• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 07:22
CEST 13:22
KST 20:22
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244
Community News
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon60Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism10Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?168Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft open world shooter announced at BlizzCon How do you feel about the StarCraft shooter announcement at BlizzCon 2026? Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners Weekly Cups (Aug 30-Sep 7): herO thrives amid growing schism
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22 KSL Week #92 IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly 2026 GSTL Announcement
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 542 The Ascended Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This
Brood War
General
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Broodwar Prediction Market Practice Partners (Official) [D] Brainstorming a balance patch for Brood war
Tourneys
[ASL22] Ro16 Group B [ASL22] Ro16 Group A Escore Tournament - Season 3 Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Game Theory for Starcraft
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Trading/Investing Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Diablo Animated Series on Netflix Movie Discussion!
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Virtual Romance, Real-Life C…
TrAiDoS
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5738 users

Zest: The Last Titan - Page 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
426 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 22 Next All
Diabolique
Profile Joined June 2015
Czech Republic5118 Posts
May 29 2016 10:47 GMT
#201
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)
sOs | Rogue | Maru | Trap | Scarlett | Snute | MC
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 10:47 GMT
#202
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 10:52:17
May 29 2016 10:50 GMT
#203
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
May 29 2016 11:04 GMT
#204
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


Better count Maru out then, he won nothing in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014.
NinjaToss
Profile Blog Joined October 2015
Austria1383 Posts
May 29 2016 11:08 GMT
#205
Zest did not win anything in 2013, but he all-killed STX Soul in 2013, so he actually kinda did something?
I'm sorry for all those that got their hearts broken by Zest | Zest, Bisu, soO, herO, MC, Maru, TY, Rogue, Trap, TaeJa", Favourite foreigners: ShoWTimE, Snute, Serral and Nerchio| KT BEST KT |
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:10 GMT
#206
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:14 GMT
#207
On May 29 2016 20:08 NinjaToss wrote:
Zest did not win anything in 2013, but he all-killed STX Soul in 2013, so he actually kinda did something?

Sure, better than nothing
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
May 29 2016 11:16 GMT
#208
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:16 GMT
#209
On May 29 2016 20:04 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


Better count Maru out then, he won nothing in 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014.

I never say he is "in" since his offline win rates against Koreans are below 60% as well.
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 11:26:50
May 29 2016 11:19 GMT
#210
I don't know what your obsession with the number 60 is about.

Your criteria in general are really really odd.

For example, measured by number of offline championships alone, Taeja would be the best player in history. Win percentage alone, someone else might be?

But you're completely ignoring a few very real factors:

1) The reality that GSL and SSL are considered more difficult tournaments due to preparation factoring in.
2) The reality that win percentage means very little if you're not turning it into tournament wins - especially GSL or SSL.
3) The reality that your win percentage against Korean players might have come against different calibers of opponents and can therefore not be measured universally. Example: a win against a player in a GSL finals is measured the same as a Bo1 win against an opponent who might not even be in Code A. That's stupid.

And a few more. In other words, you're twisting and using only statistics that benefit your argument.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:21 GMT
#211
On May 29 2016 20:16 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.

Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
May 29 2016 11:21 GMT
#212
I'd put the limit at 69 personally
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
Phredxor
Profile Joined May 2013
New Zealand15076 Posts
May 29 2016 11:23 GMT
#213
On May 29 2016 20:21 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:16 Phredxor wrote:
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.

Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"


My bad I am only counting premiers and forgot the MSI.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:29 GMT
#214
On May 29 2016 20:23 Phredxor wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:21 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 20:16 Phredxor wrote:
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"


They both would have more than sOs since he only has 4. Mvp has that many GSL's alone. Be pretty close between the others.

Sorry, sOs had seven individual championships throughout four years evenly, one of the most in the league, check their records, don't use your "imagination"


My bad I am only counting premiers and forgot the MSI.

That's fine. But you saw how evenly his championships distributed throughout four years, right? That's what I called "healthy" and "stable"
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
deacon.frost
Profile Joined February 2013
Czech Republic12133 Posts
May 29 2016 11:31 GMT
#215
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"

I love both sOs and herO, but as long as they are not able to win a GSL championship in a time, when no one is believing in the race called Protoss, the are not greater than MC. MC won several tournaments, but the most important is his GSL victory. MC was one of the most important Protoss players.

Jeez, I love sOs but right now Zest is stronger, faster and better. If we look at the bigger picture, consistency is with Zest. sOs is more binary. He's either awful or in godmode.
I imagine France should be able to take this unless Lilbow is busy practicing for Starcraft III. | KadaverBB is my fairy ban mother.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 11:33 GMT
#216
On May 29 2016 20:21 opisska wrote:
I'd put the limit at 69 personally

You can put the limit at 99% if you want, but you have to be realistic
If someday, several players can reach that number, of course that will be the new cut-off point
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55593 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 11:57:44
May 29 2016 11:50 GMT
#217
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest?

The fact that you even bother asking this question is hilarious.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Alarak89
Profile Joined January 2016
United States882 Posts
May 29 2016 12:00 GMT
#218
On May 29 2016 20:31 deacon.frost wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2016 20:10 Alarak89 wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:50 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:47 Alarak89 wrote:
If a guy who did nothing in the year of 2013 can be called "the last Titan", then clearly there will be some other "Titans" exist in other dimensions


MC did essentially nothing for the past two years, yet he's still considered among, if not the, best protoss players of all time. Your arguments are weak.

Mvp himself did very little from 2013 onwards, but he's the best player of all time. What Zest did in 2013 is so irrelevant to his current standing, I don't even know why you're trying to argue about it.

On May 29 2016 19:47 Diabolique wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:40 Olli wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:31 opisska wrote:
On May 29 2016 19:25 Olli wrote:
The gist of the article is that, according to stu's criteria, Zest is the only one currently active who's looking like he might challenge Mvp one day. And I would agree to that, unless Maru starts winning GSLs real soon or Innovation decides to be good again.


But that's a completely nonsensical conclusion, in the view of the Zest's previous slump. Zest himself shows that current form is not a good long-term indicator, yet his current form is used as a current indicator. Innovation is the perfect counterpoint: he has enough legacy that by simply getting good again, he's suddenly gonna be a big GOAT competitor. There are not too many such people left - if Stats starts dominating now for some reason, he needs years to be considered a Mvp challenger, but they do exist and unless they Life themselves away, the only upper hand Zest has is the current form.


He also has the titles. Reminder, once again, because people have terrible memory: If Mvp has 4 GSLs and Life has 3, then Zest also has 3. Mvp's 4th was a Global Championship, Life's 3rd was Blizzard Cup. Zest's 3rd was a Global Championship.

Add to that his IEM WC, Kespa Cup. Add to that his Proleague achievements. Then add to that his current form.

Zest's "slump" included an IEM WC and the tied most Proleague wins. That's not exactly what Innovation is doing right now.

There's nobody whose outlook as nearly as good. Innovation has two GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, he's closest by these criteria. Maru has 2 titles and good form, he's looking closest to Zest. Innovation has 2 GSLs and a WCS Season Finals, but he sucks atm and is likely not making it into GSL again.

So who does come close?

Snute? :-P
He is beating Zest, he does not have a GSL title, but he regularly beats GSL champions, so he must be better than them, right? :-)


No and I didn't say that anywhere ever.

Sorry, I am afraid of that only you consider MC and Mvp as "the best" player What are their win rates against Koreans? How many offline championships did they win? Higher/more than sOs, herO and Zest? I trust in numbers, not your "imagination"
Also, they all played at least four years SC2, so every year counts when we talking about "consistency". Because Zest was "weak" in 2013 doesn't make my argument "weak"

I love both sOs and herO, but as long as they are not able to win a GSL championship in a time, when no one is believing in the race called Protoss, the are not greater than MC. MC won several tournaments, but the most important is his GSL victory. MC was one of the most important Protoss players.

Jeez, I love sOs but right now Zest is stronger, faster and better. If we look at the bigger picture, consistency is with Zest. sOs is more binary. He's either awful or in godmode.

Again, when you say "the most important", you are using your "imagination" and personal feeling because there is no data to support your argument
I am not saying who is stronger, I am saying Zest is not "the last Titian" atm if you are talking about GOAT.
Regarding to "consistency", how "big" is your picture? Bigger than a year? Can you find another player with his championships so evenly distributed throughout his career?
sOs is THE ONLY player I pay attention to
Olli
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
Austria24422 Posts
May 29 2016 12:10 GMT
#219
Numbers lie just as much if you twist them like you do.
Administrator"Declaring anything a disaster because aLive popped up out of nowhere is just downright silly."
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55593 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-29 12:17:57
May 29 2016 12:13 GMT
#220
The fact that sOs's titles are distributed so evenly hurts him more than it helps him when it comes to stuchiu. Because what it amounts to in the end is that he is one of the most consistent players at the top but he never has the streaks of complete dominance where he just destroys everyone for several months in a row. Never more than 2 titles per year.

Also, interesting tidbit, according to aligulac sOs has better win rates in GSL than Zest but Zest has 3 GSL titles and sOs none.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Prev 1 9 10 11 12 13 22 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
11:00
Pre Blizzcon Cup
ByuN vs Percival
Cure vs Classic
WardiTV297
Liquipedia
Sparkling Tuna Cup
10:00
Weekly #146
SHIN vs GeraldLIVE!
herO vs TBD
CranKy Ducklings135
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Rex 85
MindelVK 28
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 25029
Calm 9782
PianO 3821
Jaedong 2301
Pusan 626
firebathero 445
Larva 376
Hyun 271
Mini 178
Last 129
[ Show more ]
ZerO 72
Sharp 65
Mong 58
Killer 48
HiyA 41
Shinee 39
Aegong 39
sSak 33
Trap 28
Shine 19
Hm[arnc] 18
NaDa 18
Sea.KH 18
SilentControl 14
Rock 11
JulyZerg 10
ajuk12(nOOB) 10
NotJumperer 7
Dota 2
ODPixel611
Fuzer 185
Counter-Strike
edward492
x6flipin309
zeus255
Other Games
summit1g14663
Pyrionflax256
DeMusliM98
KnowMe91
ZerO(Twitch)5
Organizations
StarCraft 2
IntoTheiNu 662
Other Games
BasetradeTV210
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 24
lovetv 8
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 99
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP24
• Adnapsc2 9
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2092
Other Games
• WagamamaTV250
Upcoming Events
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
3h 38m
Spirit vs Mixu
Clem vs TBD
RSL Revival
4h 38m
Serral vs Rogue
BlizzCon
7h 8m
IdrA vs MC
Afreeca Starleague
22h 38m
Light vs JyJ
Soulkey vs hero
WardiTV Weekly
23h 38m
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 4h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 22h
Snow vs Shinee
Shine vs EffOrt
GSL
1d 23h
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
[ Show More ]
Kung Fu Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
KCM Race Survival
3 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
GSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #5 - TRS
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.