong for the races he supposedly won without doping? NO, once a cheat always a cheat, in both past and future. FORGET LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The overall truth of the matter is yes players have beaten Zest and recently, but 2015 and 2016 thus far, Zest has been Dominant and two more major wins will metamorphose him into the Titan the article claims him to be.
I think it's a bit different in those situations to be fair. Armonstrong WON by cheating. Life LOST by cheating. All of Lifes' wins are legit, whereas you can question every single one of Armstrongs. You can't doubt Life was an amazing player, if a bit of scumbag.
On May 28 2016 11:10 AxiomBlurr wrote: When making the assertion this player or that player is a Titan...one does not simply look at the last 5 matches. One takes into account season after season. There is very little doubt that Zest is the best player in the world atm.
That said the article does have some odd quips that weaken its punch (oh we are all writing critics here) - no need to mention Lilbow or Marineking or Life (especially that last one). No one actually knows the extent of Life's fixing or illegality - does one credit Armstrong for the races he supposedly won without doping? NO, once a cheat always a cheat, in both past and future. FORGET LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The overall truth of the matter is yes players have beaten Zest and recently, but 2015 and 2016 thus far, Zest has been Dominant and two more major wins will metamorphose him into the Titan the article claims him to be.
I think it's a bit different in those situations to be fair. Armonstrong WON by cheating. Life LOST by cheating. All of Lifes' wins are legit, whereas you can question every single one of Armstrongs. You can't doubt Life was an amazing player, if a bit of scumbag.
Not so, that was my point, we do not know the depth of Life's illegality. It is also a possibility (and given the strength of the illegal gambling syndicates in South Korea, it would not be surprising) if a percentage of his wins were due to throws from his opponents, of which he had knowlegde. We just do not know with certainty. BUT the one thing we do know is that he colluded with the gambling syndicates in the past, that most certainly throws all his matches into doubt for me. Note that word doubt... its as simple as that....his results....cannot be trusted.
Zest on other hand - All his results speak with the same voice, the same tone, the same conviction, the same blade, the same truth, the same might: "FOR AIUR!"
Zest's pvp didn't look too impressive in that WCS Korea the other day against Stats. Actually his play looked far below that of his recent GSL win. I don't know if it's because Stats's pvp made him look bad, or if Zest was just having a bad day.
On May 28 2016 11:10 AxiomBlurr wrote: When making the assertion this player or that player is a Titan...one does not simply look at the last 5 matches. One takes into account season after season. There is very little doubt that Zest is the best player in the world atm.
That said the article does have some odd quips that weaken its punch (oh we are all writing critics here) - no need to mention Lilbow or Marineking or Life (especially that last one). No one actually knows the extent of Life's fixing or illegality - does one credit Armstrong for the races he supposedly won without doping? NO, once a cheat always a cheat, in both past and future. FORGET LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The overall truth of the matter is yes players have beaten Zest and recently, but 2015 and 2016 thus far, Zest has been Dominant and two more major wins will metamorphose him into the Titan the article claims him to be.
I think it's a bit different in those situations to be fair. Armonstrong WON by cheating. Life LOST by cheating. All of Lifes' wins are legit, whereas you can question every single one of Armstrongs. You can't doubt Life was an amazing player, if a bit of scumbag.
Not so, that was my point, we do not know the depth of Life's illegality. It is also a possibility (and given the strength of the illegal gambling syndicates in South Korea, it would not be surprising) if a percentage of his wins were due to throws from his opponents, of which he had knowlegde. We just do not know with certainty. BUT the one thing we do know is that he colluded with the gambling syndicates in the past, that most certainly throws all his matches into doubt for me. Note that word doubt... its as simple as that....his results....cannot be trusted.
Zest on other hand - All his results speak with the same voice, the same tone, the same conviction, the same blade, the same truth, the same might: "FOR AIUR!"
Who knows. If people are so much into match fixing as you imply with Life, maybe people lost in matchfixing against Zest too.
Sigh. What ridiculousness. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that player's wins aren't real especially when they have to go through a whole bracket to win. Zest beating Rain, soO, sOs, Dear, and Soulkey to get the gold at 2014 GSL Season 1 was absolutely amazing. Just as was his dominant run through GSL Season 1 this year. But Life was just as dominant in his peaks throughout HotS. Unless everyone was involved in matchfixing from 2012 and Life was getting all the free wins from it as you suggest, you have to give him credit for his multiple GSL's, MLG's, WCS World Championship, Dreamhacks, and IEM's stretching over these years. And if you don't want to give him credit for all of his wins (which notion is ridiculous since matchfixing is when a player fixes to lose, you don't matchfix to win), you still have to give him credit for at least some of his tourney wins. Also, unless you want to accuse the whole player base of matchfixing, you have to give players credit for their wins. Zest did not get the gold because all the players he was up against lost on purpose and you can't assume the same for Life.
I get it sucks that a top player was involved in matchfixing. But rather than making ridiculous claims and then making your favorite player the only exception, it would be better to actually face the facts of the matter and think logically.
We'll see how this season goes. Zest has actually looked mortal again after his GSL win; and including qualifiers, I think Maru has literally won 19 professional games in a row (someone correct me if I'm wrong) at this point. Maru has of course inherited MarineKing's ability to get my hopes up and then dash them, but it's always possible that this is his season to finally metamorphose into the all-devouring cosmic monster I always hope for...
On May 28 2016 13:30 neutralrobot wrote: We'll see how this season goes. Zest has actually looked mortal again after his GSL win; and including qualifiers, I think Maru has literally won 19 professional games in a row (someone correct me if I'm wrong) at this point. Maru has of course inherited MarineKing's ability to get my hopes up and then dash them, but it's always possible that this is his season to finally metamorphose into the all-devouring cosmic monster I always hope for...
I believe, Zest is broken. Maru has broken him. That was a match, he needed to win, the most important match of the whole season. And he lost. In preparation, he lost to Snute, but I believe, he just did not want to spend the time on some online tournament in the preparation to the Proleague finals. But against Maru, he needed to win. And he did not. Then, he was broken and lost against Stats.
On May 28 2016 13:30 neutralrobot wrote: We'll see how this season goes. Zest has actually looked mortal again after his GSL win; and including qualifiers, I think Maru has literally won 19 professional games in a row (someone correct me if I'm wrong) at this point. Maru has of course inherited MarineKing's ability to get my hopes up and then dash them, but it's always possible that this is his season to finally metamorphose into the all-devouring cosmic monster I always hope for...
I believe, Zest is broken. Maru has broken him. That was a match, he needed to win, the most important match of the whole season. And he lost. In preparation, he lost to Snute, but I believe, he just did not want to spend the time on some online tournament in the preparation to the Proleague finals. But against Maru, he needed to win. And he did not. Then, he was broken and lost against Stats.
Lost one map to Maru, broken. Never change Diabolique. You could become the new sackofwetmice if you keep this up
On May 28 2016 13:30 neutralrobot wrote: We'll see how this season goes. Zest has actually looked mortal again after his GSL win; and including qualifiers, I think Maru has literally won 19 professional games in a row (someone correct me if I'm wrong) at this point. Maru has of course inherited MarineKing's ability to get my hopes up and then dash them, but it's always possible that this is his season to finally metamorphose into the all-devouring cosmic monster I always hope for...
I believe, Zest is broken. Maru has broken him. That was a match, he needed to win, the most important match of the whole season. And he lost. In preparation, he lost to Snute, but I believe, he just did not want to spend the time on some online tournament in the preparation to the Proleague finals. But against Maru, he needed to win. And he did not. Then, he was broken and lost against Stats.
Lost one map to Maru, broken. Never change Diabolique. You could become the new sackofwetmice if you keep this up
Hey, Phredxor, I am sorry, but I do not get you. :-) I do not get your comment "Never change Diabolique". I am really sorry. I also do not get the sackofwetmice, but that is due to my bad English, so that is not a problem. But that "Never change Diabolique" is a problem. Can you, please, explain it to me?
Maybe, the problem is on your side and you did not understand what I wrote. Maybe due to my bad English ... So I will try to explain it to you in some simple words: I always acknowledged Zest as one of the best players, although I am not his fan. In the last two weeks, I witnessed Zest losing to everybody, Zerg, Terran and Protoss. He won one match against Protoss. Then, I read Stuciu's article, which is fine, and then I get to the part of his fans, who shout "Zest is best". So I write here that he has actually lost more games than he won in the last week. And that if he was such a Titan, he would probably not lose it. And I suggest one explanation - Zerg loss, he did not concentrate, Terran loss was a real loss and he became so frustrated from it that he could not concentrate on the next Protoss match. I could rephrase it "I sense weakness". Can you please, explain to me the "Never change Diabolique"? Thanks
I don't think Zest is still at his peak. His PvZ is not so strong now, and his loss to Stats at CrossFinal also means his PvP may not be the best. Anyway, time will tell. What I like SC2 best is that there is no player who can always at the top.
Well, career winning rate pretty much tells everything about a player. Till this point, there are only two players who had overall offline winning rate above 60% and winning rate against each race above 60% as well, they are sOs and Innovation, with 63.67% and 62.20% respectively. The rest players are far from getting close to them as long as any of their four winning rate is below 60%. BTW, I'm only considering Korean opponents.
On May 28 2016 17:07 Alarak89 wrote: Well, career winning rate pretty much tells everything about a player.
It doesn't. Mvp is by consensus one of the greatest players of all time and the King of WoL. He had 2 win rates below 60% even in WoL. They declined heavily in late WoL because of his severe health issues (before 2012 all his win rates were far above 60%). The raw win rate doesn't tell you that.
Life has 1 win rate below 60%. You're basically saying that Life, the second most earning and arguably most accomplished SC2 player of all time, was not on the same level as sOs and INnoVation, solely because one of his win rates was 2% lower than your arbitrary 60% benchmark.
Life ruining his career with matchfixing aside, you should realize that's that's absurd and that your 60% benchmark is not helpful.
Moreover, from LP's definition of the term "bonjwa":
A bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins. However, a bonjwa is not defined by his statistics or records. Rather, a general consensus is reached that he is the most dominant progamer of his era.
Nobody is close to being a bonjwa, great win rates or not, since no streak of dominance has ever been long enough to warrant the title.
still better than all the "lmao lilbow", "lolbow" or "lol lilbow" comments in the first page
factually correct statement?
It is not factually correct. It is not because that you say that something is a fact that specific thing is a fact. If you people followed the scene for more than 6 month or if you were not so envy to use "edgy" formules for you articles you wouldn't actually believe that Innovation has fallen.
It is not factually correct. It is not because that you say that something is a fact that specific thing is a fact. If you people followed the scene for more than 6 month or if you were not so envy to use "edgy" formules for you articles you wouldn't actually believe that Innovation has fallen.
So are you saying he has always been as completely average as he is now? He has done nothing in LotV but he's one of the all-time greats of HotS. He might not make it past the opening round in any tournament this year. You can't help but call this a fall. We call it a fall because we hold him to a high standard as a 2x GSL champion, if he has 0 good tournament runs, he's not playing in his prime capacity.
Heck, his offline TvP win rate in LotV is 35%. That is clearly far below his peak capacity and far below what anyone expects from him. He lost to jjakji in the SSL qualifiers. That is also below what is expected from him.
So to what standard do you hold INnoVation that you so confidently say he hasn't fallen off?
It is not factually correct. It is not because that you say that something is a fact that specific thing is a fact. If you people followed the scene for more than 6 month or if you were not so envy to use "edgy" formules for you articles you wouldn't actually believe that Innovation has fallen.
Can you explain to me how is losing to jjakji, or Stork, or failing to qualify for the SSL this season not means that INnoVation has fallen?
On May 28 2016 17:07 Alarak89 wrote: Well, career winning rate pretty much tells everything about a player.
It doesn't. Mvp is by consensus one of the greatest players of all time and the King of WoL. He had 2 win rates below 60% even in WoL. They declined heavily in late WoL because of his severe health issues (before 2012 all his win rates were far above 60%). The raw win rate doesn't tell you that.
Life has 1 win rate below 60%. You're basically saying that Life, the second most earning and arguably most accomplished SC2 player of all time, was not on the same level as sOs and INnoVation, solely because one of his win rates was 2% lower than your arbitrary 60% benchmark.
Life ruining his career with matchfixing aside, you should realize that's that's absurd and that your 60% benchmark is not helpful.
Moreover, from LP's definition of the term "bonjwa":
A bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins. However, a bonjwa is not defined by his statistics or records. Rather, a general consensus is reached that he is the most dominant progamer of his era.
Nobody is close to being a bonjwa, great win rates or not, since no streak of dominance has ever been long enough to warrant the title.
Well, I never say MVP is a Bonwja since his win rate was below 60%. He was strong in early WoL only because Kespa was not "transformed" into SC2 completely till July 2012. He will be destroyed by any top tier Kespa player nowadays if he is still playing. But yeah, Life is a great player in terms of skills, and he had three out of four win rates above 60% as well, so clearly win rate is one of the (and probably the most important) indicators to evaluate how good a player is overall. LP can say whatever they want, but I only trust in numbers because they are "objective". IMO, the overall win rate is almost "equivalent" to the probability that a player will win any type of championship. For example, sOs has the highest win rate in the league so far, he also had won seven offline individual championships (which is one of the most).
I mean we need to put thing in context. Since the release of LOTV Korean pro scene can be summarized by 3 tournaments. The SSL, the GSL and proleague.
Innovation still has a great pro-league record even if he didn't play that much.
In SSL, he was one of the 3 terran to qualify then lost two tvz in a row and was out. One of those was against soO. In hots tvz was probably his strongest match-up. He was the most solid mmmm player in the world and then at the end of the expansion was the best defensive mech player. Both of those style are not viable against RR into Ultra strategies that zergs were doing back then.
In SSL he lost to Stork in a 3-2 TvP series. TvP never has been his strongest match-up and even if that series happened post adept nerf we need to remember that the TvP is played completely differently than how it was played in hots. Also, he is not the type of player that I except to do well in a environnement where the meta-game is changing so fast. He needs time for it to settle, adapt to it, and then perfect his builds/game plan consequently.
People love to shit on jjakji for some reason. He is a gsl champion who proved himself to be one one of the 10 best terran for a long period of time.
He might not make it past the opening round in any tournament this year.
Yeah, and Hartsem, PtiDrogo won a premier each. What does this mean? It is not Inno fault if the whole pro circuit is trash and meaningless.
He has done nothing in LotV but he's one of the all-time greats of HotS.
In my opinion he is the greatest hots player. Are you all saying that his intrinsic skill just disappeared? Less than a handful of tournament is not enough to judge if a player has fallen or not. Don't disrespect players that proved multiples timestheir worth like that.
On May 28 2016 18:26 PlOko00on wrote: Yeah, and Hartsem, PtiDrogo won a premier each. What does this mean? It is not Inno fault if the whole pro circuit is trash and meaningless.
That has nothing to do with it. If INnoVation isn't playing well and failing in the tournaments he enters, that is not because the WCS system is bad.
On May 28 2016 18:26 PlOko00on wrote: In my opinion he is the greatest hots player. Are you all saying that his intrinsic skill just disappeared?
No, we're saying that he's currently - for whatever reason - unable to play at his peak skill and thus his performance has fallen off. The fact that he is not performing at his peak level is undeniable.
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
On May 28 2016 13:30 neutralrobot wrote: We'll see how this season goes. Zest has actually looked mortal again after his GSL win; and including qualifiers, I think Maru has literally won 19 professional games in a row (someone correct me if I'm wrong) at this point. Maru has of course inherited MarineKing's ability to get my hopes up and then dash them, but it's always possible that this is his season to finally metamorphose into the all-devouring cosmic monster I always hope for...
I believe, Zest is broken. Maru has broken him. That was a match, he needed to win, the most important match of the whole season. And he lost. In preparation, he lost to Snute, but I believe, he just did not want to spend the time on some online tournament in the preparation to the Proleague finals. But against Maru, he needed to win. And he did not. Then, he was broken and lost against Stats.
Lost one map to Maru, broken. Never change Diabolique. You could become the new sackofwetmice if you keep this up
Hey, Phredxor, I am sorry, but I do not get you. :-) I do not get your comment "Never change Diabolique". I am really sorry. I also do not get the sackofwetmice, but that is due to my bad English, so that is not a problem. But that "Never change Diabolique" is a problem. Can you, please, explain it to me?
Maybe, the problem is on your side and you did not understand what I wrote. Maybe due to my bad English ... So I will try to explain it to you in some simple words: I always acknowledged Zest as one of the best players, although I am not his fan. In the last two weeks, I witnessed Zest losing to everybody, Zerg, Terran and Protoss. He won one match against Protoss. Then, I read Stuciu's article, which is fine, and then I get to the part of his fans, who shout "Zest is best". So I write here that he has actually lost more games than he won in the last week. And that if he was such a Titan, he would probably not lose it. And I suggest one explanation - Zerg loss, he did not concentrate, Terran loss was a real loss and he became so frustrated from it that he could not concentrate on the next Protoss match. I could rephrase it "I sense weakness". Can you please, explain to me the "Never change Diabolique"? Thanks
Nah I understood you perfectly. Even the best players in the world can lose against other great players.
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
On May 28 2016 17:07 Alarak89 wrote: Well, career winning rate pretty much tells everything about a player.
It doesn't. Mvp is by consensus one of the greatest players of all time and the King of WoL. He had 2 win rates below 60% even in WoL. They declined heavily in late WoL because of his severe health issues (before 2012 all his win rates were far above 60%). The raw win rate doesn't tell you that.
Life has 1 win rate below 60%. You're basically saying that Life, the second most earning and arguably most accomplished SC2 player of all time, was not on the same level as sOs and INnoVation, solely because one of his win rates was 2% lower than your arbitrary 60% benchmark.
Life ruining his career with matchfixing aside, you should realize that's that's absurd and that your 60% benchmark is not helpful.
Moreover, from LP's definition of the term "bonjwa":
A bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins. However, a bonjwa is not defined by his statistics or records. Rather, a general consensus is reached that he is the most dominant progamer of his era.
Nobody is close to being a bonjwa, great win rates or not, since no streak of dominance has ever been long enough to warrant the title.
Well, I never say MVP is a Bonwja since his win rate was below 60%. He was strong in early WoL only because Kespa was not "transformed" into SC2 completely till July 2012. He will be destroyed by any top tier Kespa player nowadays if he is still playing. But yeah, Life is a great player in terms of skills, and he had three out of four win rates above 60% as well, so clearly win rate is one of the (and probably the most important) indicators to evaluate how good a player is overall. LP can say whatever they want, but I only trust in numbers because they are "objective". IMO, the overall win rate is almost "equivalent" to the probability that a player will win any type of championship. For example, sOs has the highest win rate in the league so far, he also had won seven offline individual championships (which is one of the most).
You underestimate how great Mvp really was. In 2013, long after his peak ended and his body had been completely ruined by injuries, and after the KeSPA transition occured, Mvp still managed to bring a BO5 against INnoVation - the best in the world at the time - to game 5. I don't think many people could have done that when they can't practice the game because they can't feel their own hands. If his body had held up, who knows what world we would live in today.
Besides that, if you set the benchmark to 60% and say that it's "almost equivalent to the probability that a player will win any type of championship", there's still the fact that the player with the most tournament wins in SC2 (TaeJa) only has one win rate above 60% against Koreans.
Zest has won 4 Korean championships - more than either INnoVation or sOs - even though he has 3 worse all-time win rates. So clearly just looking at the win rates doesn't actually tell you enough. Actually, his life time win rates are all barely better than those of Stats and Stats didn't win anything until last week. In terms of achievements, Zest and Stats are in a completely different category, but by win rates they're almost identical.
So what I'm saying is, your view is too narrow-minded. Taking someone out of the picture purely because of a win rate benchmark that you have set - and somewhat arbitrarily, too - you can't justify that.
no one cares toss is broken clearly this is the worst way to say something about a player when the race is favored in all MU's and the only thing a toss player has to worry about is PvP
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
Stats is on a 3 map winning streak against Zest. Check. Mate.
On May 28 2016 19:45 Wintex wrote: i'm certain stats and zest have played more than once. it's just that we'll never be told the actual score line if they don't do a cheeky interview
Well, yeah, it would be great if we got regular updates on the in-house rankings of every team.
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc.
Thanks for the great article stuchiu! I wish there were more tournaments for him to compete in to further show his greatness. He has been so dominant for 5 months now and the only premier tournament he has been able competed in has been gsl Hopefully there is a kespa cup soon.
On May 28 2016 17:07 Alarak89 wrote: Well, career winning rate pretty much tells everything about a player.
It doesn't. Mvp is by consensus one of the greatest players of all time and the King of WoL. He had 2 win rates below 60% even in WoL. They declined heavily in late WoL because of his severe health issues (before 2012 all his win rates were far above 60%). The raw win rate doesn't tell you that.
Life has 1 win rate below 60%. You're basically saying that Life, the second most earning and arguably most accomplished SC2 player of all time, was not on the same level as sOs and INnoVation, solely because one of his win rates was 2% lower than your arbitrary 60% benchmark.
Life ruining his career with matchfixing aside, you should realize that's that's absurd and that your 60% benchmark is not helpful.
Moreover, from LP's definition of the term "bonjwa":
A bonjwa has a very high winning percentage and successive title wins. However, a bonjwa is not defined by his statistics or records. Rather, a general consensus is reached that he is the most dominant progamer of his era.
Nobody is close to being a bonjwa, great win rates or not, since no streak of dominance has ever been long enough to warrant the title.
Well, I never say MVP is a Bonwja since his win rate was below 60%. He was strong in early WoL only because Kespa was not "transformed" into SC2 completely till July 2012. He will be destroyed by any top tier Kespa player nowadays if he is still playing. But yeah, Life is a great player in terms of skills, and he had three out of four win rates above 60% as well, so clearly win rate is one of the (and probably the most important) indicators to evaluate how good a player is overall. LP can say whatever they want, but I only trust in numbers because they are "objective". IMO, the overall win rate is almost "equivalent" to the probability that a player will win any type of championship. For example, sOs has the highest win rate in the league so far, he also had won seven offline individual championships (which is one of the most).
You underestimate how great Mvp really was. In 2013, long after his peak ended and his body had been completely ruined by injuries, and after the KeSPA transition occured, Mvp still managed to bring a BO5 against INnoVation - the best in the world at the time - to game 5. I don't think many people could have done that when they can't practice the game because they can't feel their own hands. If his body had held up, who knows what world we would live in today.
Besides that, if you set the benchmark to 60% and say that it's "almost equivalent to the probability that a player will win any type of championship", there's still the fact that the player with the most tournament wins in SC2 (TaeJa) only has one win rate above 60% against Koreans.
Zest has won 4 Korean championships - more than either INnoVation or sOs - even though he has 3 worse all-time win rates. So clearly just looking at the win rates doesn't actually tell you enough. Actually, his life time win rates are all barely better than those of Stats and Stats didn't win anything until last week. In terms of achievements, Zest and Stats are in a completely different category, but by win rates they're almost identical.
So what I'm saying is, your view is too narrow-minded.
But that was only one game or one BO5 game, I am looking at certain period of time, not just one game. IMO, not only Mvp, also DRG, Nestea, MC are "strong" during WoL due to lacking of "great competitors". We all saw their performance during HotS, or after Kespa switched to SC2 completely, they dropped dramatically. Zest has overall offline win rate 60.82% so far which is 3rd in the league (tied with herO), thus they both had won six championships in their career. Again, It shows win rate do matters. Yeah, there will be few exceptions, but they do not affect the overall effectiveness of win rate. It is one of the most effective and simplest way to evaluate a player.
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc.
Well historically Zest and Stats went 2-0, 1-3, 3-1, 0-2, 1-3 (7-9 total in maps). 4 of those were in HotS but people would call you silly if you doubted that Zest was the overall better player throughout HotS based on that record alone. And in the same vein, Zest's record against Stats alone isn't really enough to doubt Zest's position as the best player (if you add in other factors you might have something though).
In general these head to head records are often just weird. Like sOs having problems with INnoVation historically is just strange and doesn't really add up (it's sOs's best MU and INnoVation's worst, sOs plays a very particular style that most other Terrans have huge trouble figuring out, even when they're better against Protoss than INnoVation).
Stu uses Korean titles as an important criteria. Which is why nobody who's active right now comes close to Zest's 4 Korean Championships.
Innovation has 3, but he's far from good and he's very likely getting eliminated in Code A again. Maru has 2 and is mentioned as someone who might rival Zest. soO has 1 title, 5 finals. But he too isn't in good form. herO has 2. But he too is not at the level to challenge for another one right now. sOs has never won a Korean title. He's won big money yes, but he hasn't performed in Korea outside of Proleague.
Zest in current shape, despite looking mortal since the GSL finals, is still one of the biggest favorites to win another title this year. So yes, he is currently the first player to point at if you're looking for someone to potentially challenge Mvp one day.
On May 28 2016 20:50 Olli wrote: Stu uses Korean titles as an important criteria. Which is why nobody who's active right now comes close to Zest's 4 Korean Championships.
Innovation has 3, but he's far from good and he's very likely getting eliminated in Code A again. Maru has 2 and is mentioned as someone who might rival Zest. soO has 1 title, 5 finals. But he too isn't in good form. herO has 2. But he too is not at the level to challenge for another one right now. sOs has never won a Korean title. He's won big money yes, but he hasn't performed in Korea outside of Proleague.
Zest in current shape, despite looking mortal since the GSL finals, is still one of the biggest favorites to win another title this year. So yes, he is currently the first player to point at if you're looking for someone to potentially challenge Mvp one day.
sOs won Hot6ix Cup, which was a very Korean tournament.
On May 28 2016 20:38 Alarak89 wrote: It is the most effective and simplest way to evaluate a player.
I agree it's simple and quite effective, but IMO it's more effective to do deeper analysis if you really to determine who's the best. Because in the end your win rates don't matter if they don't amount to titles.
On May 28 2016 20:50 Olli wrote: Stu uses Korean titles as an important criteria. Which is why nobody who's active right now comes close to Zest's 4 Korean Championships.
Innovation has 3, but he's far from good and he's very likely getting eliminated in Code A again. Maru has 2 and is mentioned as someone who might rival Zest. soO has 1 title, 5 finals. But he too isn't in good form. herO has 2. But he too is not at the level to challenge for another one right now. sOs has never won a Korean title. He's won big money yes, but he hasn't performed in Korea outside of Proleague.
Zest in current shape, despite looking mortal since the GSL finals, is still one of the biggest favorites to win another title this year. So yes, he is currently the first player to point at if you're looking for someone to potentially challenge Mvp one day.
sOs won Hot6ix Cup, which was a very Korean tournament.
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc.
Well historically Zest and Stats went 2-0, 1-3, 3-1, 0-2, 1-3 (7-9 total in maps). 4 of those were in HotS but people would call you silly if you doubted that Zest was the overall better player throughout HotS based on that record alone. And in the same vein, Zest's record against Stats alone isn't really enough to doubt Zest's position as the best player (if you add in other factors you might have something though).
In general these head to head records are often just weird. Like sOs having problems with INnoVation historically is just strange and doesn't really add up (it's sOs's best MU and INnoVation's worst, sOs plays a very particular style that most other Terrans have huge trouble figuring out, even when they're better against Protoss than INnoVation).
Head to head records may not count if the other player was bad such as the match history with flash and stardust in BW. Flash is still considered the best. However, if a good player cannot seem to surpass another good player, then the player can't be seen as the best player as the other player is beating him and everyone else. Likewise, Stats is in a great form currently and was in 2015 as much as zest was imo. So taking that into consideration, zest still needs to surpass stats in my view to be the best right now.
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc.
Well historically Zest and Stats went 2-0, 1-3, 3-1, 0-2, 1-3 (7-9 total in maps). 4 of those were in HotS but people would call you silly if you doubted that Zest was the overall better player throughout HotS based on that record alone. And in the same vein, Zest's record against Stats alone isn't really enough to doubt Zest's position as the best player (if you add in other factors you might have something though).
In general these head to head records are often just weird. Like sOs having problems with INnoVation historically is just strange and doesn't really add up (it's sOs's best MU and INnoVation's worst, sOs plays a very particular style that most other Terrans have huge trouble figuring out, even when they're better against Protoss than INnoVation).
Head to head records may not count if the other player was bad such as the match history with flash and stardust in BW. Flash is still considered the best. However, if a good player cannot seem to surpass another good player, then the player can't be seen as the best player as the other player is beating him and everyone else. Likewise, Stats is in a great form currently and was in 2015 as much as zest was imo. So taking that into consideration, zest still needs to surpass stats in my view to be the best right now.
Stats can't beat Maru while Zest has beaten Maru more than once in LotV. Therefore Stats can't be the best either. But Maru hasn't beaten Zest in a longer series in a long time. So he can't be the best. But Zest isn't the best either. Which means nobody is the best. Which is implausible.
You should know this line of logic doesn't hold up. Someone has to be the best, but your approach makes it nearly impossible for such a person to exist. Everyone has at least that one player they struggle with. Especially if you take matches from a different expansion into account.
That's some seriously odd logic. Someone doesn't have to beat literally everyone head to head to be recognized as the best. MMA had an ability to beat Mvp, yet Mvp was always the better player.
On May 28 2016 20:50 Olli wrote: Stu uses Korean titles as an important criteria. Which is why nobody who's active right now comes close to Zest's 4 Korean Championships.
Innovation has 3, but he's far from good and he's very likely getting eliminated in Code A again. Maru has 2 and is mentioned as someone who might rival Zest. soO has 1 title, 5 finals. But he too isn't in good form. herO has 2. But he too is not at the level to challenge for another one right now. sOs has never won a Korean title. He's won big money yes, but he hasn't performed in Korea outside of Proleague.
Zest in current shape, despite looking mortal since the GSL finals, is still one of the biggest favorites to win another title this year. So yes, he is currently the first player to point at if you're looking for someone to potentially challenge Mvp one day.
sOs won Hot6ix Cup, which was a very Korean tournament.
On May 28 2016 20:38 Alarak89 wrote: It is the most effective and simplest way to evaluate a player.
I agree it's simple and quite effective, but IMO it's more effective to do deeper analysis if you really to determine who's the best. Because in the end your win rates don't matter if they don't amount to titles.
But you see win rate has positive relationship with championship numbers in general. Like I said before, the higher you win rate is, the better chance you can win more championships.
On May 28 2016 19:45 Wintex wrote: i'm certain stats and zest have played more than once. it's just that we'll never be told the actual score line if they don't do a cheeky interview
Well, yeah, it would be great if we got regular updates on the in-house rankings of every team.
ye lol this would be sweet, but maybe kinda bad for proleague, maybe after each round? :p
On May 28 2016 19:45 Wintex wrote: i'm certain stats and zest have played more than once. it's just that we'll never be told the actual score line if they don't do a cheeky interview
Well, yeah, it would be great if we got regular updates on the in-house rankings of every team.
ye lol this would be sweet, but maybe kinda bad for proleague, maybe after each round? :p
Honestly I don't think it'd change much for Proleague. The players are free to talk about it anyway, it's happened from time to time that it came up in MVP interviews for example. I think in general the teams have a pretty good idea about the rankings even if nobody directly tells each other about it.
The top teams already predict the lineups correctly almost every time anyway. But for us fans this would be something cool & useful.
I remember reading old TL articles where people had similar discussions about Flash. THings like dismissing his results as if they were a lucky streak, predicting him to fall off, saying that X other player (Mind it was?) was more deserving of praise, etc. History repeats itself!
On May 28 2016 23:22 Silvana wrote: I remember reading old TL articles where people had similar discussions about Flash. THings like dismissing his results as if they were a lucky streak, predicting him to fall off, saying that X other player (Mind it was?) was more deserving of praise, etc. History repeats itself!
I both remember and agree, but on the other hand, KT fans (or just Zest fans) sometimes do the opposite in overhyping him. I do think Zest is the best player right now but I also think Protoss is really strong at the highest level. I honestly think we are still too early in LOTV to start saying Zest is the last titan standing, there is still plenty of time for a herO or a Maru or an Innovation to make power moves
On May 28 2016 19:45 Wintex wrote: i'm certain stats and zest have played more than once. it's just that we'll never be told the actual score line if they don't do a cheeky interview
Well, yeah, it would be great if we got regular updates on the in-house rankings of every team.
ye lol this would be sweet, but maybe kinda bad for proleague, maybe after each round? :p
Honestly I don't think it'd change much for Proleague. The players are free to talk about it anyway, it's happened from time to time that it came up in MVP interviews for example. I think in general the teams have a pretty good idea about the rankings even if nobody directly tells each other about it.
The top teams already predict the lineups correctly almost every time anyway. But for us fans this would be something cool & useful.
Maru has been at around the same level for two years and has one trophy to show for I in that time. Unless he starts performing when it matters in individual leagues, he's not getting compared to Flash.
On May 28 2016 23:58 Olli wrote: Maru has been at around the same level for two years and has one trophy to show for I in that time. Unless he starts performing when it matters in individual leagues, he's not getting compared to Flash.
Defends Protoss, attacks the Terran posterboy... You're gonna get more enemies than Stuchiu with his GOAT ranks!
Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
Why is a supposedly predominantly male forum so fixated with bodies of other males? I for one don't see muscle as a quality I would care about. On the contrary, if I don't know you and the only noticeable thing about you is that you work out, I will probably approach you slightly less positively than without this information.
The body of Zest! Sleek swimmer's body, all muscled up and toned! The body of Zest! O, Lord Almighty, I wish I could call it my own! Lord Almighty oooooooooo, I've never been so enticed! Oh I wish I could have the body of Zest!
On May 29 2016 02:11 opisska wrote: Why is a supposedly predominantly male forum so fixated with bodies of other males? I for one don't see muscle as a quality I would care about. On the contrary, if I don't know you and the only noticeable thing about you is that you work out, I will probably approach you slightly less positively than without this information.
You should bear in mind that most of us are also super bored while browsing, and shitposting staves off boredom and inevitable self-reflection.
On May 29 2016 02:28 rotta wrote: The body of Zest! Sleek swimmer's body, all muscled up and toned! The body of Zest! O, Lord Almighty, I wish I could call it my own! Lord Almighty oooooooooo, I've never been so enticed! Oh I wish I could have the body of Zest!
it' s a public forum, please hold back a little bit…;-)
On May 29 2016 02:11 opisska wrote: Why is a supposedly predominantly male forum so fixated with bodies of other males? I for one don't see muscle as a quality I would care about. On the contrary, if I don't know you and the only noticeable thing about you is that you work out, I will probably approach you slightly less positively than without this information.
You should bear in mind that most of us are also super bored while browsing, and shitposting staves off boredom and inevitable self-reflectionmasturbation.
On May 29 2016 02:11 opisska wrote: Why is a supposedly predominantly male forum so fixated with bodies of other males? I for one don't see muscle as a quality I would care about. On the contrary, if I don't know you and the only noticeable thing about you is that you work out, I will probably approach you slightly less positively than without this information.
You should bear in mind that most of us are also super bored while browsing, and shitposting staves off boredom and inevitable self-reflection.
You don't really need to explain the concept of shitposting to me in particular I just find it weird that the bodies are such a frequent topic. Maybe it's because I am lazy and fat.
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
Oooooh!!! Finally!!! Thank you!!! It is so stupid when you are the only one, who cannot laugh about jokes about you ... because you are the only one, who does not understand them ...
On May 29 2016 01:52 bestviva wrote: Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to say that Zest hasn't performed much better than sOs lately. Because aside from his 3-kill against KT, sOs has done nothing this year, while Zest won a GSL and did better in Proleague than sOs. And for "lately" I wouldn't really take anything into account that happened more than 6 months ago.
Which is not to say that that couldn't change soon, since sOs is sOs.
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
I agree with the gist of what you're saying, but I don't think it's right to say that Zest hasn't performed much better than sOs lately. Because aside from his 3-kill against KT, sOs has done nothing this year, while Zest won a GSL and did better in Proleague than sOs. And for "lately" I wouldn't really take anything into account that happened more than 6 months ago.
Which is not to say that that couldn't change soon, since sOs is sOs.
Exactly ... Zest was shaky in the last two weeks, while sOs showed so far his best play in LotV. He seems to be clearly on the way up now. Not only his three wins against KT, but also the level of play was great. Primarily in the games against Losira and TY. In the game against Stats, he was not playing well up to the moment, when his aggression failed and he practically lost the game ... first since this moment, he started to take the perfect risks, perfect executions and fights and won the game. Therefore, I can't wait for the second season of the Starleagues as I expect big things from him. In the same manner, Zest was so dominant in the first season that I expect a time off from him now.
We will see soon: Group D June 23, 2016 - 13:00 KST 3w 4d 1. South Korea Zerg Losira - 2. South Korea Protoss Zest - 3. South Korea Terran Maru - 4. South Korea Protoss Super - 5. South Korea Protoss herO - 6. South Korea Terran Reality -
That will tell us something about the recent form of Zest ... quite enthusiastic about this weird format!!! It will be great!
On May 28 2016 18:33 swissman777 wrote: People keep on saying that zest is the best player right now, but stats keeps on beating him so idk...
They've only played once in LotV.
Yes, and LotV came out very recently so we don't have a lot of data to work with in the first place.
Yeah but I dunno why you say "Stats keeps on beating him". They were exactly even in HotS (which isn't relevant in regards to Zest being the best player right now) and in LotV they've only played once. So I don't really understand what you were trying to say with that.
Well I didn't say in terms of just LotV but just recently, including late 2015 as well. Otherwise, we can't say zest usually has sOs' number or that dark would usually beat maru and etc.
Well historically Zest and Stats went 2-0, 1-3, 3-1, 0-2, 1-3 (7-9 total in maps). 4 of those were in HotS but people would call you silly if you doubted that Zest was the overall better player throughout HotS based on that record alone. And in the same vein, Zest's record against Stats alone isn't really enough to doubt Zest's position as the best player (if you add in other factors you might have something though).
In general these head to head records are often just weird. Like sOs having problems with INnoVation historically is just strange and doesn't really add up (it's sOs's best MU and INnoVation's worst, sOs plays a very particular style that most other Terrans have huge trouble figuring out, even when they're better against Protoss than INnoVation).
Head to head records may not count if the other player was bad such as the match history with flash and stardust in BW. Flash is still considered the best. However, if a good player cannot seem to surpass another good player, then the player can't be seen as the best player as the other player is beating him and everyone else. Likewise, Stats is in a great form currently and was in 2015 as much as zest was imo. So taking that into consideration, zest still needs to surpass stats in my view to be the best right now.
Stats can't beat Maru while Zest has beaten Maru more than once in LotV. Therefore Stats can't be the best either. But Maru hasn't beaten Zest in a longer series in a long time. So he can't be the best. But Zest isn't the best either. Which means nobody is the best. Which is implausible.
You should know this line of logic doesn't hold up. Someone has to be the best, but your approach makes it nearly impossible for such a person to exist. Everyone has at least that one player they struggle with. Especially if you take matches from a different expansion into account.
But we are talking of zest's form right now aren't we? Or were we talking overall best? If the former, then it's quite possible to be beating everyone.
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
Oooooh!!! Finally!!! Thank you!!! It is so stupid when you are the only one, who cannot laugh about jokes about you ... because you are the only one, who does not understand them ...
On May 29 2016 01:52 bestviva wrote: Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
Case closed. That's it.
Anyway ,,, finally someone wrote the truth!!!
You must know that being compared with swag_bro is a compliment
Joking aside, I don't think your posts are bad quality (except some regarding certain controversial topic), but I do have trouble sometimes tellling whether you're being serious or poking fun. In any case, it's all good <3
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
Oooooh!!! Finally!!! Thank you!!! It is so stupid when you are the only one, who cannot laugh about jokes about you ... because you are the only one, who does not understand them ...
On May 29 2016 01:52 bestviva wrote: Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
Case closed. That's it.
Anyway ,,, finally someone wrote the truth!!!
You must know that being compared with swag_bro is a compliment
Joking aside, I don't think your posts are bad quality (except some regarding certain controversial topic), but I do have trouble sometimes tellling whether you're being serious or poking fun. In any case, it's all good <3
No problem ... I am just still a newbie here on this site, so I do not know swag_bro or the sack of mice things, so I have no idea what it means ... if it is positive or negative or if it's an insult ... but never mind.
I am not that serious (except when I comment Noonius's love towards Maru), just here, when I saw the "Zest is best" hype train, just a few days after he had a series of losses, I had to tease it a bit ;-)
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
Oooooh!!! Finally!!! Thank you!!! It is so stupid when you are the only one, who cannot laugh about jokes about you ... because you are the only one, who does not understand them ...
On May 29 2016 01:52 bestviva wrote: Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
Case closed. That's it.
Anyway ,,, finally someone wrote the truth!!!
You must know that being compared with swag_bro is a compliment
Joking aside, I don't think your posts are bad quality (except some regarding certain controversial topic), but I do have trouble sometimes tellling whether you're being serious or poking fun. In any case, it's all good <3
No problem ... I am just still a newbie here on this site, so I do not know swag_bro or the sack of mice things, so I have no idea what it means ... if it is positive or negative or if it's an insult ... but never mind.
I am not that serious (except when I comment Noonius's love towards Maru), just here, when I saw the "Zest is best" hype train, just a few days after he had a series of losses, I had to tease it a bit ;-)
Zest is best has been a fanchant for a long time now, stop teasing us Zest's fan, we know how often he derps
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
That's right. When we talking about GOAT:
sOs had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and one so far in 2016. Life had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and of course none in 2016. herO had one offline championship in 2013, three in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Innovation had one offline championship in 2013, one in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Zest had none offline championship in 2013, four in 2014, one in 2015 and one so far in 2016.
So now you guys tell me who is more "stable" and has "healthier" condition during his career. Also, do not forget to relate the results to their overall win rate, is 60% a magic number?
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
Oooooh!!! Finally!!! Thank you!!! It is so stupid when you are the only one, who cannot laugh about jokes about you ... because you are the only one, who does not understand them ...
On May 29 2016 01:52 bestviva wrote: Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
Case closed. That's it.
Anyway ,,, finally someone wrote the truth!!!
You must know that being compared with swag_bro is a compliment
Joking aside, I don't think your posts are bad quality (except some regarding certain controversial topic), but I do have trouble sometimes tellling whether you're being serious or poking fun. In any case, it's all good <3
No problem ... I am just still a newbie here on this site, so I do not know swag_bro or the sack of mice things, so I have no idea what it means ... if it is positive or negative or if it's an insult ... but never mind.
I am not that serious (except when I comment Noonius's love towards Maru), just here, when I saw the "Zest is best" hype train, just a few days after he had a series of losses, I had to tease it a bit ;-)
Zest is best has been a fanchant for a long time now, stop teasing us Zest's fan, we know how often he derps
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
That's right. When we talking about GOAT:
sOs had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and one so far in 2016. Life had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and of course none in 2016. herO had one offline championship in 2013, three in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Innovation had one offline championship in 2013, one in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Zest had none offline championship in 2013, four in 2014, one in 2015 and one so far in 2016.
So now you guys tell me who is more "stable" and has "healthier" condition during his career. Also, do not forget to relate the results to their overall win rate, is 60% a magic number?
Ultimately it's kind of meaningless to speculate on player legacies while they are still active. Who knows if a slump is a permanent or not? Most people definitely didn't see MMA winning 4 more premiers and getting to the Blizzcon finals after leaving Slayers in 2012.
Hell, MC might make some miracle comeback. Polt might continue to dominate the foreign scene and pick up more premiers, etc. etc.
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
That's right. When we talking about GOAT:
sOs had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and one so far in 2016. Life had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and of course none in 2016. herO had one offline championship in 2013, three in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Innovation had one offline championship in 2013, one in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Zest had none offline championship in 2013, four in 2014, one in 2015 and one so far in 2016.
So now you guys tell me who is more "stable" and has "healthier" condition during his career. Also, do not forget to relate the results to their overall win rate, is 60% a magic number?
Ultimately it's kind of meaningless to speculate on player legacies while they are still active. Who knows if a slump is a permanent or not? Most people definitely didn't see MMA winning 4 more premiers and getting to the Blizzcon finals after leaving Slayers in 2012.
Hell, MC might make some miracle comeback. Polt might continue to dominate the foreign scene and pick up more premiers, etc. etc.
Yes, we don't know if a slump is a permanent or not, but at least, we can "predict" the future by looking at their "trend lines" from past since they have already played four years. It is clear who is more consistent atm after Kespa's transition on July 2012. MMA, MC and Polt are not at same level as those five guys I listed above. If you think they have a chance to be GOAT in future, that's perfectly fine to me But again, I'm not gonna bother with "foreign" Koreans. Besides, their overall offline win rate are below 60% against Koreans anyway.
BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm: All data numbers are from Aligulac.com
Including BO1 (ranked by games win rate): 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
That's right. When we talking about GOAT:
sOs had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and one so far in 2016. Life had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and of course none in 2016. herO had one offline championship in 2013, three in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Innovation had one offline championship in 2013, one in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Zest had none offline championship in 2013, four in 2014, one in 2015 and one so far in 2016.
So now you guys tell me who is more "stable" and has "healthier" condition during his career. Also, do not forget to relate the results to their overall win rate, is 60% a magic number?
you remind me someone on another forum, always display massive data, but the only point behind these data is:SOS is the greatest player of all time, Life, MVP, whoever…they are nothing compare to SOS but this guy never say it directly, he just want to use the data to convince you to admit SOS is the greatest, and he also like to deny other players achievement to make the one he likes look better
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
On May 29 2016 03:05 ejozl wrote: I don't mind people hyping up Zest, though I don't personally think he's performed much greater than sOs or Stats lately. Saying he's the last titan is quite a stretch. There's quite a few contenders to eventually compete with the current GOAT Life. These are as an example sOs and herO. Furthermore saying Rain and Marineking were titans and then not acknowledging sOs and herO as current titans is quite foolish.
That's right. When we talking about GOAT:
sOs had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and one so far in 2016. Life had two offline championships in 2013, two in 2014, two in 2015 and of course none in 2016. herO had one offline championship in 2013, three in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Innovation had one offline championship in 2013, one in 2014, two in 2015 and none so far in 2016. Zest had none offline championship in 2013, four in 2014, one in 2015 and one so far in 2016.
So now you guys tell me who is more "stable" and has "healthier" condition during his career. Also, do not forget to relate the results to their overall win rate, is 60% a magic number?
you remind me someone on another forum, always display massive data, but the only point behind these data is:SOS is the greatest player of all time, Life, MVP, whoever…they are nothing compare to SOS but this guy never say it directly, he just want to use the data to convince you to admit SOS is the greatest, and he also like to deny other players achievement to make the one he likes look better
I don't know who you are talking about, but if that's true, then we do have something in common, we trust in numbers because they are objective, whereas people's "imagination" is subjective
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
I know, he would need some foreign individual tournaments to "catch the wind" again, as he did last year at MLG ... I am afraid, he does not have much chance to get to BlizzCon this year, let's hope ...
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
I know, he would need some foreign individual tournaments to "catch the wind" again, as he did last year at MLG ... I am afraid, he does not have much chance to get to BlizzCon this year, let's hope ...
Well, I rather hope he can get a GSL/SSL champion instead of BlizzCon to complete "the Grand Slam" Also don't forget, he might play with AlphaGo at the end of this year too, so it will be a really busy year for him if he won GSL/SSL S2
On May 28 2016 16:03 Silvana wrote: Diabolique is not the next sackofwetmice, he is more like swag_bro: "Zest is in a slump!"
Grrrrr!!!! I do not now the sack of wer mice, I also do not know the swar bro!!! Bastards!!! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate! Translate!
They were trolls that eventually got banned. SackOfWetMice would continuously claim that Zest is a no-skill Patchtoss (in the LR thread of a tournament that Zest ended up winning), while swag_bro would claim that a player is in a slump should he lose or that the same player is the best in the world should he win.
So what Silvana is implying is that you're not exactly a quality poster but at least your posts are funny.
Oooooh!!! Finally!!! Thank you!!! It is so stupid when you are the only one, who cannot laugh about jokes about you ... because you are the only one, who does not understand them ...
On May 29 2016 01:52 bestviva wrote: Guys! You all think too much. why is Zest a Titan? because he has a body just like the Greek's gods, it's not about winrate not about titles, it just about stuchiu's pure adoration about a SC2 progamer's body(sounds weird )
Case closed. That's it.
Anyway ,,, finally someone wrote the truth!!!
You must know that being compared with swag_bro is a compliment
Joking aside, I don't think your posts are bad quality (except some regarding certain controversial topic), but I do have trouble sometimes tellling whether you're being serious or poking fun. In any case, it's all good <3
No problem ... I am just still a newbie here on this site, so I do not know swag_bro or the sack of mice things, so I have no idea what it means ... if it is positive or negative or if it's an insult ... but never mind.
I am not that serious (except when I comment Noonius's love towards Maru), just here, when I saw the "Zest is best" hype train, just a few days after he had a series of losses, I had to tease it a bit ;-)
Wait, I see your # of posts made on TL and I wonder how you are a newbie? Even I remember swag_bro.
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
I know, he would need some foreign individual tournaments to "catch the wind" again, as he did last year at MLG ... I am afraid, he does not have much chance to get to BlizzCon this year, let's hope ...
Well, I rather hope he can get a GSL/SSL champion instead of BlizzCon to complete "the Grand Slam" Also don't forget, he might play with AlphaGo at the end of this year too, so it will be a really busy year for him if he won GSL/SSL S2
I'm pretty sure Google never said anything about that happening this year.
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
I know, he would need some foreign individual tournaments to "catch the wind" again, as he did last year at MLG ... I am afraid, he does not have much chance to get to BlizzCon this year, let's hope ...
Well, I rather hope he can get a GSL/SSL champion instead of BlizzCon to complete "the Grand Slam" Also don't forget, he might play with AlphaGo at the end of this year too, so it will be a really busy year for him if he won GSL/SSL S2
I'm pretty sure Google never said anything about that happening this year.
Mvp had periods of losing matches as well. He won tournaments in the end though. There were people with better overall winrates I assume. Yet Mvp was the one winning GSLs.
Nobody currently active comes as close to that ability as Zest. Dominated 2014 harder than anyone has since Mvp. "Slumped" throughout 2015 (was still tied best Proleague player by the end and won an IEM WC). 2016 and he dominates the first GSL, dropping 3 maps total, beating down all 3 of the other semifinalists on his way. Still one of the best Proleague players. GSL seed, qualified for SSL challenger. Yes he's lost matches since, but the only reason why you're even pointing this out is because he didn't before. When you're dominating as hard as he was, it's almost impossible not to fall off a tiny bit.
Getting beaten by Stats, possibly the #1 in form player, and a couple dodgy losses here and there don't change the big picture. Zest dominated GSL, he's either the outright best player in the world or up there with a select 1-4, and he's in prime position to continue his success.
So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
On May 29 2016 19:04 Olli wrote: Mvp had periods of losing matches as well. He won tournaments in the end though. There were people with better overall winrates I assume. Yet Mvp was the one winning GSLs.
Nobody currently active comes as close to that ability as Zest. Dominated 2014 harder than anyone has since Mvp. "Slumped" throughout 2015 (was still tied best Proleague player by the end and won an IEM WC). 2016 and he dominates the first GSL, dropping 3 maps total, beating down all 3 of the other semifinalists on his way. Still one of the best Proleague players. GSL seed, qualified for SSL challenger. Yes he's lost matches since, but the only reason why you're even pointing this out is because he didn't before. When you're dominating as hard as he was, it's almost impossible not to fall off a tiny bit.
Getting beaten by Stats, possibly the #1 in form player, and a couple dodgy losses here and there don't change the big picture. Zest dominated GSL, he's either the outright best player in the world or up there with a select 1-4, and he's in prime position to continue his success.
So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
It's just Jin Air fans. Maru n sOs are the GOAT's in their eyes Like the GOAT list stuch did, lots were trying to say sOs should be #1 or 2 or some shit.
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
I know, he would need some foreign individual tournaments to "catch the wind" again, as he did last year at MLG ... I am afraid, he does not have much chance to get to BlizzCon this year, let's hope ...
Well, I rather hope he can get a GSL/SSL champion instead of BlizzCon to complete "the Grand Slam" Also don't forget, he might play with AlphaGo at the end of this year too, so it will be a really busy year for him if he won GSL/SSL S2
I'm pretty sure Google never said anything about that happening this year.
On May 29 2016 19:04 Olli wrote: So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
it takes a special kind of person to be a dedicated sOs fan in the first place
This article is the perfect example where legitimate criticism gets drowned in fanboy shitposting Is sOs the GOAT? I don't think so. Is Zest the currently most dominating player. I would agree. Is he the last titan? Not really.
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
On May 29 2016 19:04 Olli wrote: Mvp had periods of losing matches as well. He won tournaments in the end though. There were people with better overall winrates I assume. Yet Mvp was the one winning GSLs.
Nobody currently active comes as close to that ability as Zest. Dominated 2014 harder than anyone has since Mvp. "Slumped" throughout 2015 (was still tied best Proleague player by the end and won an IEM WC). 2016 and he dominates the first GSL, dropping 3 maps total, beating down all 3 of the other semifinalists on his way. Still one of the best Proleague players. GSL seed, qualified for SSL challenger. Yes he's lost matches since, but the only reason why you're even pointing this out is because he didn't before. When you're dominating as hard as he was, it's almost impossible not to fall off a tiny bit.
Getting beaten by Stats, possibly the #1 in form player, and a couple dodgy losses here and there don't change the big picture. Zest dominated GSL, he's either the outright best player in the world or up there with a select 1-4, and he's in prime position to continue his success.
So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
It's just Jin Air fans. Maru n sOs are the GOAT's in their eyes Like the GOAT list stuch did, lots were trying to say sOs should be #1 or 2 or some shit.
It is not like sOs was winning some of the greatest tournaments of HOTS era...
On May 29 2016 10:48 Alarak89 wrote: BTW, below are the offline win rates for main Protoss players against Korean opponents atm:
Including BO1: 1. sos in games 63.67%, in matches 66.67% 2. rain in games 61.36%, in matches 66.78% 3. hero in games 60.82%, in matches 64.72% 4. zest in games 60.82%, in matches 63.57% 5. dear in games 60.54%, in matches 63.68% 6. classic in games 60.47%, in matches 62.50% 7. stats in games 59.60%, in matches 63.16% 8. parting in games 59.10%, in matches 62.54%
Only BO5+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 61.35%, in matches 71.05% 2. classic in games 60.32%, in matches 68.97% 3. hero in games 58.10%, in matches 68.09% 4. zest in games 59.38%, in matches 64.86% 5. dear in games 55.73%, in matches 63.33% 6. stats in games 52.56%, in matches 58.82% 7. rain in games 52.63%, in matches 54.76% 8. parting in games 52.96%, in matches 48.28%
Only BO3+ (ranked by matches win rate): 1. sos in games 63.74%, in matches 70.00% 2. rain in games 60.17%, in matches 67.50% 3. dear in games 60.96%, in matches 67.44% 4. hero in games 60.20%, in matches 66.86% 5. zest in games 60.10%, in matches 64.80% 6. classic in games 60.27%, in matches 63.36% 7. stats in games 58.12%, in matches 63.27% 8. parting in games 58.90%, in matches 63.22%
Sorry man, nobody cares about the statistics ... you heard it here, "Zest is Best" and it doesn't help to prove it wrong, he has the best body, the most passionate supporters, even if his winning rate decreases below 50%, he will still be Best. Because it is in fact his name, "Zest the Best".
By the way, it is nice to see that sOs still keeps good winning rates despite the deep hole, in which he was in the first half of 2016. Now it can only go up!!! His performance against Losira and TY in the Proleague finals was awesome!
And Zest has the best glasses ever, right? Learn more math/stats man, it can tell you a lot You think sOs was in a deep hole in first half of 2016? Yes, he was in a hole at very beginning, but that's not a "deep" hole and only because there were not enough individual tournaments in Korea. Don't forget, he had an offline championship in 2016 already. If a champion was in a "deep hole", then what about other players? In a "super deep" hole? Again, do not use your "imagination", always keep track of their win rate and that's the simplest and most effective way to "visualize" their current status. If the win rate for a player is growing constantly, then there is no way he is in a "deep hole" And because sOs's win rate didn't drop much even he was "in a hole", I knew he will be back eventually and there he is. I would say remember their win rate and check it back every two months, you will save tons of time to evaluate their form This is not just for sOs, it is useful to any player.
Well, for me, sOs was in a deep hole all the time between the last IEM victory and his victory against Stats in the Proleague finals. Why? Because he has lost against every reasonably good player, even some mediocre players, he has beaten only a few poor players. So here his winrate did not mean anything for me. And he is not back yet, even when I very much hope so, but we will see it in GSL and SSL in the coming weeks ...
Unfortunately, there are few individual tournaments left in Korea. Yeah, he lost many Bo1 in SPL, but only Bo5+ matches will tell a player is strong enough or not, at least Bo3. We'll see though
I know, he would need some foreign individual tournaments to "catch the wind" again, as he did last year at MLG ... I am afraid, he does not have much chance to get to BlizzCon this year, let's hope ...
Well, I rather hope he can get a GSL/SSL champion instead of BlizzCon to complete "the Grand Slam" Also don't forget, he might play with AlphaGo at the end of this year too, so it will be a really busy year for him if he won GSL/SSL S2
I'm pretty sure Google never said anything about that happening this year.
That's why I'm saying "might"
I don't think there's any possibility of it happening this year. From scratch creating an AI capable of competing with a top level Korean pro in SC2? No way they can do that in less than 9 months.
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
On May 29 2016 19:04 Olli wrote: Mvp had periods of losing matches as well. He won tournaments in the end though. There were people with better overall winrates I assume. Yet Mvp was the one winning GSLs.
Nobody currently active comes as close to that ability as Zest. Dominated 2014 harder than anyone has since Mvp. "Slumped" throughout 2015 (was still tied best Proleague player by the end and won an IEM WC). 2016 and he dominates the first GSL, dropping 3 maps total, beating down all 3 of the other semifinalists on his way. Still one of the best Proleague players. GSL seed, qualified for SSL challenger. Yes he's lost matches since, but the only reason why you're even pointing this out is because he didn't before. When you're dominating as hard as he was, it's almost impossible not to fall off a tiny bit.
Getting beaten by Stats, possibly the #1 in form player, and a couple dodgy losses here and there don't change the big picture. Zest dominated GSL, he's either the outright best player in the world or up there with a select 1-4, and he's in prime position to continue his success.
So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
It's just Jin Air fans. Maru n sOs are the GOAT's in their eyes Like the GOAT list stuch did, lots were trying to say sOs should be #1 or 2 or some shit.
It is not like sOs was winning some of the greatest tournaments of HOTS era...
Hey I like sOs and think he's great. But people ranking him above Life or Mvp are just delusional.
On May 29 2016 19:04 Olli wrote: Mvp had periods of losing matches as well. He won tournaments in the end though. There were people with better overall winrates I assume. Yet Mvp was the one winning GSLs.
Nobody currently active comes as close to that ability as Zest. Dominated 2014 harder than anyone has since Mvp. "Slumped" throughout 2015 (was still tied best Proleague player by the end and won an IEM WC). 2016 and he dominates the first GSL, dropping 3 maps total, beating down all 3 of the other semifinalists on his way. Still one of the best Proleague players. GSL seed, qualified for SSL challenger. Yes he's lost matches since, but the only reason why you're even pointing this out is because he didn't before. When you're dominating as hard as he was, it's almost impossible not to fall off a tiny bit.
Getting beaten by Stats, possibly the #1 in form player, and a couple dodgy losses here and there don't change the big picture. Zest dominated GSL, he's either the outright best player in the world or up there with a select 1-4, and he's in prime position to continue his success.
So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
It's just Jin Air fans. Maru n sOs are the GOAT's in their eyes Like the GOAT list stuch did, lots were trying to say sOs should be #1 or 2 or some shit.
It is not like sOs was winning some of the greatest tournaments of HOTS era...
Hey I like sOs and think he's great. But people ranking him above Life or Mvp are just delusional.
IIRC the greatest discussion about sOs was his 7th place in the best plaer of HOTS era. There's no Mvp in HOTS.
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
Better count Maru out then, he won nothing in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
Better count Maru out then, he won nothing in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014.
I never say he is "in" since his offline win rates against Koreans are below 60% as well.
I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in. 2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL. 3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.
Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.
Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"
My bad I am only counting premiers and forgot the MSI.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.
Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"
My bad I am only counting premiers and forgot the MSI.
That's fine. But you saw how evenly his championships distributed throughout four years, right? That's what I called "healthy" and "stable"
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
I love both sOs and herO, but as long as they are not able to win a GSL championship in a time, when no one is believing in the race called Protoss, the are not greater than MC. MC won several tournaments, but the most important is his GSL victory. MC was one of the most important Protoss players.
Jeez, I love sOs but right now Zest is stronger, faster and better. If we look at the bigger picture, consistency is with Zest. sOs is more binary. He's either awful or in godmode.
On May 29 2016 20:21 opisska wrote: I'd put the limit at 69 personally
You can put the limit at 99% if you want, but you have to be realistic If someday, several players can reach that number, of course that will be the new cut-off point
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote: If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote: The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.
But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.
He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.
Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.
Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.
There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.
So who does come close?
Snute? :-P He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination" Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
I love both sOs and herO, but as long as they are not able to win a GSL championship in a time, when no one is believing in the race called Protoss, the are not greater than MC. MC won several tournaments, but the most important is his GSL victory. MC was one of the most important Protoss players.
Jeez, I love sOs but right now Zest is stronger, faster and better. If we look at the bigger picture, consistency is with Zest. sOs is more binary. He's either awful or in godmode.
Again, when you say "the most important", you are using your "imagination" and personal feeling because there is no data to support your argument I am not saying who is stronger, I am saying Zest is not "the last Titian" atm if you are talking about GOAT. Regarding to "consistency", how "big" is your picture? Bigger than a year? Can you find another player with his championships so evenly distributed throughout his career?
The fact that sOs's titles are distributed so evenly hurts him more than it helps him when it comes to stuchiu. Because what it amounts to in the end is that he is one of the most consistent players at the top but he never has the streaks of complete dominance where he just destroys everyone for several months in a row. Never more than 2 titles per year.
Also, interesting tidbit, according to aligulac sOs has better win rates in GSL than Zest but Zest has 3 GSL titles and sOs none.
Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
On May 29 2016 19:04 Olli wrote: Mvp had periods of losing matches as well. He won tournaments in the end though. There were people with better overall winrates I assume. Yet Mvp was the one winning GSLs.
Nobody currently active comes as close to that ability as Zest. Dominated 2014 harder than anyone has since Mvp. "Slumped" throughout 2015 (was still tied best Proleague player by the end and won an IEM WC). 2016 and he dominates the first GSL, dropping 3 maps total, beating down all 3 of the other semifinalists on his way. Still one of the best Proleague players. GSL seed, qualified for SSL challenger. Yes he's lost matches since, but the only reason why you're even pointing this out is because he didn't before. When you're dominating as hard as he was, it's almost impossible not to fall off a tiny bit.
Getting beaten by Stats, possibly the #1 in form player, and a couple dodgy losses here and there don't change the big picture. Zest dominated GSL, he's either the outright best player in the world or up there with a select 1-4, and he's in prime position to continue his success.
So what on earth makes some people here think that sOs, who hadn't qualified for either GSL or SSL, has never won a GSL or SSL, is as close to rivaling Mvp according to stu's criteria and going forward, is absolutely beyond my understanding.
I'll explain to you why, here's their logic:
1. SOS won the BLIZZCON champion in 2013, but Zest was nobody and achieved nothing in 2013, how dare you Zest fans compare a NOBODY to the almighty SOS! Zest was a loser in 2013 that was a fact can not be changed, but SOS will have a great chance to win a GSL/SSL champion in 2016 which has gone half. Remember guys, if A achieved nothing in one year and B has achieved something, that means A will NEVER be a better player than B!
2. Winrate is everything!! winrate "60%" is such a "magical” number! It is the only perfect and fair standard to judge whether a player is great or not, look at my list , can't you see SOS' winrate is #1 above all the other protosses? yes I know almost every other on my list has won GSL/SSL champion, but SO WHAT? what does a GSL/SSL champion use for when you don't have a high winrate ? NOTHING! And all the GSL/SSL champions can go fuck themselves for their poor winrate too!
3. SOS is going to play Alpha Go this year, the whole universe has confirmed that. he's going to represent the human being as a progamer to fight against the AI. Amazing! and I'm sure he will win because he has the highest winrate of the world, and what about AlphaGo's winrate? 0%...I'm sorry..
------- I like SOS , but some of his fans are just.....speechless.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
Turns out that was just a problem with Aligulac because the 2014 seasons are listed as WCS Korea instead of GSL which tanks Zest's win ratios. Still, removing Zest's best and sOs's worst year of GSL has a pretty interesting effect.
I agree that the obsession with numbers is silly, especially that arbitrary 60% number that doesn't mean anything.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote: I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in. 2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL. 3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3".
1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players.
If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
you mean trash players like herO, Classic and Zest? yeah protoss was really imba when even such bad players can suddenly become good.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
you mean trash players like herO, Classic and Zest? yeah protoss was really imba when even such bad players can suddenly become good.
I love to defend protoss, but protoss was definitely too strong then.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
you mean trash players like herO, Classic and Zest? yeah protoss was really imba when even such bad players can suddenly become good.
I love to defend protoss, but protoss was definitely too strong then.
I know I just wanted to say that the so called "patchtosses" back then turned out to be legit.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
you mean trash players like herO, Classic and Zest? yeah protoss was really imba when even such bad players can suddenly become good.
I love to defend protoss, but protoss was definitely too strong then.
I know I just wanted to say that the so called "patchtosses" back then turned out to be legit.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
So Blizzard patched those things so the community would shut up and not because they had statistical evidence that there were problems?
You know what there might be something to that theory. Regardless, the idea that there was imbalance there is not born out of nothing.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
Life was one of the very, very few who was demonstrably great at both.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
That's the thing though. Zest has won weekend tournaments - Kespa Cup, GSL Global Championship, IEM WC. But he's also won GSLs. sOs hasn't.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
If I remember correctly, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji and Roro are all GSL champions, right? So they must all got an "easier" brackect?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
That's why every evaluation is in the end subject to different criteria and therefore subjective.
On May 29 2016 21:53 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:44 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:43 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:35 Elentos wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:33 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:25 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
If I remember correctly, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji and Roro are all GSL champions, right? So they must all got an "easier" brackect?
Funny that you bring these up, because they're perfect examples to counter your argument. Jjakji benefited from people not knowing him and very strong TvZ, Sniper won a GSL during BL/infestor imbalance, Seed won his GSL with unconventional strategies before he was figured out, Roro won during BL/infestor imbalance.
None of this would be shown in your statistics. That's exactly why you need to take a massive number of different factors into account, which you don't. That's why your arguments are flawed.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
That's the thing though. Zest has won weekend tournaments - Kespa Cup, GSL Global Championship, IEM WC. But he's also won GSLs. sOs hasn't.
GSL Global Championship was not that prestigious though, it only consisted of eight players or sth. But I see your point. Still, Hot6ix tournament was kind of prepartory tournament with only the finals was unknown.
One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
That's why every evaluation is in the end subject to different criteria and therefore subjective.
On May 29 2016 21:53 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:44 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:43 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:35 Elentos wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:33 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:25 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
If I remember correctly, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji and Roro are all GSL champions, right? So they must all got an "easier" brackect?
Funny that you bring these up, because they're perfect examples to counter your argument. Jjakji benefited from people not knowing him and very strong TvZ, Sniper won a GSL during BL/infestor imbalance, Seed won his GSL with unconventional strategies before he was figured out, Roro won during BL/infestor imbalance.
None of this would be shown in your statistics. That's exactly why you need to take a massive number of different factors into account, which you don't. That's why your arguments are flawed.
No, they are the perfect examples showing that a GSL champion is just not as "valuable" as you think
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
zest vs maru was the week after the adept and overcharge nerf.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
Zest and Maru played after Protoss got nerfed. Besides, what kind of excuse is that?
On May 29 2016 22:16 Olli wrote: One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
Who knows if the "new format" will stay forever? Who knows if sOs cannot win a GSL/SSL?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
On May 29 2016 22:16 Olli wrote: One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
Who knows if the "new format" will stay forever? Who knows if sOs cannot win a GSL/SSL?
Please put a space between the end of your sentences and your smiley faces, my OCD can't handle this.
The format isn't going to change drastically any time soon as long as ESL and Dreamhack want to have foreigners win their tournaments.
On May 29 2016 22:16 Olli wrote: One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
Who knows if the "new format" will stay forever? Who knows if sOs cannot win a GSL/SSL?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
So 62.07% is bigger than 64.06% and 65.32%?
I thought we only count offline vs Koreans. And by that metric his PvP was 65% in 2015 and his PvZ 61%. His PvP from 2014 to the end of HotS: 63.21%, PvZ: 61.48%.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
So 62.07% is bigger than 64.06% and 65.32%?
I thought we only count offline vs Koreans. And by that metric his PvP was 65% in 2015 and his PvZ 61%. His PvP from 2014 to the end of HotS: 63.21%, PvZ: 61.48%.
I don't even know how you got any of those 3 numbers.
Those are his offline career win rate against P, Z, and T respectively.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
So 62.07% is bigger than 64.06% and 65.32%?
I thought we only count offline vs Koreans. And by that metric his PvP was 65% in 2015 and his PvZ 61%. His PvP from 2014 to the end of HotS: 63.21%, PvZ: 61.48%.
I don't even know how you got any of those 3 numbers.
Those are his career win rate against P, Z, and T respectively.
You just went and did life time win rates but those don't matter because his win rates were different every year. In 2013 his PvZ was his best matchup and PvT the worst. In 2014 his PvT was his best and PvP the worst. In 2015 his PvT was the best and PvZ the worst.
Not to mention that those include LotV and WoL games that are completely irrelevant for 2015 Blizzcon. So yeah, by career win rate his PvP is his worst matchup, but not by the factual basis of games played in Heart of the Swarm in the year 2015.
On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote: [quote] I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
So 62.07% is bigger than 64.06% and 65.32%?
I thought we only count offline vs Koreans. And by that metric his PvP was 65% in 2015 and his PvZ 61%. His PvP from 2014 to the end of HotS: 63.21%, PvZ: 61.48%.
I don't even know how you got any of those 3 numbers.
Those are his career win rate against P, Z, and T respectively.
You just went and did life time win rates but those don't matter because his win rates were different every year. In 2013 his PvZ was his best matchup and PvT the worst. In 2014 his PvT was his best and PvP the worst. In 2015 his PvT was the best and PvZ the worst.
Not to mention that those include LotV and WoL games that are completely irrelevant for 2015 Blizzcon. So yeah, by career win rate his PvP is his worst matchup, but not by the factual basis of games played in Heart of the Swarm in the year 2015.
Well, Olli didn't say it was life time or only 2015 either. Besides, adjusting and adapting new version of SC2 quickly is also an ability that a top-tier should have, there is no excuse about that.
On May 29 2016 23:01 Alarak89 wrote: Besides, adjusting new version of SC2 quickly is also an ability that a top-tier should have, there is no excuse about that.
To your argument, then Zest is clearly the better player right now, as he adapted to this expansion better than the others by winning the GSL
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
On May 29 2016 23:01 Alarak89 wrote: Besides, adjusting new version of SC2 quickly is also an ability that a top-tier should have, there is no excuse about that.
To your argument, then Zest is clearly the better player right now, as he adapted to this expansion better than the others by winning the GSL
"the better player" = "the last Titian"? I never say he is not "the better player" atm, but are two statement equivalent? Again, what did he do to adjust and to adapt during 2013 when WoL ended?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
I thought you're so big on win rates, how do you not know that his PvP win rate was better than his PvZ win rate since 2014?
So 62.07% is bigger than 64.06% and 65.32%?
I thought we only count offline vs Koreans. And by that metric his PvP was 65% in 2015 and his PvZ 61%. His PvP from 2014 to the end of HotS: 63.21%, PvZ: 61.48%.
I don't even know how you got any of those 3 numbers.
Those are his career win rate against P, Z, and T respectively.
You just went and did life time win rates but those don't matter because his win rates were different every year. In 2013 his PvZ was his best matchup and PvT the worst. In 2014 his PvT was his best and PvP the worst. In 2015 his PvT was the best and PvZ the worst.
Not to mention that those include LotV and WoL games that are completely irrelevant for 2015 Blizzcon. So yeah, by career win rate his PvP is his worst matchup, but not by the factual basis of games played in Heart of the Swarm in the year 2015.
Well, Olli didn't say it was life time or only 2015 either. Besides, adjusting and adapting new version of SC2 quickly is also an ability that a top-tier should have, there is no excuse about that.
You can infer he meant at the time because PartinG's worst matchup life time is PvZ.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck.
But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry.
These debates are getting more and more off-topic and pointless, stuchiu really has a talent for having his articles do that.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage.
I guess that's the excuse for zest to be kicked out at ro 16 at both of his blizzcon runs then.... E: why do you think fromage is not a strat? Like I said, it just shows how life excels in these short tournaments and sOs beating hims shows all the more how good he is.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck.
But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry.
maybe but Life's win against lilbow was impressive enough to make up for this.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
such a coincidence that so many players always derped against life.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck.
But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry.
maybe but Life's win against lilbow was impressive enough to make up for this.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage.
I guess that's the excuse for zest to be kicked out at ro 16 at both of his blizzcon runs then.... E: why do you think fromage is not a strat? Like I said, it just shows how life excels in these short tournaments and sOs beating hims shows all the more how good he is.
Nobody is trying to come up with excuses and nobody said cheese isn't a valid strat. Just that Life's play at Blizzcon didn't look solid at all and he still got to the finals.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
such a coincidence that so many players always derped against life.
Beating Life took a very specific skillset that a lot of players didn't have. But this is seriously getting off topic, so I'll drop that argument.
On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote: [quote] I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015
His peak level TvZ play looked so flashy that everyone got distracted from the fact that his TvP was always much better and his TvT was also quite weak.
On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote: [quote] I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck.
But he can bring up INnoVation's thor drop and make all his fans cry.
maybe but Life's win against lilbow was impressive enough to make up for this.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Life stumbled through the harder side of the bracket with luck and fromage.
I guess that's the excuse for zest to be kicked out at ro 16 at both of his blizzcon runs then.... E: why do you think fromage is not a strat? Like I said, it just shows how life excels in these short tournaments and sOs beating hims shows all the more how good he is.
Nobody is trying to come up with excuses and nobody said cheese isn't a valid strat. Just that Life's play at Blizzcon didn't look solid at all and he still got to the finals.
there are multiple paths to victory. Maybe his straight up macro games weren't up to par but who says cheese/allin isn't a legitimate strategy. If he advances to the finals his play was solid. maybe not his macro play but his cheeses/allins were definitely solid.
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015
His peak level TvZ play looked so flashy that everyone got distracted from the fact that his TvP was always much better and his TvT was also quite weak.
Although Rain claimed that he personally considers Dream a TvZ specialist at the SSL season 2 qualifiers. Do you think he improved suddenly in LotV?
On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote: I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in. 2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL. 3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3".
1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players.
If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"
"sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most"- yes indeed, most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players.
"All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period"-then why does he still have no GSL/SSL title?
"If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense"- your data can sure benefit your argument but they still trash and useless. who define the 60% winrate thing? just you or BLIZZARD official?
I don't agreed your theory because people value titles(especially Korean titles)much more than "winrate". titles means glory but winrate means nothing at the end.
the fact is: your "winrate is everything theory" sounds more like "personal feeling" ,and you with your own personal standards and data, believing it can compel all others to admit your beloved player is the greates/best one of all, that is the true "imagination".
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Lol with that kind of logic you can downtalk every tournament run. Zest beat a TaeJa way past his prime, barely won 2:1 against Journey (lol), advances from the 2nd groupstage vs two zergs who struggle in zvp in a protoss favored metagame, beat TaeJa again who stumbled to the quarterfinals through pure luck, beat Dear who played terrible on that day and finally teamkilled TY which doesn't say anything about skill because teamkills are always weird. not impressed
If you can find some arguments to support that then I'm all ears. But you probably can't.
As you can't find any arguments how Life stumbled to the blizzcon finals through pure luck and a 5 time GSL/SSL ro8 players isn't an absolute top player.
Of course I could. Life had Lilbow first round which was a free win given circumstances. He then had Innovation derp massively against him. Classic didn't do his homework concerning Life's map specific cheeses and was gambled out. And there you go.
As for Rogue, he never made more than a Ro8, where he frequently got eliminated by the very best.
Rogue is an interesting case tho, he beat top level players at the time such as dream and rain then derped out at ro8s
Dream had a 45% win rate in TvZ in 2015
His peak level TvZ play looked so flashy that everyone got distracted from the fact that his TvP was always much better and his TvT was also quite weak.
Although Rain claimed that he personally considers Dream a TvZ specialist at the SSL season 2 qualifiers. Do you think he improved suddenly in LotV?
Hard to say. It might be a difference between HotS and LotV that lets his talents shine more in TvZ now. It seems that TvZ is his best MU in LotV so far and he said more than once that he thinks it's almost impossible for Zerg to win against Terran.
Although we can also not rule out that it's just that Zerg is weak in Korea atm or has a hard time adapting to the things he does, and that subsequently his win rate will drop back to his HotS level as Zerg gets perpetually stronger (through either buffs or adaptation).
It is undeniable that he has played some of the most breathtaking TvZs of all time back in 2015 HotS, so I definitely wouldn't say he just suddenly improved, since the basics were already there.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
polt and hydra defined that. if they played in Korean region, maybe GSL?could they survive in Code A? I doubt, but the fact was they standed #7 and #11 in 2015 WCS standings, way ahead of your beloved SOS, why? oh because they faced few korean players. this game is just EZPZ when you don't have to face the korean top class players right? it made winning the championships look even easier!
On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote: I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in. 2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL. 3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3".
1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players.
If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"
"sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most"- yes indeed, most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players.
"All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period"-then why does he still have no GSL/SSL title?
"If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense"- your data can sure benefit your argument but they still trash and useless. who define the 60% winrate thing? just you or BLIZZARD official?
I don't agreed your theory because people value titles(especially Korean titles)much more than "winrate". titles means glory but winrate means nothing at the end.
the fact is: your "winrate is everything theory" sounds more like "personal feeling" ,and you with your own personal standards and data, believing it can compel all others to admit your beloved player is the greates/best one of all, that is the true "imagination".
"most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players". Is this a joke? Did you check his play history? Which his opponent was not Korean? How many non-Korean he had faced in WCS, IEM WC and other foreign tournaments? I heard Zest will have a WCS champion this year? Is Hot6 Cup champion a Korean title? Let's end this conversation right here since "every evaluation is subjective".
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
polt and hydra defined that. if they played in Korean region, maybe GSL?could they survive in Code A? I doubt, but the fact was they standed #7 and #11 in 2015 WCS standings, way ahead of your beloved SOS, why? oh because they faced few korean players. this game is just EZPZ when you don't have to face the korean top class players right? it made winning the championships look even easier!
Sure, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji are all "top class players", I knew that because they are all GSL champions.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
On May 29 2016 22:08 swissman777 wrote: [quote] I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue.
On May 29 2016 20:19 Olli wrote: I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.
Your criteria in general are really really odd.
For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?
But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:
1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in. 2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL. 3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.
And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
Oh, I forgot to mention, the championships they won must include either GSL, SSL or WCS Finals since they are "the big 3".
1) Preparation is good, but the ability to adjust quickly is also important. 2) In fact, offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships. For exaple, sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most. herO has the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships. Zest tied with the third highest overall win rate in the league, so he had six offline championships as well. 3) Again, they have played for four years with more than 500 or 600 offline games. All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period. As long as their opponents are Korean and they are playing offline games, it does not matter at what stage the game was going on. They all have faced a lot of "top-tier" players and "ordinary" players.
If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"
"sOs has the highest overall win rate in the league, so he had seven offline championships which is also the most"- yes indeed, most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players.
"All the errors can be neglected and there is no such a thing called "luck" during four years period"-then why does he still have no GSL/SSL title?
"If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense"- your data can sure benefit your argument but they still trash and useless. who define the 60% winrate thing? just you or BLIZZARD official?
I don't agreed your theory because people value titles(especially Korean titles)much more than "winrate". titles means glory but winrate means nothing at the end.
the fact is: your "winrate is everything theory" sounds more like "personal feeling" ,and you with your own personal standards and data, believing it can compel all others to admit your beloved player is the greates/best one of all, that is the true "imagination".
"most of the championships are not in korea, so he didn't have to face lots of korean players". Is this a joke? Did you check his play history? Which his opponent was not Korean? How many non-Korean he had faced in WCS, IEM WC and other foreign tournaments? I heard Zest will have a WCS champion this year? Is Hot6 Cup champion a Korean title? Let's end this conversation right here since "every evaluation is subjective".
oh as many korean players as GSL/SSL? and he had many chances to play abroad and that was great because that could gain the WCS point much easier! surely I know he won Hot6 Cup champion so I said "most of " not "all of", can't you read?
and speaking of the"subjective evaluation", don't you gonna share with us your "magical winrate 60% "story?
Also, sOs is one of the player who played fewest foreign tournaments, but the point is, when he plays foreign tournament, he usually win the championships.
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue.
funny. it's you said that "offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships" , according to this, he should won more korean titles than other players since he has the highest winrates .so why not? of course I konw he met korean players in WCS,IEM, DH and MSI final stage,but who he faced almost are the same people he did in korean region. so why ? what's wrong with your data?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue.
funny. it's you said that "offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships" , according to this, he should won more korean titles than other players since he has the highest winrates .so why not? of course I konw he met korean players in WCS,IEM, DH and MSI final stage,but who he faced almost are the same people he did in korean region. so why ? what's wrong with your data?
Did I say higher offline win rate relates to more "Korean" titles?
On May 30 2016 00:22 Alarak89 wrote: That's why I said "all evaluation are subjective", you can say whatever you want, so do I.
can I? your attitude is not so casual when this topic brought up.
"If you think I am using data that benefit my argument, you can use data that benefit your argument too and they better make sense But I want to see data, not your "imagination" and "personal feeling"- that's what you said. you poped out an magical winrate theory, and try to compel all others to believe in you, anyone disagreed should provide DATA which must make sense. or it would be pure "imagination" and "personal feeling", and suddenly "all evaluation are subjective" and everyone can have their own opinion finally??
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
Sorry, PvP was sOs' weakest matchup as well, relatively. If his PvP is like his PvT and PvZ, he would dominate this game from two years ago.
No, it wasn't.
Again, check the data, no "imagination" please
I'm gonna end this conversation now. Every evaluation is subjective. So we'll just have to leave it at that. Your criteria are incomplete and really silly, as just demonstrated with lifetime winrate vs winrate in a certain time frame.
And on top of that, here's my entirely subjective final thought: I probably know more about protoss than you do, which is why I'm quite confident in my estimations and raw numbers, however twisted and distorted, won't change that.
As you said, If "every evaluation is subjective", then this entire "silly" conversation can be ended.
why? I thought it's just begun. and I want to ask a question. since SOS winrate is #1 against korean players, then why he only earn a korean title so far? and most of his championships are from abroad, not in korean region, so does it mean his amazing korean winrate and the abroad championships are irrelevant ? OMG, that's totally opposite from what you insisted.
As long as he won against Korean players, does the location of the stage matter? "Foreign tournaments" mean less Koreans? Check how many Korean players were in WCS, IEM, DH and MSI final stage, do some research before you start to argue.
funny. it's you said that "offline win rates has a very strong positive relation with winning offline championships" , according to this, he should won more korean titles than other players since he has the highest winrates .so why not? of course I konw he met korean players in WCS,IEM, DH and MSI final stage,but who he faced almost are the same people he did in korean region. so why ? what's wrong with your data?
Did I say higher offline win rate relates to more "Korean" titles?
the data you provide was "vs korean players", so if they doesn't relate to more korean titles, then what they mean? the 60% is magical in what way?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? So GSL is harder only because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust and adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
polt and hydra defined that. if they played in Korean region, maybe GSL?could they survive in Code A? I doubt, but the fact was they standed #7 and #11 in 2015 WCS standings, way ahead of your beloved SOS, why? oh because they faced few korean players. this game is just EZPZ when you don't have to face the korean top class players right? it made winning the championships look even easier!
Sure, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji are all "top class players", I knew that because they are all GSL champions.
GSL champion title was so overrated, no wonder your beloved player disdained to get one
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
I've seen arguing over articles without reading them.
I think I made the statement a little more concise.
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
I never understood why someome should be bothered by people arguing about a topic the article brings up? It's a good sign imo and if you are open minded you possibly even get something out of it for future articles
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do.
Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it.
So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do.
Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it.
So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list. That's not necessarily the fault of anyone in this case (even though you obviously should read it to get a better understanding of the criteria used, etc) But yeah Nathanias () talking down on that espn article was rather stupid considering it was clear he didn't even read it. His explanation after the fact didn't seem to make any sense either.
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do.
Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it.
So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list.
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote: MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
How can you say, MC did nothing for the past two years? You did not hear his singing "Let it go"? You see? I am sure, if Zest was singing, it would have never been that great! So if you want to count someone as "Titan", you should first check his singing!
On May 30 2016 01:39 thecrazymunchkin wrote:
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list. And this is what we all hate
But we discussed also Zest's body and acknowledged, it is OK. So nobody is arguing about Zest's body.
On May 28 2016 02:35 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Yet what makes Zest so amazing in the current climate of SC2 is that he is the last surviving titan of SC2. Mvp is retired. Life has been convicted of match fixing. Taeja is counting the days till retirement. MC has come out of retirement and hasn’t been at his peak for years. Polt’s best days are behind him. MMA, Rain, NesTea, and MarineKing are all retired. Leenock, soO and INnoVation have all fallen from their primes.
Does anyone else not think that stuchiu is just like swag_bro (a former TL Titan), except with better English and careful avoidance of clichés (e.g. 'slump')?
On May 28 2016 02:35 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Yet what makes Zest so amazing in the current climate of SC2 is that he is the last surviving titan of SC2. Mvp is retired. Life has been convicted of match fixing. Taeja is counting the days till retirement. MC has come out of retirement and hasn’t been at his peak for years. Polt’s best days are behind him. MMA, Rain, NesTea, and MarineKing are all retired. Leenock, soO and INnoVation have all fallen from their primes.
Does anyone else not think that stuchiu is just like swag_bro (a former TL Titan), except with better English and careful avoidance of clichés (e.g. 'slump')?
Damned, I am becoming so frustrated not to know swag_bro!!! Could not someone write some tribute to Swag_bro, so that we, the newbies, can learn something about him?
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote: MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.
How can you say, MC did nothing for the past two years? You did not hear his singing "Let it go"? You see? I am sure, if Zest was singing, it would have never been that great! So if you want to count someone as "Titan", you should first check his singing!
On May 28 2016 02:35 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Yet what makes Zest so amazing in the current climate of SC2 is that he is the last surviving titan of SC2. Mvp is retired. Life has been convicted of match fixing. Taeja is counting the days till retirement. MC has come out of retirement and hasn’t been at his peak for years. Polt’s best days are behind him. MMA, Rain, NesTea, and MarineKing are all retired. Leenock, soO and INnoVation have all fallen from their primes.
Does anyone else not think that stuchiu is just like swag_bro (a former TL Titan), except with better English and careful avoidance of clichés (e.g. 'slump')?
Damned, I am becoming so frustrated not to know swag_bro!!! Could not someone write some tribute to Swag_bro, so that we, the newbies, can learn something about him?
On May 28 2016 02:35 TeamLiquid ESPORTS wrote: Yet what makes Zest so amazing in the current climate of SC2 is that he is the last surviving titan of SC2. Mvp is retired. Life has been convicted of match fixing. Taeja is counting the days till retirement. MC has come out of retirement and hasn’t been at his peak for years. Polt’s best days are behind him. MMA, Rain, NesTea, and MarineKing are all retired. Leenock, soO and INnoVation have all fallen from their primes.
Does anyone else not think that stuchiu is just like swag_bro (a former TL Titan), except with better English and careful avoidance of clichés (e.g. 'slump')?
Damned, I am becoming so frustrated not to know swag_bro!!! Could not someone write some tribute to Swag_bro, so that we, the newbies, can learn something about him?
All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
If you're not that familiar with Swag_bro, you live in a better world than the rest of us. Not a supremely better world, but I always enjoyed his posting.
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
Was banned because Nazi mods hate fun. Some people think you are actually his alt, some people think that we all are, in a sense, his alts.
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
Was banned because Nazi mods hate fun. Some people think you are actually his alt, some people think that we all are, in a sense, his alts.
Wait wait wait wait!!!! Translate!!! You are using too many words, I am not familiar with ... - Nazi - Mods - Alt But maybe, after some time, I will understand. If you are banned within the next 5 minutes, I think, I will understand the first two words ;-) Well, somehow, I also probably get the meaning of the last word. I am definitely not an alt of anybody else! I even did not understand what is double posting and was banned for it!!!
Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
Was banned because Nazi mods hate fun. Some people think you are actually his alt, some people think that we all are, in a sense, his alts.
Wait, why is diabolique his alt? And why is diabolique keep on saying that he's new to this when he has so many TL posts written next to his ID? Am I missing sth? E: Holy moly, dia is quite new. Man he/she was making a lot of posts everyday... when does ur passion fade?
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
Just look at the LR for hot6ix cup of 2014 and I think you'll be what we mean
On May 30 2016 04:10 Diabolique wrote: Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
On May 30 2016 04:10 Diabolique wrote: Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
On May 30 2016 04:10 Diabolique wrote: Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
Just look at the LR for hot6ix cup of 2014 and I think you'll be what we mean
Seriously? LR for hot6ix cup of 2014 includes naked pictures of Zest? Well, not sure, I want to see them ...
On May 30 2016 04:10 Diabolique wrote: Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
On May 30 2016 02:50 NinjaToss wrote: ehrm, can I just disagree with you one bit? What kind of standard do you have to think of Zest's body as only an "OK"
Well, I did not see him naked in the booth ... sorry ... maybe there are some Zest's naked pictures in the internet, but I never had the interest and never searched for them ... or did they sometimes play a naked championship?
On May 30 2016 03:01 swissman777 wrote: All I remember of him is that he got really salty and was really quick to give radical conclusions of players' decision making and form
Thanks, finally some info. So where is he? Why is he not contributing something to the discussion? Might be an interesting character. Maybe, we all could learn something from him ...
Just look at the LR for hot6ix cup of 2014 and I think you'll be what we mean
Seriously? LR for hot6ix cup of 2014 includes naked pictures of Zest? Well, not sure, I want to see them ...
On May 30 2016 04:10 Diabolique wrote: Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
So again, who is more "stable" and "healthier"?
Awful PvT...laughable PvZ...patchtoss PVP
What's that spell?
Z-E-S-T
Is that you, He who shall not be named?
No, that is just some newbie. He has only one post.
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
So again, who is more "stable" and "healthier"?
Awful PvT...laughable PvZ...patchtoss PVP
What's that spell?
Z-E-S-T
Is that you, He who shall not be named?
No, that is just some newbie. He has only one post.
I mean, the original account was banned wasn't it? So maybe he made a new one for the occasion
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
So again, who is more "stable" and "healthier"?
Awful PvT...laughable PvZ...patchtoss PVP
What's that spell?
Z-E-S-T
Is that you, He who shall not be named?
No, that is just some newbie. He has only one post.
I mean, the original account was banned wasn't it? So maybe he made a new one for the occasion
The original. And a new one. And another new one. And another one. And then over a year later this one.
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
So again, who is more "stable" and "healthier"?
Awful PvT...laughable PvZ...patchtoss PVP
What's that spell?
Z-E-S-T
Is that you, He who shall not be named?
No, that is just some newbie. He has only one post.
I mean, the original account was banned wasn't it? So maybe he made a new one for the occasion
Wait, that is allowed? Why did they ban him if he is allowed to create a new account? ;-P
On May 29 2016 11:17 Alarak89 wrote: PvT win rates: 1. sos 65.32% (in games) bo3+ 75.00% (in matches) bo5+ 90.91% (in matches)
2. rain 64.73% (in games) bo3+ 70.49% (in matches) bo5+ 57.89% (in matches)
3. parting 64.58% (in games) bo3+ 72.73% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
4. hero 63.47% (in games) bo3+ 67.80% (in matches) bo5+ 73.33% (in matches)
5. dear 61.69% (in games) bo3+ 71.11% (in matches) bo5+ 87.50% (in matches)
6. classic 61.29% (in games) bo3+ 61.29% (in matches) bo5+ 62.50% (in matches)
7. stats 57.38% (in games) bo3+ 55.17% (in matches) bo5+ 60.00% (in matches) 8. zest 57.06% (in games) bo3+ 57.45% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
PvZ win rates: 1. hero 65.13% (in games) bo3+ 78.43% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
2. dear 64.90% (in games) bo3+ 77.50% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
3. sos 64.06% (in games) bo3+ 66.10% (in matches) bo5+ 61.64% (in matches)
4. rain 63.13% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 70.00% (in matches)
5. classic 62.18% (in games) bo3+ 66.67% (in matches) bo5+ 75.00% (in matches)
6. zest 57.40% (in games) bo3+ 54.76% (in matches) bo5+ 55.56% (in matches)
7. stats 56.20% (in games) bo3+ 51.53% (in matches) bo5+ 42.86% (in matches)
8. parting 55.52% (in games) bo3+ 57.47% (in matches) bo5+ 29.63% (in matches)
PvP win rates: 1. zest 67.02% (in games) bo3+ 85.71% (in matches) bo5+ 80.00% (in matches)
2. stats 65.33% (in games) bo3+ 80.56% (in matches) bo5+ 85.71% (in matches)
3. sos 62.07% (in games) bo3+ 69.81% (in matches) bo5+ 64.29% (in matches)
4. classic 58.51% (in games) bo3+ 61.54% (in matches) bo5+ 69.23% (in matches)
5. parting 57.20% (in games) bo3+ 58.21% (in matches) bo5+ 66.67% (in matches)
6. rain 56.06% (in games) bo3+ 60.87% (in matches) bo5+ 38.46% (in matches)
7. dear 55.75% (in games) bo3+ 54.55% (in matches) bo5+ 53.85% (in matches)
8. hero 55.47% (in games) bo3+ 55.93% (in matches) bo5+ 50.00% (in matches)
So again, who is more "stable" and "healthier"?
Awful PvT...laughable PvZ...patchtoss PVP
What's that spell?
Z-E-S-T
Is that you, He who shall not be named?
No, that is just some newbie. He has only one post.
I mean, the original account was banned wasn't it? So maybe he made a new one for the occasion
Wait, that is allowed? Why did they ban him if he is allowed to create a new account? ;-P
I'm rooting hard for Maru and cheering hard because he has what it takes to become GOAT. He's super young, sure. He hasn't been the rising star like Life was, he hasn't been the bulldozer that Zest is.
He is however, incredibly consistent, perhaps one the most consistent progamers out there and he is also one of the scariest players out there when playing at peak level!
On May 30 2016 07:29 Incognoto wrote: Just in case some people didn't get it.
I'm not considering Maru GOAT.
I'm rooting hard for Maru and cheering hard because he has what it takes to become GOAT. He's super young, sure. He hasn't been the rising star like Life was, he hasn't been the bulldozer that Zest is.
He is however, incredibly consistent, perhaps one the most consistent progamers out there and he is also one of the scariest players out there when playing at peak level!
Actually, when I think about it, Maru is probably the best player in the world at the moment. Do you remember the latest race rankings? For balance purposes, Korea believes, the strongest from all races on the top level are Terrans. Well, there is only one terran on the top and it is not TY. So if they say, Terrans are the strongest, they have one reason why to say that. The reason is him.
EDIT: And by the way, his mule drops against Zest were the sexiest thing, I have seen in SC2 in a long time :-) If I was his opponent and had an army lead 200 vs. 50 and he was attacking with the last few marines, in the moment when he would drop his mules in my base, I would get a heart attack :-)
On May 30 2016 04:10 Diabolique wrote: Maybe, we could create some objective universal ranking, so that we don't need to fight about the individual categories and everybody can find there his/her own category. I will start:
No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne. Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor. Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches.
On May 30 2016 07:29 Incognoto wrote: Just in case some people didn't get it.
I'm not considering Maru GOAT.
I'm rooting hard for Maru and cheering hard because he has what it takes to become GOAT. He's super young, sure. He hasn't been the rising star like Life was, he hasn't been the bulldozer that Zest is.
He is however, incredibly consistent, perhaps one the most consistent progamers out there and he is also one of the scariest players out there when playing at peak level!
Actually, when I think about it, Maru is probably the best player in the world at the moment. Do you remember the latest race rankings? For balance purposes, Korea believes, the strongest from all races on the top level are Terrans. Well, there is only one terran on the top and it is not TY. So if they say, Terrans are the strongest, they have one reason why to say that. The reason is him.
On May 30 2016 07:29 Incognoto wrote: Just in case some people didn't get it.
I'm not considering Maru GOAT.
I'm rooting hard for Maru and cheering hard because he has what it takes to become GOAT. He's super young, sure. He hasn't been the rising star like Life was, he hasn't been the bulldozer that Zest is.
He is however, incredibly consistent, perhaps one the most consistent progamers out there and he is also one of the scariest players out there when playing at peak level!
Actually, when I think about it, Maru is probably the best player in the world at the moment. Do you remember the latest race rankings? For balance purposes, Korea believes, the strongest from all races on the top level are Terrans. Well, there is only one terran on the top and it is not TY. So if they say, Terrans are the strongest, they have one reason why to say that. The reason is him.
On May 30 2016 09:11 Veluvian wrote: No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne. Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor. Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches.
NesTea won 2 GSL's back to back IIRC, including one perfect run, and had good finishes in all the GSL's between his first and second wins.
MVP was a weird case. He always managed to be the underdog despite being one of the winningest players of all time. When he lost, it was an unsurprising letdown, and usually even when he won (especially in the latter half of his career) it felt like it was by the skin of his teeth. The few times where he really dominated in finals (vs MKP and TOP are the only ones that come to mind) it felt more like his opponent choking than MVP just being that exceptional.
edit: Maybe I haven't been following the scene closely enough lately but I never really got the impression Zest was on an entirely different level. He first emerged on the back of PvP when Protoss was clearly the strongest race, then largely fell off when Protoss was weakened and the other races become relevant again. He seems to be doing really well right now for sure and has consistently been a top player, but I never saw him as a "Titan".
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
Guys, I am not sure, but ... are you serious? Now I am not sure :-)
I was quite joking in this thread when I mentioned Zest losing etc... but I acknowledge that Zest is one of the best players in the world in the moment. Before the nerf, he certainly was, so we will see soon if his PvZ did not get worse. But he is the no. 1 or no. 2 in the world, all jokes aside. sOs is far behind him in the moment and I hope, he will get over Zest again once.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
On May 30 2016 09:11 Veluvian wrote: No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne. Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor. Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches.
NesTea won 2 GSL's back to back IIRC, including one perfect run, and had good finishes in all the GSL's between his first and second wins.
MVP was a weird case. He always managed to be the underdog despite being one of the winningest players of all time. When he lost, it was an unsurprising letdown, and usually even when he won (especially in the latter half of his career) it felt like it was by the skin of his teeth. The few times where he really dominated in finals (vs MKP and TOP are the only ones that come to mind) it felt more like his opponent choking than MVP just being that exceptional.
this is not close to being true, mvp was favored vs mma in gsl October, and his loss to leenock in both November and at the end of the year were big disappointments. Mvp was the most dominant player and was expected to win pretty much everything except for the hiccup where be dropped to code a
On May 30 2016 09:11 Veluvian wrote: No need to fall in hysteria. Zest is best as often people say, but this doesn't work any time. There's no best player for all time, in general or a best race player. There are top players who reach their ultimate form for a periods of time and they dominated upon their races and all the rest in the world. Then another titan comes to the throne. Players like Innovation, Rain, sOs, Zest - rise, fall and then they rise again. Rain was actually one of the least players, who always kept some impressive form until he won his GSL and lost some concentration and then retired due to personal reasons. It is really difficult and unfair to name some random pro- as the best in the history of SC e-sports. Life is another example for ultimate shape and periods of which he performed so poor. Zest is a monster one more time. But is it possible to keep this top world level? Nobody won 2 GSL's in a row. Even Classic and Mvp used to won GSL titles and on the next Round of 32 they lost matches.
NesTea won 2 GSL's back to back IIRC, including one perfect run, and had good finishes in all the GSL's between his first and second wins.
MVP was a weird case. He always managed to be the underdog despite being one of the winningest players of all time. When he lost, it was an unsurprising letdown, and usually even when he won (especially in the latter half of his career) it felt like it was by the skin of his teeth. The few times where he really dominated in finals (vs MKP and TOP are the only ones that come to mind) it felt more like his opponent choking than MVP just being that exceptional.
this is not close to being true, mvp was favored vs mma in gsl October, and his loss to leenock in both November and at the end of the year were big disappointments. Mvp was the most dominant player and was expected to win pretty much everything except for the hiccup where be dropped to code a
IDK, I didn't follow SC2 closely in early 2011 so maybe I just missed the period where he was really dominant, but by mid-late 2011 and through the rest of his relevant career he always felt like a bit of an underdog. He wasn't somebody you could count out entirely, but at the same there were always a few players with better mechanics, powerful / revolutionary new strategies and a massive hype train behind them.
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
Careful there, young Padawan. You're treading close to the Swag Side. Once you start down the swag path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress
Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress
Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important
No. No. And No. He is not a few inches behind Maru. Didn't you read the capital letters???!!!! :-)
When TY was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players of top teams (without any team bias), he always lost. When Maru was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players, he often won. More than often. Mostly. When TY loses to EVERY of the TOP players, he is not a TOP player. Even sOs, whom I would not in the moment count among the absolutely TOP players, has a better score.
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress
Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important
No. No. And No. He is not a few inches behind Maru. Didn't you read the capital letters???!!!! :-)
When TY was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players of top teams (without any team bias), he always lost. When Maru was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players, he often won. More than often. Mostly. When TY loses to EVERY of the TOP players, he is not a TOP player. Even sOs, whom I would not in the moment count among the absolutely TOP players, has a better score.
Damn, I should have used the threat reducing utility, I knew it!
I think this is the place for me to write - I don't agree and that's it
On May 30 2016 12:28 BLinD-RawR wrote: I'd like a real argument for his case though.
But TY? TY IS a LOSER!
I mean ... of course he is a good player ... I would mark him somewhere around the 10th place in the world ... together with Rogue ... I am not sure, if Rogue is higher or TY is higher. But in comparison with the real top players like Zest or Maru, he is just a loser, who loses to all the top players and regularly to mediocre players. So I hope, you were just joking with this question :-)
you used a lot of words to say nothing, please try again.
Well, if you don't understand English, I am not sure, how should I explain it to you, so that you could understand it (and I wouldn't be banned). Maybe, I could try it in capitals:
A PLAYER, WHO ALWAYS LOSES TO EVERY TOP PLAYER (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, sOs, - one map exception with Dear) AND REGULARLY LOSES TO NORMAL PLAYERS (Trap, ByuL, Jieshi, Snute, iAsonu, Bunny), IS NOT A TOP PLAYER.
If you seriously wanted to compare him with Maru, you must have fallen down from a tree.
BLinD-RawR uses a taunt. He gains a huge amount of threat. His usage was perfect and Diabolique is now attacking only him. The whole raid can now continue with progress
Considering only LOTV TY is probably the 2nd best Terran right now and only few inches behind Maru with a better start. The question is what happens in the next seasons of this show, in the first season he was pretty important
No. No. And No. He is not a few inches behind Maru. Didn't you read the capital letters???!!!! :-)
When TY was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players of top teams (without any team bias), he always lost. When Maru was playing against any of the generally acknowledged ace players, he often won. More than often. Mostly. When TY loses to EVERY of the TOP players, he is not a TOP player. Even sOs, whom I would not in the moment count among the absolutely TOP players, has a better score.
Damn, I should have used the threat reducing utility, I knew it!
I think this is the place for me to write - I don't agree and that's it
HOW can you not agree??? You don't follow SC2??? :-P
Score against those TOP players (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, Classic, Dear, sOs) since 1/1/2016: Zest 8:4 Maru 6:3 Stats 6:6 Dark 3:4 herO 3:4 sOs 3:7 TY 1:10
its actually still possible to lose to every top player in proleague and still be considered a top player(life), plus I don't know about you but he did make it to the GSL finals even if his luck of opponents was great.
also, this isn't as important but maybe tone down the insults, how can I take you seriously when you're screaming out and berating TY for being a loser?
On May 30 2016 20:13 BLinD-RawR wrote: its actually still possible to lose to every top player in proleague and still be considered a top player(life), plus I don't know about you but he did make it to the GSL finals even if his luck of opponents was great.
also, this isn't as important but maybe tone down the insults, how can I take you seriously when you're screaming out and berating TY for being a loser?
Sorry for the insult, but I did not understand, how don't you see his results:
Score against those TOP players (Zest, Maru, Dark, herO, Stats, soO, Classic, Dear, sOs) since 1/1/2016: Zest 8:4 Maru 6:3 Stats 6:6 Dark 3:4 herO 3:4 sOs 3:7 TY 1:10
Of course, whenever was TY playing against a normal average, or a normal good player, he was often winning. Whenever he played against a really good player, he lost. It is so obvious ...
EDIT: and you know, I really like TY, he brought me the most points to my FPL team in season 1. But then, I watched him and he was losing, losing and losing ... even in China in the Koreans vs Foreigners event. He was often losing to mediocre players and ALWAYS(-1) against top players. And I would agree, he is Terran no. 2 in the world. But this no. 2 is way down below the top players ... he could be something like the number 10 in the world now ...
I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
I dunno, but that's the point, people from both sides are acting like fanboys now. We should all restart this discussion after a short break.
As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
As a sOs fan, I must say, Zest has been clearly better than sOs in LotV so far.
But he was always perfect in his play, while sOs was coming with creative and surprising solutions. And I hope, sOs will get into the game again and then, he will be able to beat Zest when it matters (= when $$$ are in play! :-))
In the moment, from Protosses, I would probably estimate the current ranking as: 1. Zest 2. Stats 3. herO 4. Classic 5. sOs 6. Dear
But if sOs shows some good performance in the initial phases of GSL/SSL, he could quickly ascend to the second place ... But nobody will replace Zest on the first place in LotV for a long time ...
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
are you seriously?? have you ever READed your jin air fan comrades comments ??
"zest doesnt deserve the Titan title for his poor winrate" "TY is a loser" "zest is the most overrated"
and suddenly it becomes "KT player's dismissal on sOs"？？
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
I dunno, but that's the point, people from both sides are acting like fanboys now. We should all restart this discussion after a short break.
you dont know again? you can judge a player without knowing his performance in a whole year, and claimed KT player's dismissal on sOs .
all your comments was base on pure ""imagination" and "personal feelings".
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
I dunno, but that's the point, people from both sides are acting like fanboys now. We should all restart this discussion after a short break.
you dont know again? you can judge a player without knowing his performance in a whole year, and claimed KT player's dismissal on sOs .
all your comments was base on pure ""imagination" and "personal feelings".
tell me, who act more like a fanboy?
Well, please tell me first how many times I said "I don't know" and then we'll discuss.
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
I'm sure you didnt read the comment page did you? everything was going fine at the begin until a master of data, Dr. winrate 60% who came out from nowhere, with the "newbie" keep denying and dissing zest, things started get "emotional".
and why would you appreciate zest' poweress? he is just a "most overrated player", his performing cant last for a whole year, just let him rot in the SC2 .
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
I'm sure you didnt read the comment page did you? everything was going fine at the begin until a master of data, Dr. winrate 60% who came out from nowhere, with the "newbie" keep denying and dissing zest, things started get "emotional".
and why would you appreciate zest' poweress? he is just a "most overrated player", his performing cant last for a whole year, just let him rot in the SC2 .
Dude you're not really helping the situation here.
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
I dunno, but that's the point, people from both sides are acting like fanboys now. We should all restart this discussion after a short break.
you dont know again? you can judge a player without knowing his performance in a whole year, and claimed KT player's dismissal on sOs .
all your comments was base on pure ""imagination" and "personal feelings".
tell me, who act more like a fanboy?
Well, please tell me first how many times I said "I don't know" and then we'll discuss.
first time you said you "break" from SC2, and not knowing zest' perform in the whole 2014,
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
I'm sure you didnt read the comment page did you? everything was going fine at the begin until a master of data, Dr. winrate 60% who came out from nowhere, with the "newbie" keep denying and dissing zest, things started get "emotional".
and why would you appreciate zest' poweress? he is just a "most overrated player", his performing cant last for a whole year, just let him rot in the SC2 .
Dude you're not really helping the situation here.
why dont you say this to your fan comrades who keep on jumping up and down here? they started it afterall
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
I dunno, but that's the point, people from both sides are acting like fanboys now. We should all restart this discussion after a short break.
you dont know again? you can judge a player without knowing his performance in a whole year, and claimed KT player's dismissal on sOs .
all your comments was base on pure ""imagination" and "personal feelings".
tell me, who act more like a fanboy?
Well, please tell me first how many times I said "I don't know" and then we'll discuss.
first time you said you "break" from SC2, and not knowing zest' perform in the whole 2014,
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
I'm sure you didnt read the comment page did you? everything was going fine at the begin until a master of data, Dr. winrate 60% who came out from nowhere, with the "newbie" keep denying and dissing zest, things started get "emotional".
and why would you appreciate zest' poweress? he is just a "most overrated player", his performing cant last for a whole year, just let him rot in the SC2 .
Dude you're not really helping the situation here.
why dont you say this to your fan comrades who keep on jumping up and down here? they started it afterall
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
are you seriously?? have you ever READed your jin air fan comrades comments ??
"zest doesnt deserve the Titan title for his poor winrate" "TY is a loser" "zest is the most overrated"
and suddenly it becomes "KT player's dismissal on sOs"？？
"TY is a loser" is not his quote, that is MY quote! And I said it only in relation when I mentioned that the Korean pros believe, that the strongest race on the top level are Terrans. But there is only one Terran, who shines and is beating all the other TOP players and it is not TY. And I got a reaction "And who else than TY?" ... so in this relation, among the TOP players, TY is really a loser. You can't take quotes out of the context.
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
Were WE being dismissal? You guys were the one who started this whole $O$ is best thing and keep on saying how Zest is not GOAT because sOs won 2 BlizzCon and dismiss Zest's achievement in 2014, where he won 3 TITLES in ONE year, and his resurrection and his absolute dominant performant this year
I dunno, but that's the point, people from both sides are acting like fanboys now. We should all restart this discussion after a short break.
you dont know again? you can judge a player without knowing his performance in a whole year, and claimed KT player's dismissal on sOs .
all your comments was base on pure ""imagination" and "personal feelings".
tell me, who act more like a fanboy?
Well, please tell me first how many times I said "I don't know" and then we'll discuss.
first time you said you "break" from SC2, and not knowing zest' perform in the whole 2014,
On May 31 2016 05:19 swissman777 wrote: As a sOs fan, I'm sorry to Zest fans who's having troubles on the comment page of a post made for zest. I think we all started getting a bit emotional and all the arguing got worse. How about leaving this discussion for now and appreciate zest's prowess in sc2?
I'm sure you didnt read the comment page did you? everything was going fine at the begin until a master of data, Dr. winrate 60% who came out from nowhere, with the "newbie" keep denying and dissing zest, things started get "emotional".
and why would you appreciate zest' poweress? he is just a "most overrated player", his performing cant last for a whole year, just let him rot in the SC2 .
Dude you're not really helping the situation here.
why dont you say this to your fan comrades who keep on jumping up and down here? they started it afterall
Do you want to keep on going then?
maybe i'm confused because your tones are so familiar . it's you JAGW fans keep on going , not me.
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
are you seriously?? have you ever READed your jin air fan comrades comments ??
"zest doesnt deserve the Titan title for his poor winrate" "TY is a loser" "zest is the most overrated"
and suddenly it becomes "KT player's dismissal on sOs"？？
"TY is a loser" is not his quote, that is MY quote! And I said it only in relation when I mentioned that the Korean pros believe, that the strongest race on the top level are Terrans. But there is only one Terran, who shines and is beating all the other TOP players and it is not TY. And I got a reaction "And who else than TY?" ... so in this relation, among the TOP players, TY is really a loser. You can't take quotes out of the context.
does it make any difference since the JAGW fans here share the same points anyway? 2 times GSL champion is the most overrated player, 1 time GSL runner-up is a REAL loser. KT sucks! that's all
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do.
Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it.
So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list. That's not necessarily the fault of anyone in this case (even though you obviously should read it to get a better understanding of the criteria used, etc) But yeah Nathanias () talking down on that espn article was rather stupid considering it was clear he didn't even read it. His explanation after the fact didn't seem to make any sense either.
The way the article I criticized was very poorly laid out and that was my problem with it. You state one problem, one cause, then talk about the problem and only at the end say "Well the system change probably didn't make flash retire but whatever" after the reader has already formed an opinion.
On May 30 2016 00:53 opisska wrote: Some people may dislike the heated discussion such posts bring up, but to me, it's a great sign that the passion is still burning.
The real writers' curse. Your work either gets ignored or people start arguing over it.
Or both at the same time judging from all the people I've seen arguing over stuchiu's articles without reading them.
You can read the articles but disagree with the criteria he uses to come to these conclusions
Or you can just look at the numbers of any of his GOAT rankings and start calling him an idiot right away. It's what a lot of people do.
Hell, I remember that time where stuchiu made an article about the lack of new blood in the Korean scene and the new WCS system. A "community figure" called it shit and later admitted to never reading it.
So clearly you can ignore the work and still argue about it
Well with these rankings it's pretty easy to ignore the body of work (the text) and simply argue about the list. That's not necessarily the fault of anyone in this case (even though you obviously should read it to get a better understanding of the criteria used, etc) But yeah Nathanias () talking down on that espn article was rather stupid considering it was clear he didn't even read it. His explanation after the fact didn't seem to make any sense either.
The way the article I criticized was very poorly laid out and that was my problem with it. You state one problem, one cause, then talk about the problem and only at the end say "Well the system change probably didn't make flash retire but whatever" after the reader has already formed an opinion.
You called Stuchiu an ass and said the article was shit, then admitted you didn't even read it. Then when you were called out you deleted some tweets and changed your reason for disliking it. That criticism is valid but you didn't initially hate on it for that reason.
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
are you seriously?? have you ever READed your jin air fan comrades comments ??
"zest doesnt deserve the Titan title for his poor winrate" "TY is a loser" "zest is the most overrated"
and suddenly it becomes "KT player's dismissal on sOs"？？
"TY is a loser" is not his quote, that is MY quote! And I said it only in relation when I mentioned that the Korean pros believe, that the strongest race on the top level are Terrans. But there is only one Terran, who shines and is beating all the other TOP players and it is not TY. And I got a reaction "And who else than TY?" ... so in this relation, among the TOP players, TY is really a loser. You can't take quotes out of the context.
does it make any difference since the JAGW fans here share the same points anyway? 2 times GSL champion is the most overrated player, 1 time GSL runner-up is a REAL loser. KT sucks! that's all
No, we don't share the same points. For me, yes, winning GSL a few times is more worth than anything else. sOs is a master in creativity, mind games and with the right mindset, he is able to beat any opponent in a large tournament through his unexpected versatility. But now, for sure, Zest is much better.
On the other hand, TY is a great player, who on the whole way through GSL was quite lucky, because he did not face a single player from the top ones. His score in 2016 with the currently top players is 1:10. Therefore, he does not belong among the top 5-8 players and can be in no case compared with Maru in 2016 (the same score 6:3, even with his losses in GSL and SSL).
KT do not suck and actually I believe, they are stronger than we are. Just, we are able to surprise, both sOs and Rogue are able to win against anyone (and also lose to anyone), while Maru can beat anyone except Zest almost effortlessly. We are quite lucky and quite happy, we won :-)
In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
On May 31 2016 16:17 opisska wrote: So this year, we really, really need the finals to be JA-KT apparently.
Better not. SKT is sponsoring the whole Proleague, so they deserve a place in the final. I fear, whether they would sponsor it next year, if their own team did not make it to the final ...
On May 31 2016 16:17 opisska wrote: So this year, we really, really need the finals to be JA-KT apparently.
Better not. SKT is sponsoring the whole Proleague, so they deserve a place in the final. I fear, whether they would sponsor it next year, if their own team did not make it to the final ...
I don't think they are that petty.
Think about it how it would make sense. Last year, SKT was dominating individual leagues left and right, this year it's KT. Last year, TL was full of SKT hate from JA fans long before the finals were clear, this year the target is KT. The right progression for the playoffs would be some "Cinderella story team" getting crushed by SKT, then SKT-KT and KT-JA finals.
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
Consistent hero? What? Rain was one of the most stable macro P, Parting was one of the best players for the longest period(though his inability to get over RO8 in GSL was pretty painful). Yes, Zest had his slumping stage, but Mvp had his slump stages too(that's why he was an underdog in many tournaments he won), not mentioning Taeja who is named after Summer just because he can switch to god mode only with enough sunshine(why isn't he living in a desert? ).
C'mon, there is plenty of consistent Protoss players. I am still awed how people tend to mention only things they like (well, not really :D)
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
The article claims Zest is "the last Titan", which is completely not related to his team and teammates. It's all about "individual achievements", same for sOs. Why people start to argue JA vs KT? So KT is "the last Titan" now?
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
are you seriously?? have you ever READed your jin air fan comrades comments ??
"zest doesnt deserve the Titan title for his poor winrate" "TY is a loser" "zest is the most overrated"
and suddenly it becomes "KT player's dismissal on sOs"？？
"TY is a loser" is not his quote, that is MY quote! And I said it only in relation when I mentioned that the Korean pros believe, that the strongest race on the top level are Terrans. But there is only one Terran, who shines and is beating all the other TOP players and it is not TY. And I got a reaction "And who else than TY?" ... so in this relation, among the TOP players, TY is really a loser. You can't take quotes out of the context.
does it make any difference since the JAGW fans here share the same points anyway? 2 times GSL champion is the most overrated player, 1 time GSL runner-up is a REAL loser. KT sucks! that's all
Dude, I think you should calm down, stop picking fight. JinAir fans already admit Zest is the best player right now, that's enough. That was the point of this whole great debate
On May 31 2016 20:30 Alarak89 wrote: The article claims Zest is "the last Titan", which is completely not related to his team and teammates. It's all about "individual achievements", same for sOs. Why people start to argue JA vs KT? So KT is "the last Titan" now?
First, let's get my point across, you're hella annoying and you're the one who started this whole great debate thing
Second, look at all of those who decided to dismiss Zest's achievement and bash him ain a thread about him, do you know what's the similarity?
They are mostly JinAir fan, or blind sOs fan, which I also consider as JA's fan. Then you guys start to bring the topic to sOs and Maru, and bash TY. Is that not JA's fan bashing KT?
Guys they're both great Which is why it's so silly to say Zest is the last titan. sOs have a whoppin' $435,153 in esports earning, which is way up there for Starcraft. He's performed all kills, reverse all kills, if sOs is playing in any finals of a tournament, I'm gonna bet on him regardless of who the opponent is.
On May 31 2016 21:05 NinjaToss wrote:Then you guys start to bring the topic to sOs and Maru, and bash TY. Is that not JA's fan bashing KT?
That was the general discussion about the best player, where I brought up the interesting thing that Korean pros consider Terrans as the strongest race at the TOP level. And mentioned, that this is because of one player (who is not TY). And KT fans started to argue, that why is it not TY? First that was the moment, when I started to "bash TY" = explain, why he is not one of the players from absolute TOP (because he cannot compete with any player from the absolute TOP).
On May 31 2016 21:05 NinjaToss wrote:Then you guys start to bring the topic to sOs and Maru, and bash TY. Is that not JA's fan bashing KT?
That was the general discussion about the best player, where I brought up the interesting thing that Korean pros consider Terrans as the strongest race at the TOP level. And mentioned, that this is because of one player (who is not TY). And KT fans started to argue, that why is it not TY? First that was the moment, when I started to "bash TY" = explain, why he is not one of the players from absolute TOP (because he cannot compete with any player from the absolute TOP).
I get your point, but calling TY a LOSER is really too strong and too negative
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
0 is equal to 0.
You obviously don't believe hard enough in your president...
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
0 is equal to 0.
Nah, sOs supposes to get two offline champions each year (at least), that's his "tradition" Since he already got one this year, let's see what offline titles are left for the second half of 2016: GSL, SSL, Blizzcon and maybe HomeStory Cup? So make your choice
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
0 is equal to 0.
Nah, sOs supposes to get two offline champions each year (at least), that's his "tradition" Since he already got one this year, let's see what offline titles are left for the second half of 2016: GSL, SSL, Blizzcon and maybe HomeStory Cup? So make your choice
Considering that his first title this year was rather unimportant, i would guess it to be Homestory cup
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
0 is equal to 0.
Nah, sOs supposes to get two offline champions each year (at least), that's his "tradition" Since he already got one this year, let's see what offline titles are left for the second half of 2016: GSL, SSL, Blizzcon and maybe HomeStory Cup? So make your choice
Considering that his first title this year was rather unimportant, i would guess it to be Homestory cup
HSC is shaping up to be the most important tourney of the year outside of Korea anywhere. If nothing then for the high-level audience + Show Spoiler +
On May 30 2016 23:13 Tiaraju9 wrote: I have a peculiar relationship with Zest play. I took a break from Starcraft for most of 2014, precisely when Zest was playing like a god.
When I came back in 2015 there was this "Zest is best" talk going on, but Zest was not actually performing. The situation made me confused and back then I had this feeling that Zest is the most overrated player ever.
I just hope that he stays performing for more than 1 year this time.
you missed most of the SC2 in 2014 and you claimed you felt Zest was the most overrated player ever？ so are you saying that things you dont know mean they dont exist ?
yes, he didnt get any korean titles in 2015, but he was the most winning player in SPL of the year (with hero), how could a "overrated player" did that?
I dont understand why you jin air fans being so mad about zest, and by the way, "zest is best " is fancheer, he is sure the best in his fans' eyes, just like sos and maru are the best in your JAGW fans' eyes, what is the point to even argue about?
and since you are so despise him, I doubt that he staying performing even for more than 10 years would help
I wasn't hating on zest, I was hating on KT player's dismissal on sOs.
are you seriously?? have you ever READed your jin air fan comrades comments ??
"zest doesnt deserve the Titan title for his poor winrate" "TY is a loser" "zest is the most overrated"
and suddenly it becomes "KT player's dismissal on sOs"？？
"TY is a loser" is not his quote, that is MY quote! And I said it only in relation when I mentioned that the Korean pros believe, that the strongest race on the top level are Terrans. But there is only one Terran, who shines and is beating all the other TOP players and it is not TY. And I got a reaction "And who else than TY?" ... so in this relation, among the TOP players, TY is really a loser. You can't take quotes out of the context.
does it make any difference since the JAGW fans here share the same points anyway? 2 times GSL champion is the most overrated player, 1 time GSL runner-up is a REAL loser. KT sucks! that's all
Dude, I think you should calm down, stop picking fight. JinAir fans already admit Zest is the best player right now, that's enough. That was the point of this whole great debate
Actually I'm quite calming down, and I'm not the one who picked up a fight which I would call it a little bit "defence"
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
Consistent hero? What? Rain was one of the most stable macro P, Parting was one of the best players for the longest period(though his inability to get over RO8 in GSL was pretty painful). Yes, Zest had his slumping stage, but Mvp had his slump stages too(that's why he was an underdog in many tournaments he won), not mentioning Taeja who is named after Summer just because he can switch to god mode only with enough sunshine(why isn't he living in a desert? ).
C'mon, there is plenty of consistent Protoss players. I am still awed how people tend to mention only things they like (well, not really :D)
Actually, your point about Rain is valid and I'll give you that. As far as mentioning only things I like, the only two players I was ever a personal fan of on that list were TaeJa and Life.
On May 31 2016 20:04 Alarak89 wrote: So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
I think sOs has more korean championships in his future considering his strength is in breaking down his opponents rather than perfect game knowledge/mechanics. I think MC's time as a championship contender is done, but Zest still has a lot of work to do to surpass MC's legacy.
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
0 is equal to 0.
Nah, sOs supposes to get two offline champions each year (at least), that's his "tradition" Since he already got one this year, let's see what offline titles are left for the second half of 2016: GSL, SSL, Blizzcon and maybe HomeStory Cup? So make your choice
Considering that his first title this year was rather unimportant, i would guess it to be Homestory cup
I know, right? But unfortunately, due to the following reasons:
1. New Blizzcon format (no WCS points) 2. New SPL format (no time on weekend)
I don't think he will participate in HSC even if he got invited. Oh, I almost forgot, any Kespa Cup this year?
On May 31 2016 15:19 Kitai wrote: In my eyes, protoss is the one race that hasn't had a consistent hero that was able to stay super dominant for a long period of time, besides maybe MC. Terran had MVP, TaeJa, Maru, and INnoVation, while zerg had Life, Nestea, and soO.
Zest, Rain, and Dear were all at one point hailed as the upcoming greatest protoss players of all time. It's nice to see Zest having a resurgence, but I'm really hesitant to hop on his hype train until he stays consistently ridiculously good for another few months. Of all the GOAT protoss contenders still playing today, I'd personally give the edge to sOs or MC even if they aren't at Zest's level this particular instant.
So which probability is higher in the future? sOs win several GSL/SSL champions to be the GOAT, or MC win several Blizzcon champions to be the GOAT?
0 is equal to 0.
Nah, sOs supposes to get two offline champions each year (at least), that's his "tradition" Since he already got one this year, let's see what offline titles are left for the second half of 2016: GSL, SSL, Blizzcon and maybe HomeStory Cup? So make your choice
Considering that his first title this year was rather unimportant, i would guess it to be Homestory cup
HSC is shaping up to be the most important tourney of the year outside of Korea anywhere. If nothing then for the high-level audience + Show Spoiler +
(me).
That's totally depending on who and how many Kespa top-tier players will be invited If none of them has time on weekend due to new SPL format, then the quality of HSC will "stay same" as it usually does
I regret to say, but this article is not very well written. Literally every player mentioned is somehow "the best player ever". Also, "MC hasn't been at his peak for years"? You make it sound like the game has been around for decades, rather than since five years ago. And finally, if Zest could pull through his low period and make it back to the top, who's to say the other players you have mentioned who might be slumping at the moment won't do the same? You should have acknowledged the possibility, rather than ignore it in a way which detracts from your argument.
EPT
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