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Zest: The Last Titan - Page 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
426 CommentsPost a Reply
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Diabolique
Profile Joined June 2015
Czech Republic5118 Posts
May 29 2016 10:47 GMT
#201
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
sOs | Rogue | Maru | Trap | Scarlett | Snute | MC
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 10:47 GMT
#202
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 10:52:17
May 29 2016 10:50 GMT
#203
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
May 29 2016 11:04 GMT
#204
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


Better count Maru out then, he won nothing in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014.
NinjaToss
Profile Blog Joined October 2015
Austria1383 Posts
May 29 2016 11:08 GMT
#205
Zest did not win anything in 2013, but he all-killed STX Soul in 2013, so he actually kinda did something?
I'm sorry for all those that got their hearts broken by Zest | Zest, Bisu, soO, herO, MC, Maru, TY, Rogue, Trap, TaeJa", Favourite foreigners: ShoWTimE, Snute, Serral and Nerchio| KT BEST KT |
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:10 GMT
#206
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:14 GMT
#207
On May 29 2016 20:08 NinjaToss wrote:
Zest did not win anything in 2013, but he all-killed STX Soul in 2013, so he actually kinda did something?

Sure, better than nothing
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
May 29 2016 11:16 GMT
#208
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:16 GMT
#209
On May 29 2016 20:04 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


Better count Maru out then, he won nothing in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014.

I never say he is "in" since his offline win rates against Koreans are below 60% as well.
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 11:26:50
May 29 2016 11:19 GMT
#210
I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.

Your criteria in general are really really odd.

For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?

But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:

1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in.
2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL.
3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.

And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:21 GMT
#211
On May 29 2016 20:16 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.

Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 29 2016 11:21 GMT
#212
I'd put the limit at 69 personally
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
May 29 2016 11:23 GMT
#213
On May 29 2016 20:21 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:16 Phredxor wrote:
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.

Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"


My bad I am only counting premiers and forgot the MSI.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:29 GMT
#214
On May 29 2016 20:23 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:21 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 20:16 Phredxor wrote:
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.

Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"


My bad I am only counting premiers and forgot the MSI.

That's fine. But you saw how evenly his championships distributed throughout four years, right? That's what I called "healthy" and "stable"
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12134 Posts
May 29 2016 11:31 GMT
#215
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"

I love both sOs and herO, but as long as they are not able to win a GSL championship in a time, when no one is believing in the race called Protoss, the are not greater than MC. MC won several tournaments, but the most important is his GSL victory. MC was one of the most important Protoss players.

Jeez, I love sOs but right now Zest is stronger, faster and better. If we look at the bigger picture, consistency is with Zest. sOs is more binary. He's either awful or in godmode.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:33 GMT
#216
On May 29 2016 20:21 opisska wrote:
I'd put the limit at 69 personally

You can put the limit at 99% if you want, but you have to be realistic
If someday, several players can reach that number, of course that will be the new cut-off point
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55594 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 11:57:44
May 29 2016 11:50 GMT
#217
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest?

The fact that you even bother asking this question is hilarious.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 12:00 GMT
#218
On May 29 2016 20:31 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"

I love both sOs and herO, but as long as they are not able to win a GSL championship in a time, when no one is believing in the race called Protoss, the are not greater than MC. MC won several tournaments, but the most important is his GSL victory. MC was one of the most important Protoss players.

Jeez, I love sOs but right now Zest is stronger, faster and better. If we look at the bigger picture, consistency is with Zest. sOs is more binary. He's either awful or in godmode.

Again, when you say "the most important", you are using your "imagination" and personal feeling because there is no data to support your argument
I am not saying who is stronger, I am saying Zest is not "the last Titian" atm if you are talking about GOAT.
Regarding to "consistency", how "big" is your picture? Bigger than a year? Can you find another player with his championships so evenly distributed throughout his career?
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
May 29 2016 12:10 GMT
#219
Numbers lie just as much if you twist them like you do.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55594 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 12:17:57
May 29 2016 12:13 GMT
#220
The fact that sOs's titles are distributed so evenly hurts him more than it helps him when it comes to stuchiu. Because what it amounts to in the end is that he is one of the most consistent players at the top but he never has the streaks of complete dominance where he just destroys everyone for several months in a row. Never more than 2 titles per year.

Also, interesting tidbit, according to aligulac sOs has better win rates in GSL than Zest but Zest has 3 GSL titles and sOs none.
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