EPTClassic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
Greatest HotS Players of All Time: Part 3 - Page 14
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though. | ||
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Deleted User 132135
702 Posts
On March 22 2016 12:23 Charoisaur wrote: the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system  Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll. This list looks pretty solid in comparison to that of stuchiu, which was obviously altered in a way in order to put taeja up as high as possible. Innovation & Maru were undoubtedly the #1 and #2 terrans of HOTS. There is nothing to debate about. Stuchiu doesn't seem to understand that foreigner tournaments were of lesser importance for GSL/Proleague Koreans like Innovation and therefore the causal chain: innovation beats GSL - taeja beats innovation - taeja better innovation/GSL, isn't worth a penny but this is the result he is showing in this ranking. A solid system to evaluate results can be achieved when taking into account not only the objective tier level of a tournament/league but also the individual rank that the thing had for a certain player at a certain point of time. Those dreamhacks etc. that were the highest tier for taeja while he was abroad were at the same time the lowest tier for those GSL/Proleague players who traveled there to participate in. It is sad to see that TL needs to make up rankings and be biased towards own team members. This isn't right especially in the context of matchfixing and times of hard standing of SC2 in terms of popularity. This way TL is losing the trust of its users. Taeja doesn't deserve this. He was at that one year one of the best. But HOTS went longer than that year and taeja didn't prove him being #2 in this ranking in GSLs, WCS', Blizzcons which others did. He deserves top 10 overall but rating him higher than inno and maru? In no way this can be justified. Anyway, what is left to ppl. who read this is only to attach few importance to it. If that was the goal of TL than I'd say: mission accomplished. Noone who has a deeper idea of SC2 can agree with this ranking no matter how much you try to make it look serious and explain the weighting. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On March 22 2016 23:48 Olli wrote: Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that. Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though. You should do a list for the Protoss Dragons  | ||
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Silvana
3713 Posts
).So thanks again stuchiu for this article! | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it | ||
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Yorkie
United States12612 Posts
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:16 Olli wrote: Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it But I wanna know where you rank Seed :O | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:16 Olli wrote: Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it Sometimes I wonder if TL writers thrive on hate and controversy As long as HerO isn't Top 5 (Zest, sOs, Classic, Rain & herO), I won't be hating. (You could rank HerO ahead of Parting, just to bait the Big Boy) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:31 RKC wrote: Sometimes I wonder if TL writers thrive on hate and controversy As long as HerO isn't Top 5 (Zest, sOs, Classic, Rain & herO), I won't be hating. (You could rank HerO ahead of Parting, just to bait the Big Boy) MC>Rain>PartinG>herO>sOs | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition). PvT: Parting, Rain, herO, HerO PvZ: HerO, Rain, Zest, herO PvP: Zest, Rain, sOs, Classic ... or something like that. And yes, that's former LiquidHerO at #1 all time PvZ, and I could write you a book about my reasoning. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
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RKC
2848 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias. Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition). PvT: Parting, Rain, herO, HerO PvZ: HerO, Rain, Zest, herO PvP: Zest, Rain, sOs, Classic ... or something like that. And yes, that's former LiquidHerO at #1 all time PvZ, and I could write you a book about my reasoning. Rain no. 1? | ||
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sharkie
Austria18407 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias. Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition). PvT: Parting, Rain, herO, HerO PvZ: HerO, Rain, Zest, herO PvP: Zest, Rain, sOs, Classic ... or something like that. And yes, that's former LiquidHerO at #1 all time PvZ, and I could write you a book about my reasoning. you have herO twice in your list | ||
stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias. Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition). PvT: Parting, Rain, herO, HerO PvZ: HerO, Rain, Zest, herO PvP: Zest, Rain, sOs, Classic ... or something like that. And yes, that's former LiquidHerO at #1 all time PvZ, and I could write you a book about my reasoning. PvT list is deceptive. Parting is ahead by a country mile in that matchup. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:55 stuchiu wrote: PvT list is deceptive. Parting is ahead by a country mile in that matchup. Agreed. Best protoss is really hard. It's somewhere between Rain, Zest and someone like MC for me, depending on your criteria. | ||
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RKC
2848 Posts
Z > T > P | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 23 2016 00:22 Yorkie wrote: So is the implication that if Kespa retroactively takes away all of Life's titles because he threw a few PL games then we will no longer consider him the best player in hots? I get that kespa has to formally take the titles away to punish him (if he's in fact found guilty) but are we really gonna shut our eyes and pretend that his wins didn't happen anymore? Seems more than a bit strange and idealistic. This is a very good question. And the complete lack of silence since Life has been taken in for questioning is unsettling. I don't think we (the passionate community) should do anything until any definitive resolution is reached in his case, and the possible crimes/outcomes laid out to see/examine. As for now, his achievements fully stand in my eyes (#3 on my HOTS S class tier, and GOAT for the totality of SC2), despite his legacy being almost irrevocably tarnished. If it does come out in the future that he was directly involved in altering his own games (in PL and/or individual tournaments) and/or those of his direct competitors in any tournament(s), I'll have to reassess after factoring in the evidence. Unless it's shown that he unfairly won game(s) because his opponent took a willing fall (highly unlikely considering his superior talent level, and how match-fixing overwhelmingly works), his achievements will still likely stand for me in their entirety. Despite the terrible damage he will have inflicted on the entire SC2 scene. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 23 2016 01:43 Orr wrote: This is a very good question. And the complete lack of silence since Life has been taken in for questioning is unsettling. I don't think we (the passionate community) should do anything until any definitive resolution is reached in his case, and the possible crimes/outcomes laid out to see/examine. As for now, his achievements fully stand in my eyes (#3 on my HOTS S class tier, and GOAT for the totality of SC2), despite his legacy being almost irrevocably tarnished. If it does come out in the future that he was directly involved in altering his own games (in PL and/or individual tournaments) and/or those of his direct competitors in any tournament(s), I'll have to reassess after factoring in the evidence. Unless it's shown that he unfairly won game(s) because his opponent took a willing fall (highly unlikely considering his superior talent level, and how match-fixing overwhelmingly works), his achievements will still likely stand for me in their entirety. Despite the terrible damage he will have inflicted on the entire SC2 scene. I think this is a discussion for another place and time. It sounds like a lot of "ifs". | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 23 2016 01:13 RKC wrote: I also would love to see a 'Greatest Kong' list. By greatest amount of silver: soO > Marineking > ByuL > Symbol > Squirtle By Kongs with the best results: Marineking > soO > ByuL > Symbol > Squirtle | ||
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Orr
United States168 Posts
On March 23 2016 01:51 Big J wrote: I think this is a discussion for another place and time. It sounds like a lot of "ifs". It's definitely something that needs to discussed later in depth once more comes to light. Pretty eerie how he was taken into police custody almost two months ago regarding possible match-fixing, and nary a peep has been heard since from perhaps the highest profile SC2 player ever. But I think Yorkie's question still has significant merit here. Lots of this discussion is just back and forth over various top-ten caliber players being ranked a few places too high or low (namely Taeja and Classic it seems). Whereas this involves the #1 player on the entire HOTS power rankings. Stuchiu says he's easily the GOAT in HOTS, and has him #2 in his GOAT for all of SC2 (whereas many of us seem to clearly think Life is the very best ever). If this happened to someone in the Soulkey, Dear, or Bomber level tier, it would still be huge news w/ powerful ramifications but wouldn't fundamentally alter the purposes of this discussion. But we are talking about probably the greatest player in the history of SC2. And for the purposes of this HOTS era debate, clearly someone who is at minimum firmly entrenched in the top three, w/ a legit case for being the very best (where Stuchiu puts him). And the original question had nothing to do w/ possible guilt or not. Just how to view his placement both now, and in the future depending on the outcome. And I provided my response earlier. | ||
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