Having already done exhaustive rankings of the Greatest Players of All Time and the Greatest Foreigners of All Time, it seemed natural to me to that I’d wrap up HotS with a list of the Greatest HotS players. None of my criteria have changed from previous iterations, but here is a quick summary for those who hadn’t read the previous editions. You can read all of my criteria here.
Because there is a large overlap with this list and the previous Greatest Players of All Time, there will not be an exhaustive analysis on their stories, playstyles or an extensive explanation describing how I balanced the various factors. Just a brief summary of their place in the history of HotS and what they did to make the list.
There are moments in a pro gamer's life when you think to yourself, this is it, there is absolutely no way he is coming out of this hole. It happened once to me when I watched Mvp in the first season of GSL in 2012 and heard about his injuries. At the time I thought it was over and a new age would dawn. In 2014, after soO consecutively lost to Solar at DreamHack, INnoVation at Gamescom, and then TaeJa at BlizzCon, I thought to myself soO has broken. The five consecutive second places are too much, he isn’t coming back from this.
I was wrong on both accounts. In the first place, who could have predicted the genius and pure grit Mvp had going into 2012 anyway? In soO’s case it was because we had large amounts of historical data on a bunch of second placers who just eventually break after a period of time and even more second placers who just break after losing 1 finals. soO had lost 5. I was wrong and in one of the biggest redemption runs of the year, soO proved that he wasn’t done, that he hadn’t broken and that he could win. And for one night, soO won his first ever Korean LAN; for one night, Sisyphus rolled the boulder up the hill and it did not fall.
Difference between soO and Maru:
The same reasons that I gave for soO > Maru in the GOAT here. Nothing has changed except Maru has added another Top 4 to his list whereas soO added a KeSPA Cup win, which was stronger.
#4 | Zest
Achievements:
Tier 1
GSL Season 1 2014 - 1st
GSL Global Championship 2014 - 1st
GSL Season 3 2014 - Top 4
IEM Toronto - 2nd
KeSPA Cup - 1st
Hot6ix CUp - Top 4
IEM WC 2015 - 1st
When Zest came into the scene, you could hear the wails of thousands of SKT fans screaming in pain (mixed in with the cries of fangirls clamoring to touch his biceps). He gave them more to scream about in the coming year as he systematically destroyed SKT nearly every time they met. Possibly worse, he did it in a completely skilled way that lacked any kind of gimmicks. Not only did he destroy SKT, but for one year against the other 5 dragons of Protoss, he destroyed them too and in the blood of his Protoss and SKT rivals he crowned himself the best. Zest dominated one of the hardest years of competition and though he never reached those heights again in 2015, it was an incredible feat and in terms of pure domination was only passed by Life’s peak from late 2014-early 2015.
Difference between Zest and soO:
While soO closed the gap with his KeSPA Cup victory, it wasn’t enough.
#3 | INnoVation
Achievements:
Tier 1
MLG Winter Championship 2013: 3rd
GSL 2013 Season 1: 2nd
GSL Season 1 Finals 2013: 1st
OSL 2013: Top 4
DH Bucharest 2013: 2nd
DH Winter 2013: Top 4
GSL 2014 Season 3: 1st
GSL 2015 Season 3: 1st
Tier 2
ASUS Northcon: Top 4
DH Bucharest 2014: Top 4
Tier 3
MSI 2015: Top 4
Tier 4
IEM Gamescom - 1st
If Rain was the chosen Protoss, the one we all expected to lead the race into the future, then INnoVation was the chosen Terran. And in many ways he was that Terran. His builds are the standard that nearly all other Terrans copy. His builds are the safest and the best. He understands the most streamlined ways to play, the ones that try to preempt and avoid pitfalls that would force a player to make a decision and instead allow them to focus on their mechanics and execution.
Yet perfection seems to have come at a price. When faced with imbalance, INnoVation falters because there is no longer a clear answer. When Zerg was dominating Terran post mine nerf and into the mass mutalisk phase of 2014, INnoVation collapsed like a house of cards. Against the Blink era, he was helpless against the onslaught of stalkers. However when the meta works in his favor, when there is a clear path to victory, INnoVation shines. He was the strongest Terran during both the Hellbat drop era and the early 2013 4M parade pushes. He came back again to win a GSL after the widow mine/thor were rebuffed/buffed. He won his 2015 GSL after mech gained a boost of strength against Zerg after the Swarmhost nerf. Give INnoVation a clear path to the victory and he will march on it until the end. Throw him into a place of adversity and he falters.
Difference between INnoVation and Zest:
They were already close in the GOAT list, but INnoVation’s victory in GSL 2015 put him above Zest.
#2 | TaeJa
Achievements:
Tier 1
WCS NA Season 2 2013 - Top 4
WCS Season 2 Finals 2013 - Top 4
DH Bucharest 2013 - 1st
DH Winter 2013 - 1st
IEM WC 2014 - Top 4
IEM Shenzhen 2014 - 1st
IEM Toronto 2014 - Top 4
Blizzcon 2014 - Top 4
DH Winter 2014 - 3rd
Tier 2
DH Summer Open 2013 - Top 4
HSC VIII - 1st
HSC IX - 1st
DH Summer Open 2014 - 1st
HSC X - Top 4
Tier 3
HSC VII - 1st
ASUS ROG Summer 2013 - 1st
Red Bull Detroit - 2nd
DH Valencia 2012 - 1st
TaeJa continues to be and will probably forever be one of SC2’s biggest anomalies. He is one of SC2’s greatest players, yet he has never had a big title in Korea, which many people rightfully call the hardest tournaments in the world. Yet at the same time TaeJa has won the most LANs of anyone. Of course, the argument is that he had played a lot of easy ones. Yet he also had numerous hard LANs against the best players at the peak of their strength. Not only did he do that, but he did it consistently for three year in three of the hardest years of SC2 from 2012 to the end of 2014. In 2012, Terran was in its weakest state ever and the only other Terrans to have won a Premier were Mvp and Sting (And Sting’s was one of the weaker IEM’s). 2013-2014 had the most competitive players during that time before the mass retirements and the KeSPA players had completely transferred by that point, yet the player who won the most was TaeJa. In terms of pure numbers he has the best records against the best players of all time.
TaeJa's game record vs everyone else from the GOAT:
TaeJa 8-7 Leenock
TaeJa 10-8 DRG
TaeJa 3-0 Maru
TaeJa 3-1 soO
TaeJa 9-10 MarineKing
TaeJa 3-6 Rain
TaeJa 20-12 INnoVation
TaeJa 5-1 Zest
TaeJa 4-0 NesTea
TaeJa 13-7 MMA
TaeJa 13-18 Polt
TaeJa 18-10 MC
TaeJa 5-5 Mvp
TaeJa 29-20 Life
Only 3 players on the whole list have a positive record against TaeJa: MarineKing (who actually has a losing record in matches vs TaeJa) Rain and Polt.
TaeJa's match record vs everyone else on the list:
TaeJa 3-3 Leenock
TaeJa 4-3 DRG
TaeJa 2-0 Maru
TaeJa 1-0 soO
TaeJa 5-4 MarineKing
TaeJa 1-4 Rain
TaeJa 9-4 INnoVation
TaeJa 2-0 Zest
TaeJa 3-0 NesTea
TaeJa 7-5 MMA
TaeJa 4-6 Polt
TaeJa 6-5 MC
TaeJa 2-3 Mvp
TaeJa 11-6 Life
Again only 3 people have a positive record against TaeJa on the whole list: Mvp, Rain and Polt.
Earlier I wrote about how Maru’s sustained peak consistency was the best of anyone in HotS. Taeja’s was second best as he was a Top 3 Terran for all of 2013 and 2014 and proved it against the best players in multiple huge LANs.
Difference between INnoVation and TaeJa:
TaeJa was named both Terran of the year and player of the year in 2013 and Terran of the year in 2014. Both times it was over INnoVation and both times it was because of his spectacular consistency in winning against nearly everyone even without the big Korean titles. That logic still holds true now. In 2015, the only strong title INnoVation added was his GSL, yet even if you include that, the amount of Top 10-Top5 players TaeJa has beaten still dwarfs INnoVation's. Then you measure consistency where TaeJa’s peak consistency was better than INnoVation’s (though INnoVation had an extra year of being a top Terran in 2015), which is about even. Then you include the intangibles of how TaeJa was able to win against imbalance and INnoVation did not and there are just too many factors that were in TaeJa’s favor overall.
#1 | Life
Achievements:
Tier 1
MLG Winter Championship - 1st
DH Bucharest - Top 4
DH Winter - 2nd
GSL Season 1 2014 - Top 4
IEM Toronto - Top 4
Blizzcon 2014 - 1st
DH Winter 2014 - 2nd
SSL - Top 4
GSL Season 1 Code S 2015 - 1st
IEM Taipei - 1st
KeSPA Cup S2 - Top 4
Blizzcon 2015 - 2nd
Tier 2
IEM NY 2013 - 1st
DH Bucharest 2014 - 1st
Tier 3
Asus Northcon - Top 4
Life’s career is not too dissimilar from a bear but instead of hibernating in winter, he hibernates during summer. And instead of waking up in the spring to maul everyone, he wakes up in the fall to maul everyone. At this time Life has had three peaks and has had three falls “or slumps”. His first peak lasted from the end of 2012 to the beginning of 2013, his second from the end of 2013 to the beginning of 2014, and his third from the end of 2014 to the beginning of 2015. His fourth could have happened after BlizzCon, but now we'll never know. But one thing is clear. Life does not run along the same patterns of other SC2 players. Other SC2 players have a period of domination and then slowly fall down with intermittent peaks before retiring. In Life’s case he is either super on or he isn’t. But when he is super on, only the greatest in the world have a hope of stopping him. His domination over HotS wasn't consistent but when he was dominating, he dominated harder than anyone else besides peak Zest. He is easily HotS' greatest player and most likely the greatest Zerg SC2 will ever have.
Note about Life:
This list was written after BlizzCon and was finished before the start of the year. On January 31, 2016 Life was arrested for allegedly receiving money for match fixing. Since then, no details have come out as to his guilt or his innocence, and what role he had in the scandal.
So the question was whether or not we should acknowledge Life's achievements as a player. Is match fixing wrong? Yes. Does it hurt the scene? Yes. Is Life one of the greatest players to have played SC2? Yes. While we acknowledge his skills and achievements as a player, we do not condone any possible match fixing that was done by Life. Until more details are released regarding his role in the match fixing and the benefits he received, and until the tournament organizers and KeSPA strip him of his titles, he is still the greatest player in Heart of the Swarm.
Life's spot is undeniable. Also very glad to see soO recognized for his accomplishments.
I can absolutely, under no circumstance, get on board with TaeJa #2 though. In most individual sports, Tennis, Golf, etc. you are judged by how many Majors you win. Majors in Starcraft are Korean Titles, specifically GSLs, followed perhaps by SSLs and Blizzcons (even though Blizzcon is in USA). Taeja has 0 of these. If he were a Tennis player for example, people would say "Yeah, he won some Masters 1000's and some 750 and 500 tournaments but he doesn't have a single Grand Slam. He didn't even get close. Why exactly are we even talking about this guy?". Now granted, Taeja was a great player, definitely Top 10, but doing well in Korea and doing well outside of Korea are two entirely different things. This is your list though, so I respect your opinion but just wanted to share mine (obviously).
Please someone, tell me im drunk. I have never seen that big amount of bullshit in one article. I wanted to give stuchiu another chance after he put sOs #7, but with that garbage top 5 ranking, i have absolutly 0 interest in reading his articles anymore.
On top of that, it seems like he put more effort in finding funny pictures than wrting actual stuff. Around 5-6 lines per player? in the top 5?
Not only that article was lazy, but it was bias, and wrong on soo many aspects that no sane human would agree with stuchiu. Now i have 1 less writer to read and care about.
The saddest part is that the other GOAT was pretty good. This one is just a sad pathetic joke.
Totally disagree that a guy who's never won a tournament in Korea is #2 on this list. I don't give a damn if he beat Solar in the finals of an IEM or that he took out Life at a Dreamhack. Beating other top Koreans in a series late in a big tournament doesn't elevate you to greatness, running the gauntlet is the true test, and he never managed to.
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
"caters to fan favorites"
Puts herO above Zest & Rain & soO, polt before taeja, byul being on the list at all A good solid lack of bias there I see.
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
@ stuchiu's list: Well i disagree with Taeja being that high, but that's just one of the things we always disagree on (value of his wins compared to korean tournaments) Other than that the list looks decent enough for my taste i guess.
Solid work as always Stichui. Despite my strong disagreements with certain rankings (and not factoring in PL role/results, which has to be a critical component of the entire picture), all the work and research you've done has really allowed all of us to have much more informed discussions than would have otherwise been possible.
Until we know the specifics of Life's actions and the results of them, his achievements have to be recognized without bias. And if anything, the odds that he intentionally threw is far more likely than the other way around (having opponents intentionally lose). Which would only further make his achievements all the more impressive, if he in fact denied himself additional opportunities to win.
somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
Considering the remaining players at the time this article was posted, I can't understand why you are surprised finding Life #1 on this list. In my mind, this spot could of been contested by only a few, and none that weren't already ranked in parts one and two of this list. You can't really deny his achievements... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Life#Achievements
I respect stuchiu's method and his writing skills, but I strongly disagree with his list.
Taeja is way overrated. He's good, but essentialy, he's just a weekend warrior. The greatest players in SC2 are measured in the hardest tournament: the GSL. Taeja, as we all know, has failed in that regard.
Also, I strongly disagree with Dear not listed here. His peak was insane; even higher than Zest.
Same with sOs in N° 7. Come on, sOs shaped up the entire XvP metagame in early HoTS, besides winning 2 blizzcons, an insane feat.
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
You come across like he's personally wronged you in some way. His list is his and his alone. And never purported to be the all-encompassing, bible of rankings that we all must adhere too. He's done far more research than any of us, and these rankings are great for community discussion and at the very least, thought provoking.
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
You come across like he's personally wronged you in some way. His list is his and his alone. And never purported to be the all-encompassing, bible of rankings that we all must adhere too. He's done far more research than any of us, and these rankings are great for community discussion and at the very least, thought provoking.
The problem is that his list is not a random you see on reddit, its on TL, the most prestigious sc2 website, on the Featured news (not general discussion) Granted it should nto be taken like the bible, btu it should be somewhat respectable, unbias and logical.
If he made a lot of researchs, he would not have written such a garbage top 15. When you make a top list that thousands will see, you got to be professional and unbias.
He didnt cared at all about PL, probaly the most important league/tournament for koreans (with GSL), otherwise Life would not be #1.
Ask the majority of people if they would put sOs in their top 5, the vast majority would say yes, probaly in their top 3, probably #1 even.
Ask most people if they would put Taeja (even though I love him) above Inno, above sOs, above Zest even, most people would say no.
The fact that a writer like stuchiu made a list that would be read by thousands and didnt even care to do it well and without bias is what makes me disappointed.
If he had put Life #1, inno #2, sOs#3, i woudl have disagree, but it would make at least mroee sense. Now thats just bullshit
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
Considering the remaining players at the time this article was posted, I can't understand why you are surprised finding Life #1 on this list. In my mind, this spot could of been contested by only a few, and none that weren't already ranked in parts one and two of this list. You can't really deny his achievements... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Life#Achievements
putting his greatest contester rank #7 is a joke. Because of Life's poor performance in PL and huge inconsistency (being invisible for months multiple time in his career), i would not put him above sOs or Inno, both players that not only affected the meta more than life, but that had great individual results AND insane team results.
But sOs being #7 and taeja #2 is just a sad, awfull ranking.
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
You come across like he's personally wronged you in some way. His list is his and his alone. And never purported to be the all-encompassing, bible of rankings that we all must adhere too. He's done far more research than any of us, and these rankings are great for community discussion and at the very least, thought provoking.
The problem is that his list is not a random you see on reddit, its on TL, the most prestigious sc2 website, on the Featured news (not general discussion) Granted it should nto be taken like the bible, btu it should be somewhat respectable, unbias and logical.
If he made a lot of researchs, he would not have written such a garbage top 15. When you make a top list that thousands will see, you got to be professional and unbias.
He didnt cared at all about PL, probaly the most important league/tournament for koreans (with GSL), otherwise Life would not be #1.
Ask the majority of people if they would put sOs in their top 5, the vast majority would say yes, probaly in their top 3, probably #1 even.
Ask most people if they would put Taeja (even though I love him) above Inno, above sOs, above Zest even, most people would say no.
The fact that a writer like stuchiu made a list that would be read by thousands and didnt even care to do it well and without bias is what makes me disappointed.
If he had put Life #1, inno #2, sOs#3, i woudl have disagree, but it would make at least mroee sense. Now thats just bullshit
I really shouldn't feed the troll, but here we go:
You say Life shouldn't be number one because of his PL results (which you say is about the same lvl of importance as gsl). If that's your argument, why should sOs be number one (no most people would definitely not say that sOs should be number one) when he pretty much did the same in GSL? Where is your "consistency" here? It's also arguable that proleague results should have the same meaning as starleague results, but sure i simply took that as a given here (i agree that PL is important though) Stuchiu isn't biased, he simply chose priorities and made a list based on that. You can disagree with his method (i do so too to some extent) but all you really do is flame him for no apparent reason. If anything you are pretty "biased".
Taeja's positive record against the other GOATs is very misleading. This record comes from fighting them almost exclusively on HIS turf.
For Taeja nothing is more important than whatever weekend tournaments he happens to be playing in at any given point in time. You CANNOT compare that to a KeSPA player who has fifty other priorities and isn't used to the stresses of flying around the world right before a big game or playing in front of a foreign audience.
Note if you will how well Polt and MC - globe trotters themselves - match up against him, while players like Maru and Zest get blown right out.
Extremely disappointing to see Korean starleagues held in such low regard.
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
"caters to fan favorites"
Puts herO above Zest & Rain & soO, polt before taeja, byul being on the list at all A good solid lack of bias there I see.
herO v Zest is close but herO deserves the higher rank:
Zest won 1 GSL; herO won 1 SSL - even Zest won IEM Katowice 2015; herO won 3 IEMs - advantage herO Zest and herO each won 1 Kespa Cup - even Zest tied herO for most Proleague wins in 2015; herO tied for most Proleague wins in 2014 & 2015 - advantage herO Zest won GSL Global Tourney and IesF 2014; herO won Shoutcraft 2014 - advantage Zest Zest 2nd IEM Toronto 2014; herO 2nd IEM Katowice 2014 & Kespa Cup 2014 - advantage herO Zest no 2013 results; herO Code S Ro32 Season 3 – basically even Zest 2014 Code S Ro4 and Ro8; herO Code S Ro8 and Ro16 – advantage Zest Zest 2015 Code S Ro8 and 2 SSL Ro8s; herO Code S Ro4, 2 Code S Ro16, SSL Ro4 and Ro16 – advantage herO
The only places where Zest can be said to have an advantage over herO is in minor tournament wins (GSL Global Tourney/Shoutcraft) and in 2014 GSL. herO did better in IEMs, Proleague, 2nd Places and 2015 GSL and SSL. It actually isn't that close, herO did objectively better overall.
Rain was worse than both herO and Zest, not accomplishing much other than a GSL Win, Hot6 win and a 2nd place OSL (which is obviously very impressive but it doesn’t compare to the results of hero and Zest posted above).
soO never won a Korean individual league so he is below herO, Zest and Rain. Getting 4 2nd places in GSL is obviously very good, but the top players win tournaments. soO only won Kespa cup and did poorly in 2015 outside of Kespa Cup.
I have Byul ranked 12, which isn’t particularly high and is certainly justified by his 3 2nd place finishes in GSL and SSL after Zerg was nerfed. Byul also peaked at the end of Heart of the Swarm which should be taken into account – the best players get better as the game goes on.
Polt and Taeja are both at the bottom and really don’t even deserve to be mentioned next to the other players on the list. Polt gets the edge because he actually accomplished something in 2015 whereas Taeja faded into oblivion, but honestly they’re not good enough to argue about who’s better.
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
Appreciate the work put into this - that being said, have to agree with a lot of the complaints we're hearing in this thread - Taeja is too high, and sOs.
HSC is not way equivalent to a Blizzcon. The winner of Blizzcon is the champion of the year - based on that sOs should at least be top 5
On March 18 2016 11:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: You two again
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
Who do you think deserves #1 and why?
It doesn't really matter. You saying "... winning the most difficult tournament" when sOs did in fact not win a korean starleague and then place him at number one simply made me laugh. No, Blizzcon is not the hardest tournament to win. I would have to think a lot about my actual list though, maybe i do that in the next few days.
On March 18 2016 11:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: You two again
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
Who do you think deserves #1 and why?
It doesn't really matter. You saying "... winning the most difficult tournament" when sOs did in fact not win a korean starleague and then place him at number one simply made me laugh. No, Blizzcon is not the hardest tournament to win. I would have to think a lot about my actual list though, maybe i do that in the next few days.
Easy to throw eggs when you stand for nothing. Come back when you actually have an argument as to who deserves #1
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
You come across like he's personally wronged you in some way. His list is his and his alone. And never purported to be the all-encompassing, bible of rankings that we all must adhere too. He's done far more research than any of us, and these rankings are great for community discussion and at the very least, thought provoking.
The problem is that his list is not a random you see on reddit, its on TL, the most prestigious sc2 website, on the Featured news (not general discussion) Granted it should nto be taken like the bible, btu it should be somewhat respectable, unbias and logical.
If he made a lot of researchs, he would not have written such a garbage top 15. When you make a top list that thousands will see, you got to be professional and unbias.
He didnt cared at all about PL, probaly the most important league/tournament for koreans (with GSL), otherwise Life would not be #1.
Ask the majority of people if they would put sOs in their top 5, the vast majority would say yes, probaly in their top 3, probably #1 even.
Ask most people if they would put Taeja (even though I love him) above Inno, above sOs, above Zest even, most people would say no.
The fact that a writer like stuchiu made a list that would be read by thousands and didnt even care to do it well and without bias is what makes me disappointed.
If he had put Life #1, inno #2, sOs#3, i woudl have disagree, but it would make at least mroee sense. Now thats just bullshit
I really shouldn't feed the troll, but here we go:
You say Life shouldn't be number one because of his PL results (which you say is about the same lvl of importance as gsl). If that's your argument, why should sOs be number one (no most people would definitely not say that sOs should be number one) when he pretty much did the same in GSL? Where is your "consistency" here? It's also arguable that proleague results should have the same meaning as starleague results, but sure i simply took that as a given here (i agree that PL is important though) Stuchiu isn't biased, he simply chose priorities and made a list based on that. You can disagree with his method (i do so too to some extent) but all you really do is flame him for no apparent reason. If anything you are pretty "biased".
because if we follow that logic, then sOs was stronger in blizzcon than Life (not by a lot granted, but 2 wins>1 win.
On top of that, his win vs herO in IEM 100 000$ is really similar to a blizzcon, teh caliber there was really high and a winner takes all has soo much pressure. Because of that, hes ahead of Life. But the top 3 between Inno, life and sOs is debatable, the fact that sOs is not even in top 5 is unacceptable. And the fact that he didnt cared about PL is even more pathetic from a TL writer.
But hey, call me troll if you want, just try to have better arguments at least
On March 18 2016 11:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: You two again
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
Who do you think deserves #1 and why?
It doesn't really matter. You saying "... winning the most difficult tournament" when sOs did in fact not win a korean starleague and then place him at number one simply made me laugh. No, Blizzcon is not the hardest tournament to win. I would have to think a lot about my actual list though, maybe i do that in the next few days.
actually, you are the one who sounds like a troll. Contesting every one that doesnt like stuchiu's feet and bringing aboslutely 0 argument......
On March 18 2016 11:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: You two again
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
Who do you think deserves #1 and why?
It doesn't really matter. You saying "... winning the most difficult tournament" when sOs did in fact not win a korean starleague and then place him at number one simply made me laugh. No, Blizzcon is not the hardest tournament to win. I would have to think a lot about my actual list though, maybe i do that in the next few days.
Easy to throw eggs when you stand for nothing. Come back when you actually have an argument as to who deserves #1
I have an argument why sOs doesn't deserve number one, especially considering your reasoning. Life should be a good number one though, won starleagues, won weekend tournaments. Sure he did only okayish in PL but sOs did only ok (at best) in korean starleagues, which is arguably more important than PL. I don't see why me making a list is mandatory for arguing about yours. It simply isn't.
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
You come across like he's personally wronged you in some way. His list is his and his alone. And never purported to be the all-encompassing, bible of rankings that we all must adhere too. He's done far more research than any of us, and these rankings are great for community discussion and at the very least, thought provoking.
The problem is that his list is not a random you see on reddit, its on TL, the most prestigious sc2 website, on the Featured news (not general discussion) Granted it should nto be taken like the bible, btu it should be somewhat respectable, unbias and logical.
If he made a lot of researchs, he would not have written such a garbage top 15. When you make a top list that thousands will see, you got to be professional and unbias.
He didnt cared at all about PL, probaly the most important league/tournament for koreans (with GSL), otherwise Life would not be #1.
Ask the majority of people if they would put sOs in their top 5, the vast majority would say yes, probaly in their top 3, probably #1 even.
Ask most people if they would put Taeja (even though I love him) above Inno, above sOs, above Zest even, most people would say no.
The fact that a writer like stuchiu made a list that would be read by thousands and didnt even care to do it well and without bias is what makes me disappointed.
If he had put Life #1, inno #2, sOs#3, i woudl have disagree, but it would make at least mroee sense. Now thats just bullshit
I really shouldn't feed the troll, but here we go:
You say Life shouldn't be number one because of his PL results (which you say is about the same lvl of importance as gsl). If that's your argument, why should sOs be number one (no most people would definitely not say that sOs should be number one) when he pretty much did the same in GSL? Where is your "consistency" here? It's also arguable that proleague results should have the same meaning as starleague results, but sure i simply took that as a given here (i agree that PL is important though) Stuchiu isn't biased, he simply chose priorities and made a list based on that. You can disagree with his method (i do so too to some extent) but all you really do is flame him for no apparent reason. If anything you are pretty "biased".
because if we follow that logic, then sOs was stronger in blizzcon than Life (not by a lot granted, but 2 wins>1 win.
On top of that, his win vs herO in IEM 100 000$ is really similar to a blizzcon, teh caliber there was really high and a winner takes all has soo much pressure. Because of that, hes ahead of Life. But the top 3 between Inno, life and sOs is debatable, the fact that sOs is not even in top 5 is unacceptable. And the fact that he didnt cared about PL is even more pathetic from a TL writer.
But hey, call me troll if you want, just try to have better arguments at least
Blizzcon simply isn't that impressive to begin with, sure Blizzcon is Blizzard's way of building hype even for the casual fan, but objectively it isn't nearly as competetive as any korean starleague. HerO, Polt, Bomber and JD to win Blizzcon 2013? That's comparable to making the ro8 in GSL tbh. Sure, for the casual viewer it looks massive because all the attention is there, for the competition itself it's not that special. sOs doesn't belong in the top 3. (i agree that PL should count for something, that doesn't help sOs in this context though)
On March 18 2016 11:24 The_Red_Viper wrote: You two again
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
How can you write something like that and then put sOs at number one? Your "real top 15" list isn't all that good tbh
Who do you think deserves #1 and why?
It doesn't really matter. You saying "... winning the most difficult tournament" when sOs did in fact not win a korean starleague and then place him at number one simply made me laugh. No, Blizzcon is not the hardest tournament to win. I would have to think a lot about my actual list though, maybe i do that in the next few days.
actually, you are the one who sounds like a troll. Contesting every one that doesnt like stuchiu's feet and bringing aboslutely 0 argument......
I am "contesting" two, two guys who made sure to shit on stuchiu in every single thread of this article series. Zero argument? ok. At this point i wouldn't be surprised if you actually are the same person, a mod should maybe check this.
sos is overrated. His playstyle has been bad and he is bound to overcheese in longer tournaments when he hits multiple strong opponentsin a row. That's why he hasn't won something like a GSL.
On March 18 2016 11:27 Ensiferum8 wrote: somehow, inno being bad when terrans are insanely UP is why hes not higher, but Life, a zerg that invisible for 8 months, than go on rampage, then disappear for another 6 months, on top of being garbage in PL is fine at being #1?
If at least stuchiu was consistent in his bullshit.....
You come across like he's personally wronged you in some way. His list is his and his alone. And never purported to be the all-encompassing, bible of rankings that we all must adhere too. He's done far more research than any of us, and these rankings are great for community discussion and at the very least, thought provoking.
The problem is that his list is not a random you see on reddit, its on TL, the most prestigious sc2 website, on the Featured news (not general discussion) Granted it should nto be taken like the bible, btu it should be somewhat respectable, unbias and logical.
If he made a lot of researchs, he would not have written such a garbage top 15. When you make a top list that thousands will see, you got to be professional and unbias.
He didnt cared at all about PL, probaly the most important league/tournament for koreans (with GSL), otherwise Life would not be #1.
Ask the majority of people if they would put sOs in their top 5, the vast majority would say yes, probaly in their top 3, probably #1 even.
Ask most people if they would put Taeja (even though I love him) above Inno, above sOs, above Zest even, most people would say no.
The fact that a writer like stuchiu made a list that would be read by thousands and didnt even care to do it well and without bias is what makes me disappointed.
If he had put Life #1, inno #2, sOs#3, i woudl have disagree, but it would make at least mroee sense. Now thats just bullshit
I really shouldn't feed the troll, but here we go:
You say Life shouldn't be number one because of his PL results (which you say is about the same lvl of importance as gsl). If that's your argument, why should sOs be number one (no most people would definitely not say that sOs should be number one) when he pretty much did the same in GSL? Where is your "consistency" here? It's also arguable that proleague results should have the same meaning as starleague results, but sure i simply took that as a given here (i agree that PL is important though) Stuchiu isn't biased, he simply chose priorities and made a list based on that. You can disagree with his method (i do so too to some extent) but all you really do is flame him for no apparent reason. If anything you are pretty "biased".
because if we follow that logic, then sOs was stronger in blizzcon than Life (not by a lot granted, but 2 wins>1 win.
On top of that, his win vs herO in IEM 100 000$ is really similar to a blizzcon, teh caliber there was really high and a winner takes all has soo much pressure. Because of that, hes ahead of Life. But the top 3 between Inno, life and sOs is debatable, the fact that sOs is not even in top 5 is unacceptable. And the fact that he didnt cared about PL is even more pathetic from a TL writer.
But hey, call me troll if you want, just try to have better arguments at least
I like that you rate sOs IEM win so high but at the same time TaeJas IEMs and DHs so low. Because the prize money at sOs IEM was higher? sOs opponents were probably easier then TaeJas opponents at IEM Shenzhen, DH winter or DH bucharest.
I get where peeps are coming from regarding Taeja. However Taeja made a calculated choice to forego the Korean stuff in favor of international events & you'd have to agree he made the right choice, based on how well he did. But I'd have to think that while he was in his prime, he would've done pretty good in the GSL. Just look at present day with LOTV, Taeja is nowhere near his peak skill, & he's finally playing in the GSL & he's what, in the top 16 right now? I think sometimes he doesnt get the respect that he deserves.
wow the amount of bad argumentation in here is really tempting ot get into the discussion but i rather advise the people (/person?) who think(s) the list doesnt make sense to check the criteria instead of throwing around what should be considered more important in their OPINION. damn you, internet !
im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
good example for what i'm talking about in my previous post
I have an argument why sOs doesn't deserve number one, especially considering your reasoning. Life should be a good number one though, won starleagues, won weekend tournaments. Sure he did only okayish in PL but sOs did only ok (at best) in korean starleagues, which is arguably more important than PL. I don't see why me making a list is mandatory for arguing about yours. It simply isn't.
Ok I’ll argue sOs vs Life:
sOs won 2 Blizzcons; Life won 1 – advantage sOs Life won 1 GSL; sOs won none – advantage Life Life won IEM Taipei and IEM New York; sOs won IEM Katowice – even Life did poorly in Proleague; sOs tied for first in Proleague wins 2014, superb 2015 Proleague with 2 all kills – advantage sOs Life won 2013 MLG Championship & Dream Hack Bucharest; sOs won Hot6 Cup & 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena – advantage sOs Life 2nd Place Blizzcon, 2x 2nd place DreamHack Winter; sOs 2nd 2013 WCS Season 1, 2nd Red Bull BattleGrounds – advantage Life 2013 GSL – Life Ro16, Ro32; sOs Ro4, Ro32, Ro16 - advantage sOs 2014 GSL – Life Ro4, Ro16; sOs Ro8, Ro32, Ro16 – even 2015 GSL/SSL – Life GSL Ro16, Ro32, SSL Ro4, Ro8, Ro16; sOs GSL Ro4, Ro16, SSL Ro24, Ro 16 – advantage Life
This one is really close, they both did remarkably well in nearly all tournaments. The big difference is that Life won a Korean individual league and sOs did not, and sOs was one of the best Proleague players for 2 years in a row while Life was a total dud in Proleauge. Life’s GSL win is more impressive than sOs’s Proleague performance, but only marginally, so it really comes down to whether sOs’s 2nd Blizzcon Championship is enough to put sOs on top. You can debate the relative weight of Blizzcon vs a GSL. To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon. 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than 2014 Blizzcon because top Koreans were adequately represented, and the "foreign" Koreans in 2013 were still in their prime compared to a year later. There are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all the players are giving it their best.
But ultimately you have to acknowledge that these 2 players came head to head in the final championship match of Heart of the Swarm, with the claim to being the greatest Heart of the Swarm player at stake. And sOs won. Given how close they were up to this tournament, sOs’s head to head win against Life puts him ahead at #1.
On March 18 2016 13:19 billynasty wrote: I get where peeps are coming from regarding Taeja. However Taeja made a calculated choice to forego the Korean stuff in favor of international events & you'd have to agree he made the right choice, based on how well he did. But I'd have to think that while he was in his prime, he would've done pretty good in the GSL. Just look at present day with LOTV, Taeja is nowhere near his peak skill, & he's finally playing in the GSL & he's what, in the top 16 right now? I think sometimes he doesnt get the respect that he deserves.
Taeja has (or had, I haven't seen him recently) an extreme advantage over anyone else in the lategame, his expansion patterns and gameflow are top tier. However in the later rounds of GSL there are usually a few games out of 7 decided by BO wins and metagaming, and having a team and coach to help you prepare is very useful to help snatch those key maps.
Taeja's won almost all the games I've seen him play where both players open standard, I'd say he's more skilled than Life but Life is more cunning.
Of course, as a fan of sOs I disagree with putting him on rank 7, that seems odd ... he is certainly not number 1, as his victories were quite specific, but including his miracles in proleague, he would belong to number ~3. Life is number 1 and I like it quite a lot. Number 2 probably InnoVatioN? So a proper ranking would be:
1. Life 2. INnoVation 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. Maru / herO / TaeJa?
Normally I defend Taeja and try to keep an open mind when it comes to factoring in foreign events. Taeja is easily #3 GOAT if you include WoL since it further adds to his longevity, he had great GSL runs during that time, and he had a couple more notable premiere results under his belt.
In HotS however, I was surprised to find Taeja would be top 5 let alone #2. For 2013-2014, Taeja made up for no good Korean showings by simply doing outstanding abroad. But for 2015, he did just about nothing after making the ro32 for GSL and SSL in s1. To me that's a big of a hole to cover when he's competing against others in the top 10, where most of that level did well not just in Korea but made waves for each year of HotS. Personally, I give Taeja the benefit of the doubt and think he could have done great in the GSL had he gone home in HotS. Then again, the benefit of the doubt only carries you so far. Taeja never actually made good on that assumption.
Also, I'm not sure if SPL is given much or any weight here but it really should be notable given not just the level of competition but also because most Koreans on Kespa teams are forced into having that as their priority over foreign events.
==
IMO:
15. Bomber 14. ByuL 13. Soulkey 12. Polt 11. Classic 10. PartinG 9. Rain 8. herO 7. Taeja 6. soO 5. Maru 4. sOs 3. Zest 2. Bogus 1. Life
To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon
GSL has the best Korean players that are playing in Korea at that moment in time. Blizzcon is a collection of champions of the past year, which is usually not an accurate representation of the best players in the world at that moment in time. The WCS split and the rich-get-richer weekend tournaments fuel this even further. GSL has more rounds, and the additional group stages make sure you have to face even more opponents. (more rounds = more skill needed = harder) GSL lasts longer, so you have to be good for a long period of time to stand a chance at winning it, while Blizzcon is a weekend tournament and everything can happen once you are there, just depending on your form. GSL gives players time to prepare for each opponent. This may not make it necessarily harder to win (since both players prepare), but it makes it so that the showcased skill-level in each match is much higher.
Getting to blizzcon is hard, no denying. But you cannot rate players based on their tournament success and then value blizzcon as the tournament itself plus the qualification process, since you already valued the qualification process. Blizzcon is just that, that one 4-round tournament.
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments
He won 2. One against soO and one against ByuL. Lost to Soulkey. Beat sOs for the WCS season finals.
Dat sneaky edit... even made it into the quote... :D
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments
I have an argument why sOs doesn't deserve number one, especially considering your reasoning. Life should be a good number one though, won starleagues, won weekend tournaments. Sure he did only okayish in PL but sOs did only ok (at best) in korean starleagues, which is arguably more important than PL. I don't see why me making a list is mandatory for arguing about yours. It simply isn't.
Ok I’ll argue sOs vs Life:
sOs won 2 Blizzcons; Life won 1 – advantage sOs Life won 1 GSL; sOs won none – advantage Life Life won IEM Taipei and IEM New York; sOs won IEM Katowice – even Life did poorly in Proleague; sOs tied for first in Proleague wins 2014, superb 2015 Proleague with 2 all kills – advantage sOs Life won 2013 MLG Championship & Dream Hack Bucharest; sOs won Hot6 Cup & 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena – advantage sOs Life 2nd Place Blizzcon, 2x 2nd place DreamHack Winter; sOs 2nd 2013 WCS Season 1, 2nd Red Bull BattleGrounds – advantage Life 2013 GSL – Life Ro16, Ro32; sOs Ro4, Ro32, Ro16 - advantage sOs 2014 GSL – Life Ro4, Ro16; sOs Ro8, Ro32, Ro16 – even 2015 GSL/SSL – Life GSL Ro16, Ro32, SSL Ro4, Ro8, Ro16; sOs GSL Ro4, Ro16, SSL Ro24, Ro 16 – advantage Life
This one is really close, they both did remarkably well in nearly all tournaments. The big difference is that Life won a Korean individual league and sOs did not, and sOs was one of the best Proleague players for 2 years in a row while Life was a total dud in Proleauge. Life’s GSL win is more impressive than sOs’s Proleague performance, but only marginally, so it really comes down to whether sOs’s 2nd Blizzcon Championship is enough to put sOs on top. You can debate the relative weight of Blizzcon vs a GSL. To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon. 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than 2014 Blizzcon because top Koreans were adequately represented, and the "foreign" Koreans in 2013 were still in their prime compared to a year later. There are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all the players are giving it their best.
But ultimately you have to acknowledge that these 2 players came head to head in the final championship match of Heart of the Swarm, with the claim to being the greatest Heart of the Swarm player at stake. And sOs won. Given how close they were up to this tournament, sOs’s head to head win against Life puts him ahead at #1.
Well, life's teamleague performances that apparently does not seem to factor in this analysis may make this comparison less close.
To say GSL is harder really isn’t fair. For a player in Korea, getting to the Ro16 of GSL was easier than getting to the Ro16 of Blizzcon
GSL has the best Korean players that are playing in Korea at that moment in time. Blizzcon is a collection of champions of the past year, which is usually not an accurate representation of the best players in the world at that moment in time. The WCS split and the rich-get-richer weekend tournaments fuel this even further. GSL has more rounds, and the additional group stages make sure you have to face even more opponents. (more rounds = more skill needed = harder) GSL lasts longer, so you have to be good for a long period of time to stand a chance at winning it, while Blizzcon is a weekend tournament and everything can happen once you are there, just depending on your form. GSL gives players time to prepare for each opponent. This may not make it necessarily harder to win (since both players prepare), but it makes it so that the showcased skill-level in each match is much higher.
Getting to blizzcon is hard, no denying. But you cannot rate players based on their tournament success and then value blizzcon as the tournament itself plus the qualification process, since you already valued the qualification process. Blizzcon is just that, that one 4-round tournament.
Yes, GSL takes longer, which is exactly why Blizzcon is a different kind of tournament where improvisational skills and constant ways to surprise your opponent work in Blizzcon. Plus, Blizzcon is a super large stage where only the one with heaviest balls do not falter. I mean classic lost of Life's ling rush. Also, funny enough, it's at blizzcon where we see the most weird and risky/weird builds than at gsl where you have more time to prepare. Maybe Blizzcon actually does have more prestige than gsl where players use their hidden cards that they have been saving more a year.
Sorry about the babbling. I guess the point I want to make is that GSL is not really more prestigeous than Blizzcon. They are different kinds of tournaments plus Blizzcon has more hype and bigger stage with only no coach (or very few instances) being there to soothe the player that makes blizzcon truer test to a player's champion qualities.
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments
On March 18 2016 13:31 Riner1212 wrote: im sorry to say life is not number 1. you have to consider that that innovation left acer to move back to korea and he won two gsls. the reason he came back was because he wanted to improve. life is no way number 1. this article is horribly biased.
won 2 gsl but no blizzcons and not many international tournaments
Nice edit. Was about to call you out
i always forget about the soo 1
As a rule of thumb when counting GSL championships: If you are not sure about the number and there is no win over soO in it yet, just add 1 more title.
It's happened on TL many times that people cry out that Taeja is ranked too high, while the writer claims to have used an objective metric. IMO this pattern mostly boils down to a simple fact: the Premier tournament list in TL is too large. A large fraction of tournaments in the list look tier 2 at best compared to an OSL or a GSL. Until the Premiers get sorted out properly, this will just happen again and again.
I have to agree that sOs seems too high and Taeja too low. But to be honest, if Taeja gets far in this GSL, then I think it won't be because he's improved a ton, but he'll just be reminding us how good he is. To that end, he has an opportunity to add a lot of credibility to this article, even if it's about HoTS.
On March 18 2016 15:06 calh wrote: It's happened on TL many times that people cry out that Taeja is ranked too high, while the writer claims to have used an objective metric. IMO this pattern mostly boils down to a simple fact: the Premier tournament list in TL is too large. A large fraction of tournaments in the list look tier 2 at best compared to an OSL or a GSL. Until the Premiers get sorted out properly, this will just happen again and again.
stuchiu has been very open about saying he does value tournaments differently based on the players participating and other factors. Apart from the Taeja case, I think it is pretty clear that good GSL/OSL runs are one of the main criteria. All the players with weaker/no GSL stats except for sOs and Taeja that made the list are found at the bottom of those top 15.
On March 18 2016 15:11 Soulshanked wrote: Am I missing something or is INnoVation on this list twice? He is listed at 9th and than again at 3rd.
The #9 is the Greatest of all time list. Including WoL.
On March 18 2016 15:15 TheDougler wrote: I have to agree that sOs seems too high and Taeja too low. But to be honest, if Taeja gets far in this GSL, then I think it won't be because he's improved a ton, but he'll just be reminding us how good he is. To that end, he has an opportunity to add a lot of credibility to this article, even if it's about HoTS.
I think you meant sOs too low and Taeja too high? Unless you think Taeja should be GOAT and sOs off the list or something crazy
I am actually not sure if Life should be number one after thinking about it a little bit. In general his korean starleague results aren't THAT impressive either tbh. (still better than sOs though ) Really hard to make such a list hehe, i guess i have to come up with some kind of point based system, i think that is the fairest solution overall (i don't like to look at the paths each player had to go through tournaments and value his opponents 'manually' because there are simply too many variables to get that right imo) If we simply assume that easier/harder opponents in the same region balance each other out somewhat during multiple tournaments, the result itself (ro16/ro8/whatever) is good enough and probably more accurate too?!
Obviously the point system is subjective though, mine will be biased towards korean starleagues/tournaments i feel like, haha.
On March 18 2016 16:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am actually not sure if Life should be number one after thinking about it a little bit. In general his korean starleague results aren't THAT impressive either tbh. (still better than sOs though ) Really hard to make such a list hehe, i guess i have to come up with some kind of point based system, i think that is the fairest solution overall (i don't like to look at the paths each player had to go through tournaments and value his opponents 'manually' because there are simply too many variables to get that right imo) If we simply assume that easier/harder opponents in the same region balance each other out somewhat during multiple tournaments, the result itself (ro16/ro8/whatever) is good enough and probably more accurate too?!
Obviously the point system is subjective though, mine will be biased towards korean starleagues/tournaments i feel like, haha.
On March 18 2016 16:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am actually not sure if Life should be number one after thinking about it a little bit. In general his korean starleague results aren't THAT impressive either tbh. (still better than sOs though ) Really hard to make such a list hehe, i guess i have to come up with some kind of point based system, i think that is the fairest solution overall (i don't like to look at the paths each player had to go through tournaments and value his opponents 'manually' because there are simply too many variables to get that right imo) If we simply assume that easier/harder opponents in the same region balance each other out somewhat during multiple tournaments, the result itself (ro16/ro8/whatever) is good enough and probably more accurate too?!
Obviously the point system is subjective though, mine will be biased towards korean starleagues/tournaments i feel like, haha.
Interesting ... somehow, you are giving credit to Stuchiu's ranking :-) But anyway, three world championship titles in HotS, nobody can convince me that sOs should not be on the 3rd place behind Life and Bogus.
guys, PL is not counter for a reason. In PL you get to play to your strenghts and avoid weakness. In 2015, Maru had a record of 27-16 and was placed 2nd. That info alone does not tell us anything about his strenght. Why? Because he was mostly used as a TvP sniper. His TvZ was at 40% :\
On March 18 2016 12:21 pure.Wasted wrote: For Taeja nothing is more important than whatever weekend tournaments he happens to be playing in at any given point in time. You CANNOT compare that to a KeSPA player who has fifty other priorities and isn't used to the stresses of flying around the world right before a big game or playing in front of a foreign audience.
Note if you will how well Polt and MC - globe trotters themselves - match up against him, while players like Maru and Zest get blown right out.
Extremely disappointing to see Korean starleagues held in such low regard.
who gives a rats ass about priorities? did those KeSPA players come to a tournament to win? YES. Did they? NO. Who usually did? Life & Taeja. Do Korean Leagues matter? YES. Why? Because the competition is tough. So we base the strenght of a title win by the toughness of the competiton? YES. Well thats what Stuchiu did. Every GSL run is not equal nor is every Premier tournament run also.
these are Taejas "Tier 1" runs: (hint: check out the notable competition. its mostly top Korean pros at the time)
GSL Season 4 2012 - Top 4 - Mvp, loss to Rain, DRG, Polt, Leenock, loss to Life GSL Season 1 2013 - Top 4 - loss to INnoVation, Bomber, DRG, Soulkey, loss to RorO WCS NA Season 2 2013 - Top 4 - Polt, aLive, loss to Polt WCS Season 2 Finals 2013 - Top 4 - INnoVation, duckdeok, Rain, loss to Bomber DH Bucharest 2013 - 1st - YugiOh, sOs, Life, INnoVation DH Winter 2013 - 1st - INnoVation, sOs, ForGG, HerO, MMA, Life, Life again IEM WC 2014 - Top 4 - StarDust, Life, lost to sOs IEM Shenzhen 2014 - 1st - MMA, Life, Zest, Jaedong, Solar IEM Toronto 2014 - Top 4 - Zest, Bunny, viOLet, loss to Flash Blizzcon 2014 - Top 4 - soO, INnoVation, loss to Life DH Winter 2014 - 3rd - San, Bunny, loss to Leenock, loss to Life, San, Polt, Jjakji, loss to Life
btw Tajea is a 2 times GSL top 4 finisher. Both times he lost to the eventual champion :O
On March 18 2016 16:31 The_Red_Viper wrote: I am actually not sure if Life should be number one after thinking about it a little bit. In general his korean starleague results aren't THAT impressive either tbh. (still better than sOs though ) Really hard to make such a list hehe, i guess i have to come up with some kind of point based system, i think that is the fairest solution overall (i don't like to look at the paths each player had to go through tournaments and value his opponents 'manually' because there are simply too many variables to get that right imo) If we simply assume that easier/harder opponents in the same region balance each other out somewhat during multiple tournaments, the result itself (ro16/ro8/whatever) is good enough and probably more accurate too?!
Obviously the point system is subjective though, mine will be biased towards korean starleagues/tournaments i feel like, haha.
Might have to update this at some point, it ends somewhere around the GSL Season 1 2015...
Huh that is pretty cool and kinda like what i thought of
I think only doing ro4 or better is not optimal though tbh, a little bit more would be better (but also more work^^) Thx for posting that though! ps: including proleague somehow would be kinda important too imo
On March 18 2016 17:30 dankobanana wrote: guys, PL is not counter for a reason. In PL you get to play to your strenghts and avoid weakness. In 2015, Maru had a record of 27-16 and was placed 2nd. That info alone does not tell us anything about his strenght. Why? Because he was mostly used as a TvP sniper. His TvZ was at 40% :\
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
Also, I am not sure what you think about the TvP sniper. I always though that both teams select their players for a map and then KeSPA gives them result of their selection. So you can expect a Protoss player on the map, but they can expect Maru on that map, so you cannot use him as a PvT sniper, or am I incorrect?
The pictures chosen for this article is amazing. Would have been better if Taeja is in 4th place or 3rd place, but I'm happy with this. Great job stuchiu
On March 18 2016 17:30 dankobanana wrote: guys, PL is not counter for a reason. In PL you get to play to your strenghts and avoid weakness. In 2015, Maru had a record of 27-16 and was placed 2nd. That info alone does not tell us anything about his strenght. Why? Because he was mostly used as a TvP sniper. His TvZ was at 40% :\
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
Also, I am not sure what you think about the TvP sniper. I always though that both teams select their players for a map and then KeSPA gives them result of their selection. So you can expect a Protoss player on the map, but they can expect Maru on that map, so you cannot use him as a PvT sniper, or am I incorrect?
They could, but they'd risk making the wrong choice and getting a racial disadvantage (e.g.: the best counter to Maru was his meh TvZ, so you choose a Zerg, but then you run into PvZ sniper Trap).
Although a bunch of his games are in all-kill format where of course, these rules don't apply.
On March 18 2016 18:34 NinjaToss wrote: The pictures chosen for this article is amazing. Would have been better if Taeja is in 4th place or 3rd place, but I'm happy with this. Great job stuchiu
Innovation looks like human, that's breaking all the stereotypes about him being a robot.
Taeja looks like proper nerd, even though I don't like his position I approve the picture
The picture of Life made me said There's a viewer counter, 125k viewers So many viewbots back then, now we cannot afford them
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
so, Maru has won 2 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL right? Tajea has won 11 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL. Where is the argument that Marus record is better? :\
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
so, Maru has won 2 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL right? Tajea has won 11 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL. Where is the argument that Marus record is better? :\
This is HotS ranking, Taeja didn't reach RO4 in HotS.
On March 18 2016 17:30 dankobanana wrote: guys, PL is not counter for a reason. In PL you get to play to your strenghts and avoid weakness. In 2015, Maru had a record of 27-16 and was placed 2nd. That info alone does not tell us anything about his strenght. Why? Because he was mostly used as a TvP sniper. His TvZ was at 40% :\
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
Also, I am not sure what you think about the TvP sniper. I always though that both teams select their players for a map and then KeSPA gives them result of their selection. So you can expect a Protoss player on the map, but they can expect Maru on that map, so you cannot use him as a PvT sniper, or am I incorrect?
They could, but they'd risk making the wrong choice and getting a racial disadvantage (e.g.: the best counter to Maru was his meh TvZ, so you choose a Zerg, but then you run into PvZ sniper Trap).
Although a bunch of his games are in all-kill format where of course, these rules don't apply.
If Maru had meh TvZ early-mid 2015, literally every terran had meh TvZ.
Yes, this applies to Dream. No, his sets against Life don't automatically make him a TvZ god, just like Maru's sets against Life don't automatically make him a TvZ near-god.
Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
How the hell do you ridicule him for his list and the criteria he used and then leave Life out of the top 5 of your ranking. That is ridiculous. Leaving Life out of the top 3 is stupid enough but the top 5? LOL
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
if you can't handle subjective player ranking articles then you shouldn't be reading sports journalism anyway. for most people this is just a fun way to spark debate, if you're losing your mind and insulting people over it you should just avoid posting
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
so, Maru has won 2 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL right? Tajea has won 11 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL. Where is the argument that Marus record is better? :\
Maru won two korean starleagues and finished a total of 8 times at least in the ro8. That alone is imo way more impressive than Taeja's 8 (in hots) 'premier' (lol at three hsc) title wins. It's actually a lot more impressive. Then add the proleague record for Maru and the high finishes in weekend tournaments and he is imo clearly above Taeja in Hots. I actually think Maru might be a contender for first place when i look at his results tbh.
On March 18 2016 17:30 dankobanana wrote: guys, PL is not counter for a reason. In PL you get to play to your strenghts and avoid weakness. In 2015, Maru had a record of 27-16 and was placed 2nd. That info alone does not tell us anything about his strenght. Why? Because he was mostly used as a TvP sniper. His TvZ was at 40% :\
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
Also, I am not sure what you think about the TvP sniper. I always though that both teams select their players for a map and then KeSPA gives them result of their selection. So you can expect a Protoss player on the map, but they can expect Maru on that map, so you cannot use him as a PvT sniper, or am I incorrect?
They could, but they'd risk making the wrong choice and getting a racial disadvantage (e.g.: the best counter to Maru was his meh TvZ, so you choose a Zerg, but then you run into PvZ sniper Trap).
Although a bunch of his games are in all-kill format where of course, these rules don't apply.
If Maru had meh TvZ early-mid 2015, literally every terran had meh TvZ.
Yes, this applies to Dream. No, his sets against Life don't automatically make him a TvZ god, just like Maru's sets against Life don't automatically make him a TvZ near-god.
It was his worst matchup in 2015. His biggest weakness in Proleague. And he didn't look inspiring playing it either, so I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here. Literally the only thing Maru was more meh at than handling TvZ was handling good mech Terrans.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
How the hell do you ridicule him for his list and the criteria he used and then leave Life out of the top 5 of your ranking. That is ridiculous. Leaving Life out of the top 3 is stupid enough but the top 5? LOL
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
if you can't handle subjective player ranking articles then you shouldn't be reading sports journalism anyway. for most people this is just a fun way to spark debate, if you're losing your mind and insulting people over it you should just avoid posting
First of all I have a right to insult anyone I want, if its not up to TL standards, discipline me or whatever.
As far as Life goes hes been non-existant in 2013, he made ro4 in 14 S1 mostly due his zvz. Then he bum out in ro16 and didn't even make Code S in S3. He was doing great near the end of 14 (won GF and GSL) was probably #1 player during that time of 3-4 months and disappeared again. Thats more than half of HotS lifetime hes been doing horrible.
Uhh, not sure if you were in coma or just blind. Maru in 2015 won S2SL over Dream, finished in top4 in GSL S3, and was second in IEM Teipei. For example he advanced from group over Dark, sure his TvZ was a wreck.
so, Maru has won 2 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL right? Tajea has won 11 Premier Tournaments and was twice top 4 in GSL. Where is the argument that Marus record is better? :\
This is HotS ranking, Taeja didn't reach RO4 in HotS.
I love how that person is comparing 2015 Maru to all time Taeja
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
Relax guys! I am not fighting against Life being no. 1, but Stuchiu did not consider his very weak ZvC match up. He was good when he was playing against People, but I heard, he was not that good against a Computer opponent. He probably even did not finish the HotS campaign, so how can he be the no.1 of HotS?
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
I wouldn't like this either, but this is much closer to what I was expecting
I think it should factor in other big weekenders - MLG, DH Winter, KeSPA Cup and Hot6ix Cup at least. Possibly regular IEMs with particularly strong lineups. To add a bit more definition to the list.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
I wouldn't like this either, but this is much closer to what I was expecting
I think it should factor in other big weekenders - MLG, DH Winter, KeSPA Cup and Hot6ix Cup at least. Possibly regular IEMs with particularly strong lineups. To add a bit more definition to the list.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
I wouldn't like this either, but this is much closer to what I was expecting
I think it should factor in other big weekenders - MLG, DH Winter, KeSPA Cup and Hot6ix Cup at least. Possibly regular IEMs with particularly strong lineups. To add a bit more definition to the list.
Hows proleague for definition?
That aswell. Forgot to mention that xD
Although for Proleague it's a bit harder than for individuals. I guess points for being top 1/top 5/top 10 player rankings?
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
I wouldn't like this either, but this is much closer to what I was expecting
I think it should factor in other big weekenders - MLG, DH Winter, KeSPA Cup and Hot6ix Cup at least. Possibly regular IEMs with particularly strong lineups. To add a bit more definition to the list.
Hows proleague for definition?
That aswell. Forgot to mention that xD
Don't forget Homestory cup! The only tournament, where the players have to show their strength in the most difficult conditions, face to face to the demon of alcohol!
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
I wouldn't like this either, but this is much closer to what I was expecting
I think it should factor in other big weekenders - MLG, DH Winter, KeSPA Cup and Hot6ix Cup at least. Possibly regular IEMs with particularly strong lineups. To add a bit more definition to the list.
Hows proleague for definition?
That aswell. Forgot to mention that xD
Don't forget Homestory cup! The only tournament, where the players have to show their strength in the most difficult conditions, face to face to the demon of alcohol!
The most stacked HSC was the one PartinG won against Flash but even that one might not be good enough. Of course, if we only take tournament wins/top 4s of really high end events, PartinG will never reach a top 15 list in HotS which is unfortunate considering this.
I would have liked INno being #2 at least cause you can't ignore 2 SPL and 1 GSTL (and ACT) : he literally won ALL the team leagues he participated to, each time being an ace player.
As for Taeja, it's always the same old debate of GSL vs Dreamhacks, no need start this again, everybody has made up their opinion at this point...
Never failed to disapoint in a league, neither of it being GSL or WCS NA. But hey, lets make some random DH/IEM 25k Tournaments being "Tier 1" and on the same level then Blizzcon, GSL, SSL and IEM Worldchampionchips for the sake of getting Taeja into the top 10.
At first I was like: oh nice MKP is the only terran to have a positive win record against TaeJa... Then I saw Polt monstruous domination over him. Polt is so good :D
On March 18 2016 21:57 Poopi wrote: At first I was like: oh nice MKP is the only terran to have a positive win record against TaeJa... Then I saw Polt monstruous domination over him. Polt is so good :D
On March 18 2016 21:57 Poopi wrote: At first I was like: oh nice MKP is the only terran to have a positive win record against TaeJa... Then I saw Polt monstruous domination over him. Polt is so good :D
On March 18 2016 22:53 EatingBomber wrote: Very good. Now that this is wrapped up, shall I propose the next topic for stuchiu? The Most Handsome Players of HotS.
Since TL writers are now Certifiably Biased, allow me to preemptively declare the winner:
No no no no!!! Every player, even Parting in China, even Maru's mother, declare, that it is herO.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
What 100K tournaments are you referring to?
Blizzcon is listed seperately so I assume IEM Katowice and the WCS season final thingys. Not where you win 100k for yourself necessarily but where there's a 100k+ prize pool.
All this newfound discussion surrounding the importance (exclusion from this ranking system) of Proleague feels like a watershed moment for me. There was virtually no debate about it until I started writing in detail beginning in Part 1 and continuing through Part 2 about why I thought it was a critical component in evaluating the totality of the best of the best.
Now everyone is mentioning it like common sense stuff, although it's clear many haven't watched enough PL to fully understand the dominant players, trends, meta changes, and pressure cooker that is the best team league in the world (by far).
On March 18 2016 19:17 REyeM wrote: Can't write. Biased as fuck. And you call yourself a "journalist". I mean it's okay to fantasize on your own and to have opinions but why the fuck would anyone want to have this nonsense on their website?
Anyway, if you just put raw numbers and do the math for HotS leagues only it's easy to see what the actual ranking is. God knows which criterias has he used. In my opinions it goes something like 1.) INnoVation 2.) Maru 3.) Zest 4.) soO 5.) sOs etc
So he's biased as fuck, just putting raw numbers in makes it easy to see what the true ranking is, but of course you didn't do that yourself and rather give your biased opinion. What?
He has a link to the criteria he based the list on in the foreword of all 3 parts of this list, so I'm not sure this is a case of him not being able to write over you not being able to read.
I personally wasn't impressed by Life enough to put him top 5, but I wouldn't mind him being #3 just based on numbers.
What 100K tournaments are you referring to?
Blizzcon is listed seperately so I assume IEM Katowice and the WCS season final thingys. Not where you win 100k for yourself necessarily but where there's a 100k+ prize pool.
Thanks! Didn't realize the 2013 WCS Season Finals had $150,000 prize pools.
Come on, guys, you can't be serious about HerO being more handsome than herO! When you ask any KESPA player, they will agree that herO is number 1. But you need to ask primarily Korean ladies. And even Maru's mother is saying, how handsome is herO.
On March 19 2016 01:27 Alarak89 wrote: IMO the greatest HotS player is between sOs and Innovation, Life is no.3. The rest of the HotS players do not qualify for top 3.
Category InnovationsOsAdvantage Blizzcon Championships 0 2 sOs GSL Championships 2 0 Innovation IEM 1 - Gamescome 1 - Katowice sOs Proleague 72% Winrate 2015 Tied Most Wins 2014; 61% winrate, 2 all kills 2015 sOs WCS Season Championship 1 0 Innovation 2nd Places GSL 2013; Dreamhack Bucharest 2013 2013 WCS Season 1; Red Bull Battlegrounds NY 2013 Even Minor Tournament Championships None 2015 MSI; 2014 Hot6 Cup sOs 2013 GSL Top 4, Top 16; Top 4, Top 32, Top 16 Even 2014 GSL Top 16; Top 8, Top 32, Top 16 sOs 2015 GSL/SSL SSL: Top 32, Top 32, Top 8 GSL: Top 8, Top 16 SSL: Top 32, Top 16 GSL: Top 4, Top 16 Innovation
The big difference is sOs’s Blizzcons, IEM Katowice and 2014 Proleague vs Innovation’s 2 GSL’s and WCS 2013 Season 1 Championship. Most people are weighting GSLs higher than Blizzcons, so I will give the argument for why Blizzcon should be weighted higher: 1. It is easier for a player in Korea to make it to the Ro16 of GSL than to make it to Blizzcon. Thus, only the best of the best from Korea will make it to Blizzcon. 2. The “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon were still in their prime and defeated all of the GSL Koreans in attendance (except for sOs). 3. 2015 Blizzcon was stacked with the best Koreans due to the double GSL/SSL tournament system in Korea. sOs defeated Parting, Rain, Rogue and Life. Innovation lost in the 2nd round to Life. 4. The pressure of winning on the big global stage is greater than in the comfortable confines of the GSL studio. 5. Money is the most objective measurement of a tournament’s significance, and it can be safely assumed that players will put the most effort into winning the most money.
Even if you weigh Blizzcon and GSL evenly, sOs comes out ahead in other categories. Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague, while sOs tied for most Proleague wins that season. Innovatoin’s other championships are WCS Season 1 2013 and IEM Gamescom, while sOs won IEM Katowice, 2014 Hot6 Cup and MSI Masters. Winning a WCS Season finals is obviously top tier, but winning IEM Katowice and a Hot6 Cup outweighs it. It’s close, maybe even closer than sOs and Life, but I think sOs gets the slight edge.
sOs won 3 of the most stacked tournaments. And Blizzcons were every players ultimate goal, everyone gave their everything to get there and to win Blizzcon. sOs was the best when EVERYONE was playing at their highest possible level TWICE.
So when the competition gets toughest, sOs is toughest of them all. When everyone is playing their best, sOs is the best.
On March 19 2016 01:27 Alarak89 wrote: IMO the greatest HotS player is between sOs and Innovation, Life is no.3. The rest of the HotS players do not qualify for top 3.
Category InnovationsOsAdvantage Blizzcon Championships 0 2 sOs GSL Championships 2 0 Innovation IEM 1 - Gamescome 1 - Katowice sOs Proleague 72% Winrate 2015 Tied Most Wins 2014; 61% winrate, 2 all kills 2015 sOs WCS Season Championship 1 0 Innovation 2nd Places GSL 2013; Dreamhack Bucharest 2013 2013 WCS Season 1; Red Bull Battlegrounds NY 2013 Even Minor Tournament Championships None 2015 MSI; 2014 Hot6 Cup sOs 2013 GSL Top 4, Top 16; Top 4, Top 32, Top 16 Even 2014 GSL Top 16; Top 8, Top 32, Top 16 sOs 2015 GSL/SSL SSL: Top 32, Top 32, Top 8 GSL: Top 8, Top 16 SSL: Top 32, Top 16 GSL: Top 4, Top 16 Innovation
The big difference is sOs’s Blizzcons, IEM Katowice and 2014 Proleague vs Innovation’s 2 GSL’s and WCS 2013 Season 1 Championship. Most people are weighting GSLs higher than Blizzcons, so I will give the argument for why Blizzcon should be weighted higher: 1. It is easier for a player in Korea to make it to the Ro16 of GSL than to make it to Blizzcon. Thus, only the best of the best from Korea will make it to Blizzcon. 2. The “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon were still in their prime and defeated all of the GSL Koreans in attendance (except for sOs). 3. 2015 Blizzcon was stacked with the best Koreans due to the double GSL/SSL tournament system in Korea. sOs defeated Parting, Rain, Rogue and Life. Innovation lost in the 2nd round to Life. 4. The pressure of winning on the big global stage is greater than in the comfortable confines of the GSL studio. 5. Money is the most objective measurement of a tournament’s significance, and it can be safely assumed that players will put the most effort into winning the most money.
Even if you weigh Blizzcon and GSL evenly, sOs comes out ahead in other categories. Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague, while sOs tied for most Proleague wins that season. Innovatoin’s other championships are WCS Season 1 2013 and IEM Gamescom, while sOs won IEM Katowice, 2014 Hot6 Cup and MSI Masters. Winning a WCS Season finals is obviously top tier, but winning IEM Katowice and a Hot6 Cup outweighs it. It’s close, maybe even closer than sOs and Life, but I think sOs gets the slight edge.
I don't like your checklist system all that much, you choose different categories for a lot of things which could be simply one (like gsl results overall, no need to look at every year on its own)
I wanna talk about your "blizzcon > gsl" thing.
Sure it is harder to qualify for blizzcon but that is only the case because every other tournament is a qualifier for it. Which is also why this part shouldn't be counted for blizzcon because we already value all the other tournament results seperately anyway. That qualifiying process also means that players can attend blizzcon who were on a hot streak several months ago, theoretically most players could already be in a slump when playing at blizzcon. The same isn't true for korean starleagues, at least not nearly to the same extent. Korean starleagues also have a more competetive playerbase because every single one of the players actually plays in the most competetive region. Blizzcon you also have players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu To win a korean starleague you have to win at least 18 games against 6 players (SSL) or 19 games against 7 players (GSL). Compare that to the 13 games against 4 players at blizzcon. This should be enough to convince you tbh. Blizzcon might be the most competetive thing after GSL/SSL/OSL, but even there Kespa Cup might take the spot tbh.
He is easily HotS' greatest player and most likely the greatest Zerg SC2 will ever have.
He is easily HotS' greatest player and most likely the greatest player SC2 will ever have.
Until more details are released regarding his role in the match fixing and the benefits he received, and until the tournament organizers and KeSPA strip him of his titles, he is still the greatest player in Heart of the Swarm.
Until more details are released regarding his role in the match fixing and the benefits he received, and until the tournament organizers and KeSPA strip him of his titles, he is still the greatest player of all time.
stuchiu is a nice writer. The only problem with him is that he has a strong fetiche with Mvp and Taeja.
Mvp won half of his titles in the era when Terran was OP as hell, basically since the launch of the game, in 2010, until late 2011. If it wasn't for Fruitdealer and Nestea (a player much more talented, in the strategy aspect, than Mvp), the first half of WoL would be just pure terran domination (zerg and protoss winning during that time were by far the exception than the rule).
About Taeja, the guy has never won a GSL or a Korean tournament in general. His best results are two RO4, in a 6 year span. Like, come on. It is as if you put George Best in the second place of the greatest football players, despising the fact that he never won a world cup.
But anyways, is his list. It's not like he is being objective or something: it's just his opinion.
Taeja is number 2? But MMA who won 2 WCS and Dreamhack, and also he was in 2 of 3 Hots Blizzcon, and in one of them even in the finals, isnt in TOP 10???
I love how people keep on pointing out the IEM - WC title of sOs as if it was a blizzcon or even more a GSL win, while featuring only 3 players from the GSL Ro8s (from the GSL before and after), which, surprise surprise, two of which made the finals. Because you know GSL>all other leagues, hence it's only logical that top8 GSL players take top2 in a weekend tournament for which most of the very best GSL players didn't qualify because you know, they were busy winning GSLs.
On the flipside you can look up Life's 2013 MLG Winter Championship title which was an invitational featuring probably a quite better lineup to begin with and being one round longer.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
On March 19 2016 01:27 Alarak89 wrote: IMO the greatest HotS player is between sOs and Innovation, Life is no.3. The rest of the HotS players do not qualify for top 3.
Category InnovationsOsAdvantage Blizzcon Championships 0 2 sOs GSL Championships 2 0 Innovation IEM 1 - Gamescome 1 - Katowice sOs Proleague 72% Winrate 2015 Tied Most Wins 2014; 61% winrate, 2 all kills 2015 sOs WCS Season Championship 1 0 Innovation 2nd Places GSL 2013; Dreamhack Bucharest 2013 2013 WCS Season 1; Red Bull Battlegrounds NY 2013 Even Minor Tournament Championships None 2015 MSI; 2014 Hot6 Cup sOs 2013 GSL Top 4, Top 16; Top 4, Top 32, Top 16 Even 2014 GSL Top 16; Top 8, Top 32, Top 16 sOs 2015 GSL/SSL SSL: Top 32, Top 32, Top 8 GSL: Top 8, Top 16 SSL: Top 32, Top 16 GSL: Top 4, Top 16 Innovation
The big difference is sOs’s Blizzcons, IEM Katowice and 2014 Proleague vs Innovation’s 2 GSL’s and WCS 2013 Season 1 Championship. Most people are weighting GSLs higher than Blizzcons, so I will give the argument for why Blizzcon should be weighted higher: 1. It is easier for a player in Korea to make it to the Ro16 of GSL than to make it to Blizzcon. Thus, only the best of the best from Korea will make it to Blizzcon. 2. The “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon were still in their prime and defeated all of the GSL Koreans in attendance (except for sOs). 3. 2015 Blizzcon was stacked with the best Koreans due to the double GSL/SSL tournament system in Korea. sOs defeated Parting, Rain, Rogue and Life. Innovation lost in the 2nd round to Life. 4. The pressure of winning on the big global stage is greater than in the comfortable confines of the GSL studio. 5. Money is the most objective measurement of a tournament’s significance, and it can be safely assumed that players will put the most effort into winning the most money.
Even if you weigh Blizzcon and GSL evenly, sOs comes out ahead in other categories. Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague, while sOs tied for most Proleague wins that season. Innovatoin’s other championships are WCS Season 1 2013 and IEM Gamescom, while sOs won IEM Katowice, 2014 Hot6 Cup and MSI Masters. Winning a WCS Season finals is obviously top tier, but winning IEM Katowice and a Hot6 Cup outweighs it. It’s close, maybe even closer than sOs and Life, but I think sOs gets the slight edge.
I really hoped Innovation could make to the WCS final 2015. So that sOs will have a chance to revenge him and be an ultimate champion of HotS era. But unfortunately Innovation failed too early I knew Life's play style is not good against sOs even before the final. I can tell that from their historical head to head match scores, Life is too aggressive and that's what sOs likes the most. But Innovation vs sOs? I cannot tell the result before the game actually start, although I still think sOs has big advantage since his PvT was almost unbeatable and Innovation was not in a good shape back then.
I don't like your checklist system all that much, you choose different categories for a lot of things which could be simply one (like gsl results overall, no need to look at every year on its own)
I don't like your posting system all that much. You choose minor things to criticize about posters who put careful consideration and effort into explaining their reasoning, while offering nothing constructive yourself.
Sure it is harder to qualify for blizzcon but that is only the case because every other tournament is a qualifier for it. Which is also why this part shouldn't be counted for blizzcon because we already value all the other tournament results seperately anyway.
Blizzcon reflects total performance over the year. Simply getting into Blizzcon shouldn't count for much in the rankings, but winning Blizzcon reflects a triumph over the players who were the best in the world that year.
That qualifiying process also means that players can attend blizzcon who were on a hot streak several months ago, theoretically most players could already be in a slump when playing at blizzcon. The same isn't true for korean starleagues, at least not nearly to the same extent.
True. But on the other hand, there are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all 16 players are able to focus exclusively on preparing for it. The same can't be said for most if not all of the other tournaments.
Korean starleagues also have a more competetive playerbase because every single one of the players actually plays in the most competetive region. Blizzcon you also have players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu
I already addressed this. In 2013, the players from the "most competitive region" (other than sOs) all lost to the "players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu." 2014 obviously had a very weak Blizzcon, but sOs wasn't there. 2015 had a super stacked Blizzcon with 13 players from the Korean region ... and sOs won.
To win a korean starleague you have to win at least 18 games against 6 players (SSL) or 19 games against 7 players (GSL). Compare that to the 13 games against 4 players at blizzcon.
A lot of players who aren't top tier make it into the Ro32 and Ro16 of GSL every season. Only the very best players from the year make it to GSL. Maybe 2014 Blizzcon was weaker than some Code S's, but 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than most if not all GSL Ro16s.
This should be enough to convince you tbh.
No. tbh
Blizzcon might be the most competetive thing after GSL/SSL/OSL, but even there Kespa Cup might take the spot tbh.
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
This list has maru higher up than the article list, so it's probably better.
If Stuchiu was writting about football or tennis, we might have had Zlatan and Tsonga as greatest players of all time...
90% of the people here agree that you have to perform at the right moment, in the greatest tournaments... Some players have beaten Nadal in small tournament but never at his peak in Rolland Garros. Some Masters 1000 are stacked as hell with all the top 10 but guess what ? That's not a grand slam.
In this logic, if Bolt is beaten in some shitty meeting he's not the greatest ? He's the Olympic champion, end of the discussion.
This article is beyond ridiculous, Taeja was not even able to win a WCS America...
Inno, Sos, Maru, Life, Zest, even Soo are miles ahead...
Taeja : non existent in GSL, OSL, WCS Finals, WCS America, WCS Global Finals...
On March 19 2016 05:27 Frenchy91 wrote: God what a joke...
If Stuchiu was writting about football or tennis, we might have had Zlatan and Tsonga as greatest players of all time...
90% of the people here agree that you have to perform at the right moment, in the greatest tournaments... Some players have beaten Nadal in small tournament but never at his peak in Rolland Garros. Some Masters 1000 are stacked as hell with all the top 10 but guess what ? That's not a grand slam.
In this logic, if Bolt is beaten in some shitty meeting he's not the greatest ? He's the Olympic champion, end of the discussion.
This article is beyond ridiculous, Taeja was not even able to win a WCS America...
Inno, Sos, Maru, Life, Zest, even Soo are miles ahead...
Taeja : non existent in GSL, OSL, WCS Finals, WCS America, WCS Global Finals...
Good writeup as for a personal blog, absolutely disgusting as for TL main page because of that Taeja bias. The guy has never reached Korean league playoff in Hots and he is the greatest terran. Not even funny. Realistically, he's the same caliber as MMA and Bomber (12-8 vs Taeja, such a man!), being obviously lower then Maru and Inno. Imagine if stuchiu would be Jaedong's fan too. 15 Premier TOP4 finishes in HotS, 14-15 vs Taeja-God himself - easy #3 of the list!
I don't like your checklist system all that much, you choose different categories for a lot of things which could be simply one (like gsl results overall, no need to look at every year on its own)
I don't like your posting system all that much. You choose minor things to criticize about posters who put careful consideration and effort into explaining their reasoning, while offering nothing constructive yourself.
Sure it is harder to qualify for blizzcon but that is only the case because every other tournament is a qualifier for it. Which is also why this part shouldn't be counted for blizzcon because we already value all the other tournament results seperately anyway.
Blizzcon reflects total performance over the year. Simply getting into Blizzcon shouldn't count for much in the rankings, but winning Blizzcon reflects a triumph over the players who were the best in the world that year.
That qualifiying process also means that players can attend blizzcon who were on a hot streak several months ago, theoretically most players could already be in a slump when playing at blizzcon. The same isn't true for korean starleagues, at least not nearly to the same extent.
True. But on the other hand, there are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all 16 players are able to focus exclusively on preparing for it. The same can't be said for most if not all of the other tournaments.
Korean starleagues also have a more competetive playerbase because every single one of the players actually plays in the most competetive region. Blizzcon you also have players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu
I already addressed this. In 2013, the players from the "most competitive region" (other than sOs) all lost to the "players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu." 2014 obviously had a very weak Blizzcon, but sOs wasn't there. 2015 had a super stacked Blizzcon with 13 players from the Korean region ... and sOs won.
To win a korean starleague you have to win at least 18 games against 6 players (SSL) or 19 games against 7 players (GSL). Compare that to the 13 games against 4 players at blizzcon.
A lot of players who aren't top tier make it into the Ro32 and Ro16 of GSL every season. Only the very best players from the year make it to GSL. Maybe 2014 Blizzcon was weaker than some Code S's, but 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than most if not all GSL Ro16s.
Blizzcon might be the most competetive thing after GSL/SSL/OSL, but even there Kespa Cup might take the spot tbh.
Already addressed.
Ok let's agree to disagree, i think you are incredibly biased towards sOs (looking at your category system and how much you value blizzcon when it is clearly not the highest lvl of competition) The only thing i really can agree on is that proleague should be part of the criteria, that's about it though.
On March 19 2016 05:08 Lil_nooblet wrote: Wait do some people actually think winning Blizzcon is more impressive and difficult than winning a gsl? lol
Well for one, there are more opportunities to win a GSL. In fact, 9 players were able to win a GSL/SSL. Only 2 were able to win a Blizzcon.
In addition, even making it to Blizzcon requires an elite level of performance over the course of a year. In GSL, it’s possible you just catch a hot streak at the right time.
It’s also easier for weaker players to slip into the Ro16 of GSL than Blizzcon. 2014 Blizzcon is the obvious exception, but sOs wasn’t at 2014 Blizzcon so that’s irrelevant to him. The 2013 and 2015 Blizzcons that sOs won were stacked. In 2013 Blizzcon, it’s arguable that a good portion of the “foreign” participants were better than the GSL participants. In fact, all the GSL participants except sOs lost to the “foreign” Koreans at 2013 Blizzcon.
There are no other tournaments happening concurrently with Blizzcon, so all the players are giving it their 100% focus.
Being on the big global stage is more intimidating than the familiar confines of the GSL studio.
Finally, having the largest prize pool means players will be trying their hardest to win Blizzcon over other tournaments.
On March 19 2016 06:15 The_Red_Viper wrote: Ok let's agree to disagree, i think you are incredibly biased towards sOs (looking at your category system and how much you value blizzcon when it is clearly not the highest lvl of competition) The only think i really can agree on is that proleague should be part of the criteria, that's about it though.
I'm not even an sOs fan. I hate him because of what he did to my favorite player herO at IEM Katowice. But his results speak for themselves.
I don't like your checklist system all that much, you choose different categories for a lot of things which could be simply one (like gsl results overall, no need to look at every year on its own)
I don't like your posting system all that much. You choose minor things to criticize about posters who put careful consideration and effort into explaining their reasoning, while offering nothing constructive yourself.
Sure it is harder to qualify for blizzcon but that is only the case because every other tournament is a qualifier for it. Which is also why this part shouldn't be counted for blizzcon because we already value all the other tournament results seperately anyway.
Blizzcon reflects total performance over the year. Simply getting into Blizzcon shouldn't count for much in the rankings, but winning Blizzcon reflects a triumph over the players who were the best in the world that year.
That qualifiying process also means that players can attend blizzcon who were on a hot streak several months ago, theoretically most players could already be in a slump when playing at blizzcon. The same isn't true for korean starleagues, at least not nearly to the same extent.
True. But on the other hand, there are no other tournaments happening at the same time as Blizzcon, so all 16 players are able to focus exclusively on preparing for it. The same can't be said for most if not all of the other tournaments.
Korean starleagues also have a more competetive playerbase because every single one of the players actually plays in the most competetive region. Blizzcon you also have players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu
I already addressed this. In 2013, the players from the "most competitive region" (other than sOs) all lost to the "players who farm weekend tournaments/wcs na/eu." 2014 obviously had a very weak Blizzcon, but sOs wasn't there. 2015 had a super stacked Blizzcon with 13 players from the Korean region ... and sOs won.
To win a korean starleague you have to win at least 18 games against 6 players (SSL) or 19 games against 7 players (GSL). Compare that to the 13 games against 4 players at blizzcon.
A lot of players who aren't top tier make it into the Ro32 and Ro16 of GSL every season. Only the very best players from the year make it to GSL. Maybe 2014 Blizzcon was weaker than some Code S's, but 2013 and 2015 Blizzcon were harder than most if not all GSL Ro16s.
This should be enough to convince you tbh.
No. tbh
Blizzcon might be the most competetive thing after GSL/SSL/OSL, but even there Kespa Cup might take the spot tbh.
Already addressed.
Ok let's agree to disagree, i think you are incredibly biased towards sOs (looking at your category system and how much you value blizzcon when it is clearly not the highest lvl of competition) The only think i really can agree on is that proleague should be part of the criteria, that's about it though.
well, you are also incredibly bias towards stuchiu.
I dont agree 100% with BlackZetsu, but at least, he spent a lot of times explaining his processus and decision, and I really respect that.
You on the other, except trolling, you just said ''Nah, you are bias!!! Blizzcon is garbage!! even Kespa cup is more important!! '' Without any explanation whatsoever.
GSL round of 16 might be more stacked that blizzcon round of 16, but theres also more pressure playing there......
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
I'm not talking Taeja, I'm talking about those ridiculous claims that sOs should be on top of the list without reaching a GSL finals based on the notion that somehow blizzcon and IEM Katowice are as good or better than GSL/OSL championships.
Taeja is one or two ranks too high for my gut feeling, but I have a good overview of how many tournaments this guy won and what opponent's he consistently beat and that really does qualify for a very high rank.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
To me, only GSL/SSL and WCS Final Series are called championship tournament So you should use a quotation for "championship" here
It seems people have quickly forgotten the fear that Taeja struck in people's hearts during his reign. It was worse than even Inno in his recent peak. As a hardcore Life fan back in the day, even I was scared every single time that he went up against Taeja and that's saying something. Looking at how Taeja has dropped off, people's perceptions of him clearly went down the gutter as well. But when looking at how deadly he was and for that long amount of time, there is no doubt that Taeja is high up in the list. He was dominant. He struck fear in the hearts of even the most hardcore and diehard fans that knew their Starcraft. Although I don't know if I would quite put him at #2, he is definitely in the Top 5.
On March 19 2016 06:49 MiniFotToss wrote: soO above Rain, sOs and herO??!! what.....
I like how you list all Protoss players. xP I was a big soO fan back in the day and you can only really understand his struggle when you look at what he went through. soO was knocked down hard so many times in a row but stood back up each time. People that haven't looked at soO closely may not realize how much it takes to pull yourself up and keep fighting each time you come close to that championship title. He can be written off as "consistent" but that was superhuman will to stand up each time. Also, soO was able to exploit the Zerg's macro to its greatest potential. While Life is great in his uncanny ability to sense weakness, soO was incredible in his ability to overpower his opponent's with macro in every game. There's a reason why his GSL Season "hype" trailer was boring. He was just that consistent in what he did to the extent it seemed normal. Maybe that was why he wasn't clutch when it actually mattered, but what he did was still incredible.
soO over Rain and sOs imo. I'm not quite sure about herO tbh tho.
On March 18 2016 12:21 pure.Wasted wrote: Taeja's positive record against the other GOATs is very misleading. This record comes from fighting them almost exclusively on HIS turf.
For Taeja nothing is more important than whatever weekend tournaments he happens to be playing in at any given point in time. You CANNOT compare that to a KeSPA player who has fifty other priorities and isn't used to the stresses of flying around the world right before a big game or playing in front of a foreign audience.
Note if you will how well Polt and MC - globe trotters themselves - match up against him, while players like Maru and Zest get blown right out.
Extremely disappointing to see Korean starleagues held in such low regard.
Highly agree w/ your first point. And it really should just be common sense.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
I'm not talking Taeja, I'm talking about those ridiculous claims that sOs should be on top of the list without reaching a GSL finals based on the notion that somehow blizzcon and IEM Katowice are as good or better than GSL/OSL championships.
Taeja is one or two ranks too high for my gut feeling, but I have a good overview of how many tournaments this guy won and what opponent's he consistently beat and that really does qualify for a very high rank.
As a terran I don't want my best representative not even be able to win a StarLeague, because that truly means there isn't even someone still standing strong. INno managed to do it so it should be a no brainer. Then the next PL/GSL terrans heros so probably Maru and idk.
Surely not TaeJa xD, looks more trollish than the patchzerg list.
On March 18 2016 13:03 Big J wrote: sos is overrated. His playstyle has been bad and he is bound to overcheese in longer tournaments when he hits multiple strong opponentsin a row. That's why he hasn't won something like a GSL.
Yeah, except the guy who rated no.1 on this list was the one who try to cheese sOs out in blizzcon grand finals with multiple early pool and baneling bust. That's why sOs never win a blizzcon against the strong opponents. Oh wait...
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
On March 18 2016 13:03 Big J wrote: sos is overrated. His playstyle has been bad and he is bound to overcheese in longer tournaments when he hits multiple strong opponentsin a row. That's why he hasn't won something like a GSL.
Congratulations on one of the most moronic statements I've ever seen on TL. Quite an impressive feat.
Guys, I just watched the GSL group selection and I must acknowledge, TaeJa is a strategic genius. He deserves his spot in TOP5 :-) So my ranking is now: 1. Life 2. InnoVaTion 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. TaeJa
On March 19 2016 14:17 Diabolique wrote: Guys, I just watched the GSL group selection and I must acknowledge, TaeJa is a strategic genius. He deserves his spot in TOP5 :-) So my ranking is now: 1. Life 2. InnoVaTion 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. TaeJa
Ah but you forget that his group selection genius relates to LotV so it doesn't count!
On March 19 2016 14:17 Diabolique wrote: Guys, I just watched the GSL group selection and I must acknowledge, TaeJa is a strategic genius. He deserves his spot in TOP5 :-) So my ranking is now: 1. Life 2. InnoVaTion 3. sOs 4. Zest 5. TaeJa
Ah but you forget that his group selection genius relates to LotV so it doesn't count!
I know, but that was so brilliant that it flashes back to HotS.
1. "Guys, I do not care, I cannot get to RO8, so I will at least have fun and create a group of death." 2. "Hey, herO, I do not like my group, all the players are strong, it is practically a group of death. Can you switch me for soO?" :-))) LOL!
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
So HerO --> Polt --> Bomber --> JD is a harder run than INnoVation --> sOs --> ForGG --> HerO --> MMA --> Life (twice) because Blizzcon is a more prestigious tournament than DH: Winter? I'm not sure I follow.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
So HerO --> Polt --> Bomber --> JD is a harder run than INnoVation --> sOs --> ForGG --> HerO --> MMA --> Life (twice) because Blizzcon is a more prestigious tournament than DH: Winter? I'm not sure I follow.
Where was TaeJa during this "easy" blizzcon? Oh yes, getting 3-1ed by a guy who was beaten right after that. Mkay.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
So HerO --> Polt --> Bomber --> JD is a harder run than INnoVation --> sOs --> ForGG --> HerO --> MMA --> Life (twice) because Blizzcon is a more prestigious tournament than DH: Winter? I'm not sure I follow.
Where was TaeJa during this "easy" blizzcon? Oh yes, getting 3-1ed by a guy who was beaten right after that. Mkay.
Pretty sure Dear as GSL and WCS champion was a (the?) tournament favorite and not just "a guy".
Also I hope you realise DH: Winter was 3 weeks after Blizzcon and featured half the people that played at the Global Finals. It was by no means an easy tournament, and if you directly compare who sOs had to beat to win Blizzcon vs who TaeJa had to beat to win DH: Winter, TaeJa's run was stronger.
None of which changes the fact that TaeJa is too high on this list.
It doesn't matter that the criteria is or what list is made, TaeJa will always be too high on the list. You can't place him in a list because he doesn't follow the typical statistics needed to form one. When he was full-time, TaeJa was a beast. When all the Koreans were forced back to the GSL/SSL, everyone wanted to play against TaeJa. They needed that feather in their cap of defeating him. They knew that if the went overseas to play him, he was the odds-on favorite to win.
So in the en, it doesn't matter what Stuchiu writes or anyone else for that matter. TaeJa is an anomaly and can't be placed into these lists because he doesn't fit. I've watched a lot of SC2 and TaeJa just does what he does. "What kind of player is this?" That's TaeJa. You can't really categorize him.
I think he's top 5 easy in HoTS just because of the way he dominated the best players for a long period of time. But without the Korean "holyshitballshardesttourneyever" win, he'll always be that one player outside the group who is recognized as really good and one of the best to play it, but can't be included because of his absence from the scene. To deny TaeJa's ability to win and to beat the best of the best when they are considered the best, is folly.
Then, by your admission, he is one of the best HoTS players. Taking into account everything he has accomplished in HoTS, against the best players, he deserves the ranking.
I submitted my argument in hopes to move on from the details and the minutia, as those can and will be, hotly contested. Looking purely upon his body of work, TaeJa is one of the best, top 5, no argument. No matter the league he played in.
Taeja and sOs are very similar IMHO. They are both "weekend warriors", with neither of them having won a GSL/SSL or WCS because they are just not that good in that kind of tourney, and if Taeja would have participated in PL I think his results would have been close to sOs there. I think I would give the edge to Taeja tho, since he was less reliant of BO/cheesy wins. Also funny how some ppl would put any of them so high up without a GSL/SSL/WCS win to their name; at some point actual results in those SHOULD count for something, right?
I mainly agree with Stuchiu's list, except for the #2 Taeja obviously.
On March 19 2016 23:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Then, by your admission, he is one of the best HoTS players. Taking into account everything he has accomplished in HoTS, against the best players, he deserves the ranking.
I submitted my argument in hopes to move on from the details and the minutia, as those can and will be, hotly contested. Looking purely upon his body of work, TaeJa is one of the best, top 5, no argument. No matter the league he played in.
He is one of the best of HotS, no discussion here. As you say he is hard to place "correctly" intuitively, but I believe any somewhat prestigeous ranking should attempt to use some more scientific methodology anyways, like this ranking does.
On March 19 2016 23:31 waiting2Bbanned wrote: Taeja and sOs are very similar IMHO. They are both "weekend warriors", with neither of them having won a GSL/SSL or WCS because they are just not that good in that kind of tourney, and if Taeja would have participated in PL I think his results would have been close to sOs there. I think I would give the edge to Taeja tho, since he was less reliant of BO/cheesy wins. Also funny how some ppl would put any of them so high up without a GSL/SSL/WCS win to their name; at some point actual results in those SHOULD count for something, right?
I mainly agree with Stuchiu's list, except for the #2 Taeja obviously.
For the record, TaeJa played a season of Proleague with the EG-TL alliance. 9 wins, 10 losses.
The obvious issue of Taeja being too high has pretty much been summarized from every angle already. As has sOs being too low. And earlier about Classic being ridiculously outside the top ten.
Another glaring problem for me (and surprised by the almost complete lack of discussion on this point) is Maru not being at minimum, in the top 5, for what seems to be most folks personal rankings, including this one.
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
Back in Part 1 of the rankings, I laid out in depth why because of his absolutely dominant PL role/results (undisputed ace player for a constant high-level playoff team), multiple Starleague titles and numerous other high finishes, and maybe most impressively, dominating the meta (especially against P) through long stretches when T was generally down and out.
Because of his limited exposure overseas and unimpressive results in the few foreign events, many fans seem to not have a complete picture of just how dominant he was for almost all of 2014 and 2015. He was constantly asked to carry JAGW on his back (while also excelling in individual leagues). Other than perhaps herO and Zest for stretches, no one on a week-to-week basis the last two PL seasons so utterly outclassed their world-class opposition in the most challenging team league in the world. He struck fear into the hearts of all P (back when they were dominating as they did for much of HOTS) by employing an ultra micro-intensive, nonstop multitask aggressive bio playstyle, that no one else was capable of emulating or preparing against.
Based on the totality of his achievements, Maru has to be a mandatory top five in any HOTS GOAT ranking. And for me, he's at least locked into a top four slot. With clear wiggle room to be top three.
On March 20 2016 02:18 Orr wrote: The obvious issue of Taeja being too high has pretty much been summarized from every angle already. As has sOs being too low. And earlier about Classic being ridiculously outside the top ten.
Another glaring problem for me (and surprised by the almost complete lack of discussion on this point) is Maru not being at minimum, in the top 5, for what seems to be most folks personal rankings, including this one.
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
Back in Part 1 of the rankings, I laid out in depth why because of his absolutely dominant PL role/results (undisputed ace player for a constant high-level playoff team), multiple Starleague titles and numerous other high finishes, and maybe most impressively, dominating the meta (especially against P) through long stretches when T was generally down and out.
Because of his limited exposure overseas and unimpressive results in the few foreign events, many fans seem to not have a complete picture of just how dominant he was for almost all of 2014 and 2015. He was constantly asked to carry JAGW on his back (while also excelling in individual leagues). Other than perhaps herO and Zest for stretches, no one on a week-to-week basis the last two PL seasons so utterly outclassed their world-class opposition in the most challenging team league in the world. He struck fear into the hearts of all P (back when they were dominating as they did for much of HOTS) by employing an ultra micro-intensive, nonstop multitask aggressive bio playstyle, that no one else was capable of emulating or preparing against.
Based on the totality of his achievements, Maru has to be a mandatory top five in any HOTS GOAT ranking. And for me, he's at least locked into a top four slot. With clear wiggle room to be top three.
Going off of what Stuchiu has proposed, I can understand why Maru is where he is. If anything, these rankings should be broken down into multiple categories to attempt to satisfy all contingencies. I've seen few PL matches simply because of the time. I try to catch the VODs if possible, but my time is split severely in multiple directions.
There should be a Koren Team League Ranking (GOAT/HoTS), Korean HoTS GOAT, and then the general where everything is taken into account like what was done here. If someone would take this charge upon themselves, I doubt we would have as much argument as we do when TaeJa is placed in a general ranking system.
On March 20 2016 02:18 Orr wrote: The obvious issue of Taeja being too high has pretty much been summarized from every angle already. As has sOs being too low. And earlier about Classic being ridiculously outside the top ten.
Another glaring problem for me (and surprised by the almost complete lack of discussion on this point) is Maru not being at minimum, in the top 5, for what seems to be most folks personal rankings, including this one.
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
Back in Part 1 of the rankings, I laid out in depth why because of his absolutely dominant PL role/results (undisputed ace player for a constant high-level playoff team), multiple Starleague titles and numerous other high finishes, and maybe most impressively, dominating the meta (especially against P) through long stretches when T was generally down and out.
Because of his limited exposure overseas and unimpressive results in the few foreign events, many fans seem to not have a complete picture of just how dominant he was for almost all of 2014 and 2015. He was constantly asked to carry JAGW on his back (while also excelling in individual leagues). Other than perhaps herO and Zest for stretches, no one on a week-to-week basis the last two PL seasons so utterly outclassed their world-class opposition in the most challenging team league in the world. He struck fear into the hearts of all P (back when they were dominating as they did for much of HOTS) by employing an ultra micro-intensive, nonstop multitask aggressive bio playstyle, that no one else was capable of emulating or preparing against.
Based on the totality of his achievements, Maru has to be a mandatory top five in any HOTS GOAT ranking. And for me, he's at least locked into a top four slot. With clear wiggle room to be top three.
Going off of what Stuchiu has proposed, I can understand why Maru is where he is. If anything, these rankings should be broken down into multiple categories to attempt to satisfy all contingencies. I've seen few PL matches simply because of the time. I try to catch the VODs if possible, but my time is split severely in multiple directions.
There should be a Koren Team League Ranking (GOAT/HoTS), Korean HoTS GOAT, and then the general where everything is taken into account like what was done here. If someone would take this charge upon themselves, I doubt we would have as much argument as we do when TaeJa is placed in a general ranking system.
The problem with stuchiu is that he didnt gave a f*ck about PL, why i have 0 idea.
Proleague is one of the most prestigious league in sc2, and a lot of koreans would probably choose to play the PL final over SSL finals. I have been to korea, my girlfriend is from korea, and she hears way more of PL than GSL/SSL.
And theres absolutely no way stuchiu cared about PL while doing his rankings, otherwise, sOs woudl be way higher, Maru also, while Life would defenitly not be #1 and taeja not #2.
Which is a shame he didnt cared, since PL is really great and prestigious.
Precisely why this is considered a general evaluation over all of HoTS and not just the Korean scene. A lot of players would never get ranked in any system because they didn't play at all or barely played. This is a general ranking, excluding PL because it wouldn't be fair to a lot of players if that was included. TaeJa didn't play in PL, but he's still one of the best. As I said before, to deny him a ranking on ANY GOAT list is unfair because he didn't play there.
On March 20 2016 03:44 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Precisely why this is considered a general evaluation over all of HoTS and not just the Korean scene. A lot of players would never get ranked in any system because they didn't play at all or barely played. This is a general ranking, excluding PL because it wouldn't be fair to a lot of players if that was included. TaeJa didn't play in PL, but he's still one of the best. As I said before, to deny him a ranking on ANY GOAT list is unfair because he didn't play there.
I don't understand this reasoning. So if a player decides to only play online tournaments but he wins 90% of them (inlcuding ones where s class players participate) he should be on a goat list as well? Obviously this is an exaggerated taeja case, but you get the point i think? If you don't play in the most competetive tournaments you simply cannot be high on a goat list in my opinion. If you do not play in the english/german/spanish/italian league and championsleague/world championship you will never be considered a great soccer player, simply because people accept that you have to be great in the most competetive leagues.
I don't watch basketball but i doubt people give a damn about people who do not play in the nba.
Why should it be different in starcraft? (i don't wanna deny Taeja a place somewhere in the list, he obviously had impressive results on his own, but i still think i have a good point )
On March 20 2016 04:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: You're comparing highly visible sports such as NBA, FIFA, etc, to SC2? I get the point, but it's completely different.
No, I wouldn't consider someone who wins 90% online cups on a GOAT list. These must be offline, LAN tournaments.
But yes, I understand your point. It just feels like your reaching for reasons to denounce TaeJa.
But it doesn't matter what lvl of competition these LAN tournaments feature? Or do you simply disagree that IEM/Dreamhack/etc aren't really comparable to GSL/SSL?
I don't think i am reaching, i think Taeja was/is a great player, just not as great as the majority (i think) says he is. Also why is it "completely different" ? You said it is but gave no reasoning. Imo putting Taeja at place two in such a list is like putting someone high in real sports who never played at an international level but dominated nationally (ironically in sc2 "international level" is playing in korea, not at weekend stuff)
Typically at this point in the discussion people tell me that weekend tournaments had high lvl s class players competing too, yes that is true, but a few of them competing at a weekend tournament IS NOT the same as all of them competing for every korean starleague/in proleague. I don't wanna deny that Taeja had to beat players like Zest, Life, Innovation, etc to win some of his tournaments, but in GSL you have to beat really strong players every single round, every single s class player is competing. That is the big difference, not even talking about preparation vs non preparation because i think this factor isn't as important as the point i just tried to make.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
... take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Well, if prestige is completely irrelevant then winning a stacked qualifier should count as much as winning blizzcon wouldn't it? Since you have to beat the same level of players. Performing well when it really counts is what makes a champion, nobody cares if you beat everyone in small ass tournaments if you can't beat them in the important ones.
On March 20 2016 04:09 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: You're comparing highly visible sports such as NBA, FIFA, etc, to SC2? I get the point, but it's completely different.
No, I wouldn't consider someone who wins 90% online cups on a GOAT list. These must be offline, LAN tournaments.
But yes, I understand your point. It just feels like your reaching for reasons to denounce TaeJa.
But it doesn't matter what lvl of competition these LAN tournaments feature? Or do you simply disagree that IEM/Dreamhack/etc aren't really comparable to GSL/SSL?
I don't think i am reaching, i think Taeja was/is a great player, just not as great as the majority (i think) says he is. Also why is it "completely different" ? You said it is but gave no reasoning. Imo putting Taeja at place two in such a list is like putting someone high in real sports who never played at an international level but dominated nationally (ironically in sc2 "international level" is playing in korea, not at weekend stuff)
Typically at this point in the discussion people tell me that weekend tournaments had high lvl s class players competing too, yes that is true, but a few of them competing at a weekend tournament IS NOT the same as all of them competing for every korean starleague/in proleague. I don't wanna deny that Taeja had to beat players like Zest, Life, Innovation, etc to win some of his tournaments, but in GSL you have to beat really strong players every single round, every single s class player is competing. That is the big difference, not even talking about preparation vs non preparation because i think this factor isn't as important as the point i just tried to make.
Then what happened to a lot of the players that aren't in GSL/SSL right now? They got knocked out by some questionable players and some had to play very strong players early on. Unfortunate, but any player at any time is capable of having a bad day (Rogue). That's the crux of the game. The lvl of competition at the offline events matter of course. And I agree that GSL/SSL is harder to an extent. But once those same players come over to IEM/Dreamhack, they should still be able to perform if they are the best. TaeJa took a year off to heal and now he's playing at an incredible level given his recent showings.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Well, if prestige is completely irrelevant then winning a stacked qualifier should count as much as winning blizzcon wouldn't it? Since you have to beat the same level of players. Performing well when it really counts is what makes a champion, nobody cares if you beat everyone in small ass tournaments if you can't beat them in the important ones.
Sort of, which is why I don't really differentiate there either. I was usually more impressed by whoever won the Korean IEM qualifiers than whoever won the actual tournament.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant.
Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious.
And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line.
The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too.
You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant.
Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious.
And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line.
The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too.
You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously
He's not the only one I agree with him mostly, though I do think it should have some factor in the rankings.
But overall I don't see how people can say sOs' Blizzcon 13 run was harder than some of the DH's of Taeja just because it was a Blizzcon. And i'm far more of a sOs fan than a Taeja one.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Wrong. From someone who played in various levels of Broodwar tournaments, there was a different sense of importance to me and everyone else playing in tournaments that matters as opposed to tournaments that didn't matter a whole lot. Prestige definitely makes a difference in mind-set and how much you prepare - even if you were playing the same person in both tournaments, the tournament determined how much weight that match would have and you would prepare and play accordingly.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant.
Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious.
And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line.
The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too.
You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously
Indeed. I like Olli, but there is no way prestige is ever "completely and 100% irrelevant." In fact, I would argue it's one of the things that made Mvp great for example. Like, having the composure to keep going in game 7 against squirtle after the first attack with from the proxy raxes had been repelled? That takes guts man. But, like, on ladder? Sure why not. How big is that difference? Hard to say, but it IS difference, it is not completely irrelevant.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
you might not take him seriosuly, but i wont take you seriously neither if you say that prestige is completly irrelevant.
Like a lot of people mentionned to you, theres a huge difference between playing vs InnO, Maru, Life etc in a round of 16, or at a DH, than at the final of blizzcon. To anyone who played sports IRL it should be quite obvious.
And I have never seen a player like sOs playing so well under pressure. Just look at IEM, 100k WINNER TAKES ALL, and he has the balls to proxy gate herO multiple time when 100k is on the line.
The fact that sOs can perform so well at the most prestigious tournament is completly relevant, just like the fact that soO cant win a final is relevant to the rankings too.
You seem to be mostly the one that doesnt think like that, that in itself is a pretty big reason for why you should take his comment seriously
Indeed. I like Olli, but there is no way prestige is ever "completely and 100% irrelevant." In fact, I would argue it's one of the things that made Mvp great for example. Like, having the composure to keep going in game 7 against squirtle after the first attack with from the proxy raxes had been repelled? That takes guts man. But, like, on ladder? Sure why not. How big is that difference? Hard to say, but it IS difference, it is not completely irrelevant.
You speak of mindset and composure. Not prestige. The prestige of the tournament might matter to some people, but if they don't have the correct mindset going in or becomes rattled after a cheese, then they will more than likely fall short. Prestige helps when ranking winnings, but it's different for the people actually playing.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
More prestige = way higher pressure Ask any Olympic athlete: the pressure gets unreal, the higher the prestige is.
Prestige is not irrelevant at all. This comment just proves how biased you are.
This comment shows why I've never taken you seriously.
Everything you said is based on assumptions. It's just as difficult to beat the best in the world at Dreamhack as it is to beat them somewhere else with a bigger prize pool and more prestige. You forget that a lot of prestige simply comes from the way tournaments are built up and their prize pool. So Katowice had 100k winner takes all, does that somehow make it more impressive than a GSL? Absolutely not. People in here are arguing in favor of sOs, using the same arguments in his favor that they then use against Taeja. sOs too has never won a GSL or Starleague. He just has an uncanny ability to show up big when prestige is high and that's what clouds people's judgement.
Not that Taeja's done poorly in high pressure situations anyway, he was the best player at Blizzcon 2014.
And I don't even know how I got dragged into the Taeja argument, I wasn't even talking about him. Prestige in general is just idiotic to take into account when you're doing an evaluation of skill.
Wrong. From someone who played in various levels of Broodwar tournaments, there was a different sense of importance to me and everyone else playing in tournaments that matters as opposed to tournaments that didn't matter a whole lot. Prestige definitely makes a difference in mind-set and how much you prepare - even if you were playing the same person in both tournaments, the tournament determined how much weight that match would have and you would prepare and play accordingly.
Well put. And as other posters have already stated, anyone who has ever played any type of sport in some decently competitive capacity will immediately attest to this.
If we decide to not factor in the 'prestige' of any tournament when determining its importance (and solely the competition, or more specifically the players defeated on the way to the title),
and if it really has no bearing whatsoever on anyone's inherent skill/determination (to rise up when the stakes are the greatest),
then following Olli's logic, we might as well deduce ability/talent (and subsequently achievements) by random high level online cups (or even qualifiers as he suggests), played in the comfort of each player's own training house, on their favorite PC and chair situated in a darkened corner, in front of at most a few thousand random viewers at some obscure time, while in their pajamas and eating snacks while texting their friends between games (for all we know).
***Also not sure what Olli means by saying Taeja was the best player at Blizzcon 2014. I watched the entire stream live, as I'm sure many others here did too. The unforgivable technical glitches and constant lag-outs (in all rounds until the GF) clearly affected certain players more than others. Innovation seemed by far the most flustered and thrown off (visibly crying in frustration at the unacceptable setup). Which clearly seemed to contribute in being upset by Taeja (when he was strongly favored) 1-3 in the RO8. Regardless, in the next round, I saw Life defeat Taeja 3-2 in the RO4. And then crush an inspired MMA 4-1 in the GF. Maybe for TL staff it was scored differently, but for me, that makes Life (not Taeja) the clear-cut best player in that WCS Global Finals.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
For real? Prestige and prize money add stacks and some players have more troubles winning these. Otherwise you have to count online tourneys or whatever.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
For real? Prestige and prize money add stacks and some players have more troubles winning these. Otherwise you have to count online tourneys or whatever.
I do. IEM KR qualifiers are some of the toughest tournaments out there for example.
Of course prestige of the tournament matters, hence we shouldn't give too much weightage to H2H between players in less prestigious tournaments. And what defines 'prestige' is a matter of common perception (which usually, but not always correlates with prize money). That Korean Starleague is the most prestigious tournament to Koreans should be undeniable (Koreans playing abroad might differ, but they're the minority).
In badminton, there's this rivalry between Lin Dan (China) and Lee Chong Wei (Malaysia). Chong Wei has been the reigning World No. 1 for many years. But Lin Dan has a far more impressive trophy haul. In lesser tournaments, Chong Wei could take out Lin Dan, sometimes quite easily. But at the biggest stage, Lin Dan almost always emerges triumphant. Why is Lin Dan not No. 1? He's prone to slacking and bombing out in lesser tournaments. He has this cocky and laidback air about him. He's not bothered about World Rankings (part of why he ranks lowly is because he doesn't participate in as many lesser tourneys as Chong Wei) But on the biggest stage, he's a monster (Life-esque and sOs-esque). Ask any badminton fan, and they'll agree that Lin Dan is the greatest player in the past decade, not Chong Wei.
Point is, statistics alone don't tell you the full picture of a player's greatness. Prestige matters. And that requires giving proper weightage to tournaments. And to that, perception matters. And judging by this thread and elsewhere, the general perception is that Taeja's weekend victories and impressive H2H statistics against top players are really not as prestigious as the cumulative achievements of multi Starleague winners.
And just stop to treat weekend tournaments like GSL/OSL, whether you think they are worth two times more or 1.5 times more, they are much more important. Especially to the players who won't make room for a weekend tournament when they have a shot at placing high in a Korea premier league.
Nobody here thinks weekend tournaments are just as important as GSL/OSL, but even when korean tournaments are worth two times or 1,5 times more TaeJa would still be very high on the list.
Oh yes, Taeja's championships in HotS are so impressive:
Homestory Cup VII Asus ROG Summer 2013 2013 Dreamhack Open: Bucharest Homestory Cup VIII 2013 DreamHack Open: Winter Homestory Cup IX 2014 DreamhHack Open: Summer IEM Shenzhen IX
You're deluded if you think that DH Winter wasn't a stacked tournament. It was a harder run than blizzcon 13 / katowice 14 for example.
It's not a harder run especially considering Blizzcon prestige compared to a Dreamhack.
This is the most common mistake in any evaluation of skill. Prestige is completely and 100% irrelevant.
For real? Prestige and prize money add stacks and some players have more troubles winning these. Otherwise you have to count online tourneys or whatever.
I do. IEM KR qualifiers are some of the toughest tournaments out there for example.
Okay so the best list is the top 15 KR ladder, going by this logic . Tons of great players battling out each other for nothing but ladder points, but hey skill isn't even partially measured by prestige.
By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote: By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone.
Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness.
On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote: By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone.
Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness.
The basic idea probably is the bigger the potential money you can win, the harder it is to stay calm and focused. Which in itself is one of the most important skills for being a s class player in pretty much every competition you can think of.
So i can see where this idea is coming from, but at one point i don't think it makes a lot of difference anymore so i agree with your general concept.
On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote: By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone.
Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness.
The basic idea probably is the bigger the potential money you can win, the harder it is to stay calm and focused. Which in itself is one of the most important skills for being a s class player in pretty much every competition you can think of.
So i can see where this idea is coming from, but at one point i don't think it makes a lot of difference anymore so i agree with your general concept.
Yeah, I thought about this too, but to me that sounds a bit like double counting: It's a prestigeous tournament, which is something that Polt can stay calm in but his opponent's might not be as composed. That championship gets some serious credit. So we have already inherently valued that prestige factor by giving credit to the winner, no?
On March 21 2016 00:45 RKC wrote: By the way, 'prestige' is simply a way to measure of how seriously players compete in a tournament (prestige here is seen from the perception of players, not viewers - though of course viewer perception can affect player perception).
So you could throw a fun-filled HSC-esque between the top KeSPA players, but it's still not as prestigious as Starleagues.
Ladder is a good example - the best Koreans duke out there on a daily basis, but the rankings and stats don't reflect the true skill and greatness of the players (who may be playing for fun, hiding builds, and saving energy for team-house games which their coaches probably pay more close attention to).
One could argue that it's the same situation for both players, so it shouldn't inherently favor anyone.
Imo it should be seen somewhat like that: is game played in some Premier leauge/tournament? --> both players will nearly always play the best they can and it doesn't really matter which tournament is "more prestigeous". is the game a showmatch, ladder game or in some other form of lesser importance to the player --> one or both player might not take it too seriously. Winning doesn't tell too much about their ultimate greatness.
The basic idea probably is the bigger the potential money you can win, the harder it is to stay calm and focused. Which in itself is one of the most important skills for being a s class player in pretty much every competition you can think of.
So i can see where this idea is coming from, but at one point i don't think it makes a lot of difference anymore so i agree with your general concept.
Yeah, I thought about this too, but to me that sounds a bit like double counting: It's a prestigeous tournament, which is something that Polt can stay calm in but his opponent's might not be as composed. That championship gets some serious credit. So we have already inherently valued that prestige factor by giving credit to the winner, no?
Sure, i am not talking about giving no/any value to it, but more about the general concept "more money = harder to stay composed = harder to win = more prestige for winning it" Which is what a lot of people argue here. It makes some sense, but as i said before at one point i doubt the extra money matters all that much in how serious/nervous you are. And even if it would work like that, the level of competition is simply more important imo. Not giving any credit to the fact that playing live is a lot harder than playing online is kinda weird though, so i disagree with Olli on that (even if we see sick games in these qualifiers and the level of competition is probably harder than at the actual tournament, sc2 is still a competition you usually have to play 'offline' in front of a crowd)
On March 20 2016 17:12 Diabolique wrote: A great result of this discussion is that there is still some passion in Starcraft 2. So maybe, it is not a dead game yet :-)
The amount of passion here certainly suggests it's not! Long may that continue.
If there was to be a list for the Worst Articles of ALL TIME, this one would be top of the list, followed close second and third by Part 2 & Part 1.
I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself...
The real list:
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
On March 21 2016 18:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: If there was to be a list for the Worst Articles of ALL TIME, this one would be top of the list, followed close second and third by Part 2 & Part 1.
I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself...
The real list:
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
On March 18 2016 11:12 BlackZetsu wrote: An absolute joke of a list that belittles the accomplishment of winning the most difficult tournaments and caters solely to fan favorites.
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
On March 21 2016 21:28 Silvana wrote: They both are very fond of using the word "insult" to dismiss others' lists and arguments. Strange indeed...
the interesting part is that they have the exact same list XD
Because it is the right one of course. As Elentos noted, they both say "The real list". Why else would those two different people both write that line? To make sure you understand it is the only valid list.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
On March 21 2016 21:28 Silvana wrote: They both are very fond of using the word "insult" to dismiss others' lists and arguments. Strange indeed...
the interesting part is that they have the exact same list XD
Because it is the right one of course. As Elentos noted, they both say "The real list". Why else would those two different people both write that line? To make sure you understand it is the only valid list.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
Many people on this site agreed on the top3(sOs, Inno, Life). The order was different, but many agreed these are the top3 people result-wise from HotS. And then this happens...
This time the system with Stupoints failed hard and who gives a fuck about his system? Mine is better!
On March 21 2016 18:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: If there was to be a list for the Worst Articles of ALL TIME, this one would be top of the list, followed close second and third by Part 2 & Part 1.
I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself...
The real list:
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
On March 21 2016 18:01 MarianoSC2 wrote: If there was to be a list for the Worst Articles of ALL TIME, this one would be top of the list, followed close second and third by Part 2 & Part 1.
I cant express in words how much of an insult this is to the whole SC2 scene... I only hope the SC2 pros and the real fans of SC2 won't ever read this BS. I couldn't even read it once I saw Taeja + Zest in top 3 and soO in top 5. What a waste of time. The author should be ashamed of himself...
The real list:
The Real Top 15:
1. sOs 2. Life 3. Innovation 4. Classic 5. Maru 6. herO 7. Zest 8. Rain 9. soO 10. Dear 11. Soulkey 12. Byul 13. Parting 14. Polt 15. Taeja
Hey, that's my list! At least give me credit ...
I would put Inno first because Inno was only weak when terrans were extinct (which is understandable, only maru was doing well).
Zerg and Toss were never UP. Terrans were OP for a short time early on, but then were the weakest in late 2013/early 2014 and for all the 2015 year.
The fact that inno was only struggling during WM nerf era is IMO why he should be ahead of sOs.
But not taking balance into account, i can agree with your list.
I would maybe put Taeja slightly higher, Classic slightly lower but thats nto a big deal
On March 21 2016 18:30 Olli wrote: I really like how you argued for that list of yours. You completely convinced me.
just like you convinced every one that winning a KR qualifier is more important/impressive than winning Blizzcon because Prestige is 100% irrelevant. Kappa
On March 21 2016 18:30 Olli wrote: I really like how you argued for that list of yours. You completely convinced me.
just like you convinced every one that winning a KR qualifier is more important/impressive than winning Blizzcon because Prestige is 100% irrelevant. Kappa
User was warned for this post
That's a grotesque distortion of what I said. But if you wanna go there - there have indeed been more impressive runs through IEM qualifiers than any of the three Blizzcon winning runs. They just happened to be less prestigious. I don't care though, we're ranking skill, not fame.
The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
Firmly disagree. First off, I think Zest's individual achievements compare favorably to Classic straight up. Don't see the rational way even the strongest Classic fan could argue anything more than a wash at best.
Which brings us to the role/results for each in PL the last two years of HOTS (2014 & 2015) when both rose up to power (both in team and individual league play).
Classic was a solid rotational player/borderline starter in 2014 w/ good results for the SKT superteam (overshadowed by Rain and PartinG). Became a big member of their core five in 2015 and strongly contributed to SKT's complete domination the entire season.
Zest's sudden rise to fame began w/ his stunning all-kill of the vaunted SKT in the 2014 R1 playoff finals against SKT. Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate foundational star for KT following that and co-ace w/ Flash for a KT team that would beat the odds to upset the SKT superteam in the GF. Became the undisputed ace player for the defending champions in 2015 and was #1 in winner's rankings (28-15, 65% win rate, positive win rates in every matchup). Absolutely dominant for stretches and was repeatedly sent out against the very best opposition.
And finally, for the eye test (and no, not in the way you were oddly claiming in Part 2 where you suggested that switching their physical appearance would result in everyone realizing that Classic was superior, before you somewhat retracted that by claiming it was joke, but still held some truth, after quickly being called out by multiple people, myself included).
Classic as he grew into power specifically excelled in playing very defensive and taking it to the late game, where he excelled at maxed army unit control/composition, especially mass tempest (and where P in the latter stages of HOTS was unquestionably the strongest). His talent was obvious, but never seemed to strike fear into the hearts of his opponents in any game I watched, despite usually winning. He was one of numerous great players on a historically stacked team, who frequently came through when his number was called.
Zest on the other hand, had a clear aura around him upon his rise (again, this has zero to do w/ physical appearance). Every single time he stepped into the booth and the camera would pan to his opponent or their team preparing, the viewers got the clear sense that they were hoping for a miracle, and defeat appeared imminent. His playstyle was a ruthless mix of superior mechanics and strategy, and didn't require taking it to the very late game like Classic to cut down his opposition. He was the best player on a very solid team, who wanted (and everyone else knew was going to get) the ball in crunch time w/ the shot-clock running down. That type of constant pressure, to shoulder the load every single time required, is something only the absolute greatest at any sport can withstand (and thrive in).
Your implied notion (that Classic was a greater champion because of his multiple starleague titles a full year apart, whereas Zest was a patch-toss of the blink era) is incorrect. Zest was still arguably the strongest P in Korea throughout 2015 (after being the clear-cut best player in the world from mid-late 2014) based on the totality of his work. In addition to dominating PL, he won the ultra stacked IEM WC that year (went through Hydra, Inno, Bbyong, Trap) for the almost $69k grand prize.
This entire debate is only over HOTS (even though numerous folks keep confusing WOL and LOTV achievements as part of it). But when taking an even longer holistic view from mid/later HOTS to present, the difference is even more stark. While some familiar previous top players have fallen off, and other lesser ones have risen up thus far in LOTV, Zest is remarkably still the obvious best P in the world. And arguably the best player overall based on overall record/accomplishments.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. 'Became an immediate core lineup regular'
Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
He actually all kill-ed STX Soul the year before as well so he was a regular I would say
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir! You are correct on all counts. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). And unequivocally demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go (as you said).
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (when I only very lightly followed, have since watched every single game of every single match from the start of 2014 PL to present). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put too much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games/lack of general balance/and fluid meta (although the top ten winner's ranking for that season is basically a who's who of numerous all-time BW/SC2 greats). But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual errors).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir!. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). But it also demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go.
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (before I started following). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games. But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual error).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
Well, glad we cleared this one without throwing a tantrum. And yeah, this actually supports Zest somewhat. Although I always feel direct comparisons are weird to make :S
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir!. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). But it also demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go.
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (before I started following). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games. But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual error).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
Well, glad we cleared this one without throwing a tantrum. And yeah, this actually supports Zest somewhat. Although I always feel direct comparisons are weird to make :S
Got pretty used to dealing w/ folks using illogical reasoning on here and respewing stuff they see without understanding it at all, so didn't recognize actual facts when they were staring me in the face. You're a knowledgeable KT fan.
And I'll probably soon be accused by others of being a Zest/KT fanboy. Despite being neither. I understand why BlackZetsu and a few others are arguing for Classic so strongly. He has some seriously impressive bling. And has a clear-cut case to be in everyone's top ten, with definite wiggle room upward.
I just feel Zest's superior achievements (amid much greater pressure) put him on another level (#5 in my S class tier) + Show Spoiler +
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
, while Classic is on the one right below along w/ Rain, PartinG, and Taeja (the order of which is largely inconsequential to me). All four of whom are deserved champions and the absolute best of everyone else that ever touched HOTS.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
(sorry for all the brackets in advance)
I only linked it once in this thread and the dataset in the blog is not updated so no problemo. But I did that just now and this is the final evaluation only counting HotS tournaments (no teamleagues/proleague included; only top4 score). The same point system from a year ago when I originally wrote the blog is used (so no biased change in system just to justify some of my arguments).
Here are all players that scored more than 2 points (if someone important is missing tell me and I will look up his points, I haven't implemented an automated compare function yet, should maybe do that sometime).
Life - 5.891667 INnoVation - 5.075 Maru - 4.65 herO - 4.583333 sOs - 4.575 soO - 4.25 TaeJa - 4.0 Rain - 3.816667 Polt - 3.591667 Zest - 3.5 Jaedong - 3.475 MMA - 3.391667 Classic - 3.383333 ByuL - 2.875 PartinG - 2.85 Soulkey - 2.816667 Bomber - 2.741667 HyuN - 2.683333 Dear - 2.5 MC - 2.166667 (mistakes when copying all the stats from liquipedia are obviously possible)
The Five Tiers of Tournaments: Tier 1 - Preparation tournaments of the highest level of their time with a certain factor of exclusiveness usually granted through a tough qualification process. E.g. GSL, WCS KR, NSSL 2012-2015, OSL 2013
Tier 2 - Tournaments that for a certain reason (e.g. lack of preparation time or too high frequency of the tournament in a year) do not make Tier 1. E.g. GSL 2011, OSL 2012, WCS Blizzcon Finals
Tier 3 - Similar to Tier 2 tournaments which are usually below T1 and T2 tournaments in tournament length, price pool and prestige, yet still feature the absolute top players in the world. E.g. Hot6ix Cup, GSL Blizzard Cup, IEM WC 2014 & 2015, GSL World Championship 2011, WCS AM, WCS EU, WCS Global, Kespa Cup
Tier 4 - Frequent Premier Tournament Series which usually include a lot of traveling, no preparation time for opponents and are usually held at LAN events. E.g. MLG, DH, IEM
Tier 5 - Like Tier 4, but with a weaker player line up, a very small bracket or less of a competetive character. Basically all the other tournaments that are not listed in the other Tiers. E.g. HomeStoryCup, Red Bull Battlegrounds, MLG/DH/IEMs with weak player line ups.
For each placement as 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player in an SC2 Premier Tournament, said player gets points. Tier 1 - 1 point/0.75points/0.5points/0.5points Tier 2 - 0.8 points/0.6points/0.4points/0.4points Tier 3 - 0.5 points/0.375points/0.25points/0.25points Tier 4 - 0.33 points/0.25points/0.17points/0.17points Tier 5 - 0.15 points/0.1points/0.075points/0.075points
So, to put it into perspective: you need three Dreamhack championships to match the points of one Code S champion. For every one point a player has, he has achieved as much as Seed. A player that won one Tier 1 GSL, but never ever placed top4 elsewhere.
Disclaimer: Since, as I wrote before, proleague and <Ro4 results are missing this is not my final ranking for players, but this would be the baseline to create one. Basically by finding ways to include proleague and doing all the necessary work to enlarge my database with lower tournament rounds.
On March 22 2016 03:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Rain was a 'foreign Korean' at that time. His personal and team's priorities do not represent the common KeSPA Koreans. He's almost like Taeja, except that he balances priorities between foreign tournaments and Starleagues much better.
Dream was deeper into SSL than GSL. Of course he would prioritise SSL more, being already at the knockout stage and closer to winning SSL than GSL.
Not saying that KeSPA Koreans should be the ultimate authority of 'prestige'. Just so happens that they make out the majority of the top players, and 'prestige' is decided by the majority. It's just how it is. As much as the minority like Polt, Hydra and Taeja may beg to differ, they can't assert true superiority until they fight their fellow Koreans on their turf - which is where the highest standard of competition is at. Chile beating Argentina in the COPA on home soil can never be better than Argentina finishing runners-up in the World Cup.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
(sorry for all the brackets in advance)
I only linked it once in this thread and the dataset in the blog is not updated so no problemo. But I did that just now and this is the final evaluation only counting HotS tournaments (no teamleagues/proleague included; only top4 score). The same point system from a year ago when I originally wrote the blog is used (so no biased change in system just to justify some of my arguments).
Here are all players that scored more than 2 points (if someone important is missing tell me and I will look up his points, I haven't implemented an automated compare function yet, should maybe do that sometime).
Life - 5.891667 INnoVation - 5.075 Maru - 4.65 herO - 4.583333 sOs - 4.575 soO - 4.25 TaeJa - 4.0 Rain - 3.816667 Polt - 3.591667 Zest - 3.5 Jaedong - 3.475 MMA - 3.391667 Classic - 3.383333 ByuL - 2.875 PartinG - 2.85 Soulkey - 2.816667 Bomber - 2.741667 HyuN - 2.683333 Dear - 2.5 MC - 2.166667 (mistakes when copying all the stats from liquipedia are obviously possible)
The Five Tiers of Tournaments: Tier 1 - Preparation tournaments of the highest level of their time with a certain factor of exclusiveness usually granted through a tough qualification process. E.g. GSL, WCS KR, NSSL 2012-2015, OSL 2013
Tier 2 - Tournaments that for a certain reason (e.g. lack of preparation time or too high frequency of the tournament in a year) do not make Tier 1. E.g. GSL 2011, OSL 2012, WCS Blizzcon Finals
Tier 3 - Similar to Tier 2 tournaments which are usually below T1 and T2 tournaments in tournament length, price pool and prestige, yet still feature the absolute top players in the world. E.g. Hot6ix Cup, GSL Blizzard Cup, IEM WC 2014 & 2015, GSL World Championship 2011, WCS AM, WCS EU, WCS Global, Kespa Cup
Tier 4 - Frequent Premier Tournament Series which usually include a lot of traveling, no preparation time for opponents and are usually held at LAN events. E.g. MLG, DH, IEM
Tier 5 - Like Tier 4, but with a weaker player line up, a very small bracket or less of a competetive character. Basically all the other tournaments that are not listed in the other Tiers. E.g. HomeStoryCup, Red Bull Battlegrounds, MLG/DH/IEMs with weak player line ups.
For each placement as 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player in an SC2 Premier Tournament, said player gets points. Tier 1 - 1 point/0.75points/0.5points/0.5points Tier 2 - 0.8 points/0.6points/0.4points/0.4points Tier 3 - 0.5 points/0.375points/0.25points/0.25points Tier 4 - 0.33 points/0.25points/0.17points/0.17points Tier 5 - 0.15 points/0.1points/0.075points/0.075points
So, to put it into perspective: you need three Dreamhack championships to match the points of one Code S champion. For every one point a player has, he has achieved as much as Seed. A player that won one Tier 1 GSL, but never ever placed top4 elsewhere.
Disclaimer: Since, as I wrote before, proleague and <Ro4 results are missing this is not my final ranking for players, but this would be the baseline to create one. Basically by finding ways to include proleague and doing all the necessary work to enlarge my database with lower tournament rounds.
Great list, great effort!
Now, this is a list I can live with (despite a few eyebrow-raising surprises). Good to see Maru and soO high up there, given their crazy consistency in Starleagues and not being marked down too much for their lack of foreign tournament exposure. And sOs is fairly placed too, even with his lack of Starleague deep runs.
Not sure why you relegate a GSL and OSL into Tier 2, though.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
On March 22 2016 06:47 Orr wrote: Defeating Rain, Soulkey, soO, and PartinG in dominating succession. Became an immediate core lineup regular for KT following that
This, for the record, is historically inaccurate. Zest was PL regular way before he all-killed SKT.
Reading comprehension is important. Yes Zest had had limited PL success previously. No, he was not an important part of the KT puzzle prior to that. All the buzz prior to the R1 playoff finals that season, was about TY and his dazzling 7-0 start. And KT's core was clearly Flash/TY/Stats. Zest was nothing more than a role player along the lines of Myungsik and Action.
Good grief. He was one of KT's core players in the 2012-2013 season - which even though it was at least partly HotS, nobody in this thread seems to acknowledge. He already got fielded almost every week before his all-kill. He was fielded for an ace match for KT before his all-kill. He was not a role player. And your statement there doesn't become more true if you make it bold.
Yes, ever since then he was fielded slightly more often per round, but that also might have to do with the fact that he was the best player on the team and won GSL.
If anything, the one who became an "immediate core lineup regular" that round was TY, who was new to the team.
Apologies good sir!. My memory seems to have strongly mislead me. I stand corrected! Just looked over the R1 regular season stats for 2014. KT went an extremely impressive 6-1 (20-9 games record) for +11 overall.
Out of 7 possible matches: Flash fielded 7x (2 ace matches, won both) TY fielded 7x (perfect record) Stats 5x Zest 5x (1 ace match, lost to Maru) Myungsik 2x Action 2x
So the data does clearly bear out your claim that Zest was a regular lineup player against my incorrect assertion (that he was in the Myungsik/Action suppoting class). But it also demonstrates that TY was an immediate core player from the get-go.
Also went back and looked at the statistics for 2012-2013 PL season (before I started following). Zest #7 overall on winner's rankings for KT, 29-17 63% win-rate, great in vP and vZ). Think it's fair to not put much weight into the results given the difficult in-season transition period between games. But his results/role are impressive nonetheless. And further validate your point (and my factual error).
Ultimately, all of this (rather ironically) only strengthens my previous comparison between Classic and Zest. Go figure.
Well, glad we cleared this one without throwing a tantrum. And yeah, this actually supports Zest somewhat. Although I always feel direct comparisons are weird to make :S
Got pretty used to dealing w/ folks using illogical reasoning on here and respewing stuff they see without understanding it at all, so didn't recognize actual facts when they were staring me in the face. You're a knowledgeable KT fan.
And I'll probably soon be accused by others of being a Zest/KT fanboy. Despite being neither. I understand why BlackZetsu and a few others are arguing for Classic so strongly. He has some seriously impressive bling. And has a clear-cut case to be in everyone's top ten, with definite wiggle room upward.
I just feel Zest's superior achievements (amid much greater pressure) put him on another level (#5 in my S class tier) + Show Spoiler +
My final HOTS S class tier: 7) soO 6) herO 5) Zest 4) Maru 3) Life 2) sOs 1) Inno
, while Classic is on the one right below along w/ Rain, PartinG, and Taeja (the order of which is largely inconsequential to me). All four of whom are deserved champions and the absolute best of everyone else that ever touched HOTS.
your list is the best i have seen so far, if only stuchiu made a decent one too .....
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
Once you are enlightened you will see how Classic>Zest because Starleagues matter more than anything else and sOs @1 because who gives a fuck about Starleagues?!?!?
This is perhaps the starkest contrast between the guy who excels at “winning the big one” versus the guy who “wins a lot.” Zest has 3 secondary titles to match his GSL championship (IEM Katowice, Kespa Cup and GSL Global Tourney), while Classic only has IEM Shenzhen. Zest was the star of his team for Proleague, while Classic was merely a solid contributor. Zest regularly made it farther in GSL and SSL, while Classic made it to the Round of 4 at Blizzcon twice.
How you weigh these results is a matter of personal judgment, but there’s one more factor to consider: nearly all of Zest’s championships happened in a 6 month span from April 2014 to September 2014, indicating that there was a period when he “figured out” the game, but afterwards, the game figured out him. Classic, on the other hand, won his second starleague a full 12 months after his first. Champions rise and fall, but true champions rise again. Classic deserves the edge over Zest.
I don't think your categorization show the real comparison well. Summarizing tournament results in a year and then giving advantages forgoes the whole weighting.
In my point system Zest has a small advantage: Zest 3.50 - 3.38 Classic The system doesn't consider placements our tournament participations lower than Ro4 or proleague which heavily favors Classic already, over an even broader consideration.
What you argue in favor of Classic - Zest's peak - could be argued to be an advantage as well. Hardly any other player peaked as hard as Zest did in HotS, maybe with the exception of Life, making him one of the only contenders for a Bonjwa in SC2. Not to mention that, if Zest ever wins something again, the whole argument that he was only good that one time breaks down. Which isn't really true to begin with, because he had quite some good results afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have made it to blizzcon 2015 to begin with.
Sorry I don't recall seeing your point system. Can you please post it again?
(sorry for all the brackets in advance)
I only linked it once in this thread and the dataset in the blog is not updated so no problemo. But I did that just now and this is the final evaluation only counting HotS tournaments (no teamleagues/proleague included; only top4 score). The same point system from a year ago when I originally wrote the blog is used (so no biased change in system just to justify some of my arguments).
Here are all players that scored more than 2 points (if someone important is missing tell me and I will look up his points, I haven't implemented an automated compare function yet, should maybe do that sometime).
Life - 5.891667 INnoVation - 5.075 Maru - 4.65 herO - 4.583333 sOs - 4.575 soO - 4.25 TaeJa - 4.0 Rain - 3.816667 Polt - 3.591667 Zest - 3.5 Jaedong - 3.475 MMA - 3.391667 Classic - 3.383333 ByuL - 2.875 PartinG - 2.85 Soulkey - 2.816667 Bomber - 2.741667 HyuN - 2.683333 Dear - 2.5 MC - 2.166667 (mistakes when copying all the stats from liquipedia are obviously possible)
The Five Tiers of Tournaments: Tier 1 - Preparation tournaments of the highest level of their time with a certain factor of exclusiveness usually granted through a tough qualification process. E.g. GSL, WCS KR, NSSL 2012-2015, OSL 2013
Tier 2 - Tournaments that for a certain reason (e.g. lack of preparation time or too high frequency of the tournament in a year) do not make Tier 1. E.g. GSL 2011, OSL 2012, WCS Blizzcon Finals
Tier 3 - Similar to Tier 2 tournaments which are usually below T1 and T2 tournaments in tournament length, price pool and prestige, yet still feature the absolute top players in the world. E.g. Hot6ix Cup, GSL Blizzard Cup, IEM WC 2014 & 2015, GSL World Championship 2011, WCS AM, WCS EU, WCS Global, Kespa Cup
Tier 4 - Frequent Premier Tournament Series which usually include a lot of traveling, no preparation time for opponents and are usually held at LAN events. E.g. MLG, DH, IEM
Tier 5 - Like Tier 4, but with a weaker player line up, a very small bracket or less of a competetive character. Basically all the other tournaments that are not listed in the other Tiers. E.g. HomeStoryCup, Red Bull Battlegrounds, MLG/DH/IEMs with weak player line ups.
For each placement as 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th player in an SC2 Premier Tournament, said player gets points. Tier 1 - 1 point/0.75points/0.5points/0.5points Tier 2 - 0.8 points/0.6points/0.4points/0.4points Tier 3 - 0.5 points/0.375points/0.25points/0.25points Tier 4 - 0.33 points/0.25points/0.17points/0.17points Tier 5 - 0.15 points/0.1points/0.075points/0.075points
So, to put it into perspective: you need three Dreamhack championships to match the points of one Code S champion. For every one point a player has, he has achieved as much as Seed. A player that won one Tier 1 GSL, but never ever placed top4 elsewhere.
Disclaimer: Since, as I wrote before, proleague and <Ro4 results are missing this is not my final ranking for players, but this would be the baseline to create one. Basically by finding ways to include proleague and doing all the necessary work to enlarge my database with lower tournament rounds.
Great list, great effort!
Now, this is a list I can live with (despite a few eyebrow-raising surprises). Good to see Maru and soO high up there, given their crazy consistency in Starleagues and not being marked down too much for their lack of foreign tournament exposure. And sOs is fairly placed too, even with his lack of Starleague deep runs.
Not sure why you relegate a GSL and OSL into Tier 2, though.
The GSLs and OSLs in Tier 2 are from WoL and irrelevant for these HotS only stats. The reasons for them not being T1 are because 2011 GSL was more frequent and thus every tournament counts slightly less. 2012 OSL was a bit odd in terms of qualification process. Keep in mind T2 tournaments are nearly giving as many points as T1 ones.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
WCS AM was more than 50% Koreans and held in a preparation format. EU was quite similar. Legitimately tough to win, that one, way tougher than 2015 WCS, which is why I wouldn't relegate it.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
Kespa Cup obviously features better players, but the tournament structure is one of a smaller tournament with only 4 rounds played in a short timeframe and 50% invites. WCS EU/AM had huge qualifiers, 32 players with group and elemination bracket and long preparation times and the level of competition was still quite high at the top.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
Jaedong (#11) is way, way too high. And the Tyrant was my favorite BW player ever. He has some decent SC2 results against decidedly underwhelming foreign competition but nothing particularly noteworthy, and completely lacks any impressive titles. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG, and world-class players like Dear, Byul, Soulkey, and even Bomber is laughable. He's outside the top 20, and similar to Hyun.
MMA (#12) is so inspiring and impossible to not root for (going out a champion!). But doesn't belong anywhere near the top 15. And I'd put MMA clearly above Jaedong for his multiple foreign titles. Think a lot of people are confusing his overall SC2 excellence (especially his great WOL days) w/ being a top tier HOTS player.
Polt (#9) as previously pointed out is also clearly out of place on the list (I'm a huge fan). His timelessness as InControl said after his latest WCS title is incredible. As is his ability to figure out how to thrive in seemingly broken metas. His numerous WCS and foreign titles are impressive but against mostly mediocre foreign competition. Having him above superstars like Classic and PartinG is crazy. He's firmly in the Dear, Bomber, Byul, Soulkey, and Solar tier for me. But there's definitely an argument for being just outside the top 10 given his longevity, sustained excellence, and actual incredible hardware (albeit against weaker foreign opposition).
Hyun (#18) is a great story of longevity and perseverance. And has some solid results against poor foreign competition. I'd have him above Jaedong but both are basically irrelevant to me in any GOAT HOTS discussion.
MC (#20) is a great performer and awesome personality but other than his big WCS title in 2014, hasn't done anything of importance since WOL. Clearly outside the top 20 for me and irrelevant for this discussion.
***I'd put Solar (way, way better results), Stats, Dream, and Curious all clearly above Hyun, Jaedong, and BossToss.
I think it's because WCS AM and WCS EU are weighted rather favourably (at the same level of KeSPA Cup). Personally, I would relegate them to Tier 4.
Kespa Cup obviously features better players, but the tournament structure is one of a smaller tournament with only 4 rounds played in a short timeframe and 50% invites. WCS EU/AM had huge qualifiers, 32 players with group and elemination bracket and long preparation times and the level of competition was still quite high at the top.
WCS EU/AM started out quite competitively, but faded over the years. Isn't their tournament format mixed? The knockout rounds from RO8 onwards were done over a weekend, for some of the tourneys. The mixed format bothers me somewhat.
The part of the list I have issues most with is the middle - Rain, Zest and Classic are definitely a level above MC, Polt and Jaedong... and yes, slightly over Taeja too.
Zest v Classic is a good teaser. There was some debate going on earlier in the thread. I can't quite decide who edges over who. They're really quite close. Rain sits slightly above them, I feel.
Zest beats Classic quite easily. He was dominant for an entire year, then even at his worst won IEM Katowice. Then went on to hard carry KT in Proleague. Classic was always good, and I've loved him long time, but he can't touch Zest in either achievements, consistency or peak skill, even despite the individual league hiccups in early 2015.
On March 22 2016 23:24 Olli wrote: Zest beats Classic quite easily. He was dominant for an entire year, then even at his worst won IEM Katowice. Then went on to hard carry KT in Proleague. Classic was always good, and I've loved him long time, but he can't touch Zest in either achievements, consistency or peak skill, even despite the individual league hiccups in early 2015.
Somehow, Zest's achievements seem to be clustered within a 6 month peak period (except for the IEM which came out of the blue), almost like Dear. True, they (including Classic) had alarming dips of form. But Zest's and Dear's dips seem to last longer.
Okay, I would probably give the edge to Zest too, ultimately.
Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that.
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
the fact that polt has more points than zest shows there are some flaws with your system Anyway it's impossible to have an objective list because everyone rates different things differently. I think the closest to an objective list we'd get through a poll.
This list looks pretty solid in comparison to that of stuchiu, which was obviously altered in a way in order to put taeja up as high as possible.
Innovation & Maru were undoubtedly the #1 and #2 terrans of HOTS. There is nothing to debate about. Stuchiu doesn't seem to understand that foreigner tournaments were of lesser importance for GSL/Proleague Koreans like Innovation and therefore the causal chain: innovation beats GSL - taeja beats innovation - taeja better innovation/GSL, isn't worth a penny but this is the result he is showing in this ranking.
A solid system to evaluate results can be achieved when taking into account not only the objective tier level of a tournament/league but also the individual rank that the thing had for a certain player at a certain point of time. Those dreamhacks etc. that were the highest tier for taeja while he was abroad were at the same time the lowest tier for those GSL/Proleague players who traveled there to participate in.
It is sad to see that TL needs to make up rankings and be biased towards own team members. This isn't right especially in the context of matchfixing and times of hard standing of SC2 in terms of popularity. This way TL is losing the trust of its users. Taeja doesn't deserve this. He was at that one year one of the best. But HOTS went longer than that year and taeja didn't prove him being #2 in this ranking in GSLs, WCS', Blizzcons which others did. He deserves top 10 overall but rating him higher than inno and maru? In no way this can be justified.
Anyway, what is left to ppl. who read this is only to attach few importance to it. If that was the goal of TL than I'd say: mission accomplished. Noone who has a deeper idea of SC2 can agree with this ranking no matter how much you try to make it look serious and explain the weighting.
On March 22 2016 23:48 Olli wrote: Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that.
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
Despite how trashed Taeja is getting and Zest too, I'm really enjoying this thread. To see so many people rallying behind sOs, who was insulted so many times in the past for his choice of strats, and Classic who almost all of us laughed at in the LR threads when he looked awful and was called a patchtoss sometimes... It feels like TL has matured (a bit ).
On March 22 2016 23:48 Olli wrote: Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that.
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
You should do a list for the Protoss Dragons
Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it
So is the implication that if Kespa retroactively takes away all of Life's titles because he threw a few PL games then we will no longer consider him the best player in hots? I get that kespa has to formally take the titles away to punish him (if he's in fact found guilty) but are we really gonna shut our eyes and pretend that his wins didn't happen anymore? Seems more than a bit strange and idealistic.
On March 22 2016 23:48 Olli wrote: Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that.
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
You should do a list for the Protoss Dragons
Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it
On March 22 2016 23:48 Olli wrote: Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that.
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
You should do a list for the Protoss Dragons
Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it
Sometimes I wonder if TL writers thrive on hate and controversy
As long as HerO isn't Top 5 (Zest, sOs, Classic, Rain & herO), I won't be hating.
(You could rank HerO ahead of Parting, just to bait the Big Boy)
On March 22 2016 23:48 Olli wrote: Zest made at least the quarterfinals of every tournament he entered in 2014 bar Blizzcon where he lost 3-2 to the eventual champion. Then didn't qualify for either GSL/SSL Season 1, but won IEM Katowice. Then it's all at least quarterfinals again while he topped the Proleague winners rankings for the season. The only hiccups Zest had were in Season 1 2015, he was always one of the absolute best aside from that.
Classic is closer to him than Rain imo. I think Rain's peak got closest to Zest's during last year's playoffs when he looked essentially unbeatable. But then Zest 3-0d him in GSL and that was that. Compared to Zest, Rain straight up lacks the achievements though.
You should do a list for the Protoss Dragons
Best protoss of all time? Can't do that, I'd put HerO quite high and would get hate for it
Sometimes I wonder if TL writers thrive on hate and controversy
As long as HerO isn't Top 5 (Zest, sOs, Classic, Rain & herO), I won't be hating.
(You could rank HerO ahead of Parting, just to bait the Big Boy)
It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 23 2016 00:22 Yorkie wrote: So is the implication that if Kespa retroactively takes away all of Life's titles because he threw a few PL games then we will no longer consider him the best player in hots? I get that kespa has to formally take the titles away to punish him (if he's in fact found guilty) but are we really gonna shut our eyes and pretend that his wins didn't happen anymore? Seems more than a bit strange and idealistic.
This is a very good question. And the complete lack of silence since Life has been taken in for questioning is unsettling.
I don't think we (the passionate community) should do anything until any definitive resolution is reached in his case, and the possible crimes/outcomes laid out to see/examine.
As for now, his achievements fully stand in my eyes (#3 on my HOTS S class tier, and GOAT for the totality of SC2), despite his legacy being almost irrevocably tarnished. If it does come out in the future that he was directly involved in altering his own games (in PL and/or individual tournaments) and/or those of his direct competitors in any tournament(s), I'll have to reassess after factoring in the evidence.
Unless it's shown that he unfairly won game(s) because his opponent took a willing fall (highly unlikely considering his superior talent level, and how match-fixing overwhelmingly works), his achievements will still likely stand for me in their entirety. Despite the terrible damage he will have inflicted on the entire SC2 scene.
On March 23 2016 00:22 Yorkie wrote: So is the implication that if Kespa retroactively takes away all of Life's titles because he threw a few PL games then we will no longer consider him the best player in hots? I get that kespa has to formally take the titles away to punish him (if he's in fact found guilty) but are we really gonna shut our eyes and pretend that his wins didn't happen anymore? Seems more than a bit strange and idealistic.
This is a very good question. And the complete lack of silence since Life has been taken in for questioning is unsettling.
I don't think we (the passionate community) should do anything until any definitive resolution is reached in his case, and the possible crimes/outcomes laid out to see/examine.
As for now, his achievements fully stand in my eyes (#3 on my HOTS S class tier, and GOAT for the totality of SC2), despite his legacy being almost irrevocably tarnished. If it does come out in the future that he was directly involved in altering his own games (in PL and/or individual tournaments) and/or those of his direct competitors in any tournament(s), I'll have to reassess after factoring in the evidence.
Unless it's shown that he unfairly won game(s) because his opponent took a willing fall (highly unlikely considering his superior talent level, and how match-fixing overwhelmingly works), his achievements will still likely stand for me in their entirety. Despite the terrible damage he will have inflicted on the entire SC2 scene.
I think this is a discussion for another place and time. It sounds like a lot of "ifs".
On March 23 2016 00:22 Yorkie wrote: So is the implication that if Kespa retroactively takes away all of Life's titles because he threw a few PL games then we will no longer consider him the best player in hots? I get that kespa has to formally take the titles away to punish him (if he's in fact found guilty) but are we really gonna shut our eyes and pretend that his wins didn't happen anymore? Seems more than a bit strange and idealistic.
This is a very good question. And the complete lack of silence since Life has been taken in for questioning is unsettling.
I don't think we (the passionate community) should do anything until any definitive resolution is reached in his case, and the possible crimes/outcomes laid out to see/examine.
As for now, his achievements fully stand in my eyes (#3 on my HOTS S class tier, and GOAT for the totality of SC2), despite his legacy being almost irrevocably tarnished. If it does come out in the future that he was directly involved in altering his own games (in PL and/or individual tournaments) and/or those of his direct competitors in any tournament(s), I'll have to reassess after factoring in the evidence.
Unless it's shown that he unfairly won game(s) because his opponent took a willing fall (highly unlikely considering his superior talent level, and how match-fixing overwhelmingly works), his achievements will still likely stand for me in their entirety. Despite the terrible damage he will have inflicted on the entire SC2 scene.
I think this is a discussion for another place and time. It sounds like a lot of "ifs".
It's definitely something that needs to discussed later in depth once more comes to light. Pretty eerie how he was taken into police custody almost two months ago regarding possible match-fixing, and nary a peep has been heard since from perhaps the highest profile SC2 player ever.
But I think Yorkie's question still has significant merit here. Lots of this discussion is just back and forth over various top-ten caliber players being ranked a few places too high or low (namely Taeja and Classic it seems). Whereas this involves the #1 player on the entire HOTS power rankings. Stuchiu says he's easily the GOAT in HOTS, and has him #2 in his GOAT for all of SC2 (whereas many of us seem to clearly think Life is the very best ever).
If this happened to someone in the Soulkey, Dear, or Bomber level tier, it would still be huge news w/ powerful ramifications but wouldn't fundamentally alter the purposes of this discussion. But we are talking about probably the greatest player in the history of SC2. And for the purposes of this HOTS era debate, clearly someone who is at minimum firmly entrenched in the top three, w/ a legit case for being the very best (where Stuchiu puts him).
And the original question had nothing to do w/ possible guilt or not. Just how to view his placement both now, and in the future depending on the outcome. And I provided my response earlier.
On March 23 2016 00:40 Olli wrote: It'd be tough cause I was never that impressed with MC despite all his winnings. He did things that shouldn't work and sometimes didn't work, but often did. The ranking would depend heavily on criteria and, if you wanna call it that, personal bias.
Might look into it though. It's much easier if you rank them matchup specific (compared to their respective opposition).
On March 22 2016 03:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Rain was a 'foreign Korean' at that time. His personal and team's priorities do not represent the common KeSPA Koreans. He's almost like Taeja, except that he balances priorities between foreign tournaments and Starleagues much better.
Dream was deeper into SSL than GSL. Of course he would prioritise SSL more, being already at the knockout stage and closer to winning SSL than GSL.
Not saying that KeSPA Koreans should be the ultimate authority of 'prestige'. Just so happens that they make out the majority of the top players, and 'prestige' is decided by the majority. It's just how it is. As much as the minority like Polt, Hydra and Taeja may beg to differ, they can't assert true superiority until they fight their fellow Koreans on their turf - which is where the highest standard of competition is at. Chile beating Argentina in the COPA on home soil can never be better than Argentina finishing runners-up in the World Cup.
Which is why, despite being a 'foreign korean', Rain is better than any other runner (PartinG, Fantasy, Soulkey, Polt, Hydra, Jaedong, Taeja) because he won a GSL (funnily enough he only won a GSL after leaving a KeSPa team) AND ALMOST WINNING SSL, (if Rain won against herO, he would've smashed Byul again in SSL finals).
Parting, Fantasy and Soulkey might have winning records against Rain after they left SKT, but none of them (maybe PartinG) got even close to Rain's achievements in 2015 (GSL win, HSC win, semi-final in SSL, and Rain being the only one of the four to beat Life in an offline event after his Global Finals win)
On March 22 2016 03:49 thecrazymunchkin wrote: The awkward argument here is that what we generally imply when we quote 'prestige' is that we link how hard players try / how much pressure they overcome to the tournament.
But even that runs into issues; you've got examples of people like Dream last year, who lost 2-0 to herO in the GSL Ro16 last year, before smashing him 4-0 in the SSL the very next day with strategies he'd hidden the day before. You've got Rain forfeiting a GSL Code S spot in favour of MLG.
That completely contradicts our surface level assumption that the GSL is the most prestigious league in the world; to truly understand the bigger picture requires something more in depth than simply rolling off results from liquipedia; it requires a lot more understanding than anyone not intimately connected with the Korean scene can likely obtain.
That's not to say that I completely agree with Olli; I do think that winning in Starcraft isn't completely about being the better player, and the mindgames that come with the high pressure environment are certainly part of it. But to assume that certain events aren't prestigious and ignoring any of the results that come from them is wrong. In any case, I think it's definitely wrong to blindly bind DH / IEMs together; it's clear that not all of them are equal - just look at the abomination that was IEM gamescom. In general, DH Winter / IEM Katowice (2014/2015) are on a different tier, and then the others depend highly on the player base in attendance
Rain was a 'foreign Korean' at that time. His personal and team's priorities do not represent the common KeSPA Koreans. He's almost like Taeja, except that he balances priorities between foreign tournaments and Starleagues much better.
Dream was deeper into SSL than GSL. Of course he would prioritise SSL more, being already at the knockout stage and closer to winning SSL than GSL.
Not saying that KeSPA Koreans should be the ultimate authority of 'prestige'. Just so happens that they make out the majority of the top players, and 'prestige' is decided by the majority. It's just how it is. As much as the minority like Polt, Hydra and Taeja may beg to differ, they can't assert true superiority until they fight their fellow Koreans on their turf - which is where the highest standard of competition is at. Chile beating Argentina in the COPA on home soil can never be better than Argentina finishing runners-up in the World Cup.
Which is why, despite being a 'foreign korean', Rain is better than any other runner (PartinG, Fantasy, Soulkey, Polt, Hydra, Jaedong, Taeja) because he won a GSL (funnily enough he only won a GSL after leaving a KeSPa team) AND ALMOST WINNING SSL, (if Rain won against herO, he would've smashed Byul again in SSL finals).
Parting, Fantasy and Soulkey might have winning records against Rain after they left SKT, but none of them (maybe PartinG) got even close to Rain's achievements in 2015 (GSL win, HSC win, semi-final in SSL, and Rain being the only one of the four to beat Life in an offline event after his Global Finals win)
Rain no. 1 in my heart too
He was one of the BW players who transitioned almost seamlessly and wrecked eSF players (winning OSL). He has been consistent since day one of post-BW and stayed strong till the end of HoTS. It's not hard to imagine him winning more stuff, had he transitioned to SC2 earlier.
Plus he has the looks too (seems like Protoss is the most handsomest race - Zest, herO, and yes, BISU!!!)
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
On March 23 2016 14:13 BlackZetsu wrote: Hey Guys,
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
Somehow I left out sOs' Hot6 Cup and 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena championships - I would rank them both the same as a regular IEM/Dreamhack for this purpose (although arguably Hot6 Cup should be ranked higher). That would put sOs even further ahead.
Apparently you need to get to the gsl finals 15 times to have accomplished as much as winning blizzcon once. That sums up the quality of your point values
On March 23 2016 14:13 BlackZetsu wrote: Hey Guys,
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
Somehow I left out sOs' Hot6 Cup and 2015 MSI Masters Gaming Arena championships - I would rank them both the same as a regular IEM/Dreamhack for this purpose (although arguably Hot6 Cup should be ranked higher). That would put sOs even further ahead.
This point system seems promising. Way more valid than the BS ranking of author of this poor article. But personally I would count 2nd place with 350 - 400 points at least. For me 2nd place at GSL is much bigger achievment than winning a DreamHack or even WCS. Maybe try to ADD Zest, Classic, Maru, herO and Taeja to the list to see how valid this point system is and then adjust. Lets try to balance it out a little bit. Maybe even 500 points for 2nd place (GSL/Blizzcon only), 250 for RO4 (on GSL/Blizzcon only!). And then 300 points for 2nd place in Another tournament + 100 for RO4 in WCS, Kespa Cup, Dreamhack etc. This should value consistent players a little more fairly I believe
On March 23 2016 14:13 BlackZetsu wrote: Hey Guys,
I thought of another way to rank players other than simply assigning a number value to tournaments and adding them up. The idea is to create a separate dimension for each tier of accomplishment, then multiply the value of each dimension to create a volume of performance. So GSL and Blizzcon Championships would be one dimension, all other championships a second dimension, and then a third dimension for all accomplishments short of a championship. Here's what I got for the top 3 players. Feel free to adjust as you see fit:
Quick note on the GSL vs Blizzcon Debate. There were 12 GSL/SSL tournaments in HotS, but only 3 Blizzcons. So the odds of winning a GSL/SSL were much greater for a player than winning a Blizzcon due to the sheer lack of Blizzcons. If you weight Blizzcon equally with GSL in terms of pure difficulty, to account for the difference in probability, you should weight Blizzcon 4x higher than GSL. So unless you think Blizzcon is 4x easier than GSL, you should weight Blizzcon higher than GSL in points solely due to the lower probability of winning a Blizzcon. I chose 1500 for Blizzcon and 1000 for GSL kind of randomly, feel free to adjust and see what happens.
You should probably multiply 'Tier 3 Other Results' by x4 or x5. I'm glad you value DH:Winter and Katowice higher than other Dreamhacks/IEM's.
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Zest at the time was pretty much invincible vs swarmhost.
And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along.
by discounting events, finals, titles, blah blah and looking at pure ratings - determined solely by the skill of the opponent and where he stands in the hierarchy, it is incontrovertible:
inno #1
even without looking at the stats my gut feeling is that inno at his peak is the strongest ever but if you want the empirical evidence -
highest peak elo highest win rate over a huge number of games always playing in korea biggest and longest gap/period of domination at the top according to aligulac
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Lol. Those Starcraft-"fans", that never stop talking about the game needing "saving". How about not pretending the game is dying all the time?
I felt like I was dying watching endless drawn out games until the entire map resources ran dry and both players had a 10k/10k bank. Between the mass SH/corrupter/spore forests vs the mass tempest/archon/mothership army vs the mass ravens/viking/tank/missile turret army. Watching free auto-spawn units much better suited to other less skilled games was really turning me off from Starcraft for the first time ever.
Watching the series live on stream, and seeing soO (who was absolutely amazing w/ SH, as he was w/ seemingly all compositions) consciously forgo the greatest tool in the Z arsenal at the time was invigorating. Because of several very questionable decisions on soO's part, Zest was able to barely prevail (my clear takeaway was that even in defeat, soO was the superior player). But that series filled me w/ hope again that Z was still a viable race sans their terribly designed unit.
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Zest at the time was pretty much invincible vs swarmhost.
And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along.
until he reached a final... It could have been any protoss lol
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Zest at the time was pretty much invincible vs swarmhost.
And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along.
until he reached a final... It could have been any protoss lol
Nah. he lost to Dear at his absolute peak (how the fuck did he manage to lose to Jaedong) Zest when he was also at his best (although it wasn't his only peak) Classic (who at the time people discounted but now we can see how good he is and was) and Innovation twice in finals. I honestly think people over hype the idea that soO plays terribly in finals or can't win. He played well in all except the two finals against Innovation imo
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Zest at the time was pretty much invincible vs swarmhost.
And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along.
until he reached a final... It could have been any protoss lol
Nah. he lost to Dear at his absolute peak (how the fuck did he manage to lose to Jaedong) Zest when he was also at his best (although it wasn't his only peak) Classic (who at the time people discounted but now we can see how good he is and was) and Innovation twice in finals. I honestly think people over hype the idea that soO plays terribly in finals or can't win. He played well in all except the two finals against Innovation imo
He looked fucking dreadful at DH against Solar, after stomping the competition and playing in his best matchup. But yes, I agree that the GSL narrative has been overplayed
On March 23 2016 23:04 Orr wrote: Never forget when soO refused to make a single SH in all seven games of the GSL finals against Zest.
And saved HOTS in the process.
Zest at the time was pretty much invincible vs swarmhost.
And soO was never a swarmhost zerg, that style completely ignored all his strengths. He was a muta/corruptor ZvPer, and the best at it too. He beat everyone with it until Zest came along.
until he reached a final... It could have been any protoss lol
Nah. he lost to Dear at his absolute peak (how the fuck did he manage to lose to Jaedong) Zest when he was also at his best (although it wasn't his only peak) Classic (who at the time people discounted but now we can see how good he is and was) and Innovation twice in finals. I honestly think people over hype the idea that soO plays terribly in finals or can't win. He played well in all except the two finals against Innovation imo
Maybe you should rewatch his games on Yeonsu vs Zest, King Sejong vs Classic. I think he won only one macro game against those two (on Alterzim against Classic) and he choked on the last map of every series. In all his finals it looked like after a certain loss in the series he just lost confidence and all games from then on are pretty bad from him.
Here is an updated chart that shows the accomplishments of the top 3 players of HotS and suggested point values for each accomplishment. I've made the following corrections:
Added Hot6 Cup and MSI Gaming Masters championships for sOs Added IEM Gamescom championship and 2015 Proleague wins for Innovation Shifted WCS Season Finals to Tier 2 and increased its points from 500 to 750 (the only effect of this is to help Innovation's volume) Shifted Proleague wins to Tier 3 as a "non-championship" result (this gives everyone higher volume) Added a "Total Points" as a sum of all points as another means of comparison
The main difference between these players is Proleague wins, with sOs miles ahead of Innovation and Life. If Life and Innovation had played more in Proleague, they would likely have come out on top.
I've also weighted GSL to give the exact relative value you would need to rank sOs and Innovation equally in total points. This shows that unless you rank GSL 12.75% higher than Blizzcon, then sOs gets the nod as best player.
Feel free to copy this and submit your own charts with the point values you think are most appropriate for each accomplishment!
Again, why do you value first place that much more? I won't even argue about Blizzcon being still way too impactful on your list, but first place gsl ~1000 and second place 100? It makes very little sense to me.
On March 24 2016 14:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Again, why do you value first place that much more? I won't even argue about Blizzcon being still way too impactful on your list, but first place gsl ~1000 and second place 100? It makes very little sense to me.
Mainly because of lack of time and this is a first (now second) draft. I was hoping to start something that people could refine and post better charts with different viewpoints. I agree that a 2nd place GSL should count for a lot more than a 2nd place Redbull. Maybe 200 points for 2nd place GSL, 150 for WCS Season Finals, 100 points for everything else. That would give Innovation the lead in points under the current chart.
Ultimately the point of the game is to win, so winning a championship should always count for far more than just coming in 2nd. That's the same in any sport. Nobody gives much weight to 2nd places when considering the best teams or players in the history of any sport, otherwise the Buffalo Bills and pre-2004 Red Sox would be considered among the greatest teams in their sports ... but they're not.
On March 24 2016 14:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Again, why do you value first place that much more? I won't even argue about Blizzcon being still way too impactful on your list, but first place gsl ~1000 and second place 100? It makes very little sense to me.
Mainly because of lack of time and this is a first (now second) draft. I was hoping to start something that people could refine and post better charts with different viewpoints. I agree that a 2nd place GSL should count for a lot more than a 2nd place Redbull. Maybe 200 points for 2nd place GSL, 150 for WCS Season Finals, 100 points for everything else. That would give Innovation the lead in points under the current chart.
Ultimately the point of the game is to win, so winning a championship should always count for far more than just coming in 2nd. That's the same in any sport. Nobody gives much weight to 2nd places when considering the best teams or players in the history of any sport, otherwise the Buffalo Bills and pre-2004 Red Sox would be considered among the greatest teams in their sports ... but they're not.
I mean sure, first place should count for more, it really depends what "far more" means though. I could definitely see giving second place half the points for example. Your 200 points would basically mean that Fruitdealers one championship is worth more than soO's 4 times second place. I don't agree with that pov, even if in traditional sports it's mainly about the winner, that doesn't mean that they do it right ^^ I am also not quite sure if i like multiplying the different tiers tbh, just an example:
If we had proleagie still tier two sOs would only have 1398400000 points, the max points are highly dependant on where to put the actual tournaments for imo very little reason because the point value alone should be enough to balance it.
On March 24 2016 14:34 The_Red_Viper wrote: Again, why do you value first place that much more? I won't even argue about Blizzcon being still way too impactful on your list, but first place gsl ~1000 and second place 100? It makes very little sense to me.
Mainly because of lack of time and this is a first (now second) draft. I was hoping to start something that people could refine and post better charts with different viewpoints. I agree that a 2nd place GSL should count for a lot more than a 2nd place Redbull. Maybe 200 points for 2nd place GSL, 150 for WCS Season Finals, 100 points for everything else. That would give Innovation the lead in points under the current chart.
Ultimately the point of the game is to win, so winning a championship should always count for far more than just coming in 2nd. That's the same in any sport. Nobody gives much weight to 2nd places when considering the best teams or players in the history of any sport, otherwise the Buffalo Bills and pre-2004 Red Sox would be considered among the greatest teams in their sports ... but they're not.
I mean sure, first place should count for more, it really depends what "far more" means though. I could definitely see giving second place half the points for example. Your 200 points would basically mean that Fruitdealers one championship is worth more than soO's 4 times second place. I don't agree with that pov, even if in traditional sports it's mainly about the winner, that doesn't mean that they do it right ^^ I am also not quite sure if i like multiplying the different tiers tbh, just an example:
If we had proleagie still tier two sOs would only have 1398400000 points, the max points are highly dependant on where to put the actual tournaments for imo very little reason because the point value alone should be enough to balance it.
That's true. The point of volume is just offering another way to look at results. The idea is, to reflect whether a player does really well in just one thing (e.g., winning DreamHacks and IEMs) but not in other areas, such as individual leagues or Proleague. Another way of saying it is, volume shows the dimensions of the game in which the player excelled - kind of like that 5 pointed graph they show at the start of Proleague matches this season.
I initially put Proleague in Tier 2 because of its prestige, but ultimately decided that it is a non-championship result so it belonged in Tier 3. It's all a matter of judgment. We could create more dimensions with Proleague being its own dimension, Korean individual leagues being their own dimension, Blizzcon being its own dimension - but that would make Life the only player with results in every dimension ... unless you put WCS Season finals in the same dimension as Blizzcon, in which case Innovation would be the best multi-dimensional player ... oh the possibilities!
The amount of work you put into your own list is impressive BlackZetsu. But I don't really see the point of it, other than for your personal enjoyment. Since you built it around who you believed the top three players to already be, it's literally meaningless other than to further validate your existing belief.
My own rankings clearly differ from Stuchiu's. But his holistic approach (albeit unfortunately omitting Proleague role/results) is much more valid to me than a simple predetermination of who you believe to be the best. Supported by crafting a completely arbitrary series of values to validate your original position.
Thanks for everyone's feedback. I've made a chart that reflects what appears to be the consensus view:
1. There are 4 separate dimensions of Starcraft performance:
Individual Leagues World Championships Weekend Tournaments Proleague wins
2. Korean individual league championships deserve the most weight.
3. Each placement in a tournament deserves half as many points as the placement above it (e.g., 1st = 100, 2nd = 50, Ro4 = 25, etc)
This is the resulting chart:
I've shown results for "All Dimensions" (which takes into account everything), a volume without considering weekend tournaments (because that was where Innovation was weakest), and a straight sum of all points.
2 Conclusions:
1. Adding points shows that Innovation was the best player of Hots, driven mainly by his superb Korean individual league results. 2. Both "All Dimensions" and "Without Weekend Tournaments" volume show that sOs was the most well-rounded player in HotS, i.e., sOs was the best at doing well in all categories of tournaments. However, sOs's superior "Without Weekends" volume is explained by the fact that Innovation did not play in 2014 Proleague. If we assume Innovation had played in Proleague and picked up only 3 more wins, then Innovation would have the most volume in all categories excluding weekend tournaments. So perhaps the real conclusion is that Innovation either didn't travel to enough weekend tournaments, or just didn't perform well in them. But in all other respects, Innovation was the top player of HotS.
Note that I haven't had time to fill in the different types of Proleague wins - this would probably give the most help to sOs.
Edit: If we assume that Life had played in 3 years of Proleague (and this did not affect his other results - a major assumption) and gotten 17 wins each season for 51 total, then Life would move ahead of Innovation in All Dimensions, but still place 2nd in "Without Weekends" and 2nd in Total Points.
2nd Edit: You're probably saying, "Blizzcon shouldn't be worth 9,000 if GSL is 10,000 ... that's why sOs is so multi-dimensional" - ok, well just how low would you have to rank Blizzcon for Innovation to come out ahead in All Dimensions? 1550 - you would have to rank Blizzcon at just 15.5% the weight of a GSL Championship to put Innovation ahead in All Dimensions.
3rd Edit: Even that doesn't help! Lowering Blizzcon's weight means lowering the weight of Innovation's WCS Season Championship and his 2 Blizzcon Ro8's. So no matter how little weight you give to World Championships, sOs always comes out ahead in All Dimension volume. It's ok though Innovation fans, while sOs may be the "fattest" player across all dimensions, Innovation's Korean individual league success definitely makes him the tallest.
The multiplication makes no sense unless you standardize the points (which in itself becomes a very discussable task; which standardization? overall achievable points? average points of a bigger playersample? how to create that playersample before you create a ranking in a fair way?). Otherwise the categories in which you make less points suddenly become inherently more important. To give you a specific example, sOs who gets the most points from proleague already, i.e. one would say he is already more than well established in that category, could trade ~102 points from his already weakest category, individual leagues, for 10 more proleague points (= one extra win) and still come out equal overall. This completely defies the original purpose of the multiplicative model that you should be good in all categories and messes up the original point distribution. Proleague wins are worth much much more than the nominal 10 points. Weekend tournament wins are still worth more than the nominal value. Especially individual league points are worth much less than their nominal value.
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