On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
So Blizzard patched those things so the community would shut up and not because they had statistical evidence that there were problems?
You know what there might be something to that theory. Regardless, the idea that there was imbalance there is not born out of nothing.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
Life was one of the very, very few who was demonstrably great at both.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
That's the thing though. Zest has won weekend tournaments - Kespa Cup, GSL Global Championship, IEM WC. But he's also won GSLs. sOs hasn't.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
If I remember correctly, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji and Roro are all GSL champions, right? So they must all got an "easier" brackect?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
That's why every evaluation is in the end subject to different criteria and therefore subjective.
On May 29 2016 21:53 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:44 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:43 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:35 Elentos wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:33 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:25 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
If I remember correctly, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji and Roro are all GSL champions, right? So they must all got an "easier" brackect?
Funny that you bring these up, because they're perfect examples to counter your argument. Jjakji benefited from people not knowing him and very strong TvZ, Sniper won a GSL during BL/infestor imbalance, Seed won his GSL with unconventional strategies before he was figured out, Roro won during BL/infestor imbalance.
None of this would be shown in your statistics. That's exactly why you need to take a massive number of different factors into account, which you don't. That's why your arguments are flawed.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
but then preparations tournaments are harder because your opponent has enough time to prepare build to snipe you specifically, which is why it's also harder to win against
Or also easier to win against good opponents. Tbh, I think those tournaments give different tastes and tests different kinds of talents. On short tournaments, people who are solid but also good at changing things and innovating on the spots such as taeja, sOs, life, etc shine the most and on longer tournaments, people who are just solid and good at concentrating against one thing such as zest, innovation, etc shine the most
That's the thing though. Zest has won weekend tournaments - Kespa Cup, GSL Global Championship, IEM WC. But he's also won GSLs. sOs hasn't.
GSL Global Championship was not that prestigious though, it only consisted of eight players or sth. But I see your point. Still, Hot6ix tournament was kind of prepartory tournament with only the finals was unknown.
One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Who defined that? How do you know? just because more preparations? Then I would say to adjust or adapt quickly is more important and harder than "preparations"
Because you can play at a "World Championship" and get a lucky bracket, beat weaker opponents and win that way.
That's why every evaluation is in the end subject to different criteria and therefore subjective.
On May 29 2016 21:53 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:44 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:43 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:35 Elentos wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:33 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:25 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 21:17 Olli wrote: Could be because sOs gets easier groups but falls short against stronger players. Win statistics can be a really weak measurement until you take a really close look at them and examine where they come from.
This obsession with numbers is really silly. It doesn't take into account the current metagame, how good opponents are, essentially nothing at all except raw winrates. By that logic every GSL win is equally difficult and every Korean is equally skilled, which is absolute nonsense.
"Taking into account current metagame" is however one of the biggest reservations people have against all of stuchiu's work. Because "current metagame" is a posh way of saying "balance whine flavour of the month".
You're not drawing an accurate picture if you leave it out, though. Otherwise you'd notice a remarkable trend that a ton of zerg players all, at the same time, became really good at the end of WoL.
Remember that time from late 2013 until the 2nd half of 2014 where suddenly a bunch of Protoss players got really good at the same time? That was so weird, too.
Thank you both for making my point for me
Wasn't your point that the metagame shouldn't be taken into account? How is pointing out factual imbalances in any way helping your argument then?
Because you have both provided examples of "factual imbalance" that were blown out of proportions by the community and were to a large extend due to the inability of players to adapt. Maybe BL/festor was slightly legit, but it still wasn't nearly as unfair as people make it. The "patchtoss" idea is laughable.
That's a rather subjective idea. I don't think they were blown out of proportion. I played and watched the game at a reasonably high level in both those "eras", statistics underlined them, etc.
There were definitely protoss players who benefited solely from the metagame being in their favor. Looking at people like Arthur, Paralyze, etc.
If I remember correctly, Seed, Sniper, Jjakji and Roro are all GSL champions, right? So they must all got an "easier" brackect?
Funny that you bring these up, because they're perfect examples to counter your argument. Jjakji benefited from people not knowing him and very strong TvZ, Sniper won a GSL during BL/infestor imbalance, Seed won his GSL with unconventional strategies before he was figured out, Roro won during BL/infestor imbalance.
None of this would be shown in your statistics. That's exactly why you need to take a massive number of different factors into account, which you don't. That's why your arguments are flawed.
No, they are the perfect examples showing that a GSL champion is just not as "valuable" as you think
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
zest vs maru was the week after the adept and overcharge nerf.
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
Zest and Maru played after Protoss got nerfed. Besides, what kind of excuse is that?
On May 29 2016 22:16 Olli wrote: One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
Who knows if the "new format" will stay forever? Who knows if sOs cannot win a GSL/SSL?
On May 29 2016 21:48 Olli wrote: Just because something's labelled "World Championship" doesn't make it a more difficult tournament to win. It just sounds cool.
Good point, that's why the GSL is still one of the hardest if not the hardest tournament to win. And Zest has 3 of them
I would not count the third one as it was pretty short tournament and consisted of only eight players or sth. And who says that blizzcon wins are worse than GSLs? 2015 blizzcon alone consisted of zest, inno, classic, hero, maru, life, rain, parting, rogue etc... how more stacked can you be in a tournament?
Did sOs beat all those players?
Did zest beat all those players on the last GSL? And maru should not count as TvP match back then was pretty much P favored if I remember well. Also, sOs beat parting, rain, rogue and life in his 2015 blizzcon run. Why do you think that's not legitimate?
I do think it's legitimate. However: Parting and Rain both had PvP as their weakest matchup, while it was sOs' strongest. Rogue, in my book, wasn't an absolute top player and Life played very poorly at Blizzcon, yet somehow stumbled through with luck of his own.
Compare that to Zest's most recent GSL for example. He beat every semifinalist, including the #2 protoss, the #2 zerg and the #3 terran. He beat Terrans #1 and #2 in Code A and in the finals. He literally crossed off every important name except Dark, who got himself eliminated earlier, decisively and without ever really breaking a sweat. This is a more impressive tournament win than sOs' Blizzcon. As was Zest's first GSL.
On May 29 2016 22:16 Olli wrote: One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
Who knows if the "new format" will stay forever? Who knows if sOs cannot win a GSL/SSL?
Please put a space between the end of your sentences and your smiley faces, my OCD can't handle this.
The format isn't going to change drastically any time soon as long as ESL and Dreamhack want to have foreigners win their tournaments.
On May 29 2016 22:16 Olli wrote: One thing you're all missing is that foreign tournaments don't really matter going forward anyway, because of the new WCS format. Which means that sOs, who's never won a GSL or SSL, is going to have a much harder time winning things now, whereas Zest has clearly shown that he can win in that format.
Who knows if the "new format" will stay forever? Who knows if sOs cannot win a GSL/SSL?
EPT
